Science (observations in nature) - supports creation not evolution. So does the Bible

[Diamond72]

it fits exactly into the mold of amateurs making claims that are rejected by all experts in the field.

There are many reputable sources out there for exploring history and archaeology, and it's wise to focus on those that are widely respected within the academic community.

 

[Diamond72]

There's battle lines being drawn; Nobody's right if everybody's wrong.

The battle at the time was between generations. Today the civil war is between liberals and conservatives. I can remember a time when rock and roll was considered the devils music.

 

[DennisF]

You said I should read Copt's book, Missing Links in the Assyrian Tablets. Capt was a strong proponent of British-Israelism and that book is a major part of the case he made, and it fits exactly into the mold of amateurs making claims that are rejected by all experts in the field. No, I'm not going to read it.

Then you are also not going to know that nothing about "British-Israelism" appears in the book. I have read it and you could challenge your present conceits by reading it. You have nothing to rebut regarding the book, but rely upon others whom you do not cite and whose arguments you apparently are unable or unwilling to repeat here.

 

[DennisF]

I know I should always give the scripture we are talking about. In this case I am talking about Zechariah 13 "8And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ ”

People are going to say this is a prophecy written about Israel. Most theologians believe this verse also applies to the church and most of the work God did with Israel He is doing with the Church today.

In Zechariah's time, Israel was the assembly of God (that is, the church).

Some people say only 10% will be saved but I think only 10% actually represent God. As James 3:1 says: "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

In Matthew 7:14 "But small is the gate and narrow and difficult to travel is the path that leads the way to [everlasting] life, and there are few who find it." Few can mean 1/3 or anything less than half.

 

[Diamond72]

In Zechariah's time, Israel was the assembly of God (that is, the church).

• Common Mission: Both the Jewish people and the Church are seen as playing vital roles in God's plan, each bearing witness to God's work in the world in their respective ways.
• Shared Heritage: Christianity has its roots in Judaism, and both traditions share many common scriptures and beliefs about God's nature and His actions in history.

 

[DennisF]

• Common Mission: Both the Jewish people and the Church are seen as playing vital roles in God's plan, each bearing witness to God's work in the world in their respective ways.
• Shared Heritage: Christianity has its roots in Judaism, and both traditions share many common scriptures and beliefs about God's nature and His actions in history.

Christianity has its roots in the OT religion, Yahwism. Judaism departs from it, though it also has the same roots.

 

[Diamond72]

Christianity has its roots in the OT religion, Yahwism. Judaism departs from it, though it also has the same roots

The discussion has to do with the 144,000 people we read about in the book of Revelation. John tells us there are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. The sons of Jacob (who was also called Israel).

Are you telling me that these 144,000 do not represent God? Even though they gave us the Bible that as Christians we use today.

No doubt their witness is different from ours but they do know the Bible better than we do.

The idea that the teachings and laws given by Moses are foundational and complete is a significant concept in both Jewish and Christian traditions.

Context in Jewish Tradition:​

• Torah: The first five books of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Torah, are attributed to Moses and are considered the foundational texts of Judaism. These books contain the laws, commandments, and teachings given to the Israelites.
• Rabbinic Interpretation: While the Torah is seen as complete, the rabbis have developed extensive interpretations and applications of these teachings through the Talmud and other rabbinic writings. This process is seen as a way to understand and apply God's eternal laws in changing circumstances.

Context in Christian Tradition:​

• Fulfillment in Christ: Christians believe that Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses, not to abolish it. This perspective is based on passages such as Matthew 5:17-18 (NIV): "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
• New Covenant: The New Testament is seen as a continuation and fulfillment of the covenant established through Moses, bringing a new understanding through Jesus.

Respect for the Torah:​

• Divine Revelation: The Torah is regarded as the direct revelation from God to Moses and, as such, is treated with the highest respect and authority.
• Integrity of the Text: Both traditions emphasize the importance of preserving the integrity of the texts and teachings received from Moses.

This viewpoint underscores the significance of the Torah as a central and unchanging foundation for faith and practice.

 

[DennisF]

The discussion has to do with the 144,000 people we read about in the book of Revelation. John tells us there are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. The sons of Jacob (who was also called Israel).

Are you telling me that these 144,000 do not represent God? Even though they gave us the Bible that as Christians we use today.

No doubt their witness is different from ours but they do know the Bible better than we do.

The idea that the teachings and laws given by Moses are foundational and complete is a significant concept in both Jewish and Christian traditions.

Context in Jewish Tradition:​

• Torah: The first five books of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Torah, are attributed to Moses and are considered the foundational texts of Judaism. These books contain the laws, commandments, and teachings given to the Israelites.
• Rabbinic Interpretation: While the Torah is seen as complete, the rabbis have developed extensive interpretations and applications of these teachings through the Talmud and other rabbinic writings. This process is seen as a way to understand and apply God's eternal laws in changing circumstances.

Context in Christian Tradition:​

• Fulfillment in Christ: Christians believe that Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses, not to abolish it. This perspective is based on passages such as Matthew 5:17-18 (NIV): "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
• New Covenant: The New Testament is seen as a continuation and fulfillment of the covenant established through Moses, bringing a new understanding through Jesus.

Respect for the Torah:​

• Divine Revelation: The Torah is regarded as the direct revelation from God to Moses and, as such, is treated with the highest respect and authority.
• Integrity of the Text: Both traditions emphasize the importance of preserving the integrity of the texts and teachings received from Moses.

This viewpoint underscores the significance of the Torah as a central and unchanging foundation for faith and practice.

I meant what I said, not what I did not say.
As for the point you raise, keep in mind that while we use numbers almost exclusively in a numerical way, the ancients also used them symbolically. Round numbers like these give us the hint that symbolism is involved and that indeed these particular numbers have symbolic meaning.
I completely agree with the point you are making about the Torah, that it was affirmed as the Law of God by Jesus and hence is the Law of Jesus, the son of the God who gave us the Torah. This is a good point to make nowadays in that the heresy of Marcion seems to be making a revival in American Christianity in a form that I call neo-Marcionism, whereby the OT Law has been obsoleted and the "law of Jesus" - whatever that is - has replaced it. (I dwell on this more in my Eschatology Notes weblog.)

 

[DennisF]

The discussion has to do with the 144,000 people we read about in the book of Revelation. John tells us there are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. The sons of Jacob (who was also called Israel).

Are you telling me that these 144,000 do not represent God? Even though they gave us the Bible that as Christians we use today.

No doubt their witness is different from ours but they do know the Bible better than we do.

The idea that the teachings and laws given by Moses are foundational and complete is a significant concept in both Jewish and Christian traditions.

Context in Jewish Tradition:​

• Torah: The first five books of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Torah, are attributed to Moses and are considered the foundational texts of Judaism. These books contain the laws, commandments, and teachings given to the Israelites.
• Rabbinic Interpretation: While the Torah is seen as complete, the rabbis have developed extensive interpretations and applications of these teachings through the Talmud and other rabbinic writings. This process is seen as a way to understand and apply God's eternal laws in changing circumstances.

Context in Christian Tradition:​

• Fulfillment in Christ: Christians believe that Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses, not to abolish it. This perspective is based on passages such as Matthew 5:17-18 (NIV): "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
• New Covenant: The New Testament is seen as a continuation and fulfillment of the covenant established through Moses, bringing a new understanding through Jesus.

Respect for the Torah:​

• Divine Revelation: The Torah is regarded as the direct revelation from God to Moses and, as such, is treated with the highest respect and authority.
• Integrity of the Text: Both traditions emphasize the importance of preserving the integrity of the texts and teachings received from Moses.

This viewpoint underscores the significance of the Torah as a central and unchanging foundation for faith and practice.

I should add in clarification that I distinguish between Yahwism - the worldview of the people of Yahweh in OT times - and Judaism because while it is close to Yahwism (and some Judaists intend for it to be identical) the Babylonian Talmud has in it direct contradictions to the OT Law in some places. Jesus even recognized and condemned this. The chief rabbi in the USA had also made the point in a published letter some years ago that when the Judeans (lower-kingdom Israelites) came back from Babylon, they had a different religion. That is somewhat of an exaggeration because the school of Ezra retained a Yahwist orientation, but 70 years of exposure to the original center from whence all extant forms of paganism come - from the Babylonian Mystery religion - it is not surprising that many syncretistic Judeans developed into the sect of the Sadducees.

 

[Diamond72]

I should add in clarification that I distinguish between Yahwism - the worldview of the people of Yahweh in OT times - and Judaism because while it is close to Yahwism (and some Judaists intend for it to be identical) the Babylonian Talmud has in it direct contradictions to the OT Law in some places. Jesus even recognized and condemned this. The chief rabbi in the USA had also made the point in a published letter some years ago that when the Judeans (lower-kingdom Israelites) came back from Babylon, they had a different religion. That is somewhat of an exaggeration because the school of Ezra retained a Yahwist orientation, but 70 years of exposure to the original center from whence all extant forms of paganism come - from the Babylonian Mystery religion - it is not surprising that many syncretistic Judeans developed into the sect of the Sadducees.

If you remember the old pinball machines, you just tilted the game trying to compare the Pharisees with the "Jewish" community today. The main difference is the Zohar which came 1,000 years later. According to AI the teachings of the Zohar line up with the teachings of Jesus today in a number of different ways.

I never looked at or read the Zohar but I do study the teaching of the Hasidic or conservative "Jewish" beliefs. Sometimes I think that it is more fluff and puff than actual substance. They of course fall into the orthodox group compared with reform and conservative.

The reason I compare the Hasidic with the 144,000 "virgins" in the Bible is because of their purity and because they are very interested in teaching their beliefs to the non "Jewish" community today. They address this issue in the movie: "A Stranger among us". Where the focus on the New York Hasidic community. In the movie the Rabbi tries to explain how they save themselves for marriage and do not even kiss anyone other than their wife. We see this purity with the Cohan gene today.

 

[DennisF]

If you remember the old pinball machines, you just tilted the game trying to compare the Pharisees with the "Jewish" community today. The main difference is the Zohar which came 1,000 years later. According to AI the teachings of the Zohar line up with the teachings of Jesus today in a number of different ways.

I never looked at or read the Zohar but I do study the teaching of the Hasidic or conservative "Jewish" beliefs. Sometimes I think that it is more fluff and puff than actual substance. They of course fall into the orthodox group compared with reform and conservative.

The reason I compare the Hasidic with the 144,000 "virgins" in the Bible is because of their purity and because they are very interested in teaching their beliefs to the non "Jewish" community today. They address this issue in the movie: "A Stranger among us". Where the focus on the New York Hasidic community. In the movie the Rabbi tries to explain how they save themselves for marriage and do not even kiss anyone other than their wife. We see this purity with the Cohan gene today.

Certainly it is good to hear that anyone, of whatever Judaist sect, is converging with biblical teachings!

 

[Jipsah]

Science confirms that there is not one observation of dust,rocks,gas,sun-light producing a horse, or rabbit, or amoeba, or bacteria over time.

Well dang! I reckon I stop staring at the cool rock outseld my window.

Science confirms that observations of over 80,000 generations of bacteria in the "long running evolution experiment" results in "more bacteria"

Will wonders never cease? Who'd a thunk it!

- i.e. more prokaryotes - and not a single eukaryote. That's more generations of direct observation than supposedly it took for humans to evolve in the first place.

The Bible says that it is infinite capability, infinite wisdom and power that is the "cause" the origin of that vastly complex machinery with encoding, decoding , manufacture, error-correction mechanism fully functional and autonomous.

Sonuvagun!

To many rational minds this idea of the creator having more capability and intelligence than the thing created - makes sense and fits what we observe in real life.

I trust this exercise in the obvious is leading up to something...?

By contrast -- the problem for evolution's doctrine on origins is so big that we could even see a world class atheist scientist - a true believer in Evolution's doctrine on origins - lamenting the problem that they are stuck with.

Ah, this is where you declare that God Could Not Possibly Have Made Evolution Part of His Overall Design! Because, well, He just Couldn't! So there!

Sure, whatever you say....

“ I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.

Well there ya are, then! Science proves that God could not possibly have designed evoluition into His creation. End of! (Drop Mic)

 

[Jipsah]

On the other hand, if the owner of a railroad says "I built this railroad," you have no reason to think it spontaneously appeared by random chance.

So he must have created the immigrants as well.

If you wish to say that neither evolution or creation is verifiable, that would be correct. Except with creation, we have the word of the One who said. "I made that."

And being someone who has created fairly sophisticated stuff myself, I wou;ld not find it unreasonable to believe that God would not only have created all lifeforms, but that part of their design may have been (as evidence very much indicates) that part of His design was for some, if not all, of His creatures to have the ability to adapt to different environments, and to pass on those adaptations to successive generations.

Uber fundies seem to believe that God couldn't possibly have managed that, or if He could have, He surely wouldn't have, because... reasons. (The primary "reason" being, apparnently, that their denominational doctrine doesn't permit it.)

 

[Diamond72]

Certainly it is good to hear that anyone, of whatever Judaist sect, is converging with biblical teachings!

Yes, people do not seem to want to know God. They can tell you all they know about the subject in five words or less. For me all the books in the world would not be enough to talk about what God has done. People ask questions that would take a whole book to explain. So I just try to give them a summery of what that book would say.

John 21:25​

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were recorded one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books.

This verse, found in John 21:25 of the Bible, means that Jesus performed so many acts and said so many things during his ministry that if every single detail was written down, the resulting collection of books would be so vast that there wouldn't be enough space in the world to store them all; essentially signifying the immensity and fullness of Jesus' life and teachings that cannot be fully captured in a single written record.

 

[davetaff]

Yes, people do not seem to want to know God. They can tell you all they know about the subject in five words or less. For me all the books in the world would not be enough to talk about what God has done. People ask questions that would take a whole book to explain. So I just try to give them a summery of what that book would say.

John 21:25​

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were recorded one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books.

This verse, found in John 21:25 of the Bible, means that Jesus performed so many acts and said so many things during his ministry that if every single detail was written down, the resulting collection of books would be so vast that there wouldn't be enough space in the world to store them all; essentially signifying the immensity and fullness of Jesus' life and teachings that cannot be fully captured in a single written record.

Hi
Thank you for your post I am not surprised that people don't want to know about Gods salvation after al St Paul tells us.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

So it looks like that day has come so our Lords return is not to far off

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[Diamond72]

So it looks like that day has come so our Lords return is not to far off

I believe 2029 is the end of the Church age and the beginning of the Kingdom age. But I do not know for sure how one will end and the other begin.

 

[DennisF]

Yes, people do not seem to want to know God. They can tell you all they know about the subject in five words or less. For me all the books in the world would not be enough to talk about what God has done. People ask questions that would take a whole book to explain. So I just try to give them a summery of what that book would say.

John 21:25​

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were recorded one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books.

This verse, found in John 21:25 of the Bible, means that Jesus performed so many acts and said so many things during his ministry that if every single detail was written down, the resulting collection of books would be so vast that there wouldn't be enough space in the world to store them all; essentially signifying the immensity and fullness of Jesus' life and teachings that cannot be fully captured in a single written record.

Perhaps the most profound thing that Jesus did, for a person who did not write a book or star in any motion picture, is to set in motion a new kind of civilization which has unfolded over the last 2 millennia into unanticipated progress for humanity, manifesting many consequential blessings. In Western culture, institutions such as the hospital, science, modern engineering, refined jurisprudence, wealth production, etc. are all an outgrowth of culture with a dominant biblical worldview.

 

[Diamond72]

Perhaps the most profound thing that Jesus did, for a person who did not write a book or star in any motion picture, is to set in motion a new kind of civilization which has unfolded over the last 2 millennia into unanticipated progress for humanity, manifesting many consequential blessings. In Western culture, institutions such as the hospital, science, modern engineering, refined jurisprudence, wealth production, etc. are all an outgrowth of culture with a dominant biblical worldview.

All of this during the church age. How much more profound will the Kingdom age be. Much less the new Heavens and the new earth after that. Sometimes I wonder if God is not doing a work through us to rebuild and restore this world to God purpose and intentions.

I did construction work. People can draw pretty pictures but you have to make it work in the real world. That is why we had drafting machines and now we have computer programs. Although people would be surprised how much science began as art. Also they would be surprised how much science began as theology over 1,000 years ago.

Nachmanides was a physician and contributed to medical knowledge through his writings and practice. Maimonides was also a renowned physician and wrote extensively on medical topics. His medical works, such as "The Guide for the Perplexed" and "Medical Aphorisms," integrated medical knowledge with philosophical and religious insights.

• Da Vinci used precise measurements to represent the ideal human proportions, blending art and mathematic.

Leonardo da Vinci's work has had a lasting impact on both art and science, showcasing his genius in both fields.

People do not realize how much art and science and religion are connected and intertwined. The connections among art, science, and religion are profound and often overlooked. These disciplines are interwoven in ways that enrich our understanding of the world and our place within it.

People want to tear down the very science that keep us alive and healthy. If it were not for science most people would not be alive today. Without science at best our world population would be around one or two billion. Not the 8 billion people that we see alive today.

 

[stevevw]

I think the laws for producing life had to have been programmed from the very beginning. Even if we say that life came from chemical interactions and certain conditions the laws for that possibility had to have been there already. Thats just simple logic.

Most major body plans are found in the Cambrian explosion. So at least from here all life already had the program suites to produce body plans, eyes, wings ect.

Any function requires multiple and coordinated mechanisms happening at the same time. Eyes come with nervers and neurons, arms come with the muscles, tendons, blood cells, tissue and many oher functions to work.

We see this in development in the womb. Studies have shown that the genetic programs can be manipulated where eyes or wings can be produced on other parts of the body. So there is much plasticity going on within the existing programs.

The idea is when a creature adapts there is an interaction between their bodies and the environment which acts on them and leads to adaptations which are not random but geared towards certain forms. Its not purely a genetic to phenotype relation but also with tissues and cells thus making it a more multidimensional process. Which also includes connections with other creatures sharing in recipricle relations of change.

Life is designed to adapt and its not natural random and blind forces acting on creatures as passive actors that makes change but the creature itself which directs the evolution either through their own blue prints designed to adapt or their own intelligence and agency which is also designed to adapt.

 

[Diamond72]

I think the laws for producing life had to have been programmed from the very beginning.

Nothing has been added from the beginning. The beginning is the smallest unit of time that physics will allow. We know that there are 9,192,631,770 oscillations in a second. So from that perspective one oscillation is the smallest unit of time on our clocks and watches. When are atomic.

The problem is we can only see the effect. We can not see the laws or the cause.

Fine-Tuning of the Universe: Many scientists and philosophers argue that the universe appears to be finely tuned for life. The fundamental physical constants and laws of nature are such that, even slight variations could make life as we know it impossible. This has led to discussions about whether this fine-tuning is a result of chance, necessity, or design.