The "God's Plan" Illusion

[SabbathBlessings]

I should hope not, almost literally no one deserves that. You don't put a kid on time out eternally just because he called someone else a boogerface. You don't put someone in jail for life because they accidentally ran a red light once. But we better believe in Christianity otherwise we will be in unspeakably horrifying torment forever more. Again, doesn't seem like God is a fair dude. I'm seeing a lot of one-sided complacency. "Well, I'm good! My beliefs are this and this, so I got what I want. Sucks for everyone else though!"

Yes, it is a false doctrine that sinners burn forever, which makes them immortal, but its not what the scriptures teach Rom 6:23 and its really an attack on the character of God.

Some people are so enveloped and trapped in their mode of thought that they cannot see anything else. It's their own beliefs and nothing else.

Nothing wrong with this, but I've been asking a ton of questions and making excellent points, but they remain untouched. All I've been hit with is this, "Uhhh... well... uhhhh... well the Bible says this!" Again, that book was not written by God himself, it was written by imperfect people like us 2,000 years ago

God did personally write and personally speak His Ten Commandments Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 and sadly people argue against these as well.

While God did not personally write the bible, He did guide all of the authors through the Holy Spirit

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness,

. Another point I see is how people are "trapped in sin!" Who's the overarching cause for that? Who created us? God was the one birthed us into existence, we didn't create ourselves.

Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21, we are not saved in sin. Heb 10:26-30 When we say we can't overcome sin, it means our devil is bigger than our God. God said all things are possible through Him Phil 4:13 Jesus came to save us completely from the bondage of sin and while we can't obey His commandments on our own, through our love and cooperation, He is the one enabling us to keep John 14:15-18

Funny how people can talk about how loving God is, then in the same breath, talk about how quickly he can send you to hell if you so much have the wrong thoughts.

Many misunderstand God. God is long suffering and has sacrificed everything for us, He never let's go of us, we let go of Him. He will not force us to believe and follow Him, He is at the door, but we still have to open it.

God bless!

 

[Cerraco]

Yes, it is a false doctrine that sinners burn forever, which makes them immortal and its really an attack on the character of God.

Some Christians talk about going to hell like it's the most casual thing ever, in the same tone of voice when someone speaks of how the temperature might get better during the weekend. Eternal suffering is a pretty big deal, and I can't imagine even the most evil people deserving that. Finite life but eternal hell? Not a balanced concept.

God did personally write and personally speak His Ten Commandments Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 and sadly people argue against these as well.

While God did not personally write the bible, He did guide all of the authors through the Holy Spirit

Do you understand how that can be hard to believe? I believe Jesus existed, and believe the writers of the Bible were well-meaning, but that by itself does not act as the ultimate proof of things like people seem to assume. I think faith can also fall into self-deception.

Many misunderstand God. God is long suffering and has sacrificed everything for us, He never let's go of us, we let go of Him. He will not force us to believe and follow Him, He is at the door, but we still have to open it.

And what was the purpose of creating us anyway? Was he bored? He never lets go of us? There are some innocent people out there with some nightmarishly bad lives that would suggest otherwise. If I'm never seen during the course of anyone's life, then I shouldn't be surprised if at least a few people don't believe I exist. Imagine being sent to hell for that. "You know Carl, you were a great guy, but you were supposed to believe in something through blind faith. You should have been less factual and logical and relied more on blind faith, so... gotta send you to hell!"

Edit: I should also add, that anyone that goes to an American school should find it very easy to be an atheist. Because very little in life is worse than the American sch- (dry heave) school system.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I mean this with full respect, but do you understand that - as I've said before - there is horrendously overwhelming evidence against that? We can do DNA tests/carbon dating/etc. on anything at absolutely any time, we can study how evolution changes and how long it takes to change, we can do all this with rocks, living creatures, dead creatures, anything in existence. In the end, it all points to the Earth being over 4 billion years old, and the universe being over 13 billion years old.

Why does Wikipedia say the Earth is billions of years old? Why don't these scientific tests agree with the Bible? What makes the Bible correct over the science that can be checked at any time? The way the Earth has developed can't happen in 6,000 years. There are civilizations discovered that existed in 10,000 BC. This is why the Bible is usually mocked as a history book, with the stories being seen as allegorical. We have found remains of archaic humans. Where are the remains of Adam and Eve? Where's the behemoth? Where's the leviathan?

This creates another moral dilemma, the "using". If what you presented in the above quote is true, then that adds even more strength to my "set up to fail" argument. Imagine being someone who has gone through some of the most unimaginable pain ever for their entire life, and has so much well-placed resentment and anger in them that they can't believe in God/Jesus at all, and then they get sent to hell because... they were just supposed to believe, bro!! That doesn't make God look very good, that makes them the nasty Sunday school teacher.

Why does everything have to be punished so severely? Eternity in hell is a big deal, and that is an unfathomable punishment for someone who didn't think the right thoughts with their beliefs. If a Jewish person spends his life helping out anyone he can but never really believed in Christ, does that deserve hell? Why not just quickly show him that Jesus was the real deal to prove it, then send him to heaven? This stuff happened 2,000 years ago. It's not like Christ's death was on video, and again, the Bible was edited and translated many times.

What if Adam and Eve never screwed up? Would we still know of Jesus since sins would probably not exist?

You seem to be misinformed about our limits of DNA testing and carbon dating. DNA has a 500 year half life so by the time you get to 2000 years 94% of a DNA sequence is missing. Carbon dating can’t be performed on rocks it can only be done on organic materials, in other words it can only be done on materials that were once living. There are other dating methods for inorganic materials but there’s still the problem with the assumption that when these materials were created they had zero isotopic decay in them. The way scientists use the various dating methods is by measuring certain elements in the material like carbon 12 & carbon 14 or uranium 238 and lead. I think it’s 238, don’t quote me on that but over time carbon 12 changes into carbon 14 and uranium 238 changes into lead. There’s a specific number for the lead it changes into, I don’t remember which one it is. But this is known as isotopic decay. So they measure the amount of decay in these elements to PREDICT how old the material is. The problem with this type of prediction is that it’s based on the assumption that at some point the material that is being tested had zero decay in it. If the material contained decay in it when it was created then it throws off their predicted age of the material. So what scientists are actually proving is that IF there was no isotopic decay in the material when it was created and if the rate of decay hasn’t changed then the material is X amount of years old. So what they have is evidence that hangs on an assumption that we can’t actually prove.

 

[Cerraco]

You seem to be misinformed about our limits of DNA testing and carbon dating.

I'm aware of them, and there's no such thing as the perfect DNA test, at least with things that are mindnumbingly old. Even then, we can test things at any time and find patterns in how things age. There are discoveries that absolutely scream "older than 6000 years!". We have civilizations that existed in 7000 BC, 8000 BC, 10000 BC, etc. We have archaic human discoveries, remains of dinosaurs, we know how things change over X amount of time. And the evidence is still overwhelming compared to an old book saying something's true so therefore it's true because the Bible is true so it's true!!

The proof against the Bible's history is still unspeakably greater than the proof for it. Mind you, the Earth being billions of years old doesn't automatically mean there's no God, but the human population would not be how it is in just that amount of time. I'm sure plenty of the Bible's stories are true, but where is this massive ark that was built? Where is this leviathan? Where is this behemoth? The way the Earth can be studied does not match the Bible very well.

When I type in "Age of Earth" and I see "4.543 billion years", why? Did some people just wake up one day and decide to post that number just to mess with people? Why doesn't it say 6000 years?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I mean this with full respect, but do you understand that - as I've said before - there is horrendously overwhelming evidence against that? We can do DNA tests/carbon dating/etc. on anything at absolutely any time, we can study how evolution changes and how long it takes to change, we can do all this with rocks, living creatures, dead creatures, anything in existence. In the end, it all points to the Earth being over 4 billion years old, and the universe being over 13 billion years old.

Why does Wikipedia say the Earth is billions of years old? Why don't these scientific tests agree with the Bible? What makes the Bible correct over the science that can be checked at any time? The way the Earth has developed can't happen in 6,000 years. There are civilizations discovered that existed in 10,000 BC. This is why the Bible is usually mocked as a history book, with the stories being seen as allegorical. We have found remains of archaic humans. Where are the remains of Adam and Eve? Where's the behemoth? Where's the leviathan?

This creates another moral dilemma, the "using". If what you presented in the above quote is true, then that adds even more strength to my "set up to fail" argument. Imagine being someone who has gone through some of the most unimaginable pain ever for their entire life, and has so much well-placed resentment and anger in them that they can't believe in God/Jesus at all, and then they get sent to hell because... they were just supposed to believe, bro!! That doesn't make God look very good, that makes them the nasty Sunday school teacher.

Why does everything have to be punished so severely? Eternity in hell is a big deal, and that is an unfathomable punishment for someone who didn't think the right thoughts with their beliefs. If a Jewish person spends his life helping out anyone he can but never really believed in Christ, does that deserve hell? Why not just quickly show him that Jesus was the real deal to prove it, then send him to heaven? This stuff happened 2,000 years ago. It's not like Christ's death was on video, and again, the Bible was edited and translated many times.

What if Adam and Eve never screwed up? Would we still know of Jesus since sins would probably not exist?

Eternal torment is not a conclusive doctrine. Many believe it but there are passages that suggest eternal torment and there are passages that suggest that the soul actually dies in hell. Personally I tend to lean towards annihilation but I don’t rule out the possibility of eternal torment because both seem to be plausible scenarios according to the scriptures.

When Jesus died on the cross He was dead for 3 days and during that time the scriptures say that He went and preached to spirits who were in prison, these spirits were people who were disobedient before the flood. We don’t know why He went and preached to them but it’s not entirely implausible that they might’ve been given the opportunity to accept the gospel. We don’t know.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm aware of them, and there's no such thing as the perfect DNA test, at least with things that are mindnumbingly old. Even then, we can test things at any time and find patterns in how things age. There are discoveries that absolutely scream "older than 6000 years!". We have civilizations that existed in 7000 BC, 8000 BC, 10000 BC, etc. We have archaic human discoveries, remains of dinosaurs, we know how things change over X amount of time. And the evidence is still overwhelming compared to an old book saying something's true so therefore it's true because the Bible is true so it's true!!

The proof against the Bible's history is still unspeakably greater than the proof for it. Mind you, the Earth being billions of years old doesn't automatically mean there's no God, but the human population would not be how it is in just that amount of time. I'm sure plenty of the Bible's stories are true, but where is this massive ark that was built? Where is this leviathan? Where is this behemoth? The way the Earth can be studied does not match the Bible very well.

When I type in "Age of Earth" and I see "4.543 billion years", why? Did some people just wake up one day and decide to post that number just to mess with people? Why doesn't it say 6000 years?

Ok so if you’re right and I’m wrong then it would mean that I’m wrong about the age of the earth and when we die we both suffer the same fate. If I’m right and you’re wrong then I go to eternal paradise and you either go to eternal torment or annihilation. So, explain to me why I should risk such a fate? What would I have to gain from it?

 

[Cerraco]

Ok so if you’re right and I’m wrong then it would mean that I’m wrong about the age of the earth and when we die we both suffer the same fate. If I’m right and you’re wrong then I go to eternal paradise and you either go to eternal torment or annihilation. So, explain to me why I should risk such a fate? What would I have to gain from it?

Amazing... Good god... Just amazing. You do know you're proving some of my points, right? Dude, what is your belief even based on? Do you believe the Bible because you were raised that way? Or is it because you choose to believe this stuff just in case so you get that easy ticket to heaven? Your thoughts are encased deeply in your religion, but are you able to think outside of it? Are you afraid to do so?

So according to God, the measure of a person is if they believe in something they'll never see? Can I believe in Christ but still go on to sell drugs, steal cars and rob people's houses? Do I still get a free ride to heaven? BNR32FAN, you are NOT making your god look very good. I ask again, is your god an egotistical one that gives paradise to those who believe or is god better than that? Please answer that. And as for me being right or wrong about Earth's age, why can't the Earth be billions of years old but God still exists?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Amazing... Good god... Just amazing. You do know you're proving some of my points, right? Dude, what is your belief even based on? Do you believe the Bible because you were raised that way? Or is it because you choose to believe this stuff just in case so you get that easy ticket to heaven? Your thoughts are encased deeply in your religion, but are you able to think outside of it? Are you afraid to do so?

So according to God, the measure of a person is if they believe in something they'll never see? Can I believe in Christ but still go on to sell drugs, steal cars and rob people's houses? Do I still get a free ride to heaven? BNR32FAN, you are NOT making your god look very good. I ask again, is your god an egotistical one that gives paradise to those who believe or is god better than that? Please answer that. And as for me being right or wrong about Earth's age, why can't the Earth be billions of years old but God still exists?

You never answered my question and try to pretend that you’re talking to someone who actually believes in God. WHAT DO I HAVE TO GAIN FROM NOT BELIEVING?

 

[Cerraco]

You never answered my question and try to pretend that you’re talking to someone who actually believes in God. WHAT DO I HAVE TO GAIN FROM NOT BELIEVING?

I thought that was rhetorical. Well, I feel like that's a multi-part answer: if God is really this egotist, I guess you gain nothing. In that scenario, you believe, so you're good. Not for the right reasons, but if those are God's whacked out rules... If God is not real, then anyone believing would be in a state of self-deception, and just using religion to make themselves feel better.

Alright, now can you answer my question?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Amazing... Good god... Just amazing. You do know you're proving some of my points, right? Dude, what is your belief even based on? Do you believe the Bible because you were raised that way? Or is it because you choose to believe this stuff just in case so you get that easy ticket to heaven? Your thoughts are encased deeply in your religion, but are you able to think outside of it? Are you afraid to do so?

So according to God, the measure of a person is if they believe in something they'll never see? Can I believe in Christ but still go on to sell drugs, steal cars and rob people's houses? Do I still get a free ride to heaven? BNR32FAN, you are NOT making your god look very good. I ask again, is your god an egotistical one that gives paradise to those who believe or is god better than that? Please answer that. And as for me being right or wrong about Earth's age, why can't the Earth be billions of years old but God still exists?

There is an abundance of evidence of God that can be seen in creation. The complexity of all life on earth no matter what life form you’re looking at screams intelligent design. The fact that everything came together so perfectly in order for life to exist and perpetuate itself on this planet is astronomically improbable. The built in natural instincts of animals that is absolutely imperative to their survival. There is an abundance of evidence supporting the existence of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I thought that was rhetorical. Well, I feel like that's a multi-part answer: if God is really this egotist, I guess you gain nothing. In that scenario, you believe, so you're good. Not for the right reasons, but if those are God's whacked out rules... If God is not real, then anyone believing would be in a state of self-deception, and just using religion to make themselves feel better.

Alright, now can you answer my question?

Sure which one? You asked about 15 questions in that last post

 

[BNR32FAN]

Amazing... Good god... Just amazing. You do know you're proving some of my points, right? Dude, what is your belief even based on? Do you believe the Bible because you were raised that way? Or is it because you choose to believe this stuff just in case so you get that easy ticket to heaven? Your thoughts are encased deeply in your religion, but are you able to think outside of it? Are you afraid to do so?

So according to God, the measure of a person is if they believe in something they'll never see? Can I believe in Christ but still go on to sell drugs, steal cars and rob people's houses? Do I still get a free ride to heaven? BNR32FAN, you are NOT making your god look very good. I ask again, is your god an egotistical one that gives paradise to those who believe or is god better than that? Please answer that. And as for me being right or wrong about Earth's age, why can't the Earth be billions of years old but God still exists?

I didn’t believe the Bible until I was 38 years old. But I did recognize that life as we see it today can’t be the result of elements and molecules just coming together in a random order because there’s nothing random about the architecture of life. Just in the human body alone there are so many adaptive systems working together in synchrony in order for us to survive, repopulate, and thrive that it’s inconceivable for it to have not derived from any sort of intelligent design. I’ve always recognized that life has to have been biologically engineered in some sort of fashion in order for it to exist as it does today.

 

[Cerraco]

There is an abundance of evidence of God that can be seen in creation. The complexity of all life on earth no matter what life form you’re looking at screams intelligent design. The fact that everything came together so perfectly in order for life to exist and perpetuate itself on this planet is astronomically improbable. The built in natural instincts of animals that is absolutely imperative to their survival. There is an abundance of evidence supporting the existence of God.

Sure which one? You asked about 15 questions in that last post

In my last post there was one question where I said "Please answer that." It was this one here: "I ask again, is your god an egotistical one that gives paradise to those who believe or is god better than that? Please answer that." If you want to answer the others, go ahead. That's the picture you painted of this oh-so-loving god, "Believe this or hell! Believe that or hell!" We're not in heaven right now, we're on Earth, so that is the reality we know and study. A lot of people say that "life can't come from non-life" and "all of this didn't come from nothing!" which are not terrible arguments, but still don't always have a lot of legs to stand on.

The complexity of life itself is potential evidence, but science can still explain a lot of the things you're talking about. Life did not start out as complex as we see today. And even if you're absolutely correct about all that, we still have an unjust and egotistical god that made a bunch of people, knew what they were gonna do before they were born, but still hope they all become believers. Does God truly expect every single solitary person to follow Christ and be this die-hard Christian? If he does, then your god ain't very smart. There are still people living horrible lives that would never believe a loving god made this world, and then they go to hell because... believe or hell, bro!

The wikipedia page on humans state how archaic humans formed around 600,000 years ago and went from there. Where did this come from? Did someone just make that up for attention?

 

[BNR32FAN]

In my last post there was one question where I said "Please answer that." It was this one here: "I ask again, is your god an egotistical one that gives paradise to those who believe or is god better than that? Please answer that." If you want to answer the others, go ahead. That's the picture you painted of this oh-so-loving god, "Believe this or hell! Believe that or hell!" We're not in heaven right now, we're on Earth, so that is the reality we know and study. A lot of people say that "life can't come from non-life" and "all of this didn't come from nothing!" which are not terrible arguments, but still don't always have a lot of legs to stand on.

The complexity of life itself is potential evidence, but science can still explain a lot of the things you're talking about. Life did not start out as complex as we see today. And even if you're absolutely correct about all that, we still have an unjust and egotistical god that made a bunch of people, knew what they were gonna do before they were born, but still hope they all become believers. Does God truly expect every single solitary person to follow Christ and be this die-hard Christian? If he does, then your god ain't very smart. There are still people living horrible lives that would never believe a loving god made this world, and then they go to hell because... believe or hell, bro!

The wikipedia page on humans state how archaic humans formed around 600,000 years ago and went from there. Where did this come from? Did someone just make that up for attention?

Well let’s unravel what I’ve established so far about God and His expectations. I’ve already established that we don’t know what happens to people who haven’t heard the gospel. So what about those who have heard it? You’re basically asking me if I think that a God who literally came down to earth and offered Himself to suffer and die on a cross in order to pay the penalty for our disobedience deserves to expect us to believe in Him. I would yeah 100%. That doesn’t sound like too much to ask for considering what He’s done for us. And by us I mean you, me, and everyone else. I don’t see how that’s an unfathomable expectation.

 

[Cerraco]

You’re basically asking me if I think a God that literally came down to earth and offered Himself to suffer and die on a cross in order to pay the penalty for our disobedience deserves to expect us to believe in Him. I would yeah 100%.

Wait, the question was "is God egotistical or is he more forgiving than that?" When you say that "you would yeah 100%", I'm assuming you're talking about sending people to eternal torment? Jesus dying for our sins is a universe-sized amazing gift for everyone, but there's still more to reality than that. This is something that happened 2,000 years ago with no video or cameras existing back then, so some people are gonna be skeptical about this.

A person is still more than what they believe. By the logic you've presented, there's gonna be d-bag Christians getting eternal bliss and heroic atheists burning forever. The entire worth on a person's soul is "do they believe this??" Imagine being an atheist that cured three types of cancer, and helped crazy amounts of people, and then he just goes to hell because he was supposed to believe, dude! An old book says so! If that's the case... then like I've been saying, your god is a dope.

You can say what the rules are 100 times over but that doesn't mean everything makes perfect sense. Also, since God knows the future, then we have people being... *drumroll* ...set up to fail!

That doesn’t sound like too much to ask for considering what He’s done for us. And by us I mean you, me, and everyone else. I don’t see how that’s an unfathomable expectation.

I've been poking holes in that this whole time. Can you create billions of people with different personalities and backgrounds, knowing how they will be before they're even born, and then get mad that 100% of the human race are not blind followers of Christianity when some of them will be raised differently? Do you not see the logical fallacy there? You see the "rules", but you don't see the logical problems. The fact that atheists like me are finding 1+1=9-type issues with religious logic... I don't see that is an unfathomable expectation either.

You're pretty much confirming that God is the nasty Sunday school teacher. Then you said that he uses people to create more people that might be believers. Cool, so people are being created as pawns and then suffering for it. Does your god still sound like a loving one? No.

There are people that have been kidnapped and used as slaves for years, and a lot of them had no room in their lives to be religious or even care about Jesus despite knowing about him. But... straight to hell, right?

 

[Cerraco]

Wonderful! Excellent! For all who put their trust in God.

Sad story, punishment and judgment, for those who deny Jesus.

Everyone chooses.

If this was meant to be some type of argument, it isn't. This is utterly meaningless. Never have I seen posts that casually fuel the other person's point without realizing it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Wait, the question was "is God egotistical or is he more forgiving than that?" When you say that "you would yeah 100%", I'm assuming you're talking about sending people to eternal torment? Jesus dying for our sins is a universe-sized amazing gift for everyone, but there's still more to reality than that. This is something that happened 2,000 years ago with no video or cameras existing back then, so some people are gonna be skeptical about this.

A person is still more than what they believe. By the logic you've presented, there's gonna be d-bag Christians getting eternal bliss and heroic atheists burning forever. The entire worth on a person's soul is "do they believe this??" Imagine being an atheist that cured three types of cancer, and helped crazy amounts of people, and then he just goes to hell because he was supposed to believe, dude! An old book says so! If that's the case... then like I've been saying, your god is a dope.

You can say what the rules are 100 times over but that doesn't mean everything makes perfect sense. Also, since God knows the future, then we have people being... *drumroll* ...set up to fail!

I've been poking holes in that this whole time. Can you create billions of people with different personalities and backgrounds, knowing how they will be before they're even born, and then get mad that 100% of the human race are not blind followers of Christianity when some of them will be raised differently? Do you not see the logical fallacy there? You see the "rules", but you don't see the logical problems. The fact that atheists like me are finding 1+1=9-type issues with religious logic... I don't see that is an unfathomable expectation either.

You're pretty much confirming that God is the nasty Sunday school teacher. Then you said that he uses people to create more people that might be believers. Cool, so people are being created as pawns and then suffering for it. Does your god still sound like a loving one? No.

There are people that have been kidnapped and used as slaves for years, and a lot of them had no room in their lives to be religious or even care about Jesus despite knowing about him. But... straight to hell, right?

Eh’ take it or leave it. You do you bro, and I’ll do me. What more do you want me to say? I’ve presented my case for God, you’ve presented your’s, so do with it whatever you want. That’s completely your choice.

 

[Cerraco]

Nope. Not meant to be some type of argument at all.
Compare if you like the stop lights used to control traffic, along with traffic laws.

I don't think that's a good comparison, but I'll happily tell you why as we go. Not sure why you made a bunch of posts instead of one post... Not that this is a big deal, but responding to quotes BELOW the text can be very confusing.

Eh’ take it or leave it. You do you bro, and I’ll do me. What more do you want me to say? I’ve presented my case for God, you’ve presented your’s, so do with it whatever you want. That’s completely your choice.

I... think I'll leave most of it. I've come up with plenty of counter-arguments and questions that you weren't able to explain or answer. There was a lot of skipped material and the most I've gotten is "that's just the rules, bro!" and "You should just believe no matter what!" And I've explained how those rules don't work in many, many ways. "That's just how it is!" doesn't automatically equal "This is right and makes perfect sense!"

Red means STOP. Run thru a red light in a motor vehicle and get a ticket. Make any excuse- still get a ticket. Usually a fine to pay also, or lose license.

Yes, you rightfully get a ticket. But because not everything is black and white, sometimes you gotta run that red if, say, someone in your car is suffering a heart attack and time is of the essence.

God's Plan , Purpose, and Commandments are EASIER and MORE JUST, and RIGHT,
than man's plan, purpose and traffic laws are to keep.

Ignorance of the law, God's or man's, is no excuse.

"MORE JUST"? I'm gonna have so much fun with that one... When we go by the simple laws, such as do not kill, do not steal, don't go for thy neighbor's wife, etc. Yeah, those rules are pretty simple, straightforward and just, and you should follow this stuff whether God exists or not. The bulk of my arguments have been about believing in Christ and why God bothered to create some people knowing they were not gonna be Christians beforehand.

Have you ever turned your stove on, waited for a burner to get red hot, knew it was gonna hurt when you touched it, touched it anyway, screamed in pain, and then went "What's wrong with this dumb stove? Why does the heat burn me?!" when you knew damn well what was gonna happen beforehand? Well that's what's "God's Plan" is looking for nearly everyone.

Is there any human compassion for these people ? >>

.....???? What..?

Don't people feel better if they feel better ? Aren't they happier instead of depressed , if they feel better ?

Y... Yes? I think what you meant to say here is, "Isn't the important factor here that they're happier instead of depressed? What does it matter what they believe? As long as they're happier, right?" Or at least something along those lines? But yes, there's a ton of pretty lies or dressed-up unknowns that make people happier, that doesn't mean it can't be self-deception.

No, no, no. That does not mean what you post.
It does not matter at all basically how a person is raised. (as concerning peace, joy, righteousness and eternal life)

"That does not mean what you post." ...?? What..? I'm not trying to be mean here, but you have a peculiar way of typing that is very hard to understand at times. So the fact is, it doesn't matter what kind of life the person lives, their job is to just suck it up and believe, right? Or else... hell. Is that your point? I've given many examples against why this logic doesn't pan out.

 

[Cerraco]

What kind of life the person lives is more important by far, in this life, and perhaps eternally, God Permitting.

This is what I both agree with, and have been saying for quite some time. A person is more than their belief in Jesus. That being a requirement just to reach heaven is dumb beyond dumb, at least by itself. Someone can believe in Christ and still be a scumbag, but that person gets a free ride to heaven? And an atheist with a good heart that has done more work for others than most Christians out there is going straight to hell, after everything he's done. If this is how it is, then God is not this just, loving God that everyone keeps painting.

Main issue: How a person is raised may have nothing at all to do with what kind of life the person lives.

And sometimes it does, and that can shape what they believe. It's not difficult to believe that what you believe in sends you straight to heaven when you already believe that stuff. That is self-serving logic. "I'm right and everybody is wrong, so they'll all suffer for it."

 

[Cerraco]

It is not how it is.

I should hope not.

Whoever does not believe may be IS CONDEMNED ALREADY (while still on this earth now today)
because of their unbelief. What they do may be inconsequential.

I have no idea what you meant here... And was every human birthed into existence supposed to just believe in Christ no matter where they were in life and how they were raised? Did God really expect a 100% "believe rate"? That's like expecting the fans of an away sports team to suddenly convert to your side when you know they won't, then they don't, then you condemn them for not doing so.