The "God's Plan" Illusion

[Cerraco]

Have you ever read through the Bible.

Did you see where God says He looked from heaven to see if anyone at all was seeking Him, and there was NO ONE SEEKING HIM.

I've read both testaments long ago, and they left me horrified and confused. As for God discovering that no one was seeking him, he's God... does he not know the future? Did he not know this was gonna happen before he birthed those people? I could be a Guinness record book by now with how many times I've brought this point up.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I always found the "God's plan" thing to be a thought blanket. Something that makes people feel better. It is very easy for someone to think to themselves, "This bad stuff happened to me because of God's plan!" instead of understanding that it happened because it just happened. Another thing I see on this forum is threads where people say, "I had a bad thought against God, I'm so going to hell!" This is why I'm not religious, because logic and religion are two concepts that are so far apart that I can't even begin to explain it. Given the rules here, what I can talk about is very limited.

Like I probably described in a few others threads, I went to a macho, alpha redpilled forum for some dating advice, and due to me being a 36-year-old virgin, I was made to feel unspeakably terrible and self-conscious. It opened my eyes to how the world really is, what the world really wants and should want, and it worried me so much that I was in this half-conscious state, that's how bad it was. The world is trapped in high school. I will probably stay alone forever because of how the world works and thinks. Then that led me to why God creates people. Why? Some people are set up to fail. I've actually seen someone reply with "If you don't believe that Christ died for our sins and X, Y and Z, you go to a lake of fire." which is quite possibly the most disgusting and infuriating thing I've ever read. So that means people raised differently are going straight to hell because... they were raised differently? Okay. Cool, what a way to go through life, just assume that 90% of people walking around on Earth are gonna suffer for eternity because they don't think a certain way. Boy, what a loving God, right?

You don't get to have this forgiving, all-loving God but oh by the way he eternally punishes people for what their beliefs are, so pick the right one. You might as say that the Empire State Building is the same thing as a spoon. I never understood how faith works. Even when I was in kindergarten, I looked forward to getting old and dying eventually because I'd be done with that Earth crap and just go to straight to heaven, hopefully, if it existed. We all have lives we didn't ask for. Over 4 billion people do not have a unique purpose in this life, especially when a lot of them are invisible people, and some who die young before any impact was made. What was God's plan then?

God does not seem to be very good at his job, and by that, I mean he seems to be nightmarishly bad at his job. He knows the future right? So he already knows who's going to heaven and hell before they're even born, meaning some people are set up to fail. God is writing strawman as actual living people. One could say, "God doesn't have a plan for some people because those people don't believe/haven't given themselves up to God yet!" Then why did God create them in the first place, even if he knows they will not be religious? Why expect someone to root for your team when you know ahead of time they won't? Also, what are the mechanics? God waits for people to "get busy", then puts a soul in a fetus at the right time? This is why atheists exist, because the logic just doesn't click together. Where do people get the God's plan mode of thought from?

You really need to check out Christian Universal Redemption. This way to understand scripture and the God who scripture talked about answers a lot of the good you have raised. It’s the way that a lot of the church believed for the first couple of centuries till Augustine gained control and tried to stamp it out with the pagan idea of eternal torture from God.

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

I always found the "God's plan" thing to be a thought blanket. Something that makes people feel better. It is very easy for someone to think to themselves, "This bad stuff happened to me because of God's plan!" instead of understanding that it happened because it just happened. Another thing I see on this forum is threads where people say, "I had a bad thought against God, I'm so going to hell!" This is why I'm not religious, because logic and religion are two concepts that are so far apart that I can't even begin to explain it. Given the rules here, what I can talk about is very limited.

Like I probably described in a few others threads, I went to a macho, alpha redpilled forum for some dating advice, and due to me being a 36-year-old virgin, I was made to feel unspeakably terrible and self-conscious. It opened my eyes to how the world really is, what the world really wants and should want, and it worried me so much that I was in this half-conscious state, that's how bad it was. The world is trapped in high school. I will probably stay alone forever because of how the world works and thinks. Then that led me to why God creates people. Why? Some people are set up to fail. I've actually seen someone reply with "If you don't believe that Christ died for our sins and X, Y and Z, you go to a lake of fire." which is quite possibly the most disgusting and infuriating thing I've ever read. So that means people raised differently are going straight to hell because... they were raised differently? Okay. Cool, what a way to go through life, just assume that 90% of people walking around on Earth are gonna suffer for eternity because they don't think a certain way. Boy, what a loving God, right?

You don't get to have this forgiving, all-loving God but oh by the way he eternally punishes people for what their beliefs are, so pick the right one. You might as say that the Empire State Building is the same thing as a spoon. I never understood how faith works. Even when I was in kindergarten, I looked forward to getting old and dying eventually because I'd be done with that Earth crap and just go to straight to heaven, hopefully, if it existed. We all have lives we didn't ask for. Over 4 billion people do not have a unique purpose in this life, especially when a lot of them are invisible people, and some who die young before any impact was made. What was God's plan then?

God does not seem to be very good at his job, and by that, I mean he seems to be nightmarishly bad at his job. He knows the future right? So he already knows who's going to heaven and hell before they're even born, meaning some people are set up to fail. God is writing strawman as actual living people. One could say, "God doesn't have a plan for some people because those people don't believe/haven't given themselves up to God yet!" Then why did God create them in the first place, even if he knows they will not be religious? Why expect someone to root for your team when you know ahead of time they won't? Also, what are the mechanics? God waits for people to "get busy", then puts a soul in a fetus at the right time? This is why atheists exist, because the logic just doesn't click together. Where do people get the God's plan mode of thought from?

Hello! 33 year old virgin and ex-athiest/agonistic who's went through the same kind of thing as you have. Feeling terrible and self-conscious due to arbitrary standards set by the world.

First off, don't listen to those guys. They're very hateful towards women and are driven by self rather than becoming men that women can love and trust. God called us to be protectors and providers and to treat women not only with respect, but with grace. As for why so many people have trouble with dating? Well you can blame Satan, the rise of social media, and this generation's tendency towards isolation.

You don't define yourself by whether or not you have a woman in your life. You define yourself as being a child of God. Having a mate is just one part of the bigger picture. Not saying there's anything wrong with wanting a woman. I certainly want one, and God called Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. But the point of sex and procreation isn't for the sake of it, it's to glorify God.

You're right to say the world is pretty much stuck in high school. That's the fact about life: We live in a fallen world outside of God's design. And this isn't because God "failed" or anything like that. It's because we are given freewill. We are given the decision to choose whether or not to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. And even beyond that, we're given the choice to follow God's leading for us or to go our own way. And time and time again, when we go our own way, it ends in disaster. But God is also merciful, and reaches out to us no matter how badly we mess things up, no matter what depraved things we did. For as sinners, we can't pay the price of our sin on our own. Only through Christ are we saved. Only through repentance and accepting Jesus can we be saved.

You ask why God would make certain people to "fail" or not be religious. The fact of the matter is that all of creation, the trees, the animals, the sky, children, ect. are all proof that God exists, so that no one has any excuse to deny God. We're all given a choice, so God is completely justified to send us to Hell if we choose not to turn to Him. Even if a person doesn't know about Jesus, this fact will lead them to desire to seek God, and as disciples, it's our job to spread the good news and lead them away from false religions and pagan lifestyles.

As for your statements on sexuality, God only created sex for a man and woman in the covenant of marriage. Anything outside of that is a perversion of God's natural design. So technically, a "homosexual person" doesn't exist. That's a lie created by society that's so obsessed with giving themselves an identity. It's also used to justify committing heinous acts and to cover up how things like porn and predatory behavior have harmed our children. The fact is, those who commit such acts are people who've been hurt in some way and need healing. Homosexual acts do not define them. God does.

Finally, no one is good. Not even one. You don't go to Heaven based on whether or not you're good. We're all sinners. We've all fallen short in some way. Jesus is the only one who lived a sinless life, and through His sacrifice, the debts we've accumulated over our lives through our sin are paid. Including ones you've made after you're saved.

The reason why God did that, the reason why He had anything at all to do with us, is because He loves us. And He absolutely loves you. It pains Him to see you go through hardship and pain. It pains Him that you don't believe. All He wants from you is to come back home to Him. When you do, your life will be changed. I won't say it'll be easier though. We still live in a fallen world with a tendency to sin ourselves. But the gift of eternity that He gives to His children far outweighs the trails we go through in this life.

I pray that one day soon you'll understand. I went into Christianity with selfish motives in mind, and over time realized just how selfish a human being I was. And even before that, I always hated myself and the things I've done. I still struggle with that, but I know now that God doesn't define me by my past or my flaws. By accepting His gift, He's made me His son. And that's all you really need.

 

[Aaron112]

Best to realize a fraud, a fake, a false gospel, a forbidden topic in most forums because it is so contrary to all Scripture.

You really need to check out Christian Universal Redemption.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

I always found the "God's plan" thing to be a thought blanket. Something that makes people feel better. It is very easy for someone to think to themselves, "This bad stuff happened to me because of God's plan!" instead of understanding that it happened because it just happened. Another thing I see on this forum is threads where people say, "I had a bad thought against God, I'm so going to hell!" This is why I'm not religious, because logic and religion are two concepts that are so far apart that I can't even begin to explain it. Given the rules here, what I can talk about is very limited.

Like I probably described in a few others threads, I went to a macho, alpha redpilled forum for some dating advice, and due to me being a 36-year-old virgin, I was made to feel unspeakably terrible and self-conscious. It opened my eyes to how the world really is, what the world really wants and should want, and it worried me so much that I was in this half-conscious state, that's how bad it was. The world is trapped in high school. I will probably stay alone forever because of how the world works and thinks. Then that led me to why God creates people. Why? Some people are set up to fail. I've actually seen someone reply with "If you don't believe that Christ died for our sins and X, Y and Z, you go to a lake of fire." which is quite possibly the most disgusting and infuriating thing I've ever read. So that means people raised differently are going straight to hell because... they were raised differently? Okay. Cool, what a way to go through life, just assume that 90% of people walking around on Earth are gonna suffer for eternity because they don't think a certain way. Boy, what a loving God, right?

You don't get to have this forgiving, all-loving God but oh by the way he eternally punishes people for what their beliefs are, so pick the right one. You might as say that the Empire State Building is the same thing as a spoon. I never understood how faith works. Even when I was in kindergarten, I looked forward to getting old and dying eventually because I'd be done with that Earth crap and just go to straight to heaven, hopefully, if it existed. We all have lives we didn't ask for. Over 4 billion people do not have a unique purpose in this life, especially when a lot of them are invisible people, and some who die young before any impact was made. What was God's plan then?

God does not seem to be very good at his job, and by that, I mean he seems to be nightmarishly bad at his job. He knows the future right? So he already knows who's going to heaven and hell before they're even born, meaning some people are set up to fail. God is writing strawman as actual living people. One could say, "God doesn't have a plan for some people because those people don't believe/haven't given themselves up to God yet!" Then why did God create them in the first place, even if he knows they will not be religious? Why expect someone to root for your team when you know ahead of time they won't? Also, what are the mechanics? God waits for people to "get busy", then puts a soul in a fetus at the right time? This is why atheists exist, because the logic just doesn't click together. Where do people get the God's plan mode of thought from?

Did you hear of the Kingdom of heaven? did you hear about free will that God gave us? do you pretend to know better than God that you can judge him?

 

[Cerraco]

Hello! 33 year old virgin and ex-athiest/agonistic who's went through the same kind of thing as you have. Feeling terrible and self-conscious due to arbitrary standards set by the world.

And even if you don't follow them or know they are wrong, they don't go away.

First off, don't listen to those guys. They're very hateful towards women and are driven by self rather than becoming men that women can love and trust. God called us to be protectors and providers and to treat women not only with respect, but with grace. As for why so many people have trouble with dating? Well you can blame Satan, the rise of social media, and this generation's tendency towards isolation.

If I was some top-level hacker, I would shut that forum down over and over again purely out of bitter spite. I couldn't take that place anymore, the massive egos those alpha male morons have. I had could write a book on how egotistical they are. Sadly, these are the dudes that get the women. The world is a backwards place. I'm not like them anyway, I don't constantly think about sex the way they do.

You don't define yourself by whether or not you have a woman in your life. You define yourself as being a child of God. Having a mate is just one part of the bigger picture. Not saying there's anything wrong with wanting a woman. I certainly want one, and God called Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. But the point of sex and procreation isn't for the sake of it, it's to glorify God.

Yeah, sorry man, I don't believe the Adam and Eve thing and I never will. If you understood the science of Earth, you wouldn't either. What if someone is born deformed and/or unattractive? What about them? Do we get all the things in heaven that we failed to in life?

You're right to say the world is pretty much stuck in high school. That's the fact about life: We live in a fallen world outside of God's design. And this isn't because God "failed" or anything like that. It's because we are given freewill. We are given the decision to choose whether or not to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. And even beyond that, we're given the choice to follow God's leading for us or to go our own way. And time and time again, when we go our own way, it ends in disaster. But God is also merciful, and reaches out to us no matter how badly we mess things up, no matter what depraved things we did. For as sinners, we can't pay the price of our sin on our own. Only through Christ are we saved. Only through repentance and accepting Jesus can we be saved.

The world was "fallen" from the start. The world was never this amazing place where nothing could go wrong, it was always garbage. If Adam and Eve were real, there was already a murder with just 4 people, not a good start. Why did God create the world anyway? Just for "love"? A lot of us are given lives we never asked for, and now a lot of us have to go to hell because we don't believe in something we'll never see. That's absolutely stupid. We keep going back to this "God wants us to do this and take this path" when he knows beforehand that some people won't, given their upbringing and where they were born.

You ask why God would make certain people to "fail" or not be religious. The fact of the matter is that all of creation, the trees, the animals, the sky, children, ect. are all proof that God exists, so that no one has any excuse to deny God. We're all given a choice, so God is completely justified to send us to Hell if we choose not to turn to Him. Even if a person doesn't know about Jesus, this fact will lead them to desire to seek God, and as disciples, it's our job to spread the good news and lead them away from false religions and pagan lifestyles.

No, that stuff doesn't automatically act as proof of God. At least not all of it, as there is a scientific explanation for all of that, which can be tested and seen at any time. Granted, God creating the world overall is not the worst thing I've heard, but the world is not 6,000 years old. That's impossible. Am I gonna believe something that is logically proven and can be at any time? Or am I gonna believe what some ancient book says just because it's there? I asked this before, did God expect ALL humans to be believers? He should know that we all won't be like that, can't God see the future? Set up to fail.

"so God is completely justified to send us to Hell if we choose not to turn to Him." This is absolute trash. Look at some of the unfair and horrific lives some people have when they have done nothing to anyone. Can you blame them for not being Christians? Oh well, gotta send them to hell anyway! Christian logic. Another thing about Christianity is everything has to be about hell hell hell and hell. There's never any middle ground. Did someone with a heart of gold but was an atheist die? Then show him he's wrong instead of just blindly sending someone to hell forever.

I'll say it again, if God knows the future, he knows who will be followers and who won't. God already knows the ending, so he's creating people that are destined to go to hell if that's the case. Don't blame the explosive after you were the one who created it and lit the fuse.

As for your statements on sexuality, God only created sex for a man and woman in the covenant of marriage. Anything outside of that is a perversion of God's natural design. So technically, a "homosexual person" doesn't exist. That's a lie created by society that's so obsessed with giving themselves an identity. It's also used to justify committing heinous acts and to cover up how things like porn and predatory behavior have harmed our children. The fact is, those who commit such acts are people who've been hurt in some way and need healing. Homosexual acts do not define them. God does.

I don't care what God's stance is on this, someone's orientation does not make the whole person. Doesn't God know this stuff beforehand? If someone is gay or bi, who cares? Who does it hurt? How does it affect you? There are more disgusting straight people out there than gay ones. There are plenty of gay people that live completely normal and healthy lives, why does it have to be a big deal? Aren't we supposed to not judge and love thy neighbor? I will not judge based on orientation.

A lot of people say that being gay is the product of Satan. How? Is Satan waving his magic wand and turning random people gay just for fun? I'd like an answer to that. Instead of turning people into his minions outright, he just... makes them gay? Doesn't make sense.

Finally, no one is good. Not even one. You don't go to Heaven based on whether or not you're good. We're all sinners. We've all fallen short in some way. Jesus is the only one who lived a sinless life, and through His sacrifice, the debts we've accumulated over our lives through our sin are paid. Including ones you've made after you're saved.

No one's good, huh? Whose fault is that? Even indirectly, God is still the overarching reason for everything; good and bad. We didn't create ourselves, we didn't ask for life, God did. He created everyone for unknown reasons because... he was bored I guess? A lot of you Christians have this do or die black-or-white views on life, and life is NOT black and white. It's easy to judge others when everything is going fine for you, or if someone thinks different than you.

The reason why God did that, the reason why He had anything at all to do with us, is because He loves us. And He absolutely loves you. It pains Him to see you go through hardship and pain. It pains Him that you don't believe. All He wants from you is to come back home to Him. When you do, your life will be changed. I won't say it'll be easier though. We still live in a fallen world with a tendency to sin ourselves. But the gift of eternity that He gives to His children far outweighs the trails we go through in this life.

Ooohhhh, it pains him... well he sure does a damn good job of not helping a lot of people out. Let me go back to the homosexual thing. There are gay people that have been mocked, ridiculed, ostracized and put down in more ways that I probably can't mention here. There's talking about them, and then there's being them. These are people that go through so much confusion, they beg to be normal, they just want to change, but can't. Oh yeah, now they gotta go to hell too just for that. Boy, your God sure does sound loving!

If God doesn't like homosexuality that much, then why doesn't he just remove it?! Does God's magic not work on sexual orientation? Why do homosexual people have to pray 20 times a day to maybe have it removed? Yeah, let's condemn someone just for that. If there's a slice of cheese on a sandwich that you don't like, you can just remove the slice and continue eating, you don't condemn the whole sandwich and set it on fire for all eternity. Or maybe you just eat it with the cheese anyway because it's not all that bad either way. See that? If us humans can look past someone's orientation/beliefs and see more to the person, then I'd like to think God can too.

I pray that one day soon you'll understand. I went into Christianity with selfish motives in mind, and over time realized just how selfish a human being I was. And even before that, I always hated myself and the things I've done. I still struggle with that, but I know now that God doesn't define me by my past or my flaws. By accepting His gift, He's made me His son. And that's all you really need.

I am already aware of myself, I know my flaws and I know I'm far from perfect, but my sense of logic and morality is still better than a lot of religious people out there. I don't hold up signs that say "God hates ___s" because that's absolutely ignorant. I have been pushed farther away from Christianity because of these replies. Mind you, I already believe in the existence and trials of Jesus, and I do actually love the guy, but I don't believe in God at the moment. And even if I did, I would still not be religious because of the non-logic and hypocrisy that people inject in the religion.

Did you hear of the Kingdom of heaven? did you hear about free will that God gave us? do you pretend to know better than God that you can judge him?

Yes. Yes. And sadly yes, if things don't add up. I don't believe things because "I should just believe, no excuse." If I see 1+1=400, I point that out, and that's what's going on here. The truth is, no one truly knows what God does with some believers or non-believers. Doesn't matter what that dusty outdated book says. God would be the only one who knows anyway.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

@Cerraco

---

Dear cerraco,

I understand your concern about the concept of predestination. It’s a complex topic that has sparked much debate, but let me share some thoughts rooted in Scripture to clarify and perhaps ease these concerns.

The Bible presents a balance between God’s sovereignty and human free will. Jesus, more than anyone, emphasized the importance of personal choice in responding to God’s call. For example, He says, “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). This open invitation implies that we have the ability to choose whether to accept or reject His offer.

Moreover, God’s desire is for everyone to be saved. As Jesus laments over Jerusalem, He says, “How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” (Matthew 23:37). Here, we see God’s longing for people to come to Him, but also their refusal, showing that human will plays a role in the outcome.

Jesus’ teachings consistently affirm personal responsibility. For example, in the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30), God entrusts individuals with resources and expects them to act wisely. Judgment is based on how they respond, further underscoring the importance of human choice.

Rather than viewing predestination as God deciding who will be saved or condemned without any input from us, it’s more consistent with Scripture to see it as God’s overarching plan for salvation through Jesus Christ. This plan is open to all, but we must choose to accept it.

Predestination seems to undermine the role of faith and choice. The Bible assures us that God’s character is both loving and just, and His invitation to eternal life is extended to everyone.

I hope these reflections help you find clarity on this topic.

Blessings,
Jff

 

[Aaron112]

If God doesn't like homosexuality that much, then why doesn't he just remove it?

He Does, or Can. He Revealed a Trigger in the Brain or rather a Switch, when it was Specifically Prayed for, Openly, the defect was taken care of, gone, healed. Found in the Book "The Transformation of the Inner Man". Apparently without effort - God's Healing, just like when God heals cancer (easy, no stress). The Book May or May Not Be Available. God Heals as He Pleases.

 

[Cerraco]

He Does, or Can. He Revealed a Trigger in the Brain or rather a Switch, when it was Specifically Prayed for, Openly, the defect was taken care of, gone, healed. Found in the Book "The Transformation of the Inner Man". Apparently without effort - God's Healing, just like when God heals cancer (easy, no stress). The Book May or May Not Be Available. God Heals as He Pleases.

Yeah, you got that right... Kinda goes without saying.

(God does something good.) = "Thank you, God!"
(God does something awful.) = "Well... he works in mysterious ways I guess..."

Talk about a cop out. So if you have cancer, or a homosexual or have any other type of issue... God just... heals you when he feels it. Almost ruins the point of praying and sucking up to him. Sounds more like a gamble. Also, why are you capitalizing every single word of your posts..??

Predestination seems to undermine the role of faith and choice. The Bible assures us that God’s character is both loving and just, and His invitation to eternal life is extended to everyone.

That depends on if you choose to believe that book or not. I even think the word "assures" is pretty strong in this case. And what happens when if you're raised under the Jewish faith and believe Jesus was not the messiah? Straight to hell, right? Born in the wrong place and the wrong time? If the answer is yes to the hell thing, then no, your God is not as loving as he says he is.

Edit: Another point I want to make is what I get from atheist NDEs, which sound a lot more pleasant than some of the fairy-tale sounding stuff that the Bible says. People that got to enter heaven anyway because they weren't judged on beliefs. There are also people out there that gave up on their faith because they maybe they were dead for a while and saw nothing.

 

[Aaron112]

Had several times. Healed it. Easy.
The gays who were healed were healed. Easy.
Not by flesh, not by human power, but by My Spirit Sayeth the Lord Almighty.

So if you have cancer,

 

[Aaron112]

The Apostles and disciples of Jesus at one point were all Jewish.
They believed and were immersed in Jesus' Name, no more fear of judgment. LIFE ETERNAL! (if they did not fall away, of course, as written)

And what happens when if you're raised under the Jewish faith and believe Jesus was not the messiah? Straight to hell, right?

 

[Aaron112]

Yet God is Always Right.
He May not have been the one who started the idea that 'hell' was unending torment. That looks like pagan idea brought to christianity by false teachers.

If the answer is yes to the hell thing, then no, your God is not as loving as he says he is.

 

[Cerraco]

Had several times. Healed it. Easy.
The gays who were healed were healed. Easy.
Not by flesh, not by human power, but by My Spirit Sayeth the Lord Almighty.

Dude, why do you keep splitting up your posts into multiple posts? Why..? Also, yeah, healing stuff is pretty easy for a deity. That one's easy to figure out. I don't think you understood the point I was driving at when I talked about cancer and people being gay.

The Apostles and disciples of Jesus at one point were all Jewish.
They believed and were immersed in Jesus' Name, no more fear of judgment. LIFE ETERNAL! (if they did not fall away, of course, as written)

These were people who knew Jesus personally, I'm talking about Jewish people now...

Yet God is Always Right.
He May not have been the one who started the idea that 'hell' was unending torment. That looks like pagan idea brought to christianity by false teachers.

If I was a deity in control of everything, I'd also always be right. Why not start people in heaven to begin with? Why do this Adam and Eve crap? God seems to be adding extra steps for no reason. If Adam and Eve didn't mess with that tree that was put right in front of them (for some reason), we probably wouldn't know of Jesus because the human race wouldn't be so screwed up. I could keep going, but this is why the Bible just doesn't work as this literal history book. Most of the stories work as allegorical things, not literal things. Otherwise, the leviathan and behemoth would probably still be around, or at least their remains would be.

 

[Aaron112]

If anyone rejects Jesus' Word, Jesus Says they reject Him also.

 

[Cerraco]

If anyone rejects Jesus' Word, Jesus Says they reject Him also.

My response in the other thread was put there by mistake, but I stand by what I said, you keep resetting the conversation to what the Bible's rules are and ignoring massive points I make. It's like you're trying to argue on easy mode or something.

You also said this:

People who listen to Jesus do not think about/follow religion. If someone dies today, it may be in human time many years before they are "before God"/judgment day. So he won't be going anywhere except the grave, until he is resurrected.

I have no idea what the first sentence is supposed to mean. So the guy in my example, despite being a loving person (and would easily believe in God if there was more direct proof for him) he doesn't get to go to heaven? He just gets a void nothingness?

 

[Aaron112]

The natural man cannot comprehend God nor His Word.

KJ21
For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
ASV
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
AMP
For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense.

 

[Cerraco]

Aaron, do you also believe the world is 6,000 years old?

 

[throughfierytrial]

I always found the "God's plan" thing to be a thought blanket. Something that makes people feel better. It is very easy for someone to think to themselves, "This bad stuff happened to me because of God's plan!" instead of understanding that it happened because it just happened. Another thing I see on this forum is threads where people say, "I had a bad thought against God, I'm so going to hell!" This is why I'm not religious, because logic and religion are two concepts that are so far apart that I can't even begin to explain it. Given the rules here, what I can talk about is very limited.

Like I probably described in a few others threads, I went to a macho, alpha redpilled forum for some dating advice, and due to me being a 36-year-old virgin, I was made to feel unspeakably terrible and self-conscious. It opened my eyes to how the world really is, what the world really wants and should want, and it worried me so much that I was in this half-conscious state, that's how bad it was. The world is trapped in high school. I will probably stay alone forever because of how the world works and thinks. Then that led me to why God creates people. Why? Some people are set up to fail. I've actually seen someone reply with "If you don't believe that Christ died for our sins and X, Y and Z, you go to a lake of fire." which is quite possibly the most disgusting and infuriating thing I've ever read. So that means people raised differently are going straight to hell because... they were raised differently? Okay. Cool, what a way to go through life, just assume that 90% of people walking around on Earth are gonna suffer for eternity because they don't think a certain way. Boy, what a loving God, right?

You don't get to have this forgiving, all-loving God but oh by the way he eternally punishes people for what their beliefs are, so pick the right one. You might as say that the Empire State Building is the same thing as a spoon. I never understood how faith works. Even when I was in kindergarten, I looked forward to getting old and dying eventually because I'd be done with that Earth crap and just go to straight to heaven, hopefully, if it existed. We all have lives we didn't ask for. Over 4 billion people do not have a unique purpose in this life, especially when a lot of them are invisible people, and some who die young before any impact was made. What was God's plan then?

God does not seem to be very good at his job, and by that, I mean he seems to be nightmarishly bad at his job. He knows the future right? So he already knows who's going to heaven and hell before they're even born, meaning some people are set up to fail. God is writing strawman as actual living people. One could say, "God doesn't have a plan for some people because those people don't believe/haven't given themselves up to God yet!" Then why did God create them in the first place, even if he knows they will not be religious? Why expect someone to root for your team when you know ahead of time they won't? Also, what are the mechanics? God waits for people to "get busy", then puts a soul in a fetus at the right time? This is why atheists exist, because the logic just doesn't click together. Where do people get the God's plan mode of thought from?

I would like to help you understand Christianity better, but I'm not sure of your current stance. You say that you once believed that this world view is bleak and welcomed death b/c this meant you'd pass on straight to heaven...so were you raised in a Christian home as a youngster? You believed in heaven and hell... someone explained that to you
Did you believe that heaven was meant only for those with faith in Christ Jesus? This faith...only in Jesus as your Savior...is due to the fact that we ALL are born in sin and deserve hell. BUT, Jesus took on our punishment even after living a perfect life ...He knew no sin even though born into a sin-cursed world. This perfection, holiness, He imputes to those who put their hope in Him as their dear Father and Redeemer.

We are born into a sin cursed world...that's a bleak world with very bleak future prospects indeed. But once we grasp onto the hope He offers us, which is by way of faith, Jesus promises in the Scriptures that we have passed from death/hell to life/salvation! The joy this knowledge brings us changes us in many ways. This change occurs because He grants us the Comforter, the Advocate, our teacher, this is The Holy Spirit. We are born again this way and the life we live is a life led through the eyes of the Scriptures' teachings...we find joy in His instruction. God Himself loves us so much that He tenderly, patiently teaches us and fathers us.

We are each unique and grow at differing paces through our readings and practicing what we read and how we put this knowledge into practice in our unique life experiences and circumstances.

You are wrong in saying that some are automatically destined to hell if they weren't raised right...short time or long conversion to Christianity leading to salvation is possible. It's all at God's own will and power. He knows those who are His, He calls them...so yes, predestination is a true doctrine and difficult for us to grasp...in the end, you accept it because He tells us; our Father so instructs. Everyone has a chance at heaven. God knows each man's heart. Don't make the terrible mistake of being too proud to humble yourself and learn from Him. God tells us we are by nature stubborn and proud, etc. Therefore, do the hard thing...humble yourself enough to read and study and try to make sense of the Bible...put it to the test.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Dude, why do you keep splitting up your posts into multiple posts? Why..? Also, yeah, healing stuff is pretty easy for a deity. That one's easy to figure out. I don't think you understood the point I was driving at when I talked about cancer and people being gay.

These were people who knew Jesus personally, I'm talking about Jewish people now...

If I was a deity in control of everything, I'd also always be right. Why not start people in heaven to begin with? Why do this Adam and Eve crap? God seems to be adding extra steps for no reason. If Adam and Eve didn't mess with that tree that was put right in front of them (for some reason), we probably wouldn't know of Jesus because the human race wouldn't be so screwed up. I could keep going, but this is why the Bible just doesn't work as this literal history book. Most of the stories work as allegorical things, not literal things. Otherwise, the leviathan and behemoth would probably still be around, or at least their remains would be.

I could be wrong, but I suppose in "Heaven," being it's a perfect state of existence, there is no test for our autonomy. And similarly to a person who wants to drink filtered water, God wants autonomous children who have been tested and who have chosen to be relationally compatible with Him by laying down their whole person before His grace and mercy.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Yeah, you got that right... Kinda goes without saying.

(God does something good.) = "Thank you, God!"
(God does something awful.) = "Well... he works in mysterious ways I guess..."

Talk about a cop out. So if you have cancer, or a homosexual or have any other type of issue... God just... heals you when he feels it. Almost ruins the point of praying and sucking up to him. Sounds more like a gamble. Also, why are you capitalizing every single word of your posts..??


That depends on if you choose to believe that book or not. I even think the word "assures" is pretty strong in this case. And what happens when if you're raised under the Jewish faith and believe Jesus was not the messiah? Straight to hell, right? Born in the wrong place and the wrong time? If the answer is yes to the hell thing, then no, your God is not as loving as he says he is.

Edit: Another point I want to make is what I get from atheist NDEs, which sound a lot more pleasant than some of the fairy-tale sounding stuff that the Bible says. People that got to enter heaven anyway because they weren't judged on beliefs. There are also people out there that gave up on their faith because they maybe they were dead for a while and saw nothing.

I was like you with the same questions many years ago. When I reached the book of John In the new testament, I had a vision, there is no way for me now not to believe in Christ. It is all true. You just have to absorb it gradually it will change you but you have to keep an open mind.

In essence, God created us in His image ( JOHN chapter 17 tells you why he did so, there is a purpose) but gives choice into everything we do. He wants to know who will be faithful and love him. Will you answer the call?