Science (observations in nature) - supports creation not evolution. So does the Bible

[Jerry N.]

I think the laws for producing life had to have been programmed from the very beginning. Even if we say that life came from chemical interactions and certain conditions the laws for that possibility had to have been there already. Thats just simple logic.

Most major body plans are found in the Cambrian explosion. So at least from here all life already had the program suites to produce body plans, eyes, wings ect.

Any function requires multiple and coordinated mechanisms happening at the same time. Eyes come with nervers and neurons, arms come with the muscles, tendons, blood cells, tissue and many oher functions to work.

We see this in development in the womb. Studies have shown that the genetic programs can be manipulated where eyes or wings can be produced on other parts of the body. So there is much plasticity going on within the existing programs.

The idea is when a creature adapts there is an interaction between their bodies and the environment which acts on them and leads to adaptations which are not random but geared towards certain forms. Its not purely a genetic to phenotype relation but also with tissues and cells thus making it a more multidimensional process. Which also includes connections with other creatures sharing in recipricle relations of change.

Life is designed to adapt and its not natural random and blind forces acting on creatures as passive actors that makes change but the creature itself which directs the evolution either through their own blue prints designed to adapt or their own intelligence and agency which is also designed to adapt.

It wasn’t so long ago that scientists thought that single-cell organisms were simple in design. So it was not unreasonable for Darwin and others to misunderstand the complexity. Now the complexity they have found in tiny microscopic organisms boggles the mind. Not only are the movements, mechanisms, and chemical interactions extremely complex, they are done with an astounding precision and timing. Just like in atomic physics, size does not always determine complexity.

 

[stevevw]

It wasn’t so long ago that scientists thought that single-cell organisms were simple in design. So it was not unreasonable for Darwin and others to misunderstand the complexity. Now the complexity they have found in tiny microscopic organisms boggles the mind. Not only are the movements, mechanisms, and chemical interactions extremely complex, they are done with an astounding precision and timing. Just like in atomic physics, size does not always determine complexity.

Its the same for just about every scientific domain like cosmology, physics and Anthropology. As tech gets better like with the JWT and of course QM which is just getting weirder all the time. We are seeing greater design not necessarily always more complex though that certainy is a big part. But simpler as well. Its like a big clock and all aspects are working together in harmony.

There are discoveries in evolution that are showing creatures are not just passive blobs acted upon by outside forces but are self organising and directed towards well suited and adaptive change. Ofcourse God would have designed his creation that way.

But then this is in harmony with what we find in Physics and the problem of consciousness, the conscious observer is also not some passive blob but entangled in reality.

Then we see the JWT discovering massive galaxies that should not be there. Almost as though our universe just keeps going on and on and on the same repeating itself and no beginning.

Yet the laws or whatever you want to call them, the possibility that intelligent conscious life could happen even by some chemical interaction had to be programmed from the beginning. And here we are.

 

[Jerry N.]

Its the same for just about every scientific domain like cosmology, physics and Anthropology. As tech gets better like with the JWT and of course QM which is just getting weirder all the time. We are seeing greater design not necessarily always more complex though that certainy is a big part. But simpler as well. Its like a big clock and all aspects are working together in harmony.

There are discoveries in evolution that are showing creatures are not just passive blobs acted upon by outside forces but are self organising and directed towards well suited and adaptive change. Ofcourse God would have designed his creation that way.

But then this is in harmony with what we find in Physics and the problem of consciousness, the conscious observer is also not some passive blob but entangled in reality.

Then we see the JWT discovering massive galaxies that should not be there. Almost as though our universe just keeps going on and on and on the same repeating itself and no beginning.

Yet the laws or whatever you want to call them, the possibility that intelligent conscious life could happen even by some chemical interaction had to be programmed from the beginning. And here we are.

I assume JWT is the James Webb Telescope. Isaiah 42:5 “Who created the heavens and stretched them out, …” Some people use this to explain the problem with time, the movement of light, and the actual location of the stars in relation to time on earth. I’m not purporting young earth theory, but something seems off. If quantum physics is affected by the observer, can it be the same with light from the universe? Is the speed of light that variable?

My wife needs to use a microscope to find out what parasites are affecting sick animals. I am “blessed” with details at the breakfast table. The nasty little things seem to be governed by more than stimulus and response.

 

[Diamond72]

We see this in development in the womb. Studies have shown that the genetic programs can be manipulated where eyes or wings can be produced on other parts of the body. So there is much plasticity going on within the existing programs.

This was the plot for a movie called "The Fly". The film's plot involves a mad scientist who accidentally merges his DNA with that of a fly during an experiment, leading to disastrous results. It’s a story that deals with themes of science gone wrong, identity, and transformation.

 

[Diamond72]

QM which is just getting weirder all the time

My son was working on a project to make silicone based nano resisters. It was not his fault but someone on his team made a mistake and shut down production for one hour. It cost them one million dollars to get everything up and running again. The factory they were building: Wolfspeed cost 15 billion dollars to build. They were going to build it in china but the Chinese were 4 or 5 months behind on their contracts so they decided to build it here in the states.

The CHIPS Act provides substantial incentives for semiconductor manufacturers to invest in U.S. facilities, including grants, tax credits, and subsidies to encourage the development of new manufacturing plants and the expansion of existing ones. Wolfspeed is one of the companies positioning itself to benefit from the CHIPS Act as it looks to expand its manufacturing footprint.

 

[DennisF]

Nothing has been added from the beginning. The beginning is the smallest unit of time that physics will allow. We know that there are 9,192,631,770 oscillations in a second. So from that perspective one oscillation is the smallest unit of time on our clocks and watches. When are atomic.

The problem is we can only see the effect. We can not see the laws or the cause.

Fine-Tuning of the Universe: Many scientists and philosophers argue that the universe appears to be finely tuned for life. The fundamental physical constants and laws of nature are such that, even slight variations could make life as we know it impossible. This has led to discussions about whether this fine-tuning is a result of chance, necessity, or design.

You got me; what has a frequency of 9.192 GHz that is so interesting (except to electronics engineers)? You might know that this is in the microwave band but there is electromagnetic radiation (EMR) with much higher frequencies than this - x-rays for instance, and even visible light is in the THz range, about 1000 times higher in frequency.

The fine-tuning argument, otherwise known as the anthropic cosmological principle of Tipler and Barrow, is a discussion unto itself. Their book by that name is well-argued, but the fact that there are planets around nearby stars that are in the life-zone (have temperatures allowing liquid water) in their orbits suggests that life might not be so rare Out There.

If you believe the biblical accounts of angels, gods, etc. as real beings within the world of human experience - beings more advanced than we are who are from the "heavens" (outer space) - then where are they from? Which star systems? Some people nowadays have a neoplatonic dualistsic (pagan) view of the Bible and relegate whatever reality is described in the Bible to what I call Bible World - some alternative reality that is not what we know or experience. By the Hebrew view of the singular givenness by God of the Creation, these advanced beings - gods, by definition - are also part of the same creation we are and hence must be from some other planet out there. Consequently, the hypothesis of Tipler & Barrow might be too extreme in reducing the probability of life to our planet alone in the entire universe of an estimated 10^20 star systems.

 

[stevevw]

I am wondering if the people mentioned in Gensis 'men and women of great renown' are not some pre flood advanced people who were wiped out by the flood.

Nothing is mentioned as to who they were but they are mentioned as though referring to their high status and how they became to big for their boots and were no longer in the story.

I am not sure about an alien race but perhaps a human race that was around for 1,600 years which is quite some time if we assume humans were just as capable from Adam to think intelligently. But the teck and knowledge was not expressed in the way we do today. It was more linked to nature and consciousness and expressed in the advanced structures and beliefs. What we today think is amazing for that time but try to claim it was a matter of effort and time.

It was from this point of advancement that humankind was reset and more or less began again after the flood. Yet not all knowledge was lost which gave humankind a kickstart to rebuild civilization which we find in areas like Mesopotamia which strangly also refer back to people, their ancestors that came before with great knowledge that was lost.

It may be that because humankind before the flood was closer to the point of creation these God conscious humans were more in tune with some special knowledge we have lost associated with spirituality and nature that allowed great tech such as what we see in these ancient cultures such as with geometry and astrology and working with massive structures and precision form work that seems well advanced of these ancient peoples.

 

[Jerry N.]

You got me; what has a frequency of 9.192 GHz that is so interesting (except to electronics engineers)? You might know that this is in the microwave band but there is electromagnetic radiation (EMR) with much higher frequencies than this - x-rays for instance, and even visible light is in the THz range, about 1000 times higher in frequency.

The fine-tuning argument, otherwise known as the anthropic cosmological principle of Tipler and Barrow, is a discussion unto itself. Their book by that name is well-argued, but the fact that there are planets around nearby stars that are in the life-zone (have temperatures allowing liquid water) in their orbits suggests that life might not be so rare Out There.

If you believe the biblical accounts of angels, gods, etc. as real beings within the world of human experience - beings more advanced than we are who are from the "heavens" (outer space) - then where are they from? Which star systems? Some people nowadays have a neoplatonic dualistsic (pagan) view of the Bible and relegate whatever reality is described in the Bible to what I call Bible World - some alternative reality that is not what we know or experience. By the Hebrew view of the singular givenness by God of the Creation, these advanced beings - gods, by definition - are also part of the same creation we are and hence must be from some other planet out there. Consequently, the hypothesis of Tipler & Barrow might be too extreme in reducing the probability of life to our planet alone in the entire universe of an estimated 10^20 star systems.

Back in college, we did a series of math exercises on how a four-dimensional creature would interact with our three-dimensional world. I’ve forgotten the math now, but I remember that the four-dimensional creatures could do amazing things. One I remember is that they could circle the earth and return to their starting point slightly before they left from a three-dimensional point of view. Since then, I have always wondered if that was the spiritual realm.

I don’t see how life in other places in the universe negates the Bible. As human beings, we often lump things in small categories. Today, some people see unexplained things as spiritual, while others see things from outer space, and others see only strange natural phenomena.

 

[Diamond72]

If you believe the biblical accounts of angels, gods, etc. as real beings within the world of human experience - beings more advanced than we are who are from the "heavens" (outer space) - then where are they from?

• Job 38:4-7: This passage suggests that angels (referred to as the "morning stars" and "sons of God") were present and rejoicing during the creation of the world, implying that they existed before the creation of the Earth.
• Psalm 148:2-5: These verses praise God for His creation, including angels, suggesting that angels were part of God’s creative acts, possibly before the creation of the physical world.

Theological Perspectives:​

• Traditional Christian View: Many Christian theologians believe that angels were created by God as part of the spiritual realm before the creation of the physical universe. This view aligns with the idea that angels are spiritual beings who serve God and fulfill divine purposes.

I believe Heaven is another planet. Not everyone gets into Heaven. So they would have to be assigned to a different planet. Or a different dimension. Our physical body does not go to Heaven. Our physical body or the elements that make up our physical body stays here on the earth. Dust to dust, ashes to ashes.

Ecclesiastes 3:20: "All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust."

Many religious traditions describe Heaven as a spiritual realm rather than a physical place.

• 1 Corinthians 15:42-44: "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."
• Philippians 3:20-21: "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."

 

[Diamond72]

I am wondering if the people mentioned in Gensis 'men and women of great renown' are not some pre flood advanced people who were wiped out by the flood.

"when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them." Genesis 6:4:

Luke 3:38: In the genealogy of Jesus, Adam is called "the son of God." This passage traces the lineage of Jesus back to Adam, explicitly stating: "the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."

I believe this means that the children of Adam married women that were not descended from Adam. What we would call the gentiles. Jesus called them dogs. Or some say the descendants of Cain.

 

[Jerry N.]

"when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them." Genesis 6:4:

Luke 3:38: In the genealogy of Jesus, Adam is called "the son of God." This passage traces the lineage of Jesus back to Adam, explicitly stating: "the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."

I believe this means that the children of Adam married women that were not descended from Adam. What we would call the gentiles. Jesus called them dogs. Or some say the descendants of Cain.

Neanderthals are depicted more and more like modern humans as time goes by. There is also DNA evidence that they breed with modern humans. Maybe they were created outside the Garden of Eden along with many other animals. Cain said, “…anyone who finds me will kill me.” These may be Neanderthals rather than Cain’s brothers and sisters. When Noah is said to be “perfect in his generations” (Gen 6:9), he might have had unmixed DNA, but his son’s wives did not.

 

[stevevw]

"when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them." Genesis 6:4:

Luke 3:38: In the genealogy of Jesus, Adam is called "the son of God." This passage traces the lineage of Jesus back to Adam, explicitly stating: "the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."

I believe this means that the children of Adam married women that were not descended from Adam. What we would call the gentiles. Jesus called them dogs. Or some say the descendants of Cain.

OK so it seems the line of Seth at least produced the line of Christ. But these must have all passed when the flood came. The only person worthy was Noah and his family.

That means everyone from the Seth and Cain ended up sinners except Christs line which by the time the flood happened only Noah was left. So even the decendent of Seth became sinners.

But was Noah a Huner Gatherer. It seems not. He was able to build an ark. Perhaps this was the time when hunter gatherers were moving into agriculture and social organisation with religious worship.

Maybe from Adam when God said to go forth and cultivate the land and that humans will now have to toil and till the soil that this was also the time when humans were becoming more organised and religious. They then strayed from God, built Temples to their Pagan Gods and got to a point where they were sacrificing to their Gods and sinning by the time Noah came on the scene.

 

[Diamond72]

But was Noah a Huner Gatherer. It seems not. He was able to build an ark. Perhaps this was the time when hunter gatherers were moving into agriculture and social organisation with religious worship.

The Bible is clear that before Adam there was no one to plow the land. Genesis 2:5-7

• Adam → Seth → Enos → Cainan → Mahalalel → Jared → Enoch → Methuselah → Lamech → Noah

Noah's story is central to the biblical narrative of the Great Flood and the subsequent repopulation of the earth through his three sons and their descendants. The Bible uses the word generations. Today we say genealogy. The Bible only keeps track of the descendants of Adam and Eve to Joseph and Mary. When we get to Heaven I look forward to seeing the first conversation between Eve and Mary. The Bible records the conversation between Mary and Elizebeth, but I get in trouble when I talk about two pregnant women and the babies in their womb. Now that I think about it Mary and Eve both had babies so they could talk about that.

What is interesting is that Noah's father and Adam were both alive for a short period of time. Maybe Adam told Lamech what life was like in Eden before they got kicked out.

• Adam lived 930 years. We are told he gave 70 years to David.
• Lamech was born when Adam was 874 years old.
• Therefore, Lamech and Adam were alive at the same time for 56 years (930 - 874 = 56).

Science is very very interested in how hunter gathers became civilized. They esp want to know how farming spread from the Middle East in the Tigris Euphrates river valley to Europe. Esp wheat and barley because they make beer from barley. But that was after they started making clay jars. Before that they used baskets.

Isaiah 64:8: "Yet you, Lord, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand."

I know, my thinking drifts a lot and it is difficult for me to stay focused.

 

[Diamond72]

Neanderthals are depicted more and more like modern humans as time goes by.

Exodus 23:29-30 (NIV): "But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land."

 

[Jerry N.]

Exodus 23:29-30 (NIV): "But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land."

Interesting thought. I would have never made the connection. Thanks.

 

[DennisF]

Back in college, we did a series of math exercises on how a four-dimensional creature would interact with our three-dimensional world. I’ve forgotten the math now, but I remember that the four-dimensional creatures could do amazing things. One I remember is that they could circle the earth and return to their starting point slightly before they left from a three-dimensional point of view. Since then, I have always wondered if that was the spiritual realm.

I don’t see how life in other places in the universe negates the Bible. As human beings, we often lump things in small categories. Today, some people see unexplained things as spiritual, while others see things from outer space, and others see only strange natural phenomena.

I understand the word "spiritual" as referring to interaction with God or the gods (including angels, seraphim, cherubim, ETs, you-name-it) and that the "spiritual realm" is for us the Creation - the singular physical world in which we live, a world that extends to the far reaches of the universe and wherever God/gods interact with us. When we petition God (pray), that is a spiritual act; when someone petitions a U.S. District Court, that is not. (God is not given jurisdiction under the apostasy that is U.S. law and does not have legal standing.)

Christian theology nowadays has not yet recovered from the incursion of pagan beliefs acquired during the Middle Ages, when the Greek and Roman writings were re-discovered. Pagan gods could interact with the physical world without regard to law because their only law was their own self-will. They were fickle and unpredictable, and the best one could do was to appease them. The pagan worldview precludes any point in doing science because the gods could be irrational in their behavior and hence the physical world could not be rationally understood.

The Hebrew God, in contrast, relates to humanity on the basis of a covenant which has constraints on how each party is to perform under the covenant (law), and this is reflected in how God acts in the physical world. One of the central characteristics of Yahweh to the Israelites was his hesed - his faithfulness in keeping his obligations under the covenant, and hence his reliability and predictability. Seeing that the physical world is managed in this way, it is possible to do science because we can depend on God to faithfully uphold the laws governing the behavior of what he created. God does not wave a magic wand, and the pagan view of miracles does not occur because God is not at odds with himself in bringing about miracles by acting in a way that is inconsistent with his creational upholding behaviors. What God does in scripture that we cannot explain scientifically does not mean that God has to break the laws of physics to bring them about, but rather, that we do not yet understand enough about physics to explain them scientifically. The creation holds for science more interesting surprises.

This relates to your comments in that I agree there is no dualism of worlds in the biblical-Hebrew worldview, no alternative world of ideals that I call Bible World. It is all one world in which we interact with God, now and in the biblically-foreseen future. Consequently, the gods are what in modern parlance we refer to as ETs. Angels are ETs, not beings from some alternative reality. Anything or anyone that has been created and that interacts with us is also part of the creation and is subject to the same physics as we are.

As for uncreated reality, I cannot say. I leave speculations of that kind (reminiscent of the pagan Greeks) to professional theologians and philosophers, who are paid to come up with "new ideas". Scripture does not induce us to contemplate what is beyond our ability to comprehend, though infinity-words are put into translations such as forever, all, every, eternal, ... They do not appear as such in Hebrew.

 

[Jerry N.]

I understand the word "spiritual" as referring to interaction with God or the gods (including angels, seraphim, cherubim, ETs, you-name-it) and that the "spiritual realm" is for us the Creation - the singular physical world in which we live, a world that extends to the far reaches of the universe and wherever God/gods interact with us. When we petition God (pray), that is a spiritual act; when someone petitions a U.S. District Court, that is not. (God is not given jurisdiction under the apostasy that is U.S. law and does not have legal standing.)

Christian theology nowadays has not yet recovered from the incursion of pagan beliefs acquired during the Middle Ages, when the Greek and Roman writings were re-discovered. Pagan gods could interact with the physical world without regard to law because their only law was their own self-will. They were fickle and unpredictable, and the best one could do was to appease them. The pagan worldview precludes any point in doing science because the gods could be irrational in their behavior and hence the physical world could not be rationally understood.

The Hebrew God, in contrast, relates to humanity on the basis of a covenant which has constraints on how each party is to perform under the covenant (law), and this is reflected in how God acts in the physical world. One of the central characteristics of Yahweh to the Israelites was his hesed - his faithfulness in keeping his obligations under the covenant, and hence his reliability and predictability. Seeing that the physical world is managed in this way, it is possible to do science because we can depend on God to faithfully uphold the laws governing the behavior of what he created. God does not wave a magic wand, and the pagan view of miracles does not occur because God is not at odds with himself in bringing about miracles by acting in a way that is inconsistent with his creational upholding behaviors. What God does in scripture that we cannot explain scientifically does not mean that God has to break the laws of physics to bring them about, but rather, that we do not yet understand enough about physics to explain them scientifically. The creation holds for science more interesting surprises.

This relates to your comments in that I agree there is no dualism of worlds in the biblical-Hebrew worldview, no alternative world of ideals that I call Bible World. It is all one world in which we interact with God, now and in the biblically-foreseen future. Consequently, the gods are what in modern parlance we refer to as ETs. Angels are ETs, not beings from some alternative reality. Anything or anyone that has been created and that interacts with us is also part of the creation and is subject to the same physics as we are.

As for uncreated reality, I cannot say. I leave speculations of that kind (reminiscent of the pagan Greeks) to professional theologians and philosophers, who are paid to come up with "new ideas". Scripture does not induce us to contemplate what is beyond our ability to comprehend, though infinity-words are put into translations such as forever, all, every, eternal, ... They do not appear as such in Hebrew.

God saw everything He made was good, so He is not going to break the laws He made very often. However, if He chooses to do something that breaks His physical laws, He can, and I believe He does. He displays His power over the world He made for His glory and to teach us. The miracles Jesus did were probably a combination of both using and overriding the laws of the creation. All sorts of sicknesses have been cured by God's power, but there is only one case I've ever heard of a limb growing back.

 

[DennisF]

• Job 38:4-7: This passage suggests that angels (referred to as the "morning stars" and "sons of God") were present and rejoicing during the creation of the world, implying that they existed before the creation of the Earth.
• Psalm 148:2-5: These verses praise God for His creation, including angels, suggesting that angels were part of God’s creative acts, possibly before the creation of the physical world.

Theological Perspectives:​

• Traditional Christian View: Many Christian theologians believe that angels were created by God as part of the spiritual realm before the creation of the physical universe. This view aligns with the idea that angels are spiritual beings who serve God and fulfill divine purposes.

I believe Heaven is another planet. Not everyone gets into Heaven. So they would have to be assigned to a different planet. Or a different dimension. Our physical body does not go to Heaven. Our physical body or the elements that make up our physical body stays here on the earth. Dust to dust, ashes to ashes.

Ecclesiastes 3:20: "All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust."

Many religious traditions describe Heaven as a spiritual realm rather than a physical place.

• 1 Corinthians 15:42-44: "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."
• Philippians 3:20-21: "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."

Okay, let's go through some of your interesting comments.

1. Job 38:4-7 - I can see how you (and others) might give this text the sense you give it, but if you take it in a developmental context as in Gen. 1, which gives the creation in stages (days), the key question then is what the scope of the creation account is. Is it limited to the earth and surrounding bright things in the sky (Gen 1:1 - shamayim (skies) and eretz (land)) or does it refer to the entire modern cosmological conception of the universe? I don't exactly know the answer but I would lean in the direction of the more limited scope. Why? Because that is the style of presentation throughout scripture. It is the Hebrew way of thinking, in contrast to the Greeks, whose intellectual schemes tried to outdo the creation and hence God himself. Beings superior to us (angels, descendants of the gods) arrive in creation before Adamites (us) and hence are more advanced than we are, but that doesn't make them any less created than us.

2. Psalm 148:2-5 - Angels are created beings. if they are part of the creation, then they have a physical existence. Whenever angels appear in scripture, they have physical characteristics.

3. "the spiritual realm" and "spiritual beings" - This kind of teaching is the product of medieval acceptance of Greek (pagan) dualism, where Plato postulated a world of ideals apart from the real world. The Bible has no such concept. (I call it Bible World.) I understand "spiritual' to mean that which has to do with our relationship or interaction with superior beings (gods, which includes angels, seraphims, etc.) and most significantly, God (Yahweh, where Jesus is the human incarnation of Yahweh). God is a spirit (breath) but we also are, and the word is not explained in scripture in a scientifically or psychologically satisfying way, so I wouldn't put too much weight on it ontologically. It appears to refer to the systemic property of organisms as being alive. In scripture, even animals have "a spirit". It must have something to do with the thermodynamic non-equilibrium of being alive.

The ancient view was that there are 3 levels of "heaven" (shamayim in Hebrew, ouranos in Greek): 1. the sky or what we would call the troposphere, where weather occurs, birds fly, leaves fall; 2. where the sun, moon, and (bright visible) stars are, or to us, visible outer space. The stars in the ancient world were any bright points of light in the sky, including planets, asteroids, meteors, and star constellations; 3. where God is - beyond # 2? - how much beyond is not stated; some say it is in eternity, but this infinity-word does not appear in scripture. It might refer to extragalactic space, or another part of the Milky Way; nobody really knows (that I know).

4. Ecclesiastes 3:20 - This simply means that we are physical, conception to burial. We do not become Neoplatonic Bible World Beings. When we are resurrected, it will be a physical resurrection with new, improved hardware, just as our example, the first result of what we will be like: the resurrected Jesus.

5. "Many religious traditions describe Heaven as a spiritual realm rather than a physical place." Yes, many religions have a pagan or dualistic basis, including some of which has permeated Christianity.

6. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 - Note that it is a body that is raised; bodies are physical. To call it a "spiritual body" simply means that our brains will be architected differently to preclude the tendency of the "natural body" to sin. It is a different body design, not a non-body.

7. Philippians 3:20-21 - same point: new, improved hardware.

 

[DennisF]

God saw everything He made was good, so He is not going to break the laws He made very often. However, if He chooses to do something that breaks His physical laws, He can, and I believe He does. He displays His power over the world He made for His glory and to teach us. The miracles Jesus did were probably a combination of both using and overriding the laws of the creation. All sorts of sicknesses have been cured by God's power, but there is only one case I've ever heard of a limb growing back.

If you believe that God (Yahweh) not only created the world but also holds it in being, then how he holds it in being establishes a pattern that we humans codify into what we call the "laws of nature" (science), though it is the behavioral patterns of God that are being codified and that reflect his character.
Are you with me this far?
Thus science is only possible because God is hesed (faithful) in being consistent in how he sustains the creation. If he were not, it would not be possible to even have scientific knowledge, because it would not be possible to determine whether observable data is due to God's faithfulness or from his deviation of his characteristic behavior ("breaking his own laws").
Okay so far?
God did not "create" the laws of nature as though they have an existence independent of himself but he maintains them through his ongoing holding of the Creation in being. We (scientists) observe these behaviors as reliable patterns expressed as "laws" that can reliably predict what God will do in sustaining the Creation in the future. This makes both science and engineering possible.
Okay so far?
Instead of trying to explain miracles as God breaking his own laws, we can instead recognize that God behaves consistent with his own character (hesed). Events (miracles) that we cannot explain are a part of his larger consistent behavior that we do not yet know how to explain scientifically, though we believe it is possible. We believe that everything God does with the Creation has a rational scientific explanation if only we knew it. In Hebrews 11, faith is defined as a kind of trust in prediction (hope) and theory (what is not observed). This kind of faith is what made science possible historically.

Example: The scriptures give us the physical mechanism that God applied in the parting of the sea of the Exodus: a strong wind. This must have seemed like a pagan type of miracle (God's magic wand) to some in the centuries past, but in more recent times, the study of hydraulics has advanced to where you can find in most textbooks on fluid mechanics where a discontinuity or step of water occurs in shallow channels under a strong surface wind. This cause God used is a part of the larger rational understanding of fluidics, though this was not known until more recently. So now that it can be explained scientifically is it any more a miracle? What constitutes a miracle includes a discussion of the "God of the gaps" argument.

 

[stevevw]

The Bible is clear that before Adam there was no one to plow the land. Genesis 2:5-7

So what does that mean. There was no one around or no one capable of ploughing the land. Could this be the hunter gatherers pre agriculture.

• Adam → Seth → Enos → Cainan → Mahalalel → Jared → Enoch → Methuselah → Lamech → Noah

Noah's story is central to the biblical narrative of the Great Flood and the subsequent repopulation of the earth through his three sons and their descendants. The Bible uses the word generations. Today we say genealogy. The Bible only keeps track of the descendants of Adam and Eve to Joseph and Mary. When we get to Heaven I look forward to seeing the first conversation between Eve and Mary. The Bible records the conversation between Mary and Elizebeth, but I get in trouble when I talk about two pregnant women and the babies in their womb. Now that I think about it Mary and Eve both had babies so they could talk about that.

Wow that would be a great conversation. Also Jesus and Adam, the 1st and last Adams. Adam 1 could brag to Jesus he is number 1 lol. Jesus would say yeah look where that got ya.

What is interesting is that Noah's father and Adam were both alive for a short period of time. Maybe Adam told Lamech what life was like in Eden before they got kicked out.

• Adam lived 930 years. We are told he gave 70 years to David.
• Lamech was born when Adam was 874 years old.
• Therefore, Lamech and Adam were alive at the same time for 56 years (930 - 874 = 56).

Wow Adam would be a great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather still alive. That would be weird having someone who lived 800 plus years ago tell us what it was like. Thats like the 1200's from today. He would have been around before Australia and the US were dicovered.They would have been there for the 4th crusade.

Adam would have seen a lot of changes. I wonder if he was a wiseman and learnt his lessonto tell others. Actually Enoch, Methuselah but especially Lamech would have been living in a time when the world was decending into sin. It would have gradually got worse so Lamech and Noah would have been hiding from all the crazy stuff going on.

Science is very very interested in how hunter gathers became civilized. They esp want to know how farming spread from the Middle East in the Tigris Euphrates river valley to Europe. Esp wheat and barley because they make beer from barley. But that was after they started making clay jars. Before that they used baskets.

Isaiah 64:8: "Yet you, Lord, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand."

I know, my thinking drifts a lot and it is difficult for me to stay focused.

Thats alright, its very interesting. I like to understand how people seen things back then. Try and imagine how it would be. I like the analogy of God as the potter. It fits a time when the world where people were potters and crafters as they had to use their hands and the natural resourses.

I think apart from the practical use pottery had a religious aspect for that time. Just like the larger stone represented cultures in other time. Just as humans crafted the natural resources God crafts the human.