Jesus & James

[fhansen]

Oh really, care to show the verse or verses that state this. That is right they taught to receive God;s free gift of Eternal Life, believe in Jesus. I am sure they each had a copy of The Gospel of John with them.

They all taught the same gospel. When you can reconcile the following verses without resorting to contrived positions about Jesus or James preaching a different way to God than Paul taught, or about Paul teaching two gospels, then you’ll end up with the full-true gospel instead of a truncated one based on selective readings of Scripture or reading between its lines.

“Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.” John 6:47

“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Rom 5:17-20

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile “sinners” know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.” Gal 2:15-16

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

“What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:21-22

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

“And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill His good purpose." Phil 2:12-13

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Eph 2:8-10

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’” Matt 25:34-36

“Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:15-17, 24

“Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God.” 1 Pet 1:21

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.” Jer 31:33

The difference between the old and new covenants is grace, is the Holy Spirit dwelling and working within, is reconciliation resulting in union with, friendship with, sonship of God as we come to believe. This is a matter of the branch now being connected to the Vine, as we were meant to be. And that union ensures good works and the overcoming of sin or else it’s not even real to begin with-or we’ve strayed away from the real thing after receiving it. Read the bible for yourself, and learn the full role and purpose of faith, apart from the lens of adopted novel theologies.

It's all about grace, accomplishing in us the righteousness, the obedience, that the law could not, the obedience that Adam rejected. It's all about letting God in rather than keeping Him out, when He now comes knocking on our door.

 

[d taylor]

They all taught the same gospel. When you can reconcile the following verses without resorting to contrived positions about Jesus or James preaching a different way to God than Paul taught, or about Paul teaching two gospels, then you’ll end up with the full-true gospel instead of a truncated one based on selective readings of Scripture or reading between its lines.

“Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.” John 6:47

“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Rom 5:17-20

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile “sinners” know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.” Gal 2:15-16

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

“What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:21-22

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

“And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill His good purpose." Phil 2:12-13

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Eph 2:8-10

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’” Matt 25:34-36

“Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:15-17, 24

“Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God.” 1 Pet 1:21

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.” Jer 31:33

The difference between the old and new covenants is grace, is the Holy Spirit dwelling and working within, is reconciliation resulting in union with, friendship with, sonship of God as we come to believe. This is a matter of the branch now being connected to the Vine, as we were meant to be. And that union ensures good works and the overcoming of sin or else it’s not even real to begin with-or we’ve strayed away from the real thing after receiving it. Read the bible for yourself, and learn the full role and purpose of faith, apart from the lens of adopted novel theologies.

It's all about grace, accomplishing in us the righteousness, the obedience, that the law could not, the obedience that Adam rejected. It's all about letting God in rather than keeping Him out, when He now comes knocking on our door.

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​

You are good at digging up verses and combining them to created a man composed gospel. Funny (actually it is not) these verses are not used by Jesus when He offered the woman at the well, His free gift of Eternal Life ( a drink of Living Water).
Or when asked by the people who Jesus feed with fish Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus replied Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[fhansen]

You are good at digging up verses and combining them to created a man composed gospel.

No, I tried to be good at quoting and postioning verses in such a way that you could not escape their meaning -and therefore the meaning of the gospel. But I failed-people can always keep ignoring Scripture in favor of their own self composed gospel.

Funny (actually it is not) these verses are not used by Jesus when He offered the woman at the well, His free gift of Eternal Life ( a drink of Living Water).

The free gift that wells up to eternal life is grace, His own life in us that includes real righteousness/justice as long as we remain in Him (John 15, Rom 6). Again:
When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. Rom 6:20-22

Or when asked by the people who Jesus feed with fish Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus replied Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Did you actually read the verses? They included many such passages as the ones you've quoted here. And that only means that you haven't reconciled them with...the others.

 

[Aaron112]

Actually reading the Bible , thru and thru. Yields surprising results if someone listens.(to Jesus)

Did you actually read the verses?

 

[d taylor]

No, I tried to be good at quoting and postioning verses in such a way that you could not escape their meaning -and therefore the meaning of the gospel. But I failed-people can always keep ignoring Scripture in favor of their own self composed gospel.

The free gift that wells up to eternal life is grace, His own life in us that includes real righteousness/justice as long as we remain in Him (John 15, Rom 6). Again:
When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. Rom 6:20-22


Did you actually read the verses? They included many such passages as the ones you've quoted here. And that only means that you haven't reconciled them with...the others.

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No you take verses out of context and make them say what you want them to say. Just like this free gift is grace, where it is stated several the free gift is eternal life. Show me a verse that states God free gift is grace.

And i am not going to address every verse you pluck out and post.

 

[d taylor]

No, I tried to be good at quoting and postioning verses in such a way that you could not escape their meaning -and therefore the meaning of the gospel. But I failed-people can always keep ignoring Scripture in favor of their own self composed gospel.

The free gift that wells up to eternal life is grace, His own life in us that includes real righteousness/justice as long as we remain in Him (John 15, Rom 6). Again:
When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. Rom 6:20-22


Did you actually read the verses? They included many such passages as the ones you've quoted here. And that only means that you haven't reconciled them with...the others.

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​

The question that needs answering is. Why do you believe Jesus (God ) is not capable of giving a person His free gift of Eternal life by the means of believing in Jesus. Why do you and other who believe as you do? Believe, belief in Jesus is not the way, but instead you must do actions that you have selected out of The Bible.

 

[Guojing]

The question that needs answering is. Why do you believe Jesus (God ) is not capable of giving a person His free gift of Eternal life by the means of believing in Jesus. Why do you and other who believe as you do? Believe, belief in Jesus is not the way, but instead you must do actions that you have selected out of The Bible.​

You should have told John that when he wrote 1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

"Wait John, I learned from your gospel that the free gift of Eternal life by the means of believing in Jesus. Why do you believe Jesus (God ) is not capable of giving a person His free gift of Eternal life by the means of believing in Jesus alone?"

 

[tdidymas]

You should have told John that when he wrote 1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

"Wait John, I learned from your gospel that the free gift of Eternal life by the means of believing in Jesus. Why do you believe Jesus (God ) is not capable of giving a person His free gift of Eternal life by the means of believing in Jesus alone?"

The same man who wrote 1 Jn. 3:15 also wrote Jn. 5:24 "I tell you the truth: he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life" - "believes" is the operative word here, nothing about deeds.

But 1 Jn. 3:15 is describing a certain category of persons who claim to be Christian but who exhibit hatred toward other Christians. Such people do not have the Holy Spirit living in them, according to this verse. It gets to the heart of what "believe" is which is declared in Jn. 5:24. God requires a certain kind of belief (faith), not a mere belief that is claimed in a theoretical sense but not being lived out. "The righteous shall live by faith" is the kind of faith the Bible is talking about, not a faith that is claimed but not lived (which is the way James is using it in Ja. 2:24).

But if you think this is a "faith + works" formula for salvation, then you would be wrong, because Paul wrote that we are justified by faith and not by works. The works that James is talking about is works that result from genuine faith in Christ, which are the works "done through God" (Jn. 3:21). And if the works a Christian does are done through God (or in God), then God already dwells in that person, and that person was "saved by grace through faith" already. It means that genuine faith alone justified them (God accepted them), and out of that genuine faith in Christ, they believed that God was working in them to do the works of truth and love.

If you think this is a "faith + works" formula for obtaining salvation, then I have to ask why would you think that?

 

[fhansen]

The question that needs answering is. Why do you believe Jesus (God ) is not capable of giving a person His free gift of Eternal life by the means of believing in Jesus. Why do you and other who believe as you do? Believe, belief in Jesus is not the way, but instead you must do actions that you have selected out of The Bible.

The actions are in the bible! And you ignore them. It wouldn't matter if I quoted the whole bible-you've selected the verses you prefer and focus only on them while the verses that I quoted are non-selective in that they include both sides of the coin so to speak. I only asked you to reconcile them.

It's all grace-the gift is free either way. We accept it by turning to God and away from the world and ourselves and our sin-that's what faith is all about-and what living as a child of His should mean-made possible now because of grace. We can also reject the free gift at any time-and living as a child of the devil will do just that -as it constitues a turning away from God. Christ frees us from sin-He takes it away-are we now to return to it?? But keep ignoring the bible if you prefer. God draws us to the proper use of our freedom-that's why we need revelation-to know His will. And the grace to do it is ever-available.

 

[fhansen]

The same man who wrote 1 Jn. 3:15 also wrote Jn. 5:24 "I tell you the truth: he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life" - "believes" is the operative word here, nothing about deeds.

But 1 Jn. 3:15 is describing a certain category of persons who claim to be Christian but who exhibit hatred toward other Christians. Such people do not have the Holy Spirit living in them, according to this verse. It gets to the heart of what "believe" is which is declared in Jn. 5:24. God requires a certain kind of belief (faith), not a mere belief that is claimed in a theoretical sense but not being lived out. "The righteous shall live by faith" is the kind of faith the Bible is talking about, not a faith that is claimed but not lived (which is the way James is using it in Ja. 2:24).

But if you think this is a "faith + works" formula for salvation, then you would be wrong, because Paul wrote that we are justified by faith and not by works. The works that James is talking about is works that result from genuine faith in Christ, which are the works "done through God" (Jn. 3:21). And if the works a Christian does are done through God (or in God), then God already dwells in that person, and that person was "saved by grace through faith" already. It means that genuine faith alone justified them (God accepted them), and out of that genuine faith in Christ, they believed that God was working in them to do the works of truth and love.

If you think this is a "faith + works" formula for obtaining salvation, then I have to ask why would you think that?

John says something very plain and simple in 1 John 3, a universal truth that no Christian should have need or reason to contest:

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

 

[d taylor]

The actions are in the bible! And you ignore them. It wouldn't matter if I quoted the whole bible-you've selected the verses you prefer and focus only on them while the verses that I quoted are non-selective in that they include both sides of the coin so to speak. I only asked you to reconcile them.

It's all grace-the gift is free either way. We accept it by turning to God and away from the world and ourselves and our sin-that's what faith is all about-and living as a child of His should, made possible now because of grace. We can also reject the free gift at any time-and living as a child of the devil will do just that -as it constitues a truning away from God. Cjhrsdit fres us from sin-are we niw to return to it?? But keep ignoring the bible if you prefer. God draws us to the proper use of our freedom-that's why we need revelation-to know His will. And the grace to do it is ever-available.

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I am not ignoring The Bible, just your Catholic religion that has taught you to believe as you do.

 

[fhansen]

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I am not ignoring The Bible, just your Catholic religion that has taught you to believe as you do.

The CC and the EO simply know what the bible is telling us, partly from the vantage point of a lived experience since the beginning, as echoed by the patristics and as I've also come to know and agree with.

 

[Guojing]

But if you think this is a "faith + works" formula for salvation, then you would be wrong, because Paul wrote that we are justified by faith and not by works. The works that James is talking about is works that result from genuine faith in Christ, which are the works "done through God" (Jn. 3:21). And if the works a Christian does are done through God (or in God), then God already dwells in that person, and that person was "saved by grace through faith" already. It means that genuine faith alone justified them (God accepted them), and out of that genuine faith in Christ, they believed that God was working in them to do the works of truth and love.

If you think this is a "faith + works" formula for obtaining salvation, then I have to ask why would you think that?

James is writing to the 12 tribes of Israel (James 1:1), where salvation requires faith + works (James 2:24)

Paul is writing to us gentiles. (Romans 11:13), where salvation requires faith only (Romans 4:5)

Learn to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

 

[tdidymas]

John says something very plain and simple in 1 John 3, a universal truth that no Christian should have need or reason to contest:

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

I can't tell if you are agreeing with my previous post, or objecting to it. Are you of the "faith + works => salvation" camp?

 

[tdidymas]

James is writing to the 12 tribes of Israel (James 1:1), where salvation requires faith + works (James 2:24)

Paul is writing to us gentiles. (Romans 11:13), where salvation requires faith only (Romans 4:5)

Learn to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

You are WRONGLY dividing the word of truth in the fact that you think there are 2 different "gospels." There is only 1 eternal gospel (Rev. 14:6 and Gal. 1:6-9). If you think that Paul taught a different gospel to the Jews in the synagogues than to the gentiles, then you are ignorant of what Paul taught. He clearly states that those who taught a "faith + works" salvation (the Judaizers) were accursed (Gal. 1:8) and dogs (Phil. 3:2), condemned (Rom. 3:8) and ignorant (Rom. 10:2). The Judaizers were these people, who claimed that the gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. But the fact is, that since Abraham was saved without being circumcised (Rom. 4:10), neither did the Jews have to be. And just the same as the gentiles showing that Christ was of no benefit to them if they thought they had to be circumcised (to the extent that they were - Gal. 5:2), so the Jews also were condemned if they believed that their circumcision was paramount to their salvation. "If righteousness comes by the law, then Christ died needlessly" (Gal. 2:21).

 

[fhansen]

I can't tell if you are agreeing with my previous post, or objecting to it. Are you of the "faith + works => salvation" camp?

I'm of the scriptural camp. When you can reconcile 1 John 3:15 with John 5:24 then you'll better understand God's will for us. Paul gives us an idea what we can and are supposed to do once freely justified, united with God and led by the Spirit.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

 

[Guojing]

You are WRONGLY dividing the word of truth in the fact that you think there are 2 different "gospels." There is only 1 eternal gospel (Rev. 14:6 and Gal. 1:6-9). If you think that Paul taught a different gospel to the Jews in the synagogues than to the gentiles, then you are ignorant of what Paul taught. He clearly states that those who taught a "faith + works" salvation (the Judaizers) were accursed (Gal. 1:8) and dogs (Phil. 3:2), condemned (Rom. 3:8) and ignorant (Rom. 10:2). The Judaizers were these people, who claimed that the gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. But the fact is, that since Abraham was saved without being circumcised (Rom. 4:10), neither did the Jews have to be. And just the same as the gentiles showing that Christ was of no benefit to them if they thought they had to be circumcised (to the extent that they were - Gal. 5:2), so the Jews also were condemned if they believed that their circumcision was paramount to their salvation. "If righteousness comes by the law, then Christ died needlessly" (Gal. 2:21).

If there is only one gospel and its eternal, why is there even a need to divide the word of truth?

 

[David Lamb]

If there is only one gospel and its eternal, why is there even a need to divide the word of truth?

But "dividing" in 2 Timothy 2:15 doesn't mean splitting it up. It seems to mean rather, making a straight path. The bible dictionary I use says it means:

1) to cut straight, to cut straight ways
1a) to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right
2) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly

 

[Guojing]

But "dividing" in Hebrews 4:13 doesn't mean splitting it up. It seems to mean rather, making a straight path. The bible dictionary I use says it means:

1) to cut straight, to cut straight ways
1a) to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right
2) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly

I was talking about 2 Timothy 2:15.

 

[David Lamb]

I was talking about 2 Timothy 2:15.

Sorry, so was I. I will edit my post immediately!