Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[BobRyan]

"Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us." - the same could be said of Stephen.

Stephen "being full of grace"
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

And in Stephen's case it is not just "full of grace" but "full of grace AND power"!

And what is true of Christ is that He was incarnated -- not procreated. Which is true of Christ alone - not any other human.

This is not a slam against Mary, or Stephen or Jesus. It is just what the Bible teaches.

Those who suggest that Christ could not be sinless unless His mother was born sinless - somehow grant His mother to be sinless without her mother having to also be sinless. Have they thought that through? Is something missing from their proposal?

Good thing we have Mary calling Christ her Savior. It is sinful humanity that needs a Savior - and praise God we have one.

Christ's response to being confronted with "blessed be Mary" was... "on the contrary"
Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried You, and the breasts at which You nursed!” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it.”

================================

BTW - It is not very helpful to claim that anyone who differs with this post is attacking Mary, or Jesus or Stephen. That kind of statement proves nothing.

 

[BobRyan]

Mark 3:
20 And He *came home, and the crowd *gathered again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. 21 And when His own people heard about this, they came out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.” 22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons.” NASB

31 Then His mother and His brothers *came, and while standing outside they sent word to Him, calling for Him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around Him, and they *said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.” 33 Answering them, He *said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” 34 And looking around at those who were sitting around Him, He *said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, this is My brother, and sister, and mother.” NASB

======================================

Mark 3:
20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” NIV
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.” 33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. 34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

[disciple Clint]

"Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us." - the same could be said of Stephen.

And what is true of Christ is that He was incarnated -- not procreated. Which is true of Christ alone - not any other human.

This is not a slam against Mary, or Stephen or Jesus. It is just what the Bible teaches.

Those who suggest that Christ could not be sinless unless His mother was born sinless - somehow grant His mother to be sinless without her mother having to also be sinless. Have they thought that through? Is something missing from their proposal?

Good thing we have Mary calling Christ her Savior. It is sinful humanity that needs a Savior - and praise God we have one.

================================

BTW - It is not very helpful to claim that anyone who differs with this post is attacking Mary, or Jesus or Stephen. That kind of statement proves nothing.

Mary was more than just a good person, she was FULL of GRACE.
We are saved by grace, therefore if she is full of grace she is sinless, I am open to how she became full of grace but I have no doubt that she was sinless while she carried Jesus who being God could not share blood with a sinner.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Mary was more than just a good person, she was FULL of GRACE.
We are saved by grace, therefore if she is full of grace she is sinless, I am open to how she became full of grace but I have no doubt that she was sinless while she carried Jesus who being God could not share blood with a sinner.

New King James Bible says this :
29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

New Catholic Bible says this:
In the sixth month,the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 The angel came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace!The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was greatly troubled by his words and wondered in her heart what this salutation could mean.
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 He will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

Greek Interliner Bible says this: Luke 1:26-28
" hail , though that art highly favored"

Online Greek Interlinear Bible

Online Greek Interlinear Bible

www.scripture4all.org

 

[PeterDona]

following with interest.
The immaculate conception - is it something we must believe? - hangs on this one word in the gospel of Luke
or is there more to the story?

 

[Clare73]

"Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us." - the same could be said of Stephen.
And what is true of Christ is that He was incarnated -- not procreated. Which is true of Christ alone - not any other human.
This is not a slam against Mary, or Stephen or Jesus. It is just what the Bible teaches.
Those who suggest that Christ could not be sinless unless His mother was born sinless - somehow grant His mother to be sinless without her mother having to also be sinless. Have they thought that through? Is something missing from their proposal?
Good thing we have Mary calling Christ her Savior. It is sinful humanity that needs a Savior - and praise God we have one.

================================

BTW - It is not very helpful to claim that anyone who differs with this post is attacking Mary, or Jesus or Stephen. That kind of statement proves nothing.

It seems Mary contributed as much (the body and nurture of the Savior) to the gospel as did the apostles.
Veneration of all of them seems appropriate.

 

[BobRyan]

It seems Mary contributed as much (the body and nurture of the Savior) to the gospel as did the apostles.
Veneration of all of them seems appropriate.

What would you suggest?

Do you see any of the Apostles "venerating Mary" in the NT??

Do you see any of them praying to the dead - or for the dead in the NT?

====================

Christians frequently quote NT apostles when proclaiming/teaching/defining doctrine regarding the Gospel.

Aside from Mary's statement that Christ was also her Savior - what direct quotes of Mary do you find people appealing to - when trying to proclaim gospel doctrine ? Because the idea of contributing as much to Bible doctrine regarding the Gospel as did the Apostles might suggest at least one or two quotes from Mary.

 

[BobRyan]

New King James Bible says this :

Luke 1:28 The angel came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace!The Lord is with you.”

following with interest.
The immaculate conception - is it something we must believe? - hangs on this one word in the gospel of Luke
or is there more to the story?

Sadly - the "immaculate conception" is not a term that refers to Mary conceiving Christ. It is a term that refers to the mother of Mary giving birth to Mary in such a way that unlike all other procreated humans - Mary alone - was born without sin.

Stephen "being full of grace"

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

Does not mean Stephen's mother conceived him in such a way that he too was born as a sinless being - without a sinful nature.

Mary was more than just a good person, she was FULL of GRACE.

So was Stephen

 

[BobRyan]

Mary was more than just a good person, she was FULL of GRACE.

So was Stephen

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

 

[Clare73]

What would you suggest?

Do you see any of the Apostles "venerating Mary" in the NT??

Do you see the apostles revering one another?
I see the church revering the apostles.

Do you see any of them praying to the dead - or for the dead in the NT?

What does that have to do with revering the apostles and Mary?

Christians frequently quote NT apostles when proclaiming/teaching/defining doctrine regarding the Gospel.

Aside from Mary's statement that Christ was also her Savior - what direct quotes of Mary do you find people appealing to - when trying to proclaim gospel doctrine ? Because the idea of contributing as much to Bible doctrine regarding the Gospel as did the Apostles might suggest at least one or two quotes from Mary.

Sez who?

Would there be a gospel without the mother of the Christ?
Why should she not be revered as are the apostles?

 

[BobRyan]

Do you see the apostles revering one another?
I see the church revering the apostles.

Revere is to show respect for something. or admiration of something or someone.

Venerate -
Venerate comes from the Latin root venerārī, which has the various meanings of "to solicit the good will of," "to worship," "to pay homage to," and "to hold in awe." That root is related to Venus, which, as a proper noun, is the name of the Roman goddess of love and beauty.

Does any disciple or apostle respond to Mary in the NT as if they worship, or hold her in Awe, or pay homage to her in your POV? would you mind pointing us to their exact statement in that regard if you believe you have such a text.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Do you see any of them praying to the dead - or for the dead in the NT?

What does that have to do with revering the apostles and Mary?

958 Communion with the dead

How exactly do you think Catholic teaching claims to contact Mary if not via 958 above in their efforts to venerate her?

 

[BobRyan]

Would there be a gospel without the mother of the Christ?

Would there be a Gospel without Noah? Without Abraham, Shem ?

Are they all contributing as much to the Gospel doctrine we have today as the NT writers?. If so would you mind quoting Noah, Shem, Mary for their doctrinal statements on the Gospel?

 

[Clare73]

Revere is to show respect for something. or admiration of something or someone.

Venerate -
Venerate comes from the Latin root venerārī, which has the various meanings of "to solicit the good will of," "to worship," "to pay homage to," and "to hold in awe." That root is related to Venus, which, as a proper noun, is the name of the Roman goddess of love and beauty.

Webster's definition, which is what I use: to regard with reverential respect, or with admiration and deference; to revere.

Does any disciple or apostle respond to Mary in the NT as if they worship, or hold her in Awe, or pay homage to her in your POV? would you mind pointing us to their exact statement in that regard if you believe you have such a text.

I think almost as many disciples or apostles as hold one another in awe and worship in the NT, which is with whom I am comparing her.

 

[Clare73]

BobRyan said:

Do you see any of them praying to the dead - or for the dead in the NT?

958 Communion with the dead

How exactly do you think Catholic teaching claims to contact Mary if not via 958 above in their efforts to venerate her?

What does Catholic teaching have to do with my revering the apostles and Mary?

 

[Clare73]

Would there be a Gospel without Noah? Without Abraham, Shem ?

Are they all contributing as much to the Gospel doctrine we have today as the NT writers?. If so would you mind quoting Noah, Shem, Mary for their doctrinal statements on the Gospel?

Sure. . .God could use someone else in their place. . .not too sure what he would substitute for the mother of the Christ though.

Would there be a gospel with no Christ? Would there be a Christ with no mother?

 

[concretecamper]

following with interest.
The immaculate conception - is it something we must believe? - hangs on this one word in the gospel of Luke
or is there more to the story?

The same Church that said the Gospel of Matthew is inspired text also said Mary was Immaculately conceived. You either accept it all, or reject it all.

 

[JulieB67]

The same Church that said the Gospel of Matthew is inspired text also said Mary was Immaculately conceived. You either accept it all, or reject it all.

We are to reject anything that contradicts the word of God. Christ states anyone that does the will of God is the same as his brother, sister and mother. We are also not to revere anyone but the Father/Christ. We are told this in scripture. God's word will never change but men and traditions do.
God will use whomever he will but oral tradition cannot contradict scripture. And oral traditions have to start somewhere. We are to search the scriptures to see if what is being taught is true. Don't you think the Holy Spirit would have led the disciples and apostles to write down such an important truth in the scriptures we do have? You yourself stated that your church believes the Gospel of Matthew is inspired. Why would the gospel then leave out such a truth? It wouldn't. Christ has foretold us all things. The one true church is the one started by the disciples and the apostles. We have the 4 gospels, the acts as well as the letters by Paul and others. It's all about the Father and our Savior Jesus Christ. If anything being taught goes against that word or adds to that word than we have to look at it as suspicious at best. Mary was blessed to have given birth to Christ. But again anyone that does the will of the Father is the same as his brother, sister or mother. To state otherwise would be to go against Christ's own teaching.

And no church is infallible. That goes for all denominations. What is infallible is the Word of God. It's not the church and then the word of God.

 

[concretecamper]

We are to reject anything that contradicts the word of God

Or better said, we reject other's interpretation when it doesn't agree with mine.

Funny how many submit to the authority of Christ's Church when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Canon of Scripture, The 2 Natures of Christ without explicit scriptural reference.

Luke 10:16

 

[Clare73]

Or better said, we reject other's interpretation when it doesn't agree with mine.

Funny how many submit to the authority of Christ's Church when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Canon of Scripture, The 2 Natures of Christ without explicit scriptural reference.

Luke 10:16

'Tis no submission to man's authority.

There is much in the NT word of God demonstrating the Trinity and Christ's two natures.

Protestants don't deny doctrines of the early Christians which are supported in Scripture.

And the Protestant Canon is not the same as the Catholic Canon.