The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[Xeno.of.athens]

Instead of focusing on me and my walk with GOD, I think it would be better that you seek GOD about this question. I'm sure He can give you an answer.

Well, it is you who are writing posts in here about what you think the bible really means while eschewing Traditions of "men". So, I think you ought to tell us what your sources are for these remarkable claims about everything. You've indicated that the Holy Spirit is leading you or is leading whoever you accept as source for the teachings that you present in your posts, so I am asking you to come forth with the authority to back up your claims.

 

[ARBITER01]

Well, it is you who are writing posts in here about what you think the bible really means while eschewing Traditions of "men". So, I think you ought to tell us what your sources are for these remarkable claims about everything. You've indicated that the Holy Spirit is leading you or is leading whoever you accept as source for the teachings that you present in your posts, so I am asking you to come forth with the authority to back up your claims.

It's not an argument.

Either you agree with the truth in my statement, or you can reject it and move on. Your choice. Either way, I don't have to do anything. Again, why not seek GOD on these questions?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Contemplating justification by the law after being sidetracked by legalistic teachers does not mean that these Galatians lost their salvation. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. No names are mentioned. No final sentence is pronounced. Paul's harsh words simply drive home the point that justification by the law and justification by faith are incompatible.

Again you’re ignoring the context. “You have been severed from Christ, YOU WHO ARE SEEKING TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW, you have fallen from grace. Those who were seeking to be justified by the law were severed from Christ and had fallen from grace. Just because Paul didn’t use your preferred wording doesn’t mean that they didn’t lose their salvation. THINK, IF PAUL TAUGHT THAT TRUE BELIEVERS COULDN’T LOSE THEIR SALVATION HE WOULD’VE NEVER SAID THAT THEY HAD BEEN SEVERED FROM CHRIST AND HAD FALLEN FROM GRACE BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE AN IMPOSSIBILITY.

 

[BNR32FAN]

IF this person was a genuine believer, how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died".

In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7). "Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". The word "psuche" is never translated as "spirit."

So you’re saying that James is literally saying that if the brother turns back he won’t PHYSICALLY DIE? Is that what James is saying here? Because I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not but every believer PHYSICALLY DIES. I noticed you didn’t mention Matthew 10:28 where Jesus specifically contrasts between a physical death and the death of the soul which only takes place in hell.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Again you’re ignoring the context. “You have been severed from Christ, YOU WHO ARE SEEKING TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW, you have fallen from grace. Those who were seeking to be justified by the law were severed from Christ and had fallen from grace. Just because Paul didn’t use your preferred wording doesn’t mean that they didn’t lose their salvation. THINK, IF PAUL TAUGHT THAT TRUE BELIEVERS COULDN’T LOSE THEIR SALVATION HE WOULD’VE NEVER SAID THAT THEY HAD BEEN SEVERED FROM CHRIST AND HAD FALLEN FROM GRACE BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE AN IMPOSSIBILITY.

this notion of once saved always saved is a fundamental error, Matthew 25:31-46 shows that.

 

[Danthemailman]

Again you’re ignoring the context. “You have been severed from Christ, YOU WHO ARE SEEKING TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW, you have fallen from grace. Those who were seeking to be justified by the law were severed from Christ and had fallen from grace. Just because Paul didn’t use your preferred wording doesn’t mean that they didn’t lose their salvation. THINK, IF PAUL TAUGHT THAT TRUE BELIEVERS COULDN’T LOSE THEIR SALVATION HE WOULD’VE NEVER SAID THAT THEY HAD BEEN SEVERED FROM CHRIST AND HAD FALLEN FROM GRACE BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE AN IMPOSSIBILITY.

I did not ignore the context. Especially not verse 10 - I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view [contrary to mine on the matter]; but the one who is disturbing you, whoever he is, will have to bear the penalty. (AMP) Paul would not have confidence in them if they "lost their salvation" and that specific term is found nowhere in the Bible. Again, Paul's harsh words simply drive home the point that justification by the law and justification by faith are incompatible. "You who are seeking to be justified by the law." Was this their final answer? Not according to Paul.

 

[Danthemailman]

So you’re saying that James is literally saying that if the brother turns back he won’t PHYSICALLY DIE? Is that what James is saying here? Because I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not but every believer PHYSICALLY DIES. I noticed you didn’t mention Matthew 10:28 where Jesus specifically contrasts between a physical death and the death of the soul which only takes place in hell.

Every believes physically dies but some physically die prematurely based on their actions. 1 Corinthians 11:29 - For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Paul knows that the judgment of God can take on the form of physical illness and even physical death. The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not spiritual death or soul sleep. (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4)

1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. Is this referring to physical death or spiritual death?

Some people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death (loss of salvation) but that does not seem to fit the context. 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

1 John 5:18 (AMPC) - We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him].

 

[Danthemailman]

this notion of once saved always saved is a fundamental error, Matthew 25:31-46 shows that.

The judgment of the sheep and goats has nothing to do with losing salvation. After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is based on good works. Yet scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance-based salvation, but salvation-based performance.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the sheep. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness of God by faith (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. So, it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works done as a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life.

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The parable of the sheep and goats has nothing to do with losing salvation.

It isn't a parable. It is a description of the last judgement that uses one simile.

 

[Danthemailman]

It isn't a parable. It is a description of the last judgement that uses one simile.

Thank you for pointing that out. I meant to say the "judgment" of the sheep and goats. It's fixed now.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Thank you for pointing that out. I meant to say the "judgment" of the sheep and goats. It's fixed now.

No, the sheep and goats are the simile, the description is of the nations and peoples of the world before the judgement of the King.

 

[Danthemailman]

No, the sheep and goats are the simile, the description is of the nations and peoples of the world before the judgement of the King.

I understand that. Now would you like to discuss the heart of the matter in Matthew 25:31-46? You seem more interested in simply telling me that I'm wrong. I'm more interested in reasoning through the scriptures together.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I understand that. Now would you like to discuss the heart of the matter in Matthew 25:31-46? You seem more interested in simply telling me that I'm wrong. I'm more interested in reasoning through the scriptures together.

Do you think that the text is unclear and hence in need of an explanation?

 

[Danthemailman]

Do you think that the text is unclear and hence in need of an explanation?

It's not unclear to me and neither are the multiple other verses that I cited in post #368. Those who misinterpret the text and teach salvation by works are in need of an explanation.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's not unclear to me and neither are the multiple other verses that I cited in post #368. Those who misinterpret the text and teach salvation by works are in need of an explanation.

The last judgement does not teach salvation by works or as an earned reward. However, it does teach that one's works matter at the last judgement.

 

[BNR32FAN]

this notion of once saved always saved is a fundamental error, Matthew 25:31-46 shows that.

I agree that OSAS is an error but I don’t think that Matthew 25:31-46 clearly indicates that the goats were true believers. They confessed that Jesus is Lord but in Romans 14 Paul said that everyone will do that on Judgement Day. So I think Matthew 25:31-46 is inconclusive to refute OSAS.

 

[Danthemailman]

The last judgement does not teach salvation by works or as an earned reward. However, it does teach that one's works matter at the last judgement.

One's good works (or lack of) reveal the condition of our hearts as goats or sheep.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

One's good works (or lack of) reveal the condition of our hearts as goats or sheep.

That seems rather obvious, though it isn't evil to be a goat nor is it good to be a sheep, they are but animals used in a simile. What is evil is to show no compassion to Christ in the poor and needy, and what is good is to show compassion and generosity to Christ in the poor and needy.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So, is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16)

James isn’t speaking about anyone in particular, he’s speaking about a specific type of Christian and it’s emphasized when he uses the term “turns him BACK”. This tells us exactly what kind of Christian James is referring to. Turning a false professor BACK doesn’t save him from anything, only turning a true born again believer BACK will save him. That’s why the passage cannot refer to false professors.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Now the Israelites (Jews) were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

The passage is about individuals, not nations because only the unbelieving Jews were cut off and blinded, not all Jews. Paul is writing to both Jews and Gentiles in Rome in that epistle. There were still Jews joining the church after Christ’s ministry and there always has been Jews converting to Christianity. Furthermore God isn’t going to cut off all Gentiles for being arrogant, He will only cut off the individuals who are arrogant. So the cutting off and grafting in isn’t about the nations, it’s about individuals within each nation.