Is morality objective, even without God?

[BCP1928]

But if we all developed cultures separately (we're not all descended from Sumerians) then why are there moral rules, (which you have styled "cultural") consistent thru out?

Because we are all humans and have similar natures, despite our differences in culture.

 

[Jerry N.]

That's not the whole essence, but that's part of it.

Christianity is defined by believing in the one true trinitarian eternal God. The only place he is defined clearly to us is the Bible.

A Christian: “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9). I don't think that all of the Christians who followed this before trinitarian doctrine were non-Christian, and the final form of the Bible as we know it had been established.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Michael Dummitt comes to mind, but are you not aware that mathematical realism is not without controversy? It is, in fact, an unfalsifiable proposition, so no doubt the matter will never be settled. What is your opinion on the ontological status of mental constructs?

Being that I've been influenced by various camps of Realism, my opinion of the ontological status of mental constructs lean in that direction rather than toward Anti-Realism. As a case in point: If we lived during the early 16th century and had to make the attempt to determine if Copernicus' fledgling ideas about the falsity of geo-centrism were "true," could we say that Michael DummEtt's anti-realist view holds up since truth and knowledge are dependence upon both human rational capabilities and human experience ............ as lived progressively in time?

This dandy little vid about Copernicus is a case in point where evidence is to be grappled with, even when it is indirect and incomplete....

Did the Church Actually Hate Copernicus? | Adam Ruins Everything​

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So, for the "ontological status of mental constructs," whether they can be proved TODAY as either p or not-p isn't what the concepts of truth and knowledge should be conceptually defined by in sheer terms. There is also the fact of the 'other' as Reality (with a capital R), with Reality being the Universe as it is and requiring our studious and patient study to discover whatever aspects of that totality there are to discover and know from a human point of view.

I would then apply this to our parallel philosophical studiousness in ETHICS.

 

[o_mlly]

The difficulty with most arguments like that for objective morality is that they are basically self-serving.

Possibly. Depends on what you mean by "self-serving". Is my intention materially selfish (maximize my physical pleasure and avoid pain at any cost) or is my intention to live a moral life.

 

[o_mlly]

Then now we all know who to ask for the answer to any and all moral problems.

He is always available to those who ask ... even those who do not believe in Him yet.

 

[BCP1928]

Possibly. Depends on what you mean by "self-serving". Is my intention materially selfish (maximize my physical pleasure and avoid pain at any cost) or is my intention to live a moral life.

I wouldn't be able to say, only that whatever your goal is you seek to reach it by exercising moral authority over others.

 

[o_mlly]

I wouldn't be able to say, only that whatever your goal is you seek to reach it by exercising moral authority over others.

? Cite the post that supports your claim that I exercise moral authority over others.

 

[Ben Leevey]

But that is not, for most Christians why we believe in Him.

Agreed. We believe in Him only because He has regenerated our dead heart. But I was trying to show @partinobodycular that he doesn't believe in the God of the Bible.

 

[Ben Leevey]

Repent of not believing in the literal inerrancy of scripture?

Repent of not believing in God Almighty, who breathed every page. Repent of all rebellion against him, and in that repenting, turn to Christ as your only hope and as the most desirable treasure in the universe, pursuing Him, by grace.

 

[Jerry N.]

Repent of not believing in God Almighty, who breathed every page. Repent of all rebellion against him, and in that repenting, turn to Christ as your only hope and as the most desirable treasure in the universe, pursuing Him, by grace.

The Bible contains the word of God and all truth Christians need to live for Him. It is divinely inspired, but not every verse is the word of God.

2 Timothy 4:13, When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.

 

[Ben Leevey]

The Bible contains the word of God and all truth Christians need to live for Him. It is divinely inspired, but not every verse is the word of God.

2 Timothy 4:13, When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.

To quote 2 Timothy to you again: 2 Timothy 3:16-17

It is all God breathed.

 

[Ben Leevey]

A Christian: “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9). I don't think that all of the Christians who followed this before trinitarian doctrine were non-Christian, and the final form of the Bible as we know it had been established.

They believed in everything revealed about God. The trinitarian doctrine was fully developed by the time John penned revelation (though it did not bear that name).

 

[Ben Leevey]

Because we are all humans and have similar natures, despite our differences in culture.

And why do we have similar natures?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Can this thread be merged with this thread Hey, Atheists...

Asking same questions I think.

 

[Aaron112]

The trinitarian doctrine was fully developed by the time John penned revelation

No. It came much later, and came from other religions not from God nor from Scripture.

 

[Ben Leevey]

No. It came much later, and came from other religions not from God nor from Scripture.

I assume you not trinitarian. I'm not saying the name came from scripture. I am saying the concepts exist there.

 

[Ben Leevey]

Can this thread be merged with this thread Hey, Atheists...

Asking same questions I think.

Sure! If anybody @Aaron112 @Jerry N. @BCP1928 has anything to say to me, say it in that thread.

 

[Aaron112]

I am saying the concepts exist there.

The concepts, as you refer to them, came from outside sources, not from Scripture nor from God. Those concepts were brought into the 'church' sort of like a test maybe ? To see who would stick with Scripture, and who would depart from Scripture - to see who they/we/whoever is trusting.

 

[Jerry N.]

To quote 2 Timothy to you again: 2 Timothy 3:16-17

It is all God breathed.

So Paul’s letter to Timothy was already Scripture, and God inspired Paul to ask for his cloak? I think not. Other parts of the letter were "God breathed," but I think asking for his cloak was Paul's idea.
Here is another verse: 1 Corinthians 7:25, Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.

 

[Aaron112]

A Christian: “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9). I don't think that all of the Christians who followed this before trinitarian doctrine were non-Christian, and the final form of the Bible as we know it had been established.

Non-Christian does not mean not devoted to YHVH, nor does it mean pagan, remembering all the apostles were non-christian in religious terms. They follow(ed) Jesus, as did the anabaptists(some of them) later who were likewise targets for martyrdom .....