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FLAT or ROUND Earth?

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Hans Blaster

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How do round earthers explain the celestial dome not changing nor spinning? Where the constellations are today they will be next year at this time. Be still.
Conservation of angular momentum, orbital mechanics, and the very slow motion of the stars.

Conservation of angular momentum keeps the axis of the Earth pointed in the same direction even as it orbits around the Sun.

The orbit of the Earth is an approximately 2-body orbital system which is quite stable and therefore repeatable.

The stars are very far away relative to how fast they are moving relative to us, so their apparent positions change very little. (Astronomers measure the motion of stars in the sky in seconds of arc (1/3600 of a degree) for even the most "mobile" stars.
 
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SimplyMe

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This is quite correct. And also, don’t forget, as the ship passes the horizon, the tallest point on the ship will be the last to disappear from view.

If the world were flat, the ship would rather shrink consistently to a single small point, which is not what we see at the horizon.

Interestingly I have heard that Muhammed, who believed the world was flat, unlike the majority of people of that era, taught that the disappearance of the ships over the horizon was an optical illusion. There is also the Sura in the Quran where Dhul Qarnayn, that is to say, Alexander the Great, travels all the way to the West and meets the sun relaxing in a muddy pool, before he has to get up and travel east to light up another day. It’s some pretty wild stuff.


As a Christian I feel compelled to reject on an absolute basis the idea of a Flat Earth, for the reasons you have cited - all the evidence disagrees with it, and since Jesus Christ is the Truth, it follows that we must pursue truth at all times.

It is also worth pointing out, prior to modern navigation techniques and radar, tended to have a Crow's Nest at the top of the ship to act as a lookout position, since a person in that nest could see farther than a person on the deck of the ship (could see further over the curve). If the Earth was flat, there would be no reason for a Crow's Nest, as a person on the deck would be able to see just as far as the person in the Crow's Nest.
 
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The Liturgist

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It is also worth pointing out, prior to modern navigation techniques and radar, tended to have a Crow's Nest at the top of the ship to act as a lookout position, since a person in that nest could see farther than a person on the deck of the ship (could see further over the curve). If the Earth was flat, there would be no reason for a Crow's Nest, as a person on the deck would be able to see just as far as the person in the Crow's Nest.

Indeed, this is quite true, and the role of the Crow’s Nest and the lookouts became particularly important with the development of steamships which were faster. And rather than becoming obsolete after the Titanic disaster, since it would still be years before RADAR was readily available to commercial ships for collision avoidance, efforts were made to improve visibility for lookouts. As an example, the three great liners built by Hamburg-Amerika Line just before World War I, the Imperator, Vaterland and Bismarck* (not to be confused with the battleship of the same name) were equipped with the most powerful searchlights available at the time, starting with the Imperator, which entered into service shortly after the Titanic disaster and which was larger than Titanic.

This is also why the navigation bridges and conning towers of battleships, cruisers and destroyers were elevated, particularly in American ships (which tended to give American ships a high center of gravity and thus a tendency to roll quite a bit, which resulted in increased amounts of seasickness among American sailors vs. their counterparts from other countries. Historically, the bridges of battleships were open to afford maximum visibility, although the Iowa class battleships were modified while under construction to feature an enclosed bridge for increased comfort. An armored conning tower provided protection from enemy gunfire on the Iowa class. The British stuck with open bridges a bit longer, and these might have been safer during battle than the enclosed bridges on American ships, since there were no windows to shoot out, but the safest option was the enclosed conning tower with periscopes combined with multiple helm control and engine telegraph locations throughout the ship on the Iowa class and other American ships, which ensured that the ship could be controlled from a number of locations even if she took a direct hit on the bridge.

* The German liners Imperator, Vaterland and Bismarck were seized as reparations after WW I becoming, respectively, the Cunard Line RMS Berengaria, replacing the sunken Lusitania, the United States Lines SS Leviathan, and the White Star Line RMS Majestic, replacing the sunken Brittanic, the third member of the Olympic Class, which never entered passenger service but was used as a hospital ship until she was sunk in the Mediterranean. Thus the tragedy was that of those three beautiful ships, only one, the Olympic, had a full career. The Olympic and the Mauretania, which held the Blue Riband until at least the late 1920s, were retired and scrapped in the 1930s, which is a shame as Mauretania was fast enough to have been usable as a troop ship along the lines of RMS Queen Mary and RMS Queen Elizabeth, as were the three German liners, while amazingly, the much loved RMS Aquitania, the last four stack liner in service, managed to survive WWII and was used for repatriation “austerity” services after the end of WWII, not being retired until 1947 or 1948 (in her final year of service, she was quite decrepit, and at one point a deckplate gave way causing a piano to crash through to the deck below).
 
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The Liturgist

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No worries, I'm out of here & I'll leave you all to live in your fairy tale world. :wave:

View attachment 355011

None of us believe the Earth looks anything like that. I can understand how the posts of some members might come across to you as belittling or demeaning, but in the Christian faith, we are not to repay evil for evil. Therefore, if anyone mocks you for your beliefs, you should not mock them.

For that matter, my main objection to your arguments has always been towards the things you have had to say attacking the character of astronauts, scientists, etc, which are ad hominem attacks which are inherently illogical and also uncharitable. And I have offered to share with you, and have shared with you, certain approaches to believing in a flat Earth which would not require accusing anyone of intentional dishonesty.

I am further prepared to work with you personally and individually to explain these concepts and also to explain anything you might not understand about the shape of tne world. On my next trip to the UK, I could take you and your husband on a guided trip around the UK or further afield (Europe and/or the Mediterranean) in order to show you the things I saw in my youth that I believe would allow you to at least understand why those of us who believe in a round Earth believe that to be the case.
 
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Astrid

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It is also worth pointing out, prior to modern navigation techniques and radar, tended to have a Crow's Nest at the top of the ship to act as a lookout position, since a person in that nest could see farther than a person on the deck of the ship (could see further over the curve). If the Earth was flat, there would be no reason for a Crow's Nest, as a person on the deck would be able to see just as far as the person in the Crow's Nest.
True but there’s more to it than that.
 
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Astrid

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None of us believe the Earth looks anything like that. I can understand how the posts of some members might come across to you as belittling or demeaning, but in the Christian faith, we are not to repay evil for evil. Therefore, if anyone mocks you for your beliefs, you should not mock them.

For that matter, my main objection to your arguments has always been towards the things you have had to say attacking the character of astronauts, scientists, etc, which are ad hominem attacks which are inherently illogical and also uncharitable. And I have offered to share with you, and have shared with you, certain approaches to believing in a flat Earth which would not require accusing anyone of intentional dishonesty.

I am further prepared to work with you personally and individually to explain these concepts and also to explain anything you might not understand about the shape of tne world. On my next trip to the UK, I could take you and your husband on a guided trip around the UK or further afield (Europe and/or the Mediterranean) in order to show you the things I saw in my youth that I believe would allow you to at least understand why those of us who believe in a round Earth believe that to be the case.
I would not say “ round earth“ is something to “ believe in” l as in a “ belief”.
 
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David Lamb

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I would not say “ round earth“ is something to “ believe in” l as in a “ belief”.
I wouldn't use the word "round" in the context of a discussion about whether the earth is flat or not, because both globes and discs are round (at least in British English - maybe it's different in other English-speaking countries.)
 
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Astrid

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I wouldn't use the word "round" in the context of a discussion about whether the earth is flat or not, because both globes and discs are round (at least in British English - maybe it's different in other English-speaking countries.)
Oblate spheroid for the pedantic
 
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Astrid

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I wouldn't use the word "round" in the context of a discussion about whether the earth is flat or not, because both globes and discs are round (at least in British English - maybe it's different in other English-speaking countries.)
Did you ever figure out who thinks ” flood “ water
was wafted to Neptune?
 
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The Liturgist

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I would not say “ round earth“ is something to “ believe in” l as in a “ belief”.

Just because something is objectively true (such as the superiority of classical music to the noise generated by the record industry for commercial purposes with technologies such as AutoTune to compensate for the lack of actual singing ability by their “artists”) does not mean that it is not something that we also believe.

One can believe things that are objectively true, but which one may or may not have the ability to verify, as well as things which are objectively false, and things which are subjective (for example, classical vs. jazz music is subjective).
 
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Apple Sky

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I wouldn't use the word "round" in the context of a discussion about whether the earth is flat or not, because both globes and discs are round

I would use the word circular to describe the earth.

King James Bible
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
 
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David Lamb

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I would use the word circular to describe the earth.

King James Bible
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Yes, I know you keep quoting that verse, but as I and others have said before, the word for "circle" in Hebrew can equally well be translated "circuit" or "compass.":

“Thick clouds [are] a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.” (Job 22:14 AV)

“When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:” (Pr 8:27 AV)

Those two verses, plus the one you quoted, are the only times the word is used in the Old Testament.

Also, those of us who believe the earth to be a globe would say that a globe or sphere has circles - the equator is one. (I am not saying that the verse you quoted means that God sits on the equator, of course.)

"The circle of the earth" doesn't mean, "The earth is a circle," just as "an owl of the desert" doesn't mean, "The desert is an owl" in Psalm 102:

“I am like a pelican of the wilderness: I am like an owl of the desert.” (Ps 102:6 AV)
 
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Astrid

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Yes, I know you keep quoting that verse, but as I and others have said before, the word for "circle" in Hebrew can equally well be translated "circuit" or "compass.":

“Thick clouds [are] a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.” (Job 22:14 AV)

“When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:” (Pr 8:27 AV)

Those two verses, plus the one you quoted, are the only times the word is used in the Old Testament.

Also, those of us who believe the earth to be a globe would say that a globe or sphere has circles - the equator is one. (I am not saying that the verse you quoted means that God sits on the equator, of course.)

"The circle of the earth" doesn't mean, "The earth is a circle," just as "an owl of the desert" doesn't mean, "The desert is an owl" in Psalm 102:

“I am like a pelican of the wilderness: I am like an owl of the desert.” (Ps 102:6 AV)
When the Bible is as profoundly counterfactual as to
describe six day creation and world wide flood, what’s the
issue about whether the writers thought the world is flat?
 
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Astrid

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No, I didn't. I just know it wasn't me.
Just so you won’t continue to
deny that anyone could believe
such , it’s “av”
Just because something is objectively true (such as the superiority of classical music to the noise generated by the record industry for commercial purposes with technologies such as AutoTune to compensate for the lack of actual singing ability by their “artists”) does not mean that it is not something that we also believe.

One can believe things that are objectively true, but which one may or may not have the ability to verify, as well as things which are objectively false, and things which are subjective (for example, classical vs. jazz music is subjective).
See “ a belief”.
 
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David Lamb

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When the Bible is as profoundly counterfactual as to
describe six day creation and world wide flood, what’s the
issue about whether the writers thought the world is flat?
Well, I for one don't believe that the bible is "counterfactual" at all, let alone "profoundly counterfactual" when it describes six day creation and world wide flood. That doesn't mean that I believe the earth is a flat disc, I must hasten to add.
 
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David Lamb

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Just so you won’t continue to
deny that anyone could believe
such , it’s “av”
I can't find my post in which I answered what you wrote about some believing that the flood waters were transported to Neptune - I have searched back a few pages on this thread - but as far as I remember, I didn't deny that anybody believed such a thing, but said that I had never seen/heard anybody say/write that they believed it. You say it was AV, but I couldn't find anyone with that user name. There is AV1611 and AV1611VET. Not to worry!
 
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The Liturgist

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When the Bible is as profoundly counterfactual as to
describe six day creation and world wide flood, what’s the
issue about whether the writers thought the world is flat?

You know, as a guest on a Christian forum, I feel you should be more respectful of our beliefs. There are many different interpretations of Genesis, many of which following the Alexandrian system of typological prophecy are primarily Christological (and that the Old Testament is to be read Christological prophecy is expressed very clearly by our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ), and these interpretations are compatible with scientific evidence concerning the history of the universe, and indeed much of modern astrophysics and cosmology has been the work of Christians, including the idea of the Big Bang, which originated with a Roman Catholic priest, Fr. Georges Lemaitre.
 
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Astrid

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You know, as a guest on a Christian forum, I feel you should be more respectful of our beliefs. There are many different interpretations of Genesis, many of which following the Alexandrian system of typological prophecy are primarily Christological (and that the Old Testament is to be read Christological prophecy is expressed very clearly by our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ), and these interpretations are compatible with scientific evidence concerning the history of the universe, and indeed much of modern astrophysics and cosmology has been the work of Christians, including the idea of the Big Bang, which originated with a Roman Catholic priest, Fr. Georges Lemaitre.
A guest,as in one of lesser status than you?

The provision for atheist commentary is there for a reason, don’t you think?

if you are offended by a pov that does not align with the one youve
chosen , there is a safe zone where you won’t have to see any competing pov

Do you find it disrespectful to point out that some readings are not merely factually
contrafactual, but an insult to intelligence and any God that may exist?

I have far more respect than those who find the Bible
supports black slavery, torture of dissenters, or, ftm,
last thursdayism.

Theres s nothing I could say even if I wanted to discredit
the Bible- which is pointless and I don’t-to compete with the
words of believers who employ blatant falsehoods and
absurdities to “ prove” their grotesque versions or that which
is real, holy and good.

if the Bible were in fact “ very clear” there’d be no room
for such madness.

Please Identify any disrespect I ever show toward
Christianity.
 
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