Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[Valletta]

The Catholic Bible uses the word "mortal sin" where every other translations says "a sin leading to death."

False. First, there is not one "Catholic Bible." There are many Catholic translations and versions of the Bible. Second, there are non-Catholic Bibles that use the phrase "mortal sin."

 

[ozso]

I think my position fits the text far better than the Catholic position. The RCC goes out of its way to avoid admitting Mary had other children. While we cannot prove she did (or didn't), I think the most natural reading of the text is that she did. Only if you had a presupposition that she didn't would you conclude otherwise. I believe most of the Catholic beliefs about Mary developed centuries after her life. I believe that came about by men reasoning what they thought would be right. I don't believe their views were built on Scripture. They later returned to the Scriptures to try and defend their beliefs against critics. They thought of ways to explain away the common sense interpretation of the text.

Mary was built up to combat heresy against Christology.

 

[prodromos]

Mary was built up to combat heresy against Christology.

Kind of.
Mary was called Theotokos to defend the dual natures of Christ Jesus. Since Mary is completely human, her offspring is wholly human, but because Jesus is also God, then she is Mother of God. It is an entirely Christological title and does not elevate Mary above her humanity, otherwise Jesus would no longer be just as we are, albeit without sin.

 

[Valletta]

Mary was built up to combat heresy against Christology.

You were there?

 

[ozso]

Kind of.
Mary was called Theotokos to defend the dual natures of Christ Jesus. Since Mary is completely human, her offspring is wholly human, but because Jesus is also God, then she is Mother of God. It is an entirely Christological title and does not elevate Mary above her humanity, otherwise Jesus would no longer be just as we are, albeit without sin.

That's how it started. Then it kept growing from there.

 

[ozso]

You were there?

No, were you? I was told all about it from you and others in threads like this one.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Let me say that I don't believe in a distinction between "mortal" and "venial" sins. But I don't agree that the only sin that leads to death is unbelief. Romans 6:24 says:

“For the wages of sin [is] death, but the gift of God [is] eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Ro 6:23 NKJV)

It doesn't specify "the wages of the sin of unbelief."

All sin leads to death (spiritual) so I don't mean to say that only one sin leads to death. However, when Scripture talks about the "sin leading to death", I believe it means the sin of unbelief as opposed to a class of sins like "mortal sins." I don't believe Scripture makes such a distinction nor do I believe one can lose their salvation.

 

[Jan001]

All sin leads to death (spiritual) so I don't mean to say that only one sin leads to death. However, when Scripture talks about the "sin leading to death", I believe it means the sin of unbelief as opposed to a class of sins like "mortal sins." I don't believe Scripture makes such a distinction nor do I believe one can lose their salvation.

Jesus makes a distinction between sins that cause a person to lose his sanctifying grace and sins that don't. There are two degrees of sins. Catholics call these mortal sins and venial sins.

Matthew 7:3-5 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Matthew 5:21-24 “You have heard that it was said to those [a]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [b]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’[c] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, [d]‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of [e]hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

The council had the power to fine and then imprison a person until he paid all that he owed.

Matthew 5:25-26 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


Do you believe that a Christian is still saved if he does not provide for his relatives? I don't. This Christian is even worse than an unbeliever.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Hebrews 10:29

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Luke 6:46, Ezekiel 18:24

Of course, if this unrighteous person repents and confesses his sin, God will forgive him and he will be righteous again. 1 John 1:9

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Jesus makes a distinction between sins that cause a person to lose his sanctifying grace and sins that don't. There are two degrees of sins. Catholics call these mortal sins and venial sins.

Matthew 7:3-5 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Jesus is not making a distinction between degrees of sin in this passage. He is addressing the sin of self-righteousness. Those who are self-righteous feel superior to others and make themselves feel better by pointing on the sin of others. They are blinded by their self-righteousness. They cannot see clearly to help their brother because of this. They need to remove their self-righteousness first and then they can see clearly.

Matthew 5:21-24 “You have heard that it was said to those [a]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [b]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’[c] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, [d]‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of [e]hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

The council had the power to fine and then imprison a person until he paid all that he owed.

Matthew 5:25-26 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Again, this is not addressing different classes of sin. The legalistic Jews thought that sin was only outward actions. Jesus is pointing out that sin begins in the heart. Anger leads to murder. "Raca" means slander. Such a person could be brought before the Sanhedrin (the council). To call someone a fool is to judge him worthless and devoid of godliness. It is to murder the person with words and such an attitude can eventually lead to actual murder. Murder, like all sins, leads to hell. We are to repent of such sins and seek forgiveness. All sin leads to hell so this is not creating different classes of sin.

Do you believe that a Christian is still saved if he does not provide for his relatives?

I don't. This Christian is even worse than an unbeliever.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Hebrews 10:29

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Luke 6:46, Ezekiel 18:24

Of course, if this unrighteous person repents and confesses his sin, God will forgive him and he will be righteous again. 1 John 1:9

Saying someone is "worse than an unbeliever" is saying that even unbelievers will care for their own so how much more should a follower of Christ! It is not saying you lose your salvation. Your actions are a denial of what it means to be a believer but does not mean you have lost your salvation. The Titus passage speaks to those who "profess to know God." These are people who claim to be believers but aren't. Christians can indeed act worse than unbelievers at times. I have heard many non-Christians say all the Christians they know are hypocrites. It is to our shame they say this but they do not see their own hypocrisy and sin. We are works-in-progress and at times we act like unbelievers (or worse) and are hypocrites but are still saved. Peter acted worse than an unbeliever when he denied the Lord 3 times. He was a total hypocrite. The same when he would not eat with the Gentiles and Paul called him on it. Peter never lost his salvation and had to regain it. The same grace that saved him worked in him to bring about repentance. When God saves us, He changes us, and gives us a new nature that will lead to repentance.

Those who possess actual saving faith, will repent. We still sin and at times may sin in very bad ways but the Holy Spirit will lead us to repentance. We do not lose our salvation then regain it. If we never repent then it is evidence that we never had saving faith. We may one of those who "profess to know God" but we never truly knew Him. Such a person is the tares among the wheat.

 

[Jan001]

Jesus is not making a distinction between degrees of sin in this passage. He is addressing the sin of self-righteousness. Those who are self-righteous feel superior to others and make themselves feel better by pointing on the sin of others. They are blinded by their self-righteousness. They cannot see clearly to help their brother because of this. They need to remove their self-righteousness first and then they can see clearly.

Again, this is not addressing different classes of sin. The legalistic Jews thought that sin was only outward actions. Jesus is pointing out that sin begins in the heart. Anger leads to murder. "Raca" means slander. Such a person could be brought before the Sanhedrin (the council). To call someone a fool is to judge him worthless and devoid of godliness. It is to murder the person with words and such an attitude can eventually lead to actual murder. Murder, like all sins, leads to hell. We are to repent of such sins and seek forgiveness. All sin leads to hell so this is not creating different classes of sin.

There are two classes of sin. There is sin leading to death, aka mortal sin, and there is sin not leading to death, aka venial sin.

1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death (hellfire). I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Those who possess actual saving faith, will repent. We still sin and at times may sin in very bad ways but the Holy Spirit will lead us to repentance. We do not lose our salvation then regain it. If we never repent then it is evidence that we never had saving faith. We may one of those who "profess to know God" but we never truly knew Him. Such a person is the tares among the wheat.

The Holy Spirit will attempt to lead the sinner to repentance, but he will not force the sinner to repent. If the sinner chooses to remain in his sin(s) until his death, he will not inherit eternal life.

There are many Scripture verses which state that people can lose their salvation. The NT was written for believers. It warns the believers over and over to remain faithful until death if they desire to inherit eternal life after their death.

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 24:11-13 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.



1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

If Satan devours a Christian (succeeds in enticing him to do a sin which causes his spiritual death), the Christian is no longer saved. Ezekiel 33:12-13 He must repent before he physically dies if he wants to inherit eternal life in heaven. Ezekiel 33:14-16

1 John 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself (away from sin), and the wicked one does not touch him (because he has kept himself away from sin).

A person who truly loves God will choose to obey God's commandments. He does not sin against God's commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

There are two classes of sin. There is sin leading to death, aka mortal sin, and there is sin not leading to death, aka venial sin.

1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death (hellfire). I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

The Holy Spirit will attempt to lead the sinner to repentance, but he will not force the sinner to repent. If the sinner chooses to remain in his sin(s) until his death, he will not inherit eternal life.

There are many Scripture verses which state that people can lose their salvation. The NT was written for believers. It warns the believers over and over to remain faithful until death if they desire to inherit eternal life after their death.

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 24:11-13 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.



1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

If Satan devours a Christian (succeeds in enticing him to do a sin which causes his spiritual death), the Christian is no longer saved. Ezekiel 33:12-13 He must repent before he physically dies if he wants to inherit eternal life in heaven. Ezekiel 33:14-16

1 John 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself (away from sin), and the wicked one does not touch him (because he has kept himself away from sin).

A person who truly loves God will choose to obey God's commandments. He does not sin against God's commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

My short answer is that the NT was not just written for believers. It was written for all mankind. God can, and has, used the NT to bring non-believers to faith. Jesus spoke of the wheat and the tares in the church. The tares are those who outwardly look Christian but inwardly are not saved. Most of the tares think they are saved. Many things in the NT are a warning to the tares. It is telling them what real Christianity and real salvation look like. Real Christians repent. Real Christians persevere. Real Christians produce fruit. If you think you are a Christian, but these things are not true of you, then you had better reconsider your profession of faith. If you do, you will find it was not sincere, and you never made Jesus the Lord of your life. Telling someone to be faithful to death is not the same as saying they can lose their salvation. It is a true statement that if you are faithful to death, you will get the crown of life. That doesn't mean you may not be faithful. If you are true believer (wheat) you will be but if you are not (tare) you won't.

Man cannot see the heart and we often deceive ourselves. It is relatively easy to look the part and say the right things. How often are we shocked when people we thought were solid Christians are exposed as living in grave sin? Such people take up many places in the pews of our churches. If each church faithfully teaches the Scriptures, these tares will be warned over and over again that salvation is not merely saying the "magic words," or attending church every week, or giving money to the church, etc. Many people deceive themselves in this way. Yet, they still attend church and (hopefully) hear the Word of God preached. These verses are a wakeup call to them. A true believer will be faithful until death. A true believer will endure to the end.

I don't see these as warnings to believers about losing their salvation. I will write more on this, but I believe God predestines some to faith and those He predestines He perseveres to Heaven (yes, I am a Calvinist). I don't believe this is an essential doctrine though and if you believe you can lose your salvation be my guest. It changes nothing for me because I want to obey God and continue in the faith. Not because I am afraid of losing my salvation but because I love God. While I am confident, He will keep me that is not license to sin. As Paul wrote, "May it never be!" Assurance of salvation does not mean you quit worrying about sin and feel like it doesn't matter how you live. Some may think that way but if they do they have the wrong attitude!

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

False. First, there is not one "Catholic Bible." There are many Catholic translations and versions of the Bible. Second, there are non-Catholic Bibles that use the phrase "mortal sin."

I looked at quite a few translations and I only found two that translate it "mortal sin." Those are the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition and the New Revised Standard Version Anglican Edition. Neither the New Catholic Bible or the Duoay Rhiems Bible translate it as "mortal sin." Every other translations uses "deadly sin" or "sin leading to death" or something like that. The Bible does not define what this sin is but if you look at the context of John's epistle, he is warning against those who reject Jesus as Lord and Savior and as a result lose their love of the brethren. This makes sense as all sins can be forgiven except the sin of unbelief. Adultery can be forgiven. Murder can be forgiven. Unbelief cannot.

Whatever you think this sin may be, it is not explicitly defined nor described as a class of sins. It says "there is a sin that leads to death." It does not say "there are sins that lead to death." No list of "mortal" sins is every given.

 

[Jan001]

My short answer is that the NT was not just written for believers.

The NT was written for the first Christians to supplement the oral preaching of the apostles and disciples. We later Christians, if we understand it correctly, benefit from it. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

2 Peter 3:14-17 Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish; 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability.

I don't see these as warnings to believers about losing their salvation. I will write more on this, but I believe God predestines some to faith and those He predestines He perseveres to Heaven (yes, I am a Calvinist).

God desires all men to be saved, but all men do not inherit eternal life. Jesus gave himself a a ransom for all men, but not all men will inherit eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For
there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all
—this was attested at the right time.

God desires that no person go to hell, but many men will still go to hell.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

God desires for all men to be saved and he provided a way for all men to be saved, so what separates the righteous person from the unrighteous person?

The righteous person will be found faithful to God's commandments at the time of his death (Revelation 2:10), but the unrighteous person will not be found faithful to God's commandments at the time of his death. He neglected to repent of his sins before he died. 1 John 1:9


God gave each of us free will. How we use our free will in the body here on earth will determine whether we inherit the crown of eternal life in heaven (James 1:12) or suffer in the lake of fire forever and ever. Revelation 21:8

 

[Jan001]

I looked at quite a few translations and I only found two that translate it "mortal sin." Those are the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition and the New Revised Standard Version Anglican Edition. Neither the New Catholic Bible or the Duoay Rhiems Bible translate it as "mortal sin." Every other translations uses "deadly sin" or "sin leading to death" or something like that. The Bible does not define what this sin is but if you look at the context of John's epistle, he is warning against those who reject Jesus as Lord and Savior and as a result lose their love of the brethren. This makes sense as all sins can be forgiven except the sin of unbelief. Adultery can be forgiven. Murder can be forgiven. Unbelief cannot.

Whatever you think this sin may be, it is not explicitly defined nor described as a class of sins. It says "there is a sin that leads to death." It does not say "there are sins that lead to death." No list of "mortal" sins is every given.

"Deadly sin" is sin which causes a person to not inherit eternal life if he does not repent of it before he dies.

Examples of deadly sins:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

John 5:28-29 Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

"Deadly sin" is sin which causes a person to not inherit eternal life if he does not repent of it before he dies.

Examples of deadly sins:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

John 5:28-29 Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

None of those verses teach you can lose your salvation. They address non-believers who consistently practice such sins. Believers can and do commit such sins, but they do not characterize their lives. Non-believers do not even view such behavior as sin. Believers are given a new nature by God and are no longer slaves to sin. They can and do repent because it is in their nature now to do so.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

The NT was written for the first Christians to supplement the oral preaching of the apostles and disciples. We later Christians, if we understand it correctly, benefit from it. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

2 Peter 3:14-17 Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish; 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability.


God desires all men to be saved, but all men do not inherit eternal life. Jesus gave himself a a ransom for all men, but not all men will inherit eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For
there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all
—this was attested at the right time.

God desires that no person go to hell, but many men will still go to hell.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

God desires for all men to be saved and he provided a way for all men to be saved, so what separates the righteous person from the unrighteous person?

The righteous person will be found faithful to God's commandments at the time of his death (Revelation 2:10), but the unrighteous person will not be found faithful to God's commandments at the time of his death. He neglected to repent of his sins before he died. 1 John 1:9


God gave each of us free will. How we use our free will in the body here on earth will determine whether we inherit the crown of eternal life in heaven (James 1:12) or suffer in the lake of fire forever and ever. Revelation 21:8

There is a difference between the active will of God and the passive will of God. Yes, God does want all men to go to heaven and Christ's death was sufficient for all men but God only actively intervenes in some lives and Christ's death is only efficient for them.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (Romans 9)

In verse 22, we learn of those whom He "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." The passage is talking to us about how God is the potter, and we are the clay and the potter has the right to do as He will with His clay. Some of His clay is destined for destruction and some for glory. God does this by withholding His mercy from those "prepared for destruction." He leaves them on the path they are already on much like He hardened Pharoah's heart when He could have softened it.

Paul already anticipated our objection to the thought that God might allow some to go onto destruction when he says:

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

It may violate our sense of fairness, but we send ourselves to hell. God does not intervene in every life and mercifully grant faith. If God actively willed all to be saved, none would be lost. We are born in sin and incapable of faith. Unless God regenerates us, and gives us a new nature, we will never believe. Those whom God choses, will obey. Those He does not, won't.

 

[Jan001]

None of those verses teach you can lose your salvation. They address non-believers who consistently practice such sins. Believers can and do commit such sins, but they do not characterize their lives. Non-believers do not even view such behavior as sin. Believers are given a new nature by God and are no longer slaves to sin. They can and do repent because it is in their nature now to do so.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Will Jesus still save a Christian who has denied his faith by his own actions, and he does not repent of his sins before he dies?

 

[Jan001]

There is a difference between the active will of God and the passive will of God. Yes, God does want all men to go to heaven and Christ's death was sufficient for all men but God only actively intervenes in some lives and Christ's death is only efficient for them.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (Romans 9)

The vessels, by their own sinful actions, prepared themselves for their own destruction.

Indeed, God, the potter, has the right to do as he will with the clay. He made us. However, God gave to each of us the freedom to choose for ourselves whom we will obey. Joshua 24:15

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Except we know for a fact that God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and we know for a fact that Jesus died for men so that they all could be saved. We also know that God is longsuffering, not desiring that any soul be condemned to hellfire. We know that God does not want to bestow his wrath on any person. Unrepentant sinners will bring God's wrath upon themselves.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

In verse 22, we learn of those whom He "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." The passage is talking to us about how God is the potter, and we are the clay and the potter has the right to do as He will with His clay. Some of His clay is destined for destruction and some for glory. God does this by withholding His mercy from those "prepared for destruction." He leaves them on the path they are already on much like He hardened Pharoah's heart when He could have softened it.

Because God knows all things, he knew that Pharaoh would never repent. Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The Israelites spoke of this "hardening of Pharaoh's heart" in a way that seemed to attribute Pharaoh's sinful actions to God's sovereign will, but in actuality, God did nothing to prevent Pharaoh's sinful actions. God gave to each of us free will to choose obedience or disobedience.

Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

1 Samuel 6:6 Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He did mighty things among them, did they not let the people go, that they might depart?

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

The vessels, by their own sinful actions, prepared themselves for their own destruction.

Indeed, God, the potter, has the right to do as he will with the clay. He made us. However, God gave to each of us the freedom to choose for ourselves whom we will obey. Joshua 24:15

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Except we know for a fact that God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and we know for a fact that Jesus died for men so that they all could be saved. We also know that God is longsuffering, not desiring that any soul be condemned to hellfire. We know that God does not want to bestow his wrath on any person. Unrepentant sinners will bring God's wrath upon themselves.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Because God knows all things, he knew that Pharaoh would never repent. Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The Israelites spoke of this "hardening of Pharaoh's heart" in a way that seemed to attribute Pharaoh's sinful actions to God's sovereign will, but in actuality, God did nothing to prevent Pharaoh's sinful actions. God gave to each of us free will to choose obedience or disobedience.

Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

1 Samuel 6:6 Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He did mighty things among them, did they not let the people go, that they might depart?

Man's free will is always subject to God's sovereign will. Our choices are free from our perspective but always under God's will. God knows the future because He preordains the future. Pharoah was raised up by God to the means of Israel's deliverance. We are all born spiritually dead. Some people liken salvation to a drowning man who is thrown a life preserver. It lands right next to him but he still has to exercise his free will and reach out and talk hold of it. If he does not, he will surely drown. The correct picture is that the man has already drowned and lies dead at the bottom of the ocean. To be saved God must first breath new life into him, raise him to the surface, and put the life preserver in his hands. Had God not done those things, the dead man could never have exercised his "free will" and chosen salvation.

Our spiritual nature is that of death. Our spirit is in bondage to sin and our nature is entirely depraved. We cannot freely choose good and faith. God must first choose us and change our nature. Then, in accordance to our new nature, we will choose faith. Those whom God chooses He does not cast aside. Once they are chosen, they are given a new nature that will persevere in faith. Yes, God wants all men to believe and be saved but He does not give all men such faith. If He did, none would perish.

Before looking at any verses, consider the process of salvation. We are told that God chose us (the elect) before the foundation of the world. That "while we were yet sinners", Christ died for us. God already knew our lives from beginning to end before He chose us for salvation. He already knew every moment of our lives. He doesn't save us wondering if we will continue in the faith. He already knows. How does God know? God knows because God ordains the future. Sometimes we think God knows the future by having some ability to "peek into the future" like a cosmic seer but that is not the case at all. God knows the future because God ordains it. In that case, why would God save someone He knows will walk away from salvation? What would be the point?

This begs the question of where does salvation come from. Some people believe God does everything to make salvation possible but then leaves it up to us to choose. Even after we choose salvation, He still leaves it up to us to choose whether or not to continue in salvation. God enables salvation but leaves the choice up to us. The other view is that man is born dead in sin and will never, on his own, choose salvation. Man is so utterly depraved that he cannot and will not repent and choose God. His nature and his will are in hopeless bondage to sin. He cannot help but act according to that nature. What must happen first is for God to change that man's nature through the process of regeneration. In regeneration, God gives that man a new nature that will (will not can) respond in genuine saving faith. Now that man walks according to his new nature and that nature can never reject God and walk away from salvation. The man still is a sinner and still fights sin but never loses that which God gave him.

Now let's look at a passage in Romans:

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30)

Notice the progression. First God foreknew them. The word "foreknew" means "To foreknow, to know beforehand." As Strong's put's it, "The concept of foreknowledge in the biblical context is closely tied to God's sovereignty and His eternal nature. Unlike human foreknowledge, which is speculative and uncertain, God's foreknowledge is perfect and certain, rooted in His eternal purpose and will." This tells us that God already knew everything about them including every moment of their future lives. In addition to foreknowing them, He also "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son." The world predestined means, "foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand." What did God predestine them to? "To be conformed to the image of his Son." Why does God do this? "In order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." In other words, God has predetermined that some are to be made Christlike and be spiritual brothers to Jesus Christ who is the firstborn. If God has predetermined these people will be spiritual brothers (and sisters) to Christ, why would He leave their eternal destiny up in the air and subject to their continued obedience? If you set someone apart, from before their creation, for a task then you equip them for that task so they cannot fail.

Those predestined He calls. Calling is the action of the Holy Spirit bringing men to Christ. That they respond positively is foreordained for he goes on to justify them. It doesn't say that he calls all men and some are then justified. Those He calls He justifies. This is the inward call of the Holy Spirit that is irresistible. All men are called outwardly. All men are responsible to respond to that call but, born in total spiritual depravity, then cannot respond with a yes. Only those whom the Spirit calls inwardly can. Only those whom God has predestined. Those He justifies. Justification is when God takes our sins and puts them on Christ and takes His righteousness and imputes it to us. Some have called this the Great Exchange. He takes our sin and give us His righteousness. When then stand righteous before God. Not based on our own righteousness but on the imputed righteousness of Christ. Some say that "justify" means "just as if" as in "just as if we had never sinned and were righteous." It is a judicial pronouncement where we are declared righteous. Notice this is done before we have lived out our life. It is not based on how worthy a life we live nor pronounced at the end of our life. It can be declared and decided after we profess saving faith because it is not our righteousness but Christ's.

The final step is that we are glorified. Notice no conditions are given. We are not glorified "if we persist" or "if we prove worthy." This has all be preordained or predestined. As Scripture says, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6) Perfect means to complete. Who completes it? "He who began a good work in you." God begins the good work and god completes it. God chooses us. God calls us. God gives us faith. God justifies us. God sanctifies us. God completes His work. It is all of God and because it is all of God, it cannot fail.

This is important to understand before we look at verses that would seem to suggest we can lose our salvation. If it is God's work, and not dependent on us, it cannot fail. We may fail God, but God will not fail us. Remember, God predestined us for a reason. God's purposes never fail. God does not will a thing to happen then it doesn't. Not if it is His active will.

Part II follows​

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

John 10:28​

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Philippians 1:6​

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:19​

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Romans 11:29​

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 Peter 1:5​

Who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John 10:27-29​

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

2 Timothy 1:12​

Which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that day what has been entrusted to me.

1 John 3:9​

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Ephesians 4:30​

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Jude 1:24​

Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24​

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

Romans 8:38-39​

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy 4:18​

The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:13-14​

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Romans 8:1-39​

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. ...

Ephesians 1:4​

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

John 5:24​

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

1 Peter 1:23​

Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

1 Corinthians 1:8​

Who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 1:3-5​

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Titus 3:5​

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:5​

He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

1 John 5:13​

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.


An important rule of hermeneutics (the study of how to interpret the Bible), is that God does not contradict Himself. For example, God doesn't say salvation is by faith alone in one place then say salvation depends on works in another. That would be a contradictory statement. God is not of two minds nor does He get mixed up and contradict Himself. When we come across such apparent contradictions, we let the plain passages speak and we look for a way to harmonize the passages.

Paul plainly states that salvation is by faith alone and not by works. That should inform us on how to understand what Jame's writes. Likewise, if we have passages saying you cannot lose your salvation, then that must inform us on passages that seem to suggest you can.

I believe in both cases we find that some passages are speaking directly to Christians while others are speaking to those who believe they are Christians but are not (the wheat verses the tares). Saving faith is an inward act that bears outward actions. We don't start glowing or have a hallo appear about our heads when we believe. The best outward test of our claim of faith is our actions. These actions don't earn us salvation but they give evidence to it.