Jesus & James

[fhansen]

There is a difference between imposing the interpretation of experience on scripture in an attempt to make scripture say the same thing, and extracting truth from scripture and then evaluating experience to interpret experience by the truth of scripture. The former of these is the whole problem with most church dogmas, doctrines, catechisms, and such which end up as doctrines of men. This is why there is so much controversy, especially over the most basic and fundamental ideas about salvation. My view of Catholicism and Orthodoxy is that errors of past Christian writers have been allowed to creep into the teachings of the churches, and now what is seen is a caricature of Christianity.

Whatever. It's only very, very good when Scripture is confirmed by experience. And while the gospel is foolishness to the world it's anything but irrational.

 

[fhansen]

No, the "ifs" are written to separate the true from the false. Jesus said, "Those who are of the truth listen to Me."

It depends on how much we value, and continue to value, truth. To the extent that we do, we follow.

 

[fhansen]

No, they are not "distinctions without a difference." The fact that a person becomes apostate is proof positive he does not believe, nor ever did. "Not everyone who calls Me 'Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven." 'Shall enter' means they didn't enter, even when calling Him 'Lord.'

'Shall enter' means they didn't enter? I think He was speaking of the next life there. They obviously thought that they'd entered His fold in any case- which means the message of Matt 7:21 can potentially apply to anyone who calls Him Lord.

The difference is the agenda of the person calling Jesus "Lord." If they are really seeking God and His will, seeking to know Him, willing to go through whatever trial He puts him through, even like Job, such a person proves his faith and thus proves he is born of God. If they are just seeking to escape judgment by calling Jesus "Lord," they won't have faith that endures, and will fall away like the seed on the wayside. "The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." If someone has no interest in such an experience, then can they really say they are God's elect? Whether they are or aren't would be beyond their knowledge.

Whether they are or are not is beyond any human being's knowledge in the perfect, absolute sense. But, yes, again, good fruit is the best evidence. If we find ourselves feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, counseling and consoling the hopeless and doubtful, visitng the sick or prisioners, sharing the Good News in word and action, forgiving others their tresspasses and debts, opposing injustice, accepting the down and outers, addicts, homeless, overcoming sin, loving God and neighbor in general, then there's a real good probablity we're one of His. We can't assume that a believer will necessarily do such things, however; that's not real life. We can reject the promptings of the Spirit, we can fail to persevere.

 

[tdidymas]

So we who are of the truth do not listen to forum chatter. We run from it! (keep a distance from it, don't believe it nor trust it)

Right. If you follow scripture as the highest authority in your life, then everything else is taken with a grain of salt. But the scripture also says that one who refuses correction is a fool. So if you don't at least listen to someone else and weigh what the scripture says (and what it actually means), then the scripture judges you as unteachable and a fool, does it not?

 

[tdidymas]

You've got the cart ahead of the horse-and not all Protestant theology agrees with your's here, as you probably know. And salvation is ultimately known when God judges us at the end. And the criterion will be on how we loved, born out by how we lived, once touched by Him. Obedience comes as we respond first to the gift of faith, as we say "yes" to God, IOW, From there a relationship, a union, exists within which I work out my salvation with even more grace given, unless I depart again. This is why salvation is expressed as being a past, present, and future event in the bible. At justification we're all His, and heaven bound. But depending on the time, opportunity, and what we do with grace given, we can compromise that status, that relationship, we can mock God and His justice/righteousness and grace by living a life opposed to them/Him.

Again, are you saying that a believer cannot sin, cannot become a slave to sin again? You rejected the puppet or automaton concept but is that what you're saying after all?

No, I don't accept your straw man arguments, and you're the one with the "cart before the horse." The horse is salvation by grace, pulling the cart which is your life in Christ. The "faith + works" scenario is you, the cart, pushing the horse (the power of God). No, God's power pulls you in, you don't pull God in.

 

[Aaron112]

no.

 

[tdidymas]

"My" idea is only what Sola Fide folks often report to me. And Ps 32:2 actually makes it sound as if no deceit was found in the person to begin with, but either way, which is it then?? Is the person given righteousness in some manner, which is consistent with the teachings of the ancient churches, or are they only aquitted and delcared to be righteous at justificaton? I would only welcome the former because that position is still consistent with the early church teachings, but I know that's not the case for many, who profess novel theologies now.

Apparently you're of the camp that recognizes that real, personal righteousness is an intrinsic part of being justified-but that we will not be judged on that obedience/righteousness? And that we cannot lose or compromise it-that we cannot sin???

You should not confuse the sheep/goats judgment with the righteous rewards judgment. It's two separate judgments. The one at the great white throne is the sheep/goats judgment where sheep will be rewarded and goats will be cast into the lake of fire. The righteous reward judgment is before Jesus on His Bema mercy seat where He rewards all the righteous for their deeds.

What your "ancient churches" say that is opposed to Paul's teaching is the "faith + works" scenario for obtaining justification. If Christ's work of redemption is sufficient to save whoever believes, then no work is needed to add to Christ's work to save. Hebrews is the epistle that explains the sufficiency of Christ's work, which is assumed in all the NT epistles.

And you have yet to answer my quote of Paul: "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" - can you exegete this verse to obtain your "faith + works" scenario for justification? I think not. But the writer of Hebrews concurs, since he also says (4:10), "For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His." The works he is talking about is the works one does to obtain justification and eternal life.

 

[tdidymas]

'Shall enter' means they didn't enter? I think He was speaking of the next life there. They obviously thought that they'd entered His fold in any case- which means the message of Matt 7:21 can potentially apply to anyone who calls Him Lord.

No, it applies to those who don't do His will. Many think they are saved by parroting "Jesus is Lord," or performing the rite of baptism or receiving the Eucharist, but if they don't believe as Jesus and the apostles describe it, they have no cause to feel secure.

Whether they are or are not is beyond any human being's knowledge in the perfect, absolute sense. But, yes, again, good fruit is the best evidence. If we find ourselves feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, counseling and consoling the hopeless and doubtful, visitng the sick or prisioners, sharing the Good News in word and action, forgiving others their tresspasses and debts, opposing injustice, accepting the down and outers, addicts, homeless, overcoming sin, loving God and neighbor in general, then there's a real good probablity we're one of His. We can't assume that a believer will necessarily do such things, however; that's not real life. We can reject the promptings of the Spirit, we can fail to persevere.

God knows those who are His. And we are all exhorted by the apostles to make sure we are the elect of God. If a born-again believer is stubborn and fights all God's chastisement, then won't God take him home prematurely? Will he not be shamed at Christ's coming or his appearing before Him? Won't his reward be small? 1 Cor. 3 concerning the work of ministry and those who build with wood, hay, and straw: "he shall be saved, yet so as through fire." Fighting chastisement doesn't mean no discipline. Without discipline means that God is not working on the character, and such a person is "bastard." These judgments are not written for us to judge others, but rather for us to judge ourselves by the truth of scripture.

 

[fhansen]

So we who are of the truth do not listen to forum chatter. We run from it! (keep a distance from it, don't believe it nor trust it)

Right. If you follow scripture as the highest authority in your life, then everything else is taken with a grain of salt. But the scripture also says that one who refuses correction is a fool. So if you don't at least listen to someone else and weigh what the scripture says (and what it actually means), then the scripture judges you as unteachable and a fool, does it not?

I agree with this. It's very frustrating to quote Scripture over and over again (and add historical sources as well) only to have it ignored or cherry picked for whatever tickles the person's ears. Then on top of that we have folks of various stripes and denominations disagreeing with each other over some of these same matters while all going by Scripture alone and claiming to be Spirit-led. At some point it makes you want to shake the dust off your feet and move on-but one hopes some will respond to the full gospel truth.

 

[fhansen]

No, I don't accept your straw man arguments, and you're the one with the "cart before the horse." The horse is salvation by grace, pulling the cart which is your life in Christ. The "faith + works" scenario is you, the cart, pushing the horse (the power of God). No, God's power pulls you in, you don't pull God in.

Is there some reason you can't answer a simple question-that might at least resolve some of this?

"Again, are you saying that a believer cannot sin, cannot become a slave to sin again? You rejected the puppet or automaton concept but is that what you're saying after all?"

 

[fhansen]

No, it applies to those who don't do His will. Many think they are saved by parroting "Jesus is Lord," or performing the rite of baptism or receiving the Eucharist, but if they don't believe as Jesus and the apostles describe it, they have no cause to feel secure.

Yes, or many think they are saved by nothing more than the sheer act of believing-as if that, alone, satisfies God's will for man and have arrived at the silly conclusion that our obedience and righteousness have nothing to do with the matter of salvation.

God knows those who are His

Yes, and He, alone, with perfect certainy.

And we are all exhorted by the apostles to make sure we are the elect of God.

Yes, we must strive- to make our calling and election sure.

 

[fhansen]

You should not confuse the sheep/goats judgment with the righteous rewards judgment.

I would never do that. We don't put much emphasis on the rewards thing to begin with, and the bible doesn't mention it much either. The criteria for separating the sheep and the goats, in identifying the sheep as belonging to God, was in what they did or failed to do, pointing, again, to their love or lack of it.

 

[fhansen]

What your "ancient churches" say that is opposed to Paul's teaching is the "faith + works" scenario for obtaining justification.

Nope, you haven't been listening.

And you have yet to answer my quote of Paul: "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" - can you exegete this verse to obtain your "faith + works" scenario for justification? I think not. But the writer of Hebrews concurs, since he also says (4:10), "For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His." The works he is talking about is the works one does to obtain justification and eternal life.

I believe I answered it somewhere, probably more than one way, in fact, but too many posts in between…so…

We’ve already agreed that man is justified, made just, freely, not by any works of the law, not by anything man can do. And we’ve also agreed that this justice, this righteousness, consists of more than forgiveness of sin and a declaration of innocence but also of righteousness given in some manner. We're made just, as new creations. And I think we agree that a person will not enter heaven with at least persistent egregious sin, since, in your mind that would mean he’s not a true believer to begin with and in my mind that would mean he may have been a believer but departed far from the Way, from Christ. Either way we both agree that the unrighteous won’t be making it into heaven. And Romans 6, exhorting us throughout to be slaves to righteousness and not to sin, agrees:

“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:22

So, can a true believer sin?

 

[David Lamb]

You've got the cart ahead of the horse-and not all Protestant theology agrees with your's here, as you probably know. And salvation is ultimately known when God judges us at the end.

Not so, otherwise these words of John would make no sense:

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” (1Jo 5:13 NKJV)

 

[fhansen]

Not so, otherwise these words of John would make no sense:

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” (1Jo 5:13 NKJV)

They make sense without presuming that every person down through the centuries who's ever heard those words and applied them to themselves was/is necessarily saved-and I doubt that even John would've believed that. They're words of encourangment and exhortation, and there are many such words in the bible along with words of warning, admonishment, etc. We must also strive as Paul did, we must be vigilant as the virgins were, we must make effort as Jesus' burden is light while not nonexistent, we must pick up our cross daily, we must persevere, we must be aware of our part, our responsibility in it all, no matter how small relatively speaking. We are not puppets, and even John's letters as well give criteria by which we can examine ourselves to see how we line up with God's will for man. We can have a strong and healthy level of assurance based on that self-examination, on our fruit and on changes within ourselves, IOW, but not some kind of absolute certainty. It's all grace-without which we cannot possibly be saved -and yet we have a part that He wants us to play in accepting and acting upon that grace so that these verses, as an example, compliment each other:

"We love Him, because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19

"Draw near to God and He will draw near to you". James 4:8

It's much like myself with a drug addict friend of mine. I'll alway be there for her with the love and acceptance and support she needs, and needs to know about, but will she really keep caring enough for it to make a difference at the end of the day? Is that love enough-to make a change, to keep her near?

 

[tdidymas]

I agree with this. It's very frustrating to quote Scripture over and over again (and add historical sources as well) only to have it ignored or cherry picked for whatever tickles the person's ears. Then on top of that we have folks of various stripes and denominations disagreeing with each other over some of these same matters while all going by Scripture alone and claiming to be Spirit-led. At some point it makes you want to shake the dust off your feet and move on-but one hopes some will respond to the full gospel truth.

The heart of the gospel, which is justification by faith alone, is what we are debating. But please look in the mirror when you reread what you wrote here.

 

[fhansen]

The heart of the gospel, which is justification by faith alone, is what we are debating. But please look in the mirror when you reread what you wrote here.

Funny, that's exactly what I was thinking about you when I wrote that

 

[tdidymas]

Is there some reason you can't answer a simple question-that might at least resolve some of this?

"Again, are you saying that a believer cannot sin, cannot become a slave to sin again? You rejected the puppet or automaton concept but is that what you're saying after all?"

I have already answered this profusely in the past, but you have ignored it for reasons unknown. But I'll explain it again, just in case you finally decide to have an open mind.

1. John in 1 Jn. 3:9 says in black and white: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Either you agree with John, or you disagree with him. One reason you might disagree with him is because you don't understand what he said. You might not agree with what he said because you assume that you understand his statement, when you really don't.

2. Since John also said in 1 Jn. 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us," then in 3:9 he cannot possibly mean sinless perfection. The apostle does not speak with forked tongue.

3. What this has to be about is having an ongoing attitude of repentance. 1 Jn. 2:1 "If anyone sins..." gives hope that our abject failure to live up to God's glory will be rectified by God's promised forgiveness and guidance.

4. So then, 3:9 saying "cannot sin" means that the child of God continues in God's direction and can't go back into spiritual death, because "God's seed remains..." and he is protected by the power of God (1 Pet. 1:5). Therefore, it's about direction of life.

Is this an adequate answer?

 

[tdidymas]

Yes, or many think they are saved by nothing more than the sheer act of believing-as if that, alone, satisfies God's will for man and have arrived at the silly conclusion that our obedience and righteousness have nothing to do with the matter of salvation.

Don't base the doctrines of salvation on the misapplication of some people. I've already pointed out Rom. 3:8 where Paul condemns people who don't obey the gospel because they don't understand it. Paul did not adjust his doctrine according to peoples' misunderstanding. If God doesn't care about antinomians who continually misrepresent grace, then neither do I. My teaching does not accommodate them, just as Paul's teaching didn't either. Yet, James did accommodate them.

And my contention is that Paul and James are not in disagreement, so it would be advantageous to determine how to interpret their statements in a way that they are not in disagreement:
Rom. 3:28 "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from works of the law."
Ja. 2:24 "So you see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
What did the authors mean by these statements, and how are they not disagreeing? This is the whole question of this thread.

Yes, and He, alone, with perfect certainy.

You are uncertain (as the pope is), because you don't believe in the "sure and certain hope" of God's promise. (Heb. 6:19)

Yes, we must strive- to make our calling and election sure.

It's the same striving that Hebrews describes as entering rest - ceasing from labor (to be saved).

 

[tdidymas]

Nope, you haven't been listening.

I have been paying lots of attention, even when you ignore things I say.

I believe I answered it somewhere, probably more than one way, in fact, but too many posts in between…so…

We’ve already agreed that man is justified, made just, freely, not by any works of the law, not by anything man can do. And we’ve also agreed that this justice, this righteousness, consists of more than forgiveness of sin and a declaration of innocence but also of righteousness given in some manner. We're made just, as new creations. And I think we agree that a person will not enter heaven with at least persistent egregious sin, since, in your mind that would mean he’s not a true believer to begin with and in my mind that would mean he may have been a believer but departed far from the Way, from Christ. Either way we both agree that the unrighteous won’t be making it into heaven. And Romans 6, exhorting us throughout to be slaves to righteousness and not to sin, agrees:

“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:22

So, can a true believer sin?

No, in conversations with me, you have not answered it previously, and you have not agreed that man is justified by faith alone, and not by anything a man can do. Rather, you previously agreed that salvation (IOW, justification) is obtained by faith + works. I know you haven't agreed, because in previous discussions I made it clear that if a man is justified, he is saved, in which you did not object to that. Therefore, it appears to me here that you are changing your tune. It looks now like you are agreeing that a man is justified by faith alone (but not by a kind of faith that is merely imaginary).

Ok, so if you agree that a man is justified by faith alone, and that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, then what exactly are you objecting to? And why this question "can a true believer sin"? What's this about?