Jesus & James

[tdidymas]

No, its a sound and healthy and knowledgeable respect for God's justice, mercy, love, sanity and the purpose of the sacrifice of His Son combined with a humble acknowledgement of our own weaknesses and limitiations, taking all of Scripture into acount along with the historic understanding of Christianity. He's not the wildcard; we are. And if you think your faith alone permanently immunizes you from either the potential for commiting sin, or its consequences, you've failed to properly understand the gospel.

I disagree. It sounds to me like you don't believe that a faith relationship with God and the grace that God "infuses" into a person actually and permanently changes the disposition of that person's heart and causes them to walk the right path in a persistent and persevering way. Further, a person can have a healthy respect for God while knowing that they cannot lose eternal life. It's like you said in a previous response, that you think the idea of justification by faith alone leads to antinomianism. I get that it's because you simply do not believe that God's grace really and permanently changes a person into a new creation. This is where our paths diverge.

 

[tdidymas]

God can do it however He sees fit, according to his wisdom and will, for our highest good. As the Church correctly teaches:

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without Him we can do nothing.51

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from Him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of His grace. The fatherly action of God is first on His own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

This looks like so near yet so far. The premise in this whole quote is in the 1993 paragraph, which makes grace out to be insufficient to save a person. The premise is called synergism, where God "helps" man to make choices favorable to the gospel, and therefore the energy expressed in the salvation of a person comes both from God and from that person (via his "free will") - is this not so, which the Catholic church teaches? I don't buy it.

 

[tdidymas]

Trent doesn't treat it as a "mere mental exercise or theoretical truth", but neither is faith sufficient on its own. Augustine put it this way:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

And Paul:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

Of course, it assumes that the term "faith" in these verses have exactly the same meaning as "faith" in other verses which indicate that we are justified by it. I disagree with you, and the difference is the kind of faith that is being described in each passage. The nuances of words (or even definitions) depend on their usage in context.

But when you claim faith is not sufficient, you are treating it as if there is really nothing to it but a mental exercise. And Paul's statement in 1 Cor. 13:2 is showing that there is a kind of faith (as James concurs) that is not associated with salvation.

Anyway, these issues will always bring us to disagreement, so I think I'm done here.

 

[tdidymas]

Yes, forgivness is a gift; it actually flows from the gift of love, as He has loved us. But it's also a gift that can be rejected as with any gift-again, we're not puppets. And that's why Jesus told us we must forgive. Otherwise He wouldn't have needed to tell us- would just do it.

My point is that forgiveness is unconditional. If not, then one must merit it. Then grace is not grace.

 

[fhansen]

I disagree. It sounds to me like you don't believe that a faith relationship with God and the grace that God "infuses" into a person actually and permanently changes the disposition of that person's heart and causes them to walk the right path in a persistent and persevering way. Further, a person can have a healthy respect for God while knowing that they cannot lose eternal life. It's like you said in a previous response, that you think the idea of justification by faith alone leads to antinomianism. I get that it's because you simply do not believe that God's grace really and permanently changes a person into a new creation. This is where our paths diverge.

Our paths diverge at the human will, whether or not it can still shipwreck our faith. Again, God is always trustworthy and true. Will we be so? Will we persevere?

“It is the grace of God that helps the wills of men; and when they are not helped by it, the reason is in themselves, not in God.” St Augustine

 

[fhansen]

My point is that forgiveness is unconditional. If not, then one must merit it. Then grace is not grace.

Foergiveness is a beautiful thing-and it should produce change in people. And it can and does in real life-and even outside of our Christian faith as well. But if I slap you in the face a hundred times and you forgive me a hundred times and there is still no change in me-I keep slapping-at some point you have to give up on me-or grow to like it, I guess ? God seeks but doesn't force change-to be more than just a forgiven sinner-in us. That's the way grace works.

 

[fhansen]

But when you claim faith is not sufficient, you are treating it as if there is really nothing to it but a mental exercise. And Paul's statement in 1 Cor. 13:2 is showing that there is a kind of faith (as James concurs) that is not associated with salvation.

No, it only means that more is required of us than faith, as essential as it is. Again, faith is the beginning of a journey, not the end. Some will have only a short journey or opportunity within which to work out their salvation, some are given more time. God judges it all by the heart at the end of the day.

 

[fhansen]

This looks like so near yet so far. The premise in this whole quote is in the 1993 paragraph, which makes grace out to be insufficient to save a person. The premise is called synergism, where God "helps" man to make choices favorable to the gospel, and therefore the energy expressed in the salvation of a person comes both from God and from that person (via his "free will") - is this not so, which the Catholic church teaches? I don't buy it.

Again, the CC teaches that grace is resistible. We cannot move ourselves to God; we're lost. He must intiate; He must call and prompt and show us the way. But we can still say "no". We wouldn't need the bible or revelation at all otherwise-let alone all the centuries of human drama- of strife and struggle and suffering- if He were just going to do it all for us anyway. As it is we're prodigals who must become sufficiently sick of the godless pigsty we live in so that we might be all the more ready to say "yes" when the Father calls. Everything in this life is oriented towards that yes. But we can remain in our prideful rebellion-or turn back to it later on.

 

[fhansen]

I disagree with your premise, which is this statement:
"The idea that there is a one-time permanent state of justice, meaning salvation, that one enters into by the act of faith is wrong."
Here is where our paths diverge. No amount of persuasive words you say would ever convince me of your premise. I stand on what the Bible teaches me, which I have iterated before, and will not reiterate. This means that if I have to confess this premise as a Catholic, then I could never be a Catholic. This premise in my view is unbiblical and does not hold to the gospel of grace. I think it's time for us to part ways here.

Sorry, no OSAS. Again, we can have a strong level of assurance based mainly on our fruit but never 100% certainty-that's God's province. And Scripture gives both sides of that coin. As far as church teachings are concerned I've presented much of the grace side-and more can be found from the 529 AD council (that Trent also draws from) here as well if interested: The Canons of the Second Council of Orange (529)

But here's more on the human side. The fact that man is a morally accountable being must not be dismissed:

1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it:

We all want to live happily; in the whole human race there is no one who does not assent to this proposition, even before it is fully articulated.13
How is it, then, that I seek you, Lord? Since in seeking you, my God, I seek a happy life, let me seek you so that my soul may live, for my body draws life from my soul and my soul draws life from you.14
God alone satisfies.15

1723 The beatitude we are promised confronts us with decisive moral choices. It invites us to purify our hearts of bad instincts and to seek the love of God above all else. It teaches us that true happiness is not found in riches or well-being, in human fame or power, or in any human achievement - however beneficial it may be - such as science, technology, and art, or indeed in any creature, but in God alone, the source of every good and of all love:

All bow down before wealth. Wealth is that to which the multitude of men pay an instinctive homage. They measure happiness by wealth; and by wealth they measure respectability. . . . It is a homage resulting from a profound faith . . . that with wealth he may do all things. Wealth is one idol of the day and notoriety is a second. . . . Notoriety, or the making of a noise in the world - it may be called "newspaper fame" - has come to be considered a great good in itself, and a ground of veneration.24

MAN'S FREEDOM

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27
I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

1739 Freedom and sin. Man's freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God's plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.

1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."37

1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God,
in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,
so that, made ready both in mind and body,
we may freely accomplish your will.38

 

[tdidymas]

Foergiveness is a beautiful thing-and it should produce change in people. And it can and does in real life-and even outside of our Christian faith as well. But if I slap you in the face a hundred times and you forgive me a hundred times and there is still no change in me-I keep slapping-at some point you have to give up on me-or grow to like it, I guess ? God seeks but doesn't force change-to be more than just a forgiven sinner-in us. That's the way grace works.

I disagree with you. Paul defined grace this way: "Even while we were dead in transgressions and sin, He raised us up to life and seated us in the heavenly places in Christ (by grace we are saved)". Yet you don't think that God forgives, saves, raises up, and directs with power and with mighty force. It sounds to me like your kind of 'grace' is limp and unbiblical.

 

[tdidymas]

No, it only means that more is required of us than faith, as essential as it is. Again, faith is the beginning of a journey, not the end. Some will have only a short journey or opportunity within which to work out their salvation, some are given more time. God judges it all by the heart at the end of the day.

"more is required" - you mean to be saved, right?

 

[tdidymas]

Again, the CC teaches that grace is resistible. We cannot move ourselves to God; we're lost. He must intiate; He must call and prompt and show us the way. But we can still say "no". We wouldn't need the bible or revelation at all otherwise-let alone all the centuries of human drama- of strife and struggle and suffering- if He were just going to do it all for us anyway. As it is we're prodigals who must become sufficiently sick of the godless pigsty we live in so that we might be all the more ready to say "yes" when the Father calls. Everything in this life is oriented towards that yes. But we can remain in our prideful rebellion-or turn back to it later on.

Irresistable grace was taught by Augustine. Yet, I think you like quoting him only when it's convenient to your dogma. No, I don't agree. Peter clearly states that we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation.

 

[tdidymas]

Sorry, no OSAS. Again, we can have a strong level of assurance based mainly on our fruit but never 100% certainty-that's God's province. And Scripture gives both sides of that coin. As far as church teachings are concerned I've presented much of the grace side-and more can be found from the 529 AD council (that Trent also draws from) here as well if interested: The Canons of the Second Council of Orange (529)

But here's more on the human side. The fact that man is a morally accountable being must not be dismissed:

1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it:

We all want to live happily; in the whole human race there is no one who does not assent to this proposition, even before it is fully articulated.13
How is it, then, that I seek you, Lord? Since in seeking you, my God, I seek a happy life, let me seek you so that my soul may live, for my body draws life from my soul and my soul draws life from you.14
God alone satisfies.15

1723 The beatitude we are promised confronts us with decisive moral choices. It invites us to purify our hearts of bad instincts and to seek the love of God above all else. It teaches us that true happiness is not found in riches or well-being, in human fame or power, or in any human achievement - however beneficial it may be - such as science, technology, and art, or indeed in any creature, but in God alone, the source of every good and of all love:

All bow down before wealth. Wealth is that to which the multitude of men pay an instinctive homage. They measure happiness by wealth; and by wealth they measure respectability. . . . It is a homage resulting from a profound faith . . . that with wealth he may do all things. Wealth is one idol of the day and notoriety is a second. . . . Notoriety, or the making of a noise in the world - it may be called "newspaper fame" - has come to be considered a great good in itself, and a ground of veneration.24

MAN'S FREEDOM

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27
I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

1739 Freedom and sin. Man's freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God's plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.

1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."37

1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God,
in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,
so that, made ready both in mind and body,
we may freely accomplish your will.38

I'm tired of your Trent dogmas, so I'm not reading them any more. You can follow councils, popes, and other men if you like.

 

[fhansen]

I'm tired of your Trent dogmas, so I'm not reading them any more. You can follow councils, popes, and other men if you like.

Of course...and as you wish. But you brought Trent up originally and those teachings from my post that you're referring to here aren't from Trent anyway- but came courtesy of the current Catechism of the Catholic Church and both sources simply reflect the wisdom of the Christian ages distilled.

 

[fhansen]

"more is required" - you mean to be saved, right?

Yep, to enter into full sonship of God to put it another way.

 

[fhansen]

I disagree with you. Paul defined grace this way: "Even while we were dead in transgressions and sin, He raised us up to life and seated us in the heavenly places in Christ (by grace we are saved)". Yet you don't think that God forgives, saves, raises up, and directs with power and with mighty force. It sounds to me like your kind of 'grace' is limp and unbiblical.

Only if God's grace is limp and unbiblical. I believe God uses grace however He wants, plenty enough to raise you and keep you there-unless you want to come back down anyway. Heck, Rom 1 tells us that creation, alone, should be enough to bring us to belief in Him-but many won't turn anyway.

 

[tdidymas]

Of course...and as you wish. But you brought Trent up originally and those teachings from my post that you're referring to here aren't from Trent anyway- but came courtesy of the current Catechism of the Catholic Church and both sources simply reflect the wisdom of the Christian ages distilled.

I say it's the wisdom of men, not the wisdom that comes from God, as I have explained previously.

 

[tdidymas]

Yep, to enter into full sonship of God to put ir another way.

That's what I thought. Your version of the 'gospel' is that people must merit grace by good works.

 

[tdidymas]

Only if God's grace is limp and unbiblical. I believe God uses grace however He wants, plenty enough to raise you and keep you there-unless you want to come back down anyway. Heck, Rom 1 tells us that creation, alone, should be enough to bring us to belief in Him-but many won't turn anyway.

Your logic is impeccable as far as natural human reasoning goes. But Paul in 1 Cor. 2 says that natural man can't understand or receive the things of the Spirit. It takes a spiritual person made spiritual by God to accept the true gospel of grace. So your response reveals something about your belief: it reveals that you really do not believe that one born of God is a new creature and that his "wanter" has been changed by the sovereign act of God. I really do believe that you disagree with the apostle John in 1 Jn. 3:9.

 

[fhansen]

That's what I thought. Your version of the 'gospel' is that people must merit grace by good works.

No, both of our versions require that a righteousness not our own be freely given us in order to be jusitfied, and therefore saved. The righteousness that you believe in is merely declared, amounting to forgivness of sins only, while the Christian version is that actual righteousness is given while sins are also forgiven. Because real righteousness is part of our being justified, we can also forfeit it, by turning back to the flesh and living unjustly. We're responsible to embrace and act upon the gifts, the grace, given.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

"The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 5:20-21

"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires." Rom 6:11-12

"What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:21-22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13