The "God's Plan" Illusion

[OnceLostButNowFound]

And even if you don't follow them or know they are wrong, they don't go away.

If I was some top-level hacker, I would shut that forum down over and over again purely out of bitter spite. I couldn't take that place anymore, the massive egos those alpha male morons have. I had could write a book on how egotistical they are. Sadly, these are the dudes that get the women. The world is a backwards place. I'm not like them anyway, I don't constantly think about sex the way they do.

Yeah, sorry man, I don't believe the Adam and Eve thing and I never will. If you understood the science of Earth, you wouldn't either. What if someone is born deformed and/or unattractive? What about them? Do we get all the things in heaven that we failed to in life?

The world was "fallen" from the start. The world was never this amazing place where nothing could go wrong, it was always garbage. If Adam and Eve were real, there was already a murder with just 4 people, not a good start. Why did God create the world anyway? Just for "love"? A lot of us are given lives we never asked for, and now a lot of us have to go to hell because we don't believe in something we'll never see. That's absolutely stupid. We keep going back to this "God wants us to do this and take this path" when he knows beforehand that some people won't, given their upbringing and where they were born.

No, that stuff doesn't automatically act as proof of God. At least not all of it, as there is a scientific explanation for all of that, which can be tested and seen at any time. Granted, God creating the world overall is not the worst thing I've heard, but the world is not 6,000 years old. That's impossible. Am I gonna believe something that is logically proven and can be at any time? Or am I gonna believe what some ancient book says just because it's there? I asked this before, did God expect ALL humans to be believers? He should know that we all won't be like that, can't God see the future? Set up to fail.

"so God is completely justified to send us to Hell if we choose not to turn to Him." This is absolute trash. Look at some of the unfair and horrific lives some people have when they have done nothing to anyone. Can you blame them for not being Christians? Oh well, gotta send them to hell anyway! Christian logic. Another thing about Christianity is everything has to be about hell hell hell and hell. There's never any middle ground. Did someone with a heart of gold but was an atheist die? Then show him he's wrong instead of just blindly sending someone to hell forever.

I'll say it again, if God knows the future, he knows who will be followers and who won't. God already knows the ending, so he's creating people that are destined to go to hell if that's the case. Don't blame the explosive after you were the one who created it and lit the fuse.

I don't care what God's stance is on this, someone's orientation does not make the whole person. Doesn't God know this stuff beforehand? If someone is gay or bi, who cares? Who does it hurt? How does it affect you? There are more disgusting straight people out there than gay ones. There are plenty of gay people that live completely normal and healthy lives, why does it have to be a big deal? Aren't we supposed to not judge and love thy neighbor? I will not judge based on orientation.

A lot of people say that being gay is the product of Satan. How? Is Satan waving his magic wand and turning random people gay just for fun? I'd like an answer to that. Instead of turning people into his minions outright, he just... makes them gay? Doesn't make sense.

No one's good, huh? Whose fault is that? Even indirectly, God is still the overarching reason for everything; good and bad. We didn't create ourselves, we didn't ask for life, God did. He created everyone for unknown reasons because... he was bored I guess? A lot of you Christians have this do or die black-or-white views on life, and life is NOT black and white. It's easy to judge others when everything is going fine for you, or if someone thinks different than you.

Ooohhhh, it pains him... well he sure does a damn good job of not helping a lot of people out. Let me go back to the homosexual thing. There are gay people that have been mocked, ridiculed, ostracized and put down in more ways that I probably can't mention here. There's talking about them, and then there's being them. These are people that go through so much confusion, they beg to be normal, they just want to change, but can't. Oh yeah, now they gotta go to hell too just for that. Boy, your God sure does sound loving!

If God doesn't like homosexuality that much, then why doesn't he just remove it?! Does God's magic not work on sexual orientation? Why do homosexual people have to pray 20 times a day to maybe have it removed? Yeah, let's condemn someone just for that. If there's a slice of cheese on a sandwich that you don't like, you can just remove the slice and continue eating, you don't condemn the whole sandwich and set it on fire for all eternity. Or maybe you just eat it with the cheese anyway because it's not all that bad either way. See that? If us humans can look past someone's orientation/beliefs and see more to the person, then I'd like to think God can too.

I am already aware of myself, I know my flaws and I know I'm far from perfect, but my sense of logic and morality is still better than a lot of religious people out there. I don't hold up signs that say "God hates ___s" because that's absolutely ignorant. I have been pushed farther away from Christianity because of these replies. Mind you, I already believe in the existence and trials of Jesus, and I do actually love the guy, but I don't believe in God at the moment. And even if I did, I would still not be religious because of the non-logic and hypocrisy that people inject in the religion.

Yes. Yes. And sadly yes, if things don't add up. I don't believe things because "I should just believe, no excuse." If I see 1+1=400, I point that out, and that's what's going on here. The truth is, no one truly knows what God does with some believers or non-believers. Doesn't matter what that dusty outdated book says. God would be the only one who knows anyway.

I've seen plenty of "Unattractive people" find love and living fulfilling lives in the Lord. The only thing that makes a person truly unattractive is a negative attitude and an unwillingness to change. (Something I still struggle with, by the way)

And I agree. People who struggle with committing homosexual acts are treated unfairly and without grace instead of the love and help they need. Many of us fail to give the love God gave us. Those people are hell-bound as well and require repentance and Jesus' sacrifice to go to Heaven.

God also gave us freewill. If he just made us completely perfect and not choose to do the wrong thing, we'd never understand how gracious and merciful He is and how He heals us.

How did he handle Adam and Eve sinning? Yes, he kicked them out the garden, but he also clothed them and blessed them with a large family. How did he handle David committing adultery and murdering Bathsheba's husband? He took his infant child away from him, but also still made David part of the bloodline that led to Jesus.

God allows us to deal with the consequences of our actions, but is always reaching His hand out to us. And when we don't take it, we shouldn't be surprised when we fall further and further into sin.

Also, you keep using science as a benchmark for how everything is. Science was given to us by God to better understand the world, but it's also been used and treated like it's God Himself. Relatively speaking, the idea of the earth being billions of years old is a more recent idea created by a society that wants to push God away. And of course people would latch onto it, because that means we don't have to be held accountable for our actions.

And now look where we are. Polygamy is on the rise. We're only now finally deciding that drag queens and teaching of homosexuality and transgenderism don't belong in the classroom. When we reject God's law, we backslide and reap the consequences for it. This has been shown over and over again in the Bible through Israel's turning to idols and intermingling with cities and countries that practice worshipping deities like Ba'al and child sacrifice.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

I've seen plenty of "Unattractive people" find love and living fulfilling lives in the Lord. The only thing that makes a person truly unattractive is a negative attitude and an unwillingness to change. (Something I still struggle with, by the way)

And I agree. People who struggle with committing homosexual acts are treated unfairly and without grace instead of the love and help they need. Many of us fail to give the love God gave us. Those people are hell-bound as well and require repentance Jesus' sacrifice to go to Heaven.

God also gave us freewill. If he just made us completely perfect and not choose to do the wrong thing, we'd never understand how gracious and merciful He is and how He heals us.

How did he handle Adam and Eve sinning? Yes, he kicked them out the garden, but he also clothed them and blessed them with a large family. How did he handle David committing adultery and murdering Bathsheba's husband? He took his infant child away from him, but also still made David part of the bloodline that led to Jesus.

God allows us to deal with the consequences of our actions, but is always reaching His hand out to us. And when we don't take it, we shouldn't be surprised when we fall further and further into sin.

Also, you keep using science as a benchmark for how everything is. Science was given to us by God to better understand the world, but it's also been used and treated like it's God Himself. Relatively speaking, the idea of the earth being billions of years old is a more recent idea created by a society that wants to push God away. And of course people would latch onto it, because that means we don't have to be held accountable for our actions.

And now look where we are. Polygamy is on the rise. We're only now finally deciding that drag queens and teaching of homosexuality and transgenderism don't belong in the classroom. When we reject God's law, we backslide and reap the consequences for it. This has been shown over and over again in the Bible through Israel's turning to idols and intermingling with cities and countries that practice worshipping deities like Ba'al and child sacrifice.

Just to add, Guess who was created perfect and was against GOD, this being is the reason all is wrong today not GOD.
good post, thanks.

 

[Cerraco]

I've seen plenty of "Unattractive people" find love and living fulfilling lives in the Lord. The only thing that makes a person truly unattractive is a negative attitude and an unwillingness to change. (Something I still struggle with, by the way)

In some ways, finding love can be unattainable. Someone who is deformed, a burn victim, etc. Not to say people like that with wives/husbands don't exist, but it still makes thing much more difficult. Sometimes it's about finding the right person at the right time with blind luck.

And I agree. People who struggle with committing homosexual acts are treated unfairly and without grace instead of the love and help they need. Many of us fail to give the love God gave us. Those people are hell-bound as well and require repentance and Jesus' sacrifice to go to Heaven.

This is absolutely infuriating, I would say much, much, much worse if this forum allowed extreme profanity. Yes, hell-bound. Straight to hell, man. That just rolls right off the tongue for a lot of you religious types. Something I find interesting is a Christian can say, "Well we don't know for sure, we don't know what God's thinking since his thoughts are far above ours" but then switch to these definite answers like people are God's secretary or something.

If nasty Christians go to heaven and gay people that haven't hurt anyone are """"""hell-bound"""""", then God must've overdosed on his idiot pills, because that doesn't sound so fair and loving. That means gay people are being sent to eternal torment over something that wasn't their fault. Some of these people prayed for decades to change but nothing happened. Why? Because God heals people whenever he feels like it. That's like being hit with a dangerous, contagious sickness that could be cured very easily, but no one feels like helping you, so they just burn you alive.

Look how many of my points and questions have been untouched, because a lot of you guys have absolutely nothing to say about it, you can't answer them. You believe in something because some of you were raised that way, or the Bible just aligns with your way of thinking therefore it's true because someone wrote it. This is a book written by imperfect humans and has been re-edited and translated an insane amount of times. There is no way to prove some words 100% true and a lot of that stuff has been proven objectively wrong. Beliefs are not automatically true.

God also gave us freewill. If he just made us completely perfect and not choose to do the wrong thing, we'd never understand how gracious and merciful He is and how He heals us.

This stuff is easy to say when you have a good home with a wife and three kids. Try living one of the worst lives imaginable, like being sold into slavery or something. Go tell those people how gracious God is and see how much they care for those words. Tell this stuff to someone who never had a chance at happiness, then tell them that they need to believe, or they go to hell, so they get to suffer in life and in death too. That'll really drive home the point on how awesome your God is. Tell this to someone who has a type of disability where they can't enjoy one single thing about life, and are angry over existing when not existing was the better option. Guess that's just "God's plan" eh?

How did he handle Adam and Eve sinning? Yes, he kicked them out the garden, but he also clothed them and blessed them with a large family. How did he handle David committing adultery and murdering Bathsheba's husband? He took his infant child away from him, but also still made David part of the bloodline that led to Jesus.

Let me ask one of the questions I've asked a LOT of times now. Does God know the future? Answer that. If yes, he knew the events beforehand but still set it up that way.

God allows us to deal with the consequences of our actions, but is always reaching His hand out to us. And when we don't take it, we shouldn't be surprised when we fall further and further into sin.

Not everyone gets the chance to... take his hand.

Also, you keep using science as a benchmark for how everything is. Science was given to us by God to better understand the world, but it's also been used and treated like it's God Himself. Relatively speaking, the idea of the earth being billions of years old is a more recent idea created by a society that wants to push God away. And of course people would latch onto it, because that means we don't have to be held accountable for our actions.

It's a bit more than just a "benchmark". Science does not disprove God, but it does disprove these wacky fairy-tale biblical origin stories. Let's look at this line here: "Relatively speaking, the idea of the earth being billions of years old is a more recent idea created by a society that wants to push God away." Amazing. Yeah, no. This isn't about pushing God away, it's about how logic works and simply proving something true. We have remains of archaic humans, we can test the age of things and how they evolve at any time, we found civilizations that existed long before 6000 years, the proof is beyond overwhelming. What should I believe? Something that can prove something at any time, or... an old book saying something? Hmmmm.

In past centuries, people thought headaches were the devil getting your head, and that was proven wrong. People once thought a sneeze was the devil shooting out of your nose. BzzzZZTT!!! Wrong again, that is a membrane in your nose reacting. See how easy it is to just go "God did it!" or "The devil did it!" when you don't know how something works? An unknown does not always equal God, it just equals an unknown.

And now look where we are. Polygamy is on the rise. We're only now finally deciding that drag queens and teaching of homosexuality and transgenderism don't belong in the classroom. When we reject God's law, we backslide and reap the consequences for it. This has been shown over and over again in the Bible through Israel's turning to idols and intermingling with cities and countries that practice worshipping deities like Ba'al and child sacrifice.

Doesn't the Bible mention something about how to pimp out your sister? Doesn't it mention that a woman has to marry the man who raped her? I'm sure there's more to those verses I'm not seeing. Here's another point I brought up many times, 100% of humanity is not gonna be believers, and God should know this when he creates people with all these different personalities and backgrounds, so why does he get to be upset when someone isn't a Christian? That leads back to the 'set up to fail' argument. He already knew, but it upset when someone isn't how he wants them to be, but he already knew. That is a paradoxical failure.

Edit: Another point I keep seeing is "when we stray away from god this happens and the world is like this and this..." God created this world knowing the future. Not us.

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

In some ways, finding love can be unattainable. Someone who is deformed, a burn victim, etc. Not to say people like that with wives/husbands don't exist, but it still makes thing much more difficult. Sometimes it's about finding the right person at the right time with blind luck.

No suck thing as luck. Only God. Some people do remain single despite everything they do. I personally don't feel great about being single, but there's no good reason to be doom and gloom over it when God is there to love and comfort me.

This is absolutely infuriating, I would say much, much, much worse if this forum allowed extreme profanity. Yes, hell-bound. Straight to hell, man. That just rolls right off the tongue for a lot of you religious types. Something I find interesting is a Christian can say, "Well we don't know for sure, we don't know what God's thinking since his thoughts are far above ours" but then switch to these definite answers like people are God's secretary or something.

Jesus is very clear on how you're supposed to go to Heaven. He's spelled it out in all the gospels.

If nasty Christians go to heaven and gay people that haven't hurt anyone are """"""hell-bound"""""", then God must've overdosed on his idiot pills, because that doesn't sound so fair and loving. That means gay people are being sent to eternal torment over something that wasn't their fault. Some of these people prayed for decades to change but nothing happened. Why? Because God heals people whenever he feels like it. That's like being hit with a dangerous, contagious sickness that could be cured very easily, but no one feels like helping you, so they just burn you alive.

They aren't going to hell because they're gay, they're going to hell because they didn't repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. A person can do all sorts of horrible things up to the end of their life, but if they sincerely repent and give themselves over to Christ, they get to go to Heaven. Jesus already paid for our sins on that cross. All we have to do is accept Him and do our best to be like Him, even though we can never be Him. A saved person can struggle with sexual sin all his life, but by leaning and depending on Jesus, he is saved.

And again, there's no such thing as a homosexual person. That sort of thing happens because that person was groomed, watched pornography, or grew up in an area that tolerates or accepts that behavior. While it isn't someone's fault what happened to them as a child, as adults, it's their responsibility not to sin in that way. And even if they do, they can repent and rest in the fact that Jesus forgives them and will help them.

Look how many of my points and questions have been untouched, because a lot of you guys have absolutely nothing to say about it, you can't answer them. You believe in something because some of you were raised that way, or the Bible just aligns with your way of thinking therefore it's true because someone wrote it. This is a book written by imperfect humans and has been re-edited and translated an insane amount of times. There is no way to prove some words 100% true and a lot of that stuff has been proven objectively wrong. Beliefs are not automatically true.

The Bible is God-breathed. Those who wrote it were inspired and directed by God. We don't understand absolutely everything about it, but the overwhelming amount of evidence of Jesus not only existing, but also eye-witness accounts of swarms of people saying that He came back to life, as well as the fact that the Bible, despite being an "old book" is still as relevant today as it was back then is more than enough proof of the its inerrancy.

And I've only been saved for a little over two years now. I used to despise God as a child and blamed Him for everything as well. And yet, He still gave me mercy and brought me to Him.

This stuff is easy to say when you have a good home with a wife and three kids. Try living one of the worst lives imaginable, like being sold into slavery or something. Go tell those people how gracious God is and see how much they care for those words. Tell this stuff to someone who never had a chance at happiness, then tell them that they need to believe, or they go to hell, so they get to suffer in life and in death too. That'll really drive home the point on how awesome your God is. Tell this to someone who has a type of disability where they can't enjoy one single thing about life, and are angry over existing when not existing was the better option. Guess that's just "God's plan" eh?

God knows their pain. Time and time again throughout the Bible, we have people who went through extreme hardship. Joesph was sold into slavery by his brothers, sent to prison because he was wrongly accused of sleeping with Potiphar's wife, and spent years and years waiting to be freed right after telling the Pharoh's servants of his vision. He endured a lot of pain and perhaps moments of unbelief. But then, he was taken out of prison and made the Pharoh's righthand man.

The entire book of Job details a man who lost everything, only to be given twice as much back.

David was hunted for years by a jealous king, only to be saved by God and made King himself.

Gomer cheated on Hosea several times and went back into slavery and prostitution, only for Hosea to come back and treat her with love and grace. A picture of Israel's relationship with God.

A thief was crucified alongside Jesus and begged Him for salvation. And he got it.

Jesus Himself was born in a manger filled with smelly animals. And throughout His ministry was reviled by many. He had rocks thrown at him, He was spat upon, people said He had a demon, He was betrayed by two of His loyal disciples, He was beaten, flogged, mocked and hung on a cross with a sign that said "King of the Jews", and He died one of the most painful deaths imaginable for the sake of not just believers like us, but for EVERYONE.

So if anyone knows anything about suffering, it's God.

And why wouldn't you tell someone who hasn't experienced happiness or experienced nothing but misery about Jesus? If they accept Him and go to Heaven, they'll achieve the happiness they're searching for. Same with the handicapped man. If he chooses to be angry over his life, that's not God's fault.

Let me ask one of the questions I've asked a LOT of times now. Does God know the future? Answer that. If yes, he knew the events beforehand but still set it up that way.

Not everyone gets the chance to... take his hand.

Yes He does. But again, He gave us free will. He knew the choices we'd make. He isn't surprised at how things have ultimately turned out. At the same time though, He's ultimately in control and allows us to make the bad decisions we make. And even then, His plan never failed. Jesus was born and died for our sins despite us going against His plan and will. That's proof of His sovereignty.

God is also merciful toward people who aren't able to comprehend Him or why we need a savior. Like small children or the mentally handicapped. Everyone else on some level knows deep down that God exists. Why else would you come here and ask these questions? It's clear God's calling you to Him and wants to save you. And I honestly hope you accept the call, because you remind me way too much of myself.

It's a bit more than just a "benchmark". Science does not disprove God, but it does disprove these wacky fairy-tale biblical origin stories. Let's look at this line here: "Relatively speaking, the idea of the earth being billions of years old is a more recent idea created by a society that wants to push God away." Amazing. Yeah, no. This isn't about pushing God away, it's about how logic works and simply proving something true. We have remains of archaic humans, we can test the age of things and how they evolve at any time, we found civilizations that existed long before 6000 years, the proof is beyond overwhelming. What should I believe? Something that can prove something at any time, or... an old book saying something? Hmmmm.

I suggest watching Answers in Genesis on Youtube. They disprove a lot of what the Science community hold as gospel and can explain things far better than I can.

In past centuries, people thought headaches were the devil getting your head, and that was proven wrong. People once thought a sneeze was the devil shooting out of your nose. BzzzZZTT!!! Wrong again, that is a membrane in your nose reacting. See how easy it is to just go "God did it!" or "The devil did it!" when you don't know how something works? An unknown does not always equal God, it just equals an unknown.

People nowadays believe you can be born as the wrong sex. And that's been backed by "scientists" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Science isn't something that's constantly evolving. It's something run by people who simply pick up where the last generation left off, and they can use that knowledge in whatever way they wish, even if it means lying and making us ignorant of our past.

None of what you mentioned disproves the Bible.

Doesn't the Bible mention something about how to pimp out your sister? Doesn't it mention that a woman has to marry the man who raped her? I'm sure there's more to those verses I'm not seeing. Here's another point I brought up many times, 100% of humanity is not gonna be believers, and God should know this when he creates people with all these different personalities and backgrounds, so why does he get to be upset when someone isn't a Christian? That leads back to the 'set up to fail' argument. He already knew, but it upset when someone isn't how he wants them to be, but he already knew. That is a paradoxical failure.

Nope. The Bible doesn't say any of that. You're looking at those verses in a modern day lens and I assume you think it's about pimping and forcing a raped woman to marry a rapist because someone else said it. Read those verses, study them, learn about the context of when they were written.

And it's true. Not everyone is going to be a believer, and God knows that. He wants to save everyone, but He also respects our free will. Many of us will end up going to Hell, but that isn't His fault. That is the result of our sin nature inherited by Adam, who, alongside Eve, disobeyed God. He gave Adam clear instructions, and He chose not to obey. So if you have anyone to blame, blame Adam. Not the one who created him.

I just want you to know, I hold nothing against you. I'm not offended by the things and questions you ask, in fact asking these sorts of questions is helpful in getting you to understand not just where we're coming from, but hopefully why everything is the way it is, as well as why God loves you and wants you to come home.

He's not angry or offended at you for being skeptical. He understands everything you're going through. He loves you.

 

[Cerraco]

No such thing as luck. Only God. Some people do remain single despite everything they do. I personally don't feel great about being single, but there's no good reason to be doom and gloom over it when God is there to love and comfort me.

"No such thing as luck."? What planet do you get this logic from? I'm also not a fan of being single, but granted, I'd rather a woman be with a better man that could give her more than me. I'm an inferior good, so why would a woman choose the D+ when they can have an A+ for the same price? Also, single = freedom.

Jesus is very clear on how you're supposed to go to Heaven. He's spelled it out in all the gospels.

And I'm sure all 7 people will enjoy heaven when they get there. There is still always more going on than what these scriptures say.

They aren't going to hell because they're gay, they're going to hell because they didn't repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. A person can do all sorts of horrible things up to the end of their life, but if they sincerely repent and give themselves over to Christ, they get to go to Heaven. Jesus already paid for our sins on that cross. All we have to do is accept Him and do our best to be like Him, even though we can never be Him. A saved person can struggle with sexual sin all his life, but by leaning and depending on Jesus, he is saved.

Ooohhhhhh I see, so they're still going to hell just for that. Got it. Are you able to take a step back and understand how ridiculous that sounds? Good god this is awful. So let me get this straight, some people end up being gay, so they're supposed to "repent" and "go with Christ" even though God is particular on who he helps and when he does it. These heaven requirements are absolutely stupid, and I don't think anyone here can understand why.

And if you repent and give yourself to Christ and by chance, you don't change? Straight to hell, I guess. Let me repeat myself, someone being gay does not make the person! It is one part of the person. If us humans see more to a person than their orientation, why can't this """loving""" God. It does not make them a bad person, whether God likes it or not. Some gay people have done amazing things, become excellent parents and really help some people out of some bad times, but it doesn't matter. Straight to hell, man! I can feel my IQ lowering just having to address this garbage.

You hear that homosexuals? It is your job to convert to Christianity to MAYBE have your orientation taken away. You better hope God removes it in time, because you'll suffer eternally for it. Is swearing allowed here? Please tell me it is. Religion is not something that works for everyone. This is what happens when you give people freewill and different personalities. If God didn't know that beforehand, he's a dunce.

And again, there's no such thing as a homosexual person. That sort of thing happens because that person was groomed, watched pornography, or grew up in an area that tolerates or accepts that behavior. While it isn't someone's fault what happened to them as a child, as adults, it's their responsibility not to sin in that way. And even if they do, they can repent and rest in the fact that Jesus forgives them and will help them.

Where do you get this information from? That is not always the origin story. Why is being gay such a massive deal? Why does it deserve eternal torment? What is with Christians having this ultra-chub for such horrible punishments? Do you set someone on fire because he does something you don't like? Do you sentence someone to life in jail for a minor crime? But no, God has to crank it up to 11 and make everything eternal and long-lasting over something that doesn't hurt anyone. A snobby straight person has a better chance of heaven than a nice gay person. Okay.

The Bible is God-breathed. Those who wrote it were inspired and directed by God. We don't understand absolutely everything about it, but the overwhelming amount of evidence of Jesus not only existing, but also eye-witness accounts of swarms of people saying that He came back to life, as well as the fact that the Bible, despite being an "old book" is still as relevant today as it was back then is more than enough proof of the its inerrancy.

I believe Jesus existed 100%, but a lot of the other stories are trash and have been proven wrong.

And I've only been saved for a little over two years now. I used to despise God as a child and blamed Him for everything as well. And yet, He still gave me mercy and brought me to Him.

God knows their pain. Time and time again throughout the Bible, we have people who went through extreme hardship. Joesph was sold into slavery by his brothers, sent to prison because he was wrongly accused of sleeping with Potiphar's wife, and spent years and years waiting to be freed right after telling the Pharoh's servants of his vision. He endured a lot of pain and perhaps moments of unbelief. But then, he was taken out of prison and made the Pharoh's righthand man.

Not everyone is gonna get that happy ending, not with the info you gave me.

The entire book of Job details a man who lost everything, only to be given twice as much back.

David was hunted for years by a jealous king, only to be saved by God and made King himself.

There are people who have suffered from start to finish, and believed in God from the start and got nothing.

And why wouldn't you tell someone who hasn't experienced happiness or experienced nothing but misery about Jesus? If they accept Him and go to Heaven, they'll achieve the happiness they're searching for. Same with the handicapped man. If he chooses to be angry over his life, that's not God's fault.

Again, you're viewing things in the black or white lens. There are people that have been in so much agony that it doesn't matter who God or Jesus are. But they're gonna have terrible lives and a terrible afterlife because they were just supposed to believe, bro!

Yes He does. But again, He gave us free will. He knew the choices we'd make. He isn't surprised at how things have ultimately turned out. At the same time though, He's ultimately in control and allows us to make the bad decisions we make. And even then, His plan never failed. Jesus was born and died for our sins despite us going against His plan and will. That's proof of His sovereignty.

No, the logic still dissolves. If he created Hitler, knew he was gonna do what he was gonna do, then he was destined to go to hell. If God knows the ending, then there's really no excuse there. You don't watch a movie expecting a different ending when you've already seen what it really is. No logic there.

People nowadays believe you can be born as the wrong sex. And that's been backed by "scientists" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Science isn't something that's constantly evolving. It's something run by people who simply pick up where the last generation left off, and they can use that knowledge in whatever way they wish, even if it means lying and making us ignorant of our past.

None of what you mentioned disproves the Bible.

Yes, science is evolving. We wouldn't have trippy AI we have now if it wasn't. You are choosing to believe what an ancient book says over something that can be tested and studies an infinite amount of times. How the sweet hell is the Bible winning that battle? Also, science is not always this evil thing that "pushes us away from God", it's just science. It's just logic. It's just studying the world around us. Science is what makes medications that have saved lives. Science is what evolved helpful technology. Are we supposed to live in a world where we throw all of that away where every single person is religious? That doesn't sound like a good world that makes progress.

The world is not 6000 years old. We didn't live alongside dinosaurs. There was no Adam and Eve. Please try me, please.

And it's true. Not everyone is going to be a believer, and God knows that. He wants to save everyone, but He also respects our free will. Many of us will end up going to Hell, but that isn't His fault. That is the result of our sin nature inherited by Adam, who, alongside Eve, disobeyed God. He gave Adam clear instructions, and He chose not to obey. So if you have anyone to blame, blame Adam. Not the one who created him.

There was no Adam. God wants to save everyone but knows he can't? Then... what's the point? Again, your logic isn't working here. By your logic, 90% of the world is going to hell, which doesn't sound like a setup created by a smart, loving God. Hey Adam, see that tree over there that I put close to you guys? Don't touch it. I already know what you're gonna do, but don't touch it.

"Blame Adam". Aaaaaaaaaaaand, who created Adam knowing the future..? They had talking snakes back then too, right?

I just want you to know, I hold nothing against you. I'm not offended by the things and questions you ask, in fact asking these sorts of questions is helpful in getting you to understand not just where we're coming from, but hopefully why everything is the way it is, as well as why God loves you and wants you to come home.

If I believed in God right now, it would never, ever be the one you described to me. Christianity has been used to fuel many horrible things (but are those people still going to heaven?), and it doesn't work with my personality anyway, and as you can tell by my posts, the logic doesn't come together. Religion is used by a lot of people to be this magical shield. I would sooner send a golden-hearted gay atheist to heaven than a terrible Christian person.

Edit: The "please try me" part was meant to be more facetious and less aggressive. Just pretend it sounded facetious in your head.

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

"No such thing as luck."? What planet do you get this logic from? I'm also not a fan of being single, but granted, I'd rather a woman be with a better man that could give her more than me. I'm an inferior good, so why would a woman choose the D+ when they can have an A+ for the same price? Also, single = freedom.

"Luck" is a concept created by people to explain away God's providence.

And I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself. I struggle that way too. But the truth is, God doesn't see you in that way. And if you want a woman to love you, you gotta not just love her the way God does, you need to be able to love yourself the way God loves you, even if you struggle with it from time to time.

“So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself.” Ephesians 5:28

When you accept Jesus, you become God's son. The son of a Father who loves you far more than you can ever know.

Ooohhhhhh I see, so they're still going to hell just for that. Got it. Are you able to take a step back and understand how ridiculous that sounds? Good god this is awful. So let me get this straight, some people end up being gay, so they're supposed to "repent" and "go with Christ" even though God is particular on who he helps and when he does it. These heaven requirements are absolutely stupid, and I don't think anyone here can understand why.

It's more than what we could ever ask for from Him. It's essentially the equivalent of somebody paying bond on your behalf so you don't go to jail, but far grander.

God is always there willing to help you. You just need to take the first step. Believe me, it isn't easy. Back when I first read John in the Bible, I felt nothing. But it took active commitment and older believers to help me understand who Jesus is and why what he did was so important. It's only when I started reading Genesis a half year later that I finally understood Him.

And if you repent and give yourself to Christ and by chance, you don't change? Straight to hell, I guess. Let me repeat myself, someone being gay does not make the person! It is one part of the person. If us humans see more to a person than their orientation, why can't this """loving""" God. It does not make them a bad person, whether God likes it or not. Some gay people have done amazing things, become excellent parents and really help some people out of some bad times, but it doesn't matter. Straight to hell, man! I can feel my IQ lowering just having to address this garbage.

True repentance does involve change. God instills you with the Holy Spirit upon receiving Christ. You have to be sincere about wanting Him though, even if you don't completely understand.

You're right that their sin doesn't define them. Jesus washes us all of our sins. Through Him, we don't have to carry that baggage anymore. Due to our sinful nature though, it's very tempting and easy to want to take the baggage back, but He is infinitely patient with us and is always willing to forgive us our sins.

And you're right again. A person doesn't go to Heaven just because they've done amazing things or helped people. We're saved by faith, not by our works, lest anyone should boast.

You hear that homosexuals? It is your job to convert to Christianity to MAYBE have your orientation taken away. You better hope God removes it in time, because you'll suffer eternally for it. Is swearing allowed here? Please tell me it is. Religion is not something that works for everyone. This is what happens when you give people freewill and different personalities. If God didn't know that beforehand, he's a dunce.

The temptation to commit homosexuality doesn't have to be gotten rid of before they go to Heaven. Many believers struggle with sexual sin all their lives, but will be made completely perfect when they die. God is merciful like that.

Where do you get this information from? That is not always the origin story. Why is being gay such a massive deal? Why does it deserve eternal torment? What is with Christians having this ultra-chub for such horrible punishments? Do you set someone on fire because he does something you don't like? Do you sentence someone to life in jail for a minor crime? But no, God has to crank it up to 11 and make everything eternal and long-lasting over something that doesn't hurt anyone. A snobby straight person has a better chance of heaven than a nice gay person. Okay.

It was revealed to me by God when I chose to stop consuming porn and masturbating. If homosexuality is something people are born with, then why did God create them? The answer? He didn't.

God made men and women for each other and *only* for each other. When Adam and Eve ate the apple, they became ashamed of their naked bodies, and we all inherited that shame. Hence why we all wear clothes. And Satan uses that shame to twist and warp people's perceptions of sexuality and tear men and women away from each other.

Besides, men can't make babies with each other. Neither can women with each other. That alone is proof that homosexuality is unnatural and outside of God's design.

Plus, God created everything. He's in charge. He can punish how He pleases. And only He can judge as well. Anybody else who tries to do His job for him is sinning. Hence why one of the commandments is to not murder.

I believe Jesus existed 100%, but a lot of the other stories are trash and have been proven wrong.

What is it exactly that you don't believe? Who do you say Jesus is?

Not everyone is gonna get that happy ending, not with the info you gave me.

Nope. But that's because of them. Not God. There is a point where many people's hearts become so hardened to God that even if they hear the good news, they'll be dead set against it. But that's why we spread the Gospel, so that we can help save as many people as we can.

There are people who have suffered from start to finish, and believed in God from the start and got nothing.

They got to go to Heaven, which is way better than here.

Again, you're viewing things in the black or white lens. There are people that have been in so much agony that it doesn't matter who God or Jesus are. But they're gonna have terrible lives and a terrible afterlife because they were just supposed to believe, bro!

God is very black and white about His commandments. And there is nothing that He can't heal.

And again, just because you had a terrible life, doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions. If that were the case, the courts would let someone who killed someone in your family go scot-free because they had a "terrible life".

No, the logic still dissolves. If he created Hitler, knew he was gonna do what he was gonna do, then he was destined to go to hell. If God knows the ending, then there's really no excuse there. You don't watch a movie expecting a different ending when you've already seen what it really is. No logic there.

Have you considered the possibility that Hitler may have repented and was saved? If Jesus reached out to Paul and used him to write almost half the New Testament despite having oppressed and slaughtered many Christians, then there's nothing stopping him from saving a repentant Hitler.

Yes, science is evolving. We wouldn't have trippy AI we have now if it wasn't. You are choosing to believe what an ancient book says over something that can be tested and studies an infinite amount of times. How the sweet hell is the Bible winning that battle? Also, science is not always this evil thing that "pushes us away from God", it's just science.

An ancient book that still holds true today. And has been proven true. Through *science*.

It's just logic.

God doesn't operate on our logic.

It's just studying the world around us. Science is what makes medications that have saved lives. Science is what evolved helpful technology. Are we supposed to live in a world where we throw all of that away where every single person is religious? That doesn't sound like a good world that makes progress.

No one said we had to throw all those medicines away. God used them to save lives. Science and God aren't mutually exclusive. Some of the most famous scientists in the world were devoted followers of Jesus. Issac Newton, the man who developed the laws of gravity was one.

The world is not 6000 years old. We didn't live alongside dinosaurs. There was no Adam and Eve. Please try me, please.

Look up Kent Hovind on Youtube. I recall one of his videos showing physical evidence that man did live along dinosaurs. Heck, we're still living among them today if the many many people claiming to see the Lochness Monster are anything to go by.

There was no Adam. God wants to save everyone but knows he can't? Then... what's the point? Again, your logic isn't working here. By your logic, 90% of the world is going to hell, which doesn't sound like a setup created by a smart, loving God. Hey Adam, see that tree over there that I put close to you guys? Don't touch it. I already know what you're gonna do, but don't touch it.

It's not that He can't. He *won't*. He won't violate our freewill.

He can wipe us all out if He wants. But He won't.

He can make us all mindless robots that follow His every whim. But He won't.

"Blame Adam". Aaaaaaaaaaaand, who created Adam knowing the future..? They had talking snakes back then too, right?

Just the one talking snake, but yes. God still gave Adam the choice though. I imagine He did have a different plan for Adam in case He did obey, but again, nothing surprises Him. He's God. Not a man like you or me.

If I believed in God right now, it would never, ever be the one you described to me. Christianity has been used to fuel many horrible things (but are those people still going to heaven?), and it doesn't work with my personality anyway, and as you can tell by my posts, the logic doesn't come together. Religion is used by a lot of people to be this magical shield. I would sooner send a golden-hearted gay atheist to heaven than a terrible Christian person.

Edit: The "please try me" part was meant to be more facetious and less aggressive. Just pretend it sounded facetious in your head.

Again, *no one* is good. No one has a golden heart. No one is pure. Only Jesus, the one who lived a sin-free life is good. He paid the ultimate sacrifice so that sinners like you and me can go to Heaven and be with our Father for all eternity.

And yes, there are plenty of Christians who have done terrible things in the name of God. God isn't pleased with those people either. Saying you're saved isn't enough, you also have to live a life that show how He's changed you. You'll never do it perfectly, but that's why Jesus died for us.

And don't worry, I'm not offended either way.

 

[Cerraco]

"Luck" is a concept created by people to explain away God's providence.

It's just another way to say that good or bad things happen to some people more than others. You can call it whatever you want.

And I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself. I struggle that way too. But the truth is, God doesn't see you in that way. And if you want a woman to love you, you gotta not just love her the way God does, you need to be able to love yourself the way God loves you, even if you struggle with it from time to time.

I can actually agree with this. Sort of.

When you accept Jesus, you become God's son. The son of a Father who loves you far more than you can ever know.

And this stuff is absolutely fine, this is the part of the religion that is perfectly okay by itself. But the "punishment punishment hell hell hell hell hell!!!!" stuff is not okay. Because it involves punishments that do not fit the damn crime, with some things not even being a crime, it's just a "well God don't like it so he punishes you for it, so uhhh yeah..." thing.

God is always there willing to help you. You just need to take the first step. Believe me, it isn't easy. Back when I first read John in the Bible, I felt nothing. But it took active commitment and older believers to help me understand who Jesus is and why what he did was so important. It's only when I started reading Genesis a half year later that I finally understood Him.

True repentance does involve change. God instills you with the Holy Spirit upon receiving Christ. You have to be sincere about wanting Him though, even if you don't completely understand.

And this stuff here is also fine, finding God is not the issue, it's how he deals with things according to this religion, and some old book that people like to keep basing reality and history on.

You're right that their sin doesn't define them. Jesus washes us all of our sins. Through Him, we don't have to carry that baggage anymore. Due to our sinful nature though, it's very tempting and easy to want to take the baggage back, but He is infinitely patient with us and is always willing to forgive us our sins.

And you're right again. A person doesn't go to Heaven just because they've done amazing things or helped people. We're saved by faith, not by our works, lest anyone should boast.

I understand the boasting part, but then what's all this stuff about not judging others and loving thy neighbor? It seems like those things don't count. When I see a gay person, I don't see someone who's "goInG to HeLL", I just see a person that happens to be gay.

The temptation to commit homosexuality doesn't have to be gotten rid of before they go to Heaven. Many believers struggle with sexual sin all their lives, but will be made completely perfect when they die. God is merciful like that.

So then what's all this "hell-bound" stuff? Even if a person isn't a Christian but is gay, is that alone really worth an eternity in never-ending agony? No. I don't give a damn what some Bible says, I can never think like that in a million years.

It was revealed to me by God when I chose to stop consuming porn and masturbating. If homosexuality is something people are born with, then why did God create them? The answer? He didn't.

You just said that God knows the future before it happens, so that means he knows who's gonna be gay and who won't right? Again, sin or not, it's not a big deal. Who the hell cares? How does it affect people? Does it make the world stop turning? Will fire rain down from the sky just because a man married a man? No. What's the worse that happens? Procreation happens a bit less? Oh the horror. If I was god I wouldn't give a damn. You know what? I welcome the LGBTQ community, mixes up the human race and makes it interesting. There seem to be more evil straight people than evil gay/bi people.

God made men and women for each other and *only* for each other. When Adam and Eve ate the apple, they became ashamed of their naked bodies, and we all inherited that shame. Hence why we all wear clothes. And Satan uses that shame to twist and warp people's perceptions of sexuality and tear men and women away from each other.

Yet God knew what Satan would do, but created him anyway. The logic is falling apart again. I'm sorry man, do you honestly believe this Adam and Eve/Earth is 6000 years old stuff..??

Besides, men can't make babies with each other. Neither can women with each other. That alone is proof that homosexuality is unnatural and outside of God's design.

It's unnatural and different, but not a massive deal that requires an eternal agonizing punishment.

Plus, God created everything. He's in charge. He can punish how He pleases. And only He can judge as well. Anybody else who tries to do His job for him is sinning. Hence why one of the commandments is to not murder.

God gave me freewill, and possibly my logic-based, straightforward personality. With the information I've been giving, I'm gonna think how I want, just as anyone else can.

What is it exactly that you don't believe? Who do you say Jesus is?

I don't say Jesus is anyone accept who he actually is. The only part I don't believe is the rising from the dead bit. Once things get all magical and weird, that's where my belief wanes away, because that is not the reality we were placed in. This is how atheism works, we know our reality, but why put our energy into something that can't be seen or proven? Surely God is a big enough 'person' to understand this line of thinking. I mean, he knew who were gonna be atheists even before they were born, right? Did that stop him from creating us? No.

Did God really expect 100% of humans to be Christians when he gave us freewill and birthed us with different backgrounds? Again, the logic doesn't work there.

Nope. But that's because of them. Not God. There is a point where many people's hearts become so hardened to God that even if they hear the good news, they'll be dead set against it. But that's why we spread the Gospel, so that we can help save as many people as we can.

The people who go against it don't always become bad people.

They got to go to Heaven, which is way better than here.

Then why do we have to go through this life on Earth crap? One day he just decided to make people because he was bored and wanted to share his love? It has been proven/discovered that we were cavemen first. Where was God on that one? Where did dead people go before Christ came? If Adam and Eve never touched that apple, we wouldn't know Jesus because Eve didn't screw up.

God is very black and white about His commandments. And there is nothing that He can't heal.

But is very particular on who he heals and when he does it.

And again, just because you had a terrible life, doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions. If that were the case, the courts would let someone who killed someone in your family go scot-free because they had a "terrible life".

That is nowhere near the logic I've been displaying. My scenarios don't cover people who hurt others because they were hurt first, I'm talking about people who had bad lives and become/remain atheists because of it. Is God sitting up there going, "Oohhhh, so close. He was doing good but once he stopped believing in me and massaging my massive ego, he sent himself to hell. Sux man."

Have you considered the possibility that Hitler may have repented and was saved? If Jesus reached out to Paul and used him to write almost half the New Testament despite having oppressed and slaughtered many Christians, then there's nothing stopping him from saving a repentant Hitler.

Does a Christian that's done unspeakable things but repented have a better chance at reaching heaven than an atheist that's done nothing wrong? If the answer yes, we have a problem.

An ancient book that still holds true today. And has been proven true. Through *science*.

Okay..? Not sure what you're getting at there, but science has punched a lot of those stories square in the face. Where is this ark? Where's the leviathan? Where's the behemoth?

No one said we had to throw all those medicines away. God used them to save lives. Science and God aren't mutually exclusive. Some of the most famous scientists in the world were devoted followers of Jesus. Issac Newton, the man who developed the laws of gravity was one.

You are absolutely right on the bolded and italics part of that quote. Science does not mean God doesn't exist, since that's something you can disprove. It just disproves many origin stories.

Look up Kent Hovind on Youtube. I recall one of his videos showing physical evidence that man did live along dinosaurs. Heck, we're still living among them today if the many many people claiming to see the Lochness Monster are anything to go by.

The Loch Ness monster is a myth until proven. The DNA tests, dating tests, fossil records would scream how that's not true. Also, we would be fish food if we lived near those things. Wouldn't they still be around then? Also, if the Earth was 6000 years old, the human population would be absolutely nowhere near what it is now. There's too much evidence against that: we have the Chicxulub impact event, we can study how evolution changes through X or Y amount of time, we've discovered archaic human remains, we have the Cambrian explosion. Why does our DNA match the primates so well out of any other animal?

God made the Earth, so why do all the centuries of tests and studies show that Earth is 4 billion years old? And please don't say that it's all some plot to get us farther from God. Science just proves what IS, it's not some anti-Christian thing.

He can wipe us all out if He wants. But He won't.

He already has, during that Noah's ark flood thing. Why won't he flood us anymore, since we're such a "fallen world"

Just the one talking snake, but yes. God still gave Adam the choice though. I imagine He did have a different plan for Adam in case He did obey, but again, nothing surprises Him. He's God. Not a man like you or me.

Yeah, he's not surprised because he knows things before they happen. Why would be surprised? Why have the damn tree there at all? Why not put it where it can't be reached?

Again, *no one* is good. No one has a golden heart. No one is pure. Only Jesus, the one who lived a sin-free life is good. He paid the ultimate sacrifice so that sinners like you and me can go to Heaven and be with our Father for all eternity.

I think you knew what I mean... be it gay, straight, bi, black, white, atheist or Christian, some people are just more morally sound than others.

And yes, there are plenty of Christians who have done terrible things in the name of God. God isn't pleased with those people either. Saying you're saved isn't enough, you also have to live a life that show how He's changed you. You'll never do it perfectly, but that's why Jesus died for us.

And don't worry, I'm not offended either way.

What if by chance, an atheist lives a life that's very well aligned with what God would want anyway? Does he still go to hell for simply not believing a God that no one can ever see or prove?

Edit: The Bible mentions Esau having a blessing stolen. How? Why? Was God such a dunce that he forgot who was who? Why did the blessing go to the wrong person? Why didn't God fix that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I... think I'll leave most of it. I've come up with plenty of counter-arguments and questions that you weren't able to explain or answer. There was a lot of skipped material and the most I've gotten is "that's just the rules, bro!" and "You should just believe no matter what!" And I've explained how those rules don't work in many, many ways. "That's just how it is!" doesn't automatically equal "This is right and makes perfect sense!"

You didn’t explain how the rules don’t work, you just made up a bunch of hypothetical situations that you don’t know how God is going to respond to, then made up you’re own assumptions about how He will respond to them based on a complete absence of knowing anything about Him. Your whole argument is based on people in hypothetical situations who are conjured up by your own imagination whom you’ve never met and you know absolutely nothing about then applying whatever fate best suits your desire to slander the very God who suffered and died on a cross for you. You’re trying to make excuses for your own unwillingness to humble yourself to Him based on your own imagination that is driven by your hatred for Him and by doing this you will have no excuse when you stand before Him. So just man up and take responsibility for your own actions instead of trying to blame God for them because you have no excuse.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It's just another way to say that good or bad things happen to some people more than others. You can call it whatever you want.

I can actually agree with this. Sort of.

And this stuff is absolutely fine, this is the part of the religion that is perfectly okay by itself. But the "punishment punishment hell hell hell hell hell!!!!" stuff is not okay. Because it involves punishments that do not fit the damn crime, with some things not even being a crime, it's just a "well God don't like it so he punishes you for it, so uhhh yeah..." thing.

And this stuff here is also fine, finding God is not the issue, it's how he deals with things according to this religion, and some old book that people like to keep basing reality and history on.

I understand the boasting part, but then what's all this stuff about not judging others and loving thy neighbor? It seems like those things don't count. When I see a gay person, I don't see someone who's "goInG to HeLL", I just see a person that happens to be gay.

So then what's all this "hell-bound" stuff? Even if a person isn't a Christian but is gay, is that alone really worth an eternity in never-ending agony? No. I don't give a damn what some Bible says, I can never think like that in a million years.

You just said that God knows the future before it happens, so that means he knows who's gonna be gay and who won't right? Again, sin or not, it's not a big deal. Who the hell cares? How does it affect people? Does it make the world stop turning? Will fire rain down from the sky just because a man married a man? No. What's the worse that happens? Procreation happens a bit less? Oh the horror. If I was god I wouldn't give a damn. You know what? I welcome the LGBTQ community, mixes up the human race and makes it interesting. There seem to be more evil straight people than evil gay/bi people.

Yet God knew what Satan would do, but created him anyway. The logic is falling apart again. I'm sorry man, do you honestly believe this Adam and Eve/Earth is 6000 years old stuff..??

It's unnatural and different, but not a massive deal that requires an eternal agonizing punishment.

God gave me freewill, and possibly my logic-based, straightforward personality. With the information I've been giving, I'm gonna think how I want, just as anyone else can.

I don't say Jesus is anyone accept who he actually is. The only part I don't believe is the rising from the dead bit. Once things get all magical and weird, that's where my belief wanes away, because that is not the reality we were placed in. This is how atheism works, we know our reality, but why put our energy into something that can't be seen or proven? Surely God is a big enough 'person' to understand this line of thinking. I mean, he knew who were gonna be atheists even before they were born, right? Did that stop him from creating us? No.

Did God really expect 100% of humans to be Christians when he gave us freewill and birthed us with different backgrounds? Again, the logic doesn't work there.

The people who go against it don't always become bad people.

Then why do we have to go through this life on Earth crap? One day he just decided to make people because he was bored and wanted to share his love? It has been proven/discovered that we were cavemen first. Where was God on that one? Where did dead people go before Christ came? If Adam and Eve never touched that apple, we wouldn't know Jesus because Eve didn't screw up.

But is very particular on who he heals and when he does it.

That is nowhere near the logic I've been displaying. My scenarios don't cover people who hurt others because they were hurt first, I'm talking about people who had bad lives and become/remain atheists because of it. Is God sitting up there going, "Oohhhh, so close. He was doing good but once he stopped believing in me and massaging my massive ego, he sent himself to hell. Sux man."

Does a Christian that's done unspeakable things but repented have a better chance at reaching heaven than an atheist that's done nothing wrong? If the answer yes, we have a problem.

Okay..? Not sure what you're getting at there, but science has punched a lot of those stories square in the face. Where is this ark? Where's the leviathan? Where's the behemoth?

You are absolutely right on the bolded and italics part of that quote. Science does not mean God doesn't exist, since that's something you can disprove. It just disproves many origin stories.

The Loch Ness monster is a myth until proven. The DNA tests, dating tests, fossil records would scream how that's not true. Also, we would be fish food if we lived near those things. Wouldn't they still be around then? Also, if the Earth was 6000 years old, the human population would be absolutely nowhere near what it is now. There's too much evidence against that: we have the Chicxulub impact event, we can study how evolution changes through X or Y amount of time, we've discovered archaic human remains, we have the Cambrian explosion. Why does our DNA match the primates so well out of any other animal?

God made the Earth, so why do all the centuries of tests and studies show that Earth is 4 billion years old? And please don't say that it's all some plot to get us farther from God. Science just proves what IS, it's not some anti-Christian thing.

He already has, during that Noah's ark flood thing. Why won't he flood us anymore, since we're such a "fallen world"

Yeah, he's not surprised because he knows things before they happen. Why would be surprised? Why have the damn tree there at all? Why not put it where it can't be reached?

I think you knew what I mean... be it gay, straight, bi, black, white, atheist or Christian, some people are just more morally sound than others.

What if by chance, an atheist lives a life that's very well aligned with what God would want anyway? Does he still go to hell for simply not believing a God that no one can ever see or prove?

Edit: The Bible mentions Esau having a blessing stolen. How? Why? Was God such a dunce that he forgot who was who? Why did the blessing go to the wrong person? Why didn't God fix that?

You really need to check out Christian Universal Redemption, it’s a view of God that believes that God loves his whole creation and this whole process that we go through called life is part of a plan that God has had from the beginning to have a creation that would love and choose him out of free will not because they had no other choice. God paid the price of our rebellion by dying on the cross and paying the penalty of all sin ever to be committed. We read scripture as the story of how God has worked and will work to redeem all his creation from everything that is not of him. If you follow him now in the mortal body, die to self and live for him, you spend all of eternity as part of his family in his kingdom. If you choose to live for self, you will die as all men do, but you must atone for what was done while in the mortal body either good or bad then once cleansed you are a subject of that kingdom that God is making. This whole heaven and eternal hell thing is a pagan belief that was brought to the Church many years ago but the truth has always been around but you have to search for it.

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

And this stuff is absolutely fine, this is the part of the religion that is perfectly okay by itself. But the "punishment punishment hell hell hell hell hell!!!!" stuff is not okay. Because it involves punishments that do not fit the damn crime, with some things not even being a crime, it's just a "well God don't like it so he punishes you for it, so uhhh yeah..." thing.

What makes you believe that you understand how crime and punishment works better than God? People throughout history have changed the definition of what's considered a crime and what isn't. Only God has remained consistent with the rules. We strayed from them.

And this stuff here is also fine, finding God is not the issue, it's how he deals with things according to this religion, and some old book that people like to keep basing reality and history on.

I understand the boasting part, but then what's all this stuff about not judging others and loving thy neighbor? It seems like those things don't count. When I see a gay person, I don't see someone who's "goInG to HeLL", I just see a person that happens to be gay.

There's "not judging" and then there's not addressing a very real problem that plagues communities. You don't need to attack your neighbor, but you do need to attack the sin. If you need an example of this sort of attitude, look at California.

So then what's all this "hell-bound" stuff? Even if a person isn't a Christian but is gay, is that alone really worth an eternity in never-ending agony? No. I don't give a damn what some Bible says, I can never think like that in a million years.

Homosexuality has caused untold amounts of damage to people. It's not as harmless a lifestyle as you think it is. Just look at Sodom and Gomorrah.

Will fire rain down from the sky just because a man married a man? No.

No, but God does allow these people to reap the consequences of their actions.

What's the worse that happens?

STD's, children being groomed, the destruction of the family unit, a desire to commit more heinous sexual acts. Sexual sin grows and festers and makes you want to commit more and more extreme and dangerous activities that harm yourself and others.

Procreation happens a bit less? Oh the horror. If I was god I wouldn't give a damn.

Praise be to God that He does care.

You know what? I welcome the LGBTQ community, mixes up the human race and makes it interesting. There seem to be more evil straight people than evil gay/bi people.

Yet God knew what Satan would do, but created him anyway. The logic is falling apart again. I'm sorry man, do you honestly believe this Adam and Eve/Earth is 6000 years old stuff..??

There was a time when I didn't. But I do now.

It's unnatural and different, but not a massive deal that requires an eternal agonizing punishment.

By admitting homosexuality is unnatural, you know deep down it's wrong. Why defend it then?

God gave me freewill, and possibly my logic-based, straightforward personality. With the information I've been giving, I'm gonna think how I want, just as anyone else can.

The logic you and I carry is extremely limited compared to that of God's. Man's insistence on believing his way is right is what led us to the point we're at now as a society. And you're welcome to think how you want. Just be prepared for the consequences.

I don't say Jesus is anyone accept who he actually is. The only part I don't believe is the rising from the dead bit. Once things get all magical and weird, that's where my belief wanes away, because that is not the reality we were placed in. This is how atheism works, we know our reality, but why put our energy into something that can't be seen or proven? Surely God is a big enough 'person' to understand this line of thinking. I mean, he knew who were gonna be atheists even before they were born, right? Did that stop him from creating us? No.

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" Hebrews 11:1

Then why do we have to go through this life on Earth crap? One day he just decided to make people because he was bored and wanted to share his love?

Why not? God can do as He pleases. And we get to enjoy the things He's created all around us.

It has been proven/discovered that we were cavemen first. Where was God on that one?

We also believed that the world was flat at one time. Scientists aren't infallible. For someone who doesn't believe in God, you place a lot of faith in these people.

Where did dead people go before Christ came?

Heaven. Until Jesus came though, we had to atone for our sins through animal sacrifices.

If Adam and Eve never touched that apple, we wouldn't know Jesus because Eve didn't screw up.

Your point?

That is nowhere near the logic I've been displaying. My scenarios don't cover people who hurt others because they were hurt first, I'm talking about people who had bad lives and become/remain atheists because of it. Is God sitting up there going, "Oohhhh, so close. He was doing good but once he stopped believing in me and massaging my massive ego, he sent himself to hell. Sux man."

Free will. By becoming an atheist, you are denying the existence of your Father.

Does a Christian that's done unspeakable things but repented have a better chance at reaching heaven than an atheist that's done nothing wrong? If the answer yes, we have a problem.

There is no "chance" involved. If a Christian repents and leans on Jesus, he is saved. And who do you say that the atheist hasn't done anything wrong? What is "wrong" by your definition? Have you ever told a lie in your life? Have you ever stolen anything? We've all done something wrong, and that is enough to send us to Hell. And Jesus paid the penalty for those wrongs. That's why we believe in Him.

Okay..? Not sure what you're getting at there, but science has punched a lot of those stories square in the face. Where is this ark? Where's the leviathan? Where's the behemoth?

I'll admit, I don't have the answer to all those questions. The people who I told you to look up should though.

You are absolutely right on the bolded and italics part of that quote. Science does not mean God doesn't exist, since that's something you can disprove. It just disproves many origin stories.

The Loch Ness monster is a myth until proven. The DNA tests, dating tests, fossil records would scream how that's not true. Also, we would be fish food if we lived near those things. Wouldn't they still be around then? Also, if the Earth was 6000 years old, the human population would be absolutely nowhere near what it is now. There's too much evidence against that: we have the Chicxulub impact event, we can study how evolution changes through X or Y amount of time, we've discovered archaic human remains, we have the Cambrian explosion. Why does our DNA match the primates so well out of any other animal?

God made the Earth, so why do all the centuries of tests and studies show that Earth is 4 billion years old? And please don't say that it's all some plot to get us farther from God. Science just proves what IS, it's not some anti-Christian thing.

Again, you are right. Science is not anti-Christian. But we have made it so.

And to answer your question about primates, that's because of God. Just because we share the same DNA doesn't mean we evolved from them.

He already has, during that Noah's ark flood thing. Why won't he flood us anymore, since we're such a "fallen world"

Not Noah or his family.

Yeah, he's not surprised because he knows things before they happen. Why would be surprised? Why have the damn tree there at all? Why not put it where it can't be reached?

Why not?

I think you knew what I mean... be it gay, straight, bi, black, white, atheist or Christian, some people are just more morally sound than others.

Still less than God though.

What if by chance, an atheist lives a life that's very well aligned with what God would want anyway? Does he still go to hell for simply not believing a God that no one can ever see or prove?

By not believing in God, he can't live a life that's aligned with God. Taking God out of the picture makes that impossible. That's like taking an engine out of a car. It won't work.

Edit: The Bible mentions Esau having a blessing stolen. How? Why? Was God such a dunce that he forgot who was who? Why did the blessing go to the wrong person? Why didn't God fix that?

That wasn't God, that was Issac being tricked by his other son. Again, God gives us free will to do as we please, but He ultimately turns every sin we commit against Him into good.

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

This whole heaven and eternal hell thing is a pagan belief that was brought to the Church many years ago but the truth has always been around but you have to search for it.

Why would you tell someone this? You are leading this guy and anyone who reads this astray.

The Bible is truth. Anything outside of it just leads to a road of damnation.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Why would you tell someone this? You are leading this guy and anyone who reads this astray.

The Bible is truth. Anything outside of it just leads to a road of damnation.

Because it is the truth, have ever looked into what the early church believed? Because what I wrote is straight out of scripture and this is what was taught till Augustine gained power and he did not speak Greek but used a bad Latin translation and he had all those who opposed him either shut up or killed. You really need to look into these things before condemning others who have and believe like the church believers did for the first couple of centuries.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You really need to check out Christian Universal Redemption, it’s a view of God that believes that God loves his whole creation and this whole process that we go through called life is part of a plan that God has had from the beginning to have a creation that would love and choose him out of free will not because they had no other choice. God paid the price of our rebellion by dying on the cross and paying the penalty of all sin ever to be committed. We read scripture as the story of how God has worked and will work to redeem all his creation from everything that is not of him. If you follow him now in the mortal body, die to self and live for him, you spend all of eternity as part of his family in his kingdom. If you choose to live for self, you will die as all men do, but you must atone for what was done while in the mortal body either good or bad then once cleansed you are a subject of that kingdom that God is making. This whole heaven and eternal hell thing is a pagan belief that was brought to the Church many years ago but the truth has always been around but you have to search for it.

The Bible only gives two possible fates for those who are thrown into the lake of fire. It’s either eternal torment or the death of the soul. There are no passages anywhere in scripture that say anything about those who are thrown into the lake of fire being saved or receiving eternal life.

 

[Cerraco]

You didn’t explain how the rules don’t work, you just made up a bunch of hypothetical situations that you don’t know how God is going to respond to, then made up you’re own assumptions about how He will respond to them based on a complete absence of knowing anything about Him. Your whole argument is based on people in hypothetical situations who are conjured up by your own imagination whom you’ve never met and you know absolutely nothing about then applying whatever fate best suits your desire to slander the very God who suffered and died on a cross for you. You’re trying to make excuses for your own unwillingness to humble yourself to Him based on your own imagination that is driven by your hatred for Him and by doing this you will have no excuse when you stand before Him. So just man up and take responsibility for your own actions instead of trying to blame God for them because you have no excuse.

Were my hypothetical situations that far from reality? If I used real ones, would I convince you better? I'm not knocking Jesus or his sacrifice, just the rules of who goes to hell. And even you said, "That's just the rules, man. That's just how it is." You were also unable to tackle many points I've made and just cherry-picked the ones that were easiest to answer. A lot of the time, people just ran to the Bible and threw quotes at me without really answering what was talked about. We keep praising the Bible as this perfect rule book when I've been finding these massive holes in it - in the origin stories at least.

I also love how we go back to that "there is no excuse" thing. How's this conversation gonna go when I'm in front of God?
- God, "You've been saying some nasty things about my Bible, about me, and I don't think I like it!"
- Me, "I went by logic and science, I went by what could be proven and wh-"
- God, "NOPE! You were supposed to ignore all logic and just make yourself believe the Bible and me. Straight to hell."

That's what I get for believing that archaic human remains existed instead of Adam and Eve. I guess some prankster just buried some bones around the world. Sorry guys, silly me. God still birthed people that never asked for life.

What makes you believe that you understand how crime and punishment works better than God? People throughout history have changed the definition of what's considered a crime and what isn't. Only God has remained consistent with the rules. We strayed from them.

You said gay people were hell-bound, and then you said God was merciful and could remove it. Which one is it?

There's "not judging" and then there's not addressing a very real problem that plagues communities. You don't need to attack your neighbor, but you do need to attack the sin. If you need an example of this sort of attitude, look at California.

Homosexuality has caused untold amounts of damage to people. It's not as harmless a lifestyle as you think it is. Just look at Sodom and Gomorrah.

You know, I just might believe the Sodom and Gomorrah thing, almost. Seeing as they found balls of sulfur or whatever where those cities were. But see, that's physical evidence that is just there, it can be seen, and that provides more proof than just... here's a story of this book. Back to the homosexuality-causing-untold-damage part. Yes, that's happened, but straight people have also done their share of horrors as well. That's not always the fault of orientation, but a fault of the person.

Gay people can still live completely standard lives without causing problems, and that's not worth sending someone to hell forever. For some people, being gay/bi/trans/whatever is confusion, or it just might be something that fits with them, it's a very mixed bag. I agree, it can be harmful, but that doesn't always fall on that orientation itself.

STD's, children being groomed, the destruction of the family unit, a desire to commit more heinous sexual acts. Sexual sin grows and festers and makes you want to commit more and more extreme and dangerous activities that harm yourself and others.

Again, these sound like things people in general cause, without the focus being the orientation. Straight people can do this just as well. What makes it worse is that people are more attracted to these sex fiends than virgins, because it's all about "experience".

There was a time when I didn't. But I do now.

If I explained every single detail on how Adam and Eve weren't possible, this forum would crash from the amount of text I typed. The internet itself could not handle it.

By admitting homosexuality is unnatural, you know deep down it's wrong. Why defend it then?

Dude, no. When I say unnatural, I just mean it deviates from the common standard, I didn't say anything about it being "wrong". I'm defending it because I will eternally see just a person, not some devil-infected person that's going straight to hell.

The logic you and I carry is extremely limited compared to that of God's. Man's insistence on believing his way is right is what led us to the point we're at now as a society. And you're welcome to think how you want. Just be prepared for the consequences.

"Yeah man, be prepared for the consequences for being a logical thinker and properly putting 2 and 2 together." Would the world be better if 100% of humans were Christians and didn't rely on science for any logic whatsoever? That would be a trash world, because everyone would just go, "God did this. God did that. Let's wait for God to make this problem go away!" Instead, we live in technologically-advanced world where we can solve problems and figure out how the world works ourselves. And all the scientific research screams loudly that there is no damn Adam and Eve, man.

Science doesn't exist because people are rubbing their hands together and loudly muhahahaha-ing to themselves because they just wanna bring down God. No, it just makes sense of things, it tells us what IS. And God knew beforehand that everyone was gonna be how they are so... again, he set this up himself. We didn't create ourselves.

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" Hebrews 11:1

This can be a problematic way of thinking. Faith can leave you waiting for things that you could eternally never get. This is why we do things ourselves instead of relying on some deity to help us whenever he damn well feels like it. You said it yourself, God gave us science, so then he can't really be upset when people look to science for logic and... not the Bible..?

Why not? God can do as He pleases. And we get to enjoy the things He's created all around us.

Of course God can do as he pleases... he's God. That goes without saying. If I was God, I could do whatever I wanted and decide that I'm always right as well.

We also believed that the world was flat at one time. Scientists aren't infallible. For someone who doesn't believe in God, you place a lot of faith in these people.

Could you blame us? We didn't have planes, we couldn't fly around the world. Damn right I put a lot of faith in these people, now if this was 1300 AD or 1850 AD, maybe not, but we've evolved to where we can find things with near pinpoint accuracy, or at least just decent accuracy. Again, who's winning the battle of logic here? Something that can be tested and proven at absolutely any time over and over? Or... a book that says something? Not a difficult choice there.

I'm not saying the Bible is 100% wrong, as it did shape Western civilization, and I agree with quite a lot that is in there, but it is still just a book written by humans, and was edited and translated a ton of times. The Bible can't study the workings of an atom, the Bible can't see the patterns in evolution and DNA, the Bible did not give us life-saving technologies and medicines. Science did that.

Heaven. Until Jesus came though, we had to atone for our sins through animal sacrifices.

Okay..?

Your point?

My point is that Jesus is - to say the least - a big deal, an important person. We would never know this important person if Eve didn't screw up. Humans were destined to be how they are now, because if Adam and Eve never touched that tree, someone would have. Imagine all these humans walking around and not one of them touches that tree. Not sure why God set it up that way but he did. And Satan took the form of a talking snake? Funny how these magical things all happened back then, but not so much now.

Free will. By becoming an atheist, you are denying the existence of your Father.

I see the world around me, that is the reality I know. I don't see this God guy, I never met him personally. One is proven to exist, one is said to exist. Any atheist will ask you, "Why should I put energy into believing something I cannot see or experience?" as that is self-deception.

There is no "chance" involved. If a Christian repents and leans on Jesus, he is saved. And who do you say that the atheist hasn't done anything wrong? What is "wrong" by your definition? Have you ever told a lie in your life? Have you ever stolen anything? We've all done something wrong, and that is enough to send us to Hell. And Jesus paid the penalty for those wrongs. That's why we believe in Him.

Aaaaaand again, God knew what everyone was gonna do beforehand, but that didn't stop him from creating us anyway.

I'll admit, I don't have the answer to all those questions. The people who I told you to look up should though.

It's almost like... the behemoth and leviathan never existed? Funny, science can find galaxies far far away, but we can't seem to find the remains of these biblical things. Hmmmm. What 'people' am I looking up? Are you talking about that Kent Hovind guy? I've seen his videos, and I'm not seeing much "proof" from this dude. Even he explains that the Earth is older than the Bible states, unless he's being sarcastic or something.

Again, you are right. Science is not anti-Christian. But we have made it so.

So... then... why are you saying science makes us stray from God? At least I think it was you that said that.

And to answer your question about primates, that's because of God. Just because we share the same DNA doesn't mean we evolved from them.

I mean, yeah, it kind of does. You say "That's because of God" and then you stop right there. What does that mean? God just made the DNA like that for fun? Did he want to trick us or something? Humans do not share this amount of DNA with anything else, our forms are very similar to primates, and we can study evolutionary trees, and it does not lead to any other type of animal except them.

Why not?

...I'm asking you. If there's a red button that blows up a building, I'm not gonna have it set up in the middle of a day care where a bunch of hyper kids could press it at any time. If I did that, that's on me, not the kids. I should have known better.

By not believing in God, he can't live a life that's aligned with God. Taking God out of the picture makes that impossible. That's like taking an engine out of a car. It won't work.

So atheists cannot live a fulfilling life then? Some already do. Seems like the car is still moving for them.

That wasn't God, that was Issac being tricked by his other son. Again, God gives us free will to do as we please, but He ultimately turns every sin we commit against Him into good.

Why didn't God just correct the mistake then? Doesn't God wrestle him and lose on purpose? What was Jacob's punishment besides getting a limp?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because it is the truth, have ever looked into what the early church believed? Because what I wrote is straight out of scripture and this is what was taught till Augustine gained power and he did not speak Greek but used a bad Latin translation and he had all those who opposed him either shut up or killed. You really need to look into these things before condemning others who have and believe like the church believers did for the first couple of centuries.

It’s not what the early church believed it’s what Origen believed. Very few people in the early church believed in universal reconciliation and most wrote in opposition to it.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The Bible only gives two possible fates for those who are thrown into the lake of fire. It’s either eternal torment or the death of the soul. There are no passages anywhere in scripture that say anything about those who are thrown into the lake of fire being saved or receiving eternal life.

Have you really studied what you are saying? Because you base your whole argument on one word Aion/Aionios this is the word translated as eternal in our English scriptures but the original Greek word means age for Aion and pertaining to the age for Aionios. So no to an eternal hell. That was from a bad Latin translation that Augustine used to silence all the Greek speakers, that’s where eternal comes from not God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It’s not what the early church believed it’s what Origen believed. Very few people in the early church believed in universal reconciliation and most wrote in opposition to it.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Have you really studied what you are saying? Because you base your whole argument on one word Aion/Aionios this is the word translated as eternal in our English scriptures but the original Greek word means age for Aion and pertaining to the age for Aionios. So no to an eternal hell. That was from a bad Latin translation that Augustine used to silence all the Greek speakers, that’s where eternal comes from not God.

No that’s not true, because the exact same word is used to describe God’s power, His glory, His reign, and the life we receive in Christ. How do you account for these uses of the word?

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

This can be a problematic way of thinking. Faith can leave you waiting for things that you could eternally never get. This is why we do things ourselves instead of relying on some deity to help us whenever he damn well feels like it. You said it yourself, God gave us science, so then he can't really be upset when people look to science for logic and... not the Bible..?

Faith doesn't involve sitting around being idle. Faith also involves action and making decisions as well as waiting when you know there's nothing else you can do.

You treat The Bible and Science like they're diametrically opposed to each other, when in reality, they're supposed to go hand in hand. You keep using this false dichotomy in your arguments and the way you talk tells me you aren't interested in learning about God and are just looking for a fight. So, I'm just going to stop here.

I pray that you'll see the light. You can PM me if you do.

 

[Cerraco]

You treat The Bible and Science like they're diametrically opposed to each other, when in reality, they're supposed to go hand in hand. You keep using this false dichotomy in your arguments and the way you talk tells me you aren't interested in learning about God and are just looking for a fight. So, I'm just going to stop here.

That isn't true, I stated how I was an anti-atheist and also said that science itself doesn't magically disprove God, I just said it disproves the origin stories, making those seem more like allegorical things. I even watched some of the videos about the person you mentioned, who seems to be a good speaker, but I'm not finding any specific things about dinosaurs existing alongside God, and his videos are like 2-3 hours long each. If I was looking for a fight, I promise I would be much worse, which would lead to my posts being edited or deleted.

Edit: I don't know if I said this in my previous posts, but I think I mentioned how I'm not like Richard Dawkins, I don't want all religion removed from the world because that's not necessary. I wish God existed, because without him, there would be no objective point to anything, except that we're cosmic accidents. There would be no justice, you could just kill anyone and get a free oblivion sleep at the end.