Do you agree with the traditional doctrine of original sin?

[Mark Corbett]

Original Sin

Do you agree with the traditional doctrine of original sin?

I mean, specifically, do you agree that:

1. God holds all people guilty for Adam’s sin AND

2. We inherit a sin nature from Adam

How could it be fair that Adam’s sin has such a big negative impact on us all? Was it right for God to make it like this?

I share a few thoughts in this video. I include an analogy based on something I saw while living in Indonesia that might help us understand this issue. Whether or not you watch the video, I would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[trophy33]

I mean, specifically, do you agree that:

1. God holds all people guilty for Adam’s sin AND

No. I do not think its even biblical.

2. We inherit a sin nature from Adam

It was the Jewish cultural thinking in the 1st century and it is reflected also in the Paul's epistles.

But technically, no.

1. We cannot base hamartiology only on one, literal view of the Bible (and the literal reading of Genesis) - because the most of Christians do not read the Genesis this way anymore, we must finally update our theology and come with some other explanation than this traditional one.

2. Its not even making much logical sense, both Adam and Eve, or even angels are depicted as sinful in the Bible, without a need to inherit that from somebody else.

I think our sinful nature has at least two sources:
1. Metaphysically - our limitations (we do not know everything, it leads to wrong decisions, we do not own everything, it leads to envy and desire etc)
2. Animal instincts in our bodies that are not compatible with the societal norms or higher moral values (aggression, "fight or flight", sexuality, territoriality...)

 

[Mark Corbett]

No. I do not think its even biblical.


It was the Jewish cultural thinking in the 1st century and it is reflected also in the Paul's epistles.

But technically, no.

1. We cannot base hamartiology only on one, literal view of the Bible (and the literal reading of Genesis) - because the most of Christians do not read the Genesis this way anymore, we must finally update our theology and come with some other explanation than this traditional one.

2. Its not even making much logical sense, both Adam and Eve, or even angels are depicted as sinful in the Bible, without a need to inherit that from somebody else.

I think our sinful nature has at least two sources:
1. Metaphysically - our limitations (we do not know everything, it leads to wrong decisions, we do not own everything, it leads to envy and desire etc)
2. Animal instincts in our bodies that are not compatible with the societal norms or higher moral values (aggression, "fight or flight", sexuality, territoriality...)

That's a thoughtful answer. I think that our animal instincts likely do play a big role in our propensity to sin.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Original Sin

Do you agree with the traditional doctrine of original sin?

I mean, specifically, do you agree that:

1. God holds all people guilty for Adam’s sin AND

2. We inherit a sin nature from Adam

How could it be fair that Adam’s sin has such a big negative impact on us all? Was it right for God to make it like this?

I share a few thoughts in this video. I include an analogy based on something I saw while living in Indonesia that might help us understand this issue. Whether or not you watch the video, I would like to hear your thoughts.

No. This is an Augustinian falsehood.
Blessings

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Original Sin

Do you agree with the traditional doctrine of original sin?

I mean, specifically, do you agree that:

1. God holds all people guilty for Adam’s sin AND

2. We inherit a sin nature from Adam

How could it be fair that Adam’s sin has such a big negative impact on us all? Was it right for God to make it like this?

I share a few thoughts in this video. I include an analogy based on something I saw while living in Indonesia that might help us understand this issue. Whether or not you watch the video, I would like to hear your thoughts.

I think this is a good proof.

Romans 5:12-14 KJV
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[KevinT]

Eve and Adam's rebellious actions in Eden had consequences. It is understood that our parents were the rulers of our world in the garden. But in Jesus's time, He named Satan as the ruler of this world (though not over Jesus Himself) -- thus we see that Eve and Adam had forfeited their authority as rulers. This is a status change, and this new state has rippled down generation after generation.

I mean, specifically, do you agree that:

1. God holds all people guilty for Adam’s sin AND

2. We inherit a sin nature from Adam

God upholds every law of physics. If I were to run with shoes untied, trip and fall, and scrape my knee -- that would be God in action. I don't think I would call it a "punishment", but I do suffer pain for failing to properly deal with God's gravity. So, likewise, if there there is a consequence from some action, we can say that God is "holding people guilty" for Adam's sin. Alternatively, we could also say that the natural consequences, the playing out of God's laws of physics (and biology, psychology etc etc), doesn't cause one to suffer under God's "wrath", but rather that we are simply living in an unfortunate "state" triggered by Eve and Adam.

Short answer for #1: It depends on what you mean by "holding guilty".

For #2, regarding a sinful nature, I think it is instructive to look at Cain. Why did Cain murder Abel? Would he have done so if Adam had not sinned? I wasn't there, but I suspect that just as Satan tempted Eve, the devil was even more aggressive and convincing to Cain. I can imagine the whispered thoughts of discontentment and resentment Satan suggested to Cain. And that would not have been allowed if our parents had kept the enemy out. Also, as generations have gone by, we have more and more genetic damage to our DNA. Babies are born with deformities that were never part of God's plan. And we, as parents, fail to raise our children properly through our own ignorance and sinfulness. It keeps propagating generation after generation -- all the while worsening. HOWEVER, I think Jesus is going to somehow reverse all this by making us a new creation. How? I don't know.

Short answer for #2: Our genetics and our environment and our generational situations makes more likely to sin. We have "inherited" this from Eve and Adam. But we have Jesus on our side to counter this.

Best wishes,
KT

 

[timf]

Because of Adam's sin we are all born selfish and ignorant. This sets us on a trajectory of individual sin that because of our flesh is inescapable. However, there is a point where those who are of the truth can respond to the gospel and receive the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Teofrastus]

Yes, I affirm the doctrine of original sin, which remains a vital theological concept deserving renewed attention in our era. Please comment on this article that I just uploaded: The Concept of Sin: Contemporary Relevance and Meaning.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I mean, specifically, do you agree that:

1. God holds all people guilty for Adam’s sin AND

2. We inherit a sin nature from Adam

1. Isn't true. Paul explains clearly that we are all planted in weakness, corruption and dishonor in a natural body that is doomed to fail by God no less, 1 Cor. 15:42-46. Had nothing to do with anything being Adam or Eve's fault. Blaming them is pointless

God Himself bound everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32

 

[Teofrastus]

1. Isn't true. Paul explains clearly that we are all planted in weakness, corruption and dishonor in a natural body that is doomed to fail by God no less, 1 Cor. 15:42-46. Had nothing to do with anything being Adam or Eve's fault. Blaming them is pointless

God Himself bound everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32

The fallen Adam and the risen Christ form a parallel narrative. While the first Adam introduced corruption into the world, the second Adam brought redemption. This reinforces the archetypal significance of Adam's story. It must be regarded as true.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

While the first Adam introduced corruption into the world, the second Adam brought redemption. This reinforces the archetypal significance of Adam's story. It must be regarded as true.

Not saying Adam's narrative isn't true but a couple basic observations:

Adam was God's son. So did God bear sinners as sons? Think about it. Luke 3:38

And there is the question of the commonly missed "other party" to sin, which is the devil who God said caused this issue with Adam and Eve in:

Genesis 3:14
And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this,

There is every reason to believe that Mark 4:15 happened to both Adam and Eve.

All have sin, Romans 3:9
Sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8
And of course God did bind everyone to disobedience, per Romans 11:32

 

[Teofrastus]

Not saying Adam's narrative isn't true but a couple basic observations:

Adam was God's son. So did God bear sinners as sons? Think about it. Luke 3:38

And there is the question of the commonly missed "other party" to sin, which is the devil who God said caused this issue with Adam and Eve in:

Genesis 3:14
And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this,

There is every reason to believe that Mark 4:15 happened to both Adam and Eve.

All have sin, Romans 3:9
Sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8
And of course God did bind everyone to disobedience, per Romans 11:32

Adam was not a sinner. He was created in innocence, was God's direct creation and possessed divine consciousness, walking in perfect harmony with his Creator. However, when faced with temptation, he succumbed. In contrast, when Christ was faced with temptation, he remained steadfast and overcame it.

During the era when Luke wrote his gospel, the title "son of God" was a figurative expression used to describe someone who was truly pious. In this sense, Adam was called a "son of God" in his original state of innocence. Interestingly, Jesus chose to identify himself as the "Son of Man," emphasizing his human nature.

Why was the serpent allowed in Eden, God's perfect garden? It seems that true perfection isn't the absence of all potential for evil, but rather the presence of authentic choice. Eden was created without sin, yet with the potential for it. Without freedom to choose, love would just be like a pre-programmed response, like a robot following commands. Real love and growth can only happen when we're free to make our own choices.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Adam was not a sinner. He was created in innocence, was God's direct creation and possessed divine consciousness, walking in perfect harmony with his Creator. However, when faced with temptation, he succumbed. In contrast, when Christ was faced with temptation, he remained steadfast and overcame it.

Kind of beside the point. IF Mark 4:15 happened to Adam then it was not just Adam present from Adam's beginning.

Adam is one thing. Internal temptations of the tempter is quite another matter by a different agent than Adam.

Had Adam not been subject to lawless thoughts God would have no need to lay the law on Adam (and the tempter), essentially "Do Not Eat." The fact that there was a law proves lawlessness as the law is for the lawless, 1 Tim. 1:9

This is why sins are not counted against people, per 2 Cor. 5:19 BUT they are counted against the devil and his own in those same folk i.e. all of us.

Why was the serpent allowed in Eden, God's perfect garden? It seems that true perfection isn't the absence of all potential for evil, but rather the presence of authentic choice. Eden was created without sin, yet with the potential for it. Without freedom to choose, love would just be like a pre-programmed response, like a robot following commands. Real love and growth can only happen when we're free to make our own choices.

Everything serves God's Purposes. Even evil and death based on the simple fact that He Alone is Greater than all things.

I am not a "freewill" advocate. No one can whistle past their own evil thoughts that defile us all. Mark 7:21-23

The reason we can not get by the fact of evil thoughts is that we all do have the very real presence of evil within, just as Jesus stated. And that evil is courtesy of our adversary. There is no freewilling past that opponent because the opponent is involved in the matters. It's never been a question of "just us" as individuals.

Just as Jesus looked Peter in the face and spoke to Satan. Just as Satan entered Judas. Just as Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh and temptation in his flesh ala the tempter, it is the same with every last one of us.

And God bound us all in this way for a very specific reason:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Teofrastus]

Kind of beside the point. IF Mark 4:15 happened to Adam then it was not just Adam present from Adam's beginning.

Adam is one thing. Internal temptations of the tempter is quite another matter by a different agent than Adam.

Had Adam not been subject to lawless thoughts God would have no need to lay the law on Adam (and the tempter), essentially "Do Not Eat." The fact that there was a law proves lawlessness as the law is for the lawless, 1 Tim. 1:9

This is why sins are not counted against people, per 2 Cor. 5:19 BUT they are counted against the devil and his own in those same folk i.e. all of us.


Everything serves God's Purposes. Even evil and death based on the simple fact that He Alone is Greater than all things.

I am not a "freewill" advocate. No one can whistle past their own evil thoughts that defile us all. Mark 7:21-23

The reason we can not get by the fact of evil thoughts is that we all do have the very real presence of evil within, just as Jesus stated. And that evil is courtesy of our adversary. There is no freewilling past that opponent because the opponent is involved in the matters. It's never been a question of "just us" as individuals.

Just as Jesus looked Peter in the face and spoke to Satan. Just as Satan entered Judas. Just as Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh and temptation in his flesh ala the tempter, it is the same with every last one of us.

And God bound us all in this way for a very specific reason:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Adam possessed genuine free will before the Fall, aligned with God's will. The potential for sin existed from Adam's creation precisely because he had free will. In our present state, we no longer have such authentic free will, and consequently, sin is not merely a possibility but an active force in human nature.

As Paul writes in Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned." While sin is imputed to all humanity, it cannot be meaningfully attributed to Satan, who embodies sin itself. Unlike Christ and Adam, Satan is not human but rather a demonic force. The concept of guilt cannot apply to a demonic power. The consequences of original sin affect humanity and Creation as a whole, but not the demons themselves.

Concerning Romans 11:32, "bound over" (συγκλείω in Greek) can also mean "concluded" or "shown to be"—suggesting God's diagnosis of the human condition rather than His causation of it. It's about God using even human rebellion to accomplish His purposes of grace. It reflects the mystery of how God's sovereign plan operates alongside genuine human choice. God knew the Fall would occur and incorporated it into His plan without directly causing it.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Adam possessed genuine free will before the Fall, aligned with God's will.

Stated Paul's descriptive of the state of Adam previously.

Paul in 1 Cor. 15:42-46 stated that Adam (and all of us likewise) are planted in weakness, corruption and dishonor in a natural body that is doomed to die. There is no indication that the state of Adam was any other way in his own beginning. God obviously had no intentions of leaving His son, Adam, stranded in a wet walking dust pile for all of eternity, having planned otherwise in Christ.

There is also not one single person on earth other than God Himself in the flesh that used their supposed freewill (totally having to ignore the fact of evil present within us all that is never "obedient") to make themselves not have evil present within or not have evil thoughts that defile us all. The law was always meant to shut up every mouth and make us all guilty, Romans 3:19. This is an exceptionally solid indictment and conclusion that zero people will avoid.

The very evil present within us misleads us to think we have some "good contributions" to provide to God in order to justify ourselves for our entrance into heaven. However other side of the coin is more likely, that we will all contribute to the ultimate judgment against all evils that have transpired in us.

Satan is not human but rather a demonic force. The concept of guilt cannot apply to a demonic power.

I have no idea where you pulled that one from.

Satan is assuredly guilty and condemned, period, and is so "in mankind." It's the very basis of his adverse judgment at his finale. Jesus showed us the presence of Satan and his own within mankind on nearly every page of the Gospels.

It is a simple mistake to not bring Satan into the pictures of mankind with regards to all sin. Satan has simply masked himself in those who do so so that the light of the Gospel does not shine upon him, to reveal him.

God knew the Fall would occur and incorporated it into His plan without directly causing it.

The above simply begs the question of omission or commission, either of which implicates God regardless.

The need to insulate God from creating evil isn't necessary IF He's Greater. He needs no excuses from anyone.

And there is ample scriptural evidence that God created all things including the power of evil. To say otherwise brings us into polytheism of multiple creators or factors that "create themselves" other than God. I don't see the logic in carving God out of anything in creation IF He IS Truly The Victor, and this will be amply demonstrated to all at the culmination of this current age and exercise

 

[Teofrastus]

Stated Paul's descriptive of the state of Adam previously.

Paul in 1 Cor. 15:42-46 stated that Adam (and all of us likewise) are planted in weakness, corruption and dishonor in a natural body that is doomed to die. There is no indication that the state of Adam was any other way in his own beginning. God obviously had no intentions of leaving His son, Adam, stranded in a wet walking dust pile for all of eternity, having planned otherwise in Christ.

There is also not one single person on earth other than God Himself in the flesh that used their supposed freewill (totally having to ignore the fact of evil present within us all that is never "obedient") to make themselves not have evil present within or not have evil thoughts that defile us all. The law was always meant to shut up every mouth and make us all guilty, Romans 3:19. This is an exceptionally solid indictment and conclusion that zero people will avoid.

The very evil present within us misleads us to think we have some "good contributions" to provide to God in order to justify ourselves for our entrance into heaven. However other side of the coin is more likely, that we will all contribute to the ultimate judgment against all evils that have transpired in us.

I have no idea where you pulled that one from.

Satan is assuredly guilty and condemned, period, and is so "in mankind." It's the very basis of his adverse judgment at his finale. Jesus showed us the presence of Satan and his own within mankind on nearly every page of the Gospels.

It is a simple mistake to not bring Satan into the pictures of mankind with regards to all sin. Satan has simply masked himself in those who do so so that the light of the Gospel does not shine upon him, to reveal him.


The above simply begs the question of omission or commission, either of which implicates God regardless.

The need to insulate God from creating evil isn't necessary IF He's Greater. He needs no excuses from anyone.

And there is ample scriptural evidence that God created all things including the power of evil. To say otherwise brings us into polytheism of multiple creators or factors that "create themselves" other than God. I don't see the logic in carving God out of anything in creation IF He IS Truly The Victor, and this will be amply demonstrated to all at the culmination of this current age and exercise

Prior to the Fall, the human body was not destined for death. Augustine teaches that Adam and Eve possessed the ability not to sin (posse non peccare). Their bodies were immune to death and decay, and they knew no physical suffering. They enjoyed direct, unimpeded knowledge of God, perfect harmony between reason and will, clear understanding without error, and their will was naturally oriented towards good. Augustine develops these themes in several works, including De Civitate Dei (City of God) and De Genesi ad litteram (On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis).

It is true that traditional Christian theology has consistently understood Satan as a personal being and moral agent capable of choice, and therefore as one who can bear responsibility for sin and guilt. But modern theological perspectives often view Satan as a power that God ultimately subjugates to serve His purposes—a view also found in Luther's writings. This understanding is reflected in the Book of Job, where Satan functions as an agent carrying out difficult tasks within God's sovereign plan, in which case he cannot be blamed.

No, God did not create the power of evil. Evil lacks metaphysical being and therefore was not created by God; rather, evil exists as the absence of good (privatio boni). As Augustine states: "For evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name 'evil'" (De Civ. xi:9). Similarly, God did not create darkness or chaos, since darkness is merely the absence of light and chaos the relative lack of order. Scripture confirms this by showing that God creates positive forms from nothingness, not absences. Augustine elaborates: "For Scripture did not say that God made the darkness. God made the forms, not privations that pertain to that nothing out of which all things were made by the divine artist" (De Genesi, 5. 25).

 

[Lukaris]

Original Sin

Do you agree with the traditional doctrine of original sin?

I mean, specifically, do you agree that:

1. God holds all people guilty for Adam’s sin AND

2. We inherit a sin nature from Adam

How could it be fair that Adam’s sin has such a big negative impact on us all? Was it right for God to make it like this?

I share a few thoughts in this video. I include an analogy based on something I saw while living in Indonesia that might help us understand this issue. Whether or not you watch the video, I would like to hear your thoughts.

I believe number 2 is what we are all subject to. Cain chose to kill Abel & then depravity further affected our fallen state.

1 John 3:10-12

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Prior to the Fall, the human body was not destined for death

Don't know where you picked up that notion.

Augustine teaches that Adam and Eve possessed the ability not to sin

Augustine obviously was not factoring in the reality of Mark 4:15 and the role of the devil in their sin. It's commonly overlooked.

Their bodies were immune to death and decay, and they knew no physical suffering

I would never term being planted in weakness, dishonor and corruption doomed to failure in natural bodies as the above. Such conclusions are the exact opposite of what Paul advised us in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. Adam and Eve are easy blame and accusation fodder, even though sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19. It's much more problematic to see Satan entering their hearts to steal and deceive "because" we all suffer a similar form of blindness, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8 and many other citings similar

modern theological perspectives often view Satan as a power that God ultimately subjugates to serve His purposes

And a view that I accept. Satan was made to sin in people and kill our bodies, exactly as Paul proposes in Romans 11:32 and other citings

No, God did not create the power of evil

Unfortunately that places some powers not created by God when scriptures state God created all powers, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11. And yes, evil is a power: Hab. 2:9

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Hard to deny the obvious

 

[Teofrastus]

Don't know where you picked up that notion.

Augustine obviously was not factoring in the reality of Mark 4:15 and the role of the devil in their sin. It's commonly overlooked.

I would never term being planted in weakness, dishonor and corruption doomed to failure in natural bodies as the above. Such conclusions are the exact opposite of what Paul advised us in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. Adam and Eve are easy blame and accusation fodder, even though sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19. It's much more problematic to see Satan entering their hearts to steal and deceive "because" we all suffer a similar form of blindness, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8 and many other citings similar


And a view that I accept. Satan was made to sin in people and kill our bodies, exactly as Paul proposes in Romans 11:32 and other citings

Unfortunately that places some powers not created by God when scriptures state God created all powers, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11. And yes, evil is a power: Hab. 2:9

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Hard to deny the obvious

Evil, as the relative absence of good, functions like a pothole—a dangerous hole in the road for the traffic. However, conceptualizing the devil as God's equal and opposite is a fundamentally polytheistic or Manichaean idea. The portrayal of the devil as God's powerful antagonist doesn't align with core Christian theology. The frequent depiction of the devil and witches during the Middle Ages served to personify evil, making it a tangible concept that people could grapple with. They provided a symbolic language for discussing spiritual and moral struggles, not a literal depiction of dualistic cosmology.

That evil has no independent metaphysical existence doesn't negate its impact in the world. Just as a pothole, though a lack of asphalt, presents a real danger, evil exists as a privation or corruption of good. This concept, as articulated by Proclus, describes evil as parasitic, drawing its existence and power from the good it corrupts. Evil cannot exist independently; it needs a foundation of good to exploit and distort.

This parasitic nature of evil is a key concept in understanding its dynamics. It doesn't create; it distorts and perverts what already exists. This helps explain why evil often appears so powerful: it leverages the energy and potential inherent in good, twisting it to destructive ends.

The idea of evil as a parasite also offers a framework for understanding how to combat it. Rather than confronting evil as an independent force, the focus should be on cultivating and strengthening good. By nurturing virtues, promoting justice, and fostering compassion, we create an environment less susceptible to the corrupting influence of evil. Just as a healthy body is better equipped to resist disease, a society grounded in strong moral principles is more resilient to the destructive effects of evil.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Evil, as the relative absence of good

Evil already shown as a power in scripture deployed by God no less, not a void created by lack of something else.

Darkness is just as real as light, and not caused by the lack of light as any casual glance into the night sky can show. Is night not real because the sun isn't up? I think we should turn out the lights on darkness and evil not being created by God.

However, conceptualizing the devil as God's equal and opposite is a fundamentally polytheistic or Manichaean idea

I've never made such a claim so we can move past that one as well.

That evil has no independent metaphysical existence doesn't negate its impact in the world

Evil is personified in the form of the adversary, the devil, Satan who wields that very power. An adversary who steals, deceives, invokes evil lawless thoughts in people, can speak from a person's mouth, act lawlessly, and eventually kills.

I'd suggest evil and the devil are quite intimately linked. Yet still subject to God as a lesser state and stature than God, as all of creation is in fact a lesser state or stature to some degree or another.

The same can be said with anything in creation. Even our imaginations, wrongs and ignorance serve His Purposes, somehow. Not sure how in many cases but it does.

Your attempt essentially tries to say evil has no existence however it is real and has real consequences. Saying it only exists because of a lack of good is like saying we exist because of a lack of God. IF God is good and Omnipresent there is no lack of good. Perhaps a sidebar.

We do not exist because of a lack or void of God.

This parasitic nature of evil is a key concept in understanding its dynamics. It doesn't create; it distorts and perverts what already exists. This helps explain why evil often appears so powerful: it leverages the energy and potential inherent in good, twisting it to destructive ends.

The idea of evil as a parasite also offers a framework for understanding how to combat it. Rather than confronting evil as an independent force, the focus should be on cultivating and strengthening good. By nurturing virtues, promoting justice, and fostering compassion, we create an environment less susceptible to the corrupting influence of evil. Just as a healthy body is better equipped to resist disease, a society grounded in strong moral principles is more resilient to the destructive effects of evil.

I think we've managed to say evil is quite real and we can agree on that.

The point will stand that God has in fact bound everyone to disobedience in order to demonstrate His Mercy in Christ. And IF that is the endgame then God is completely justified in doing so.

Just as hiding Himself causes Hope for Him to spring up in us, He again remains completely justified and uses that obfuscation to create HOPE.

There are many adverse situations in life that causes us to to have compassion and love. Mercy even. And in all these things God has His Hand ever in play.

I can not logically rule God out of anything in His creation. It doesn't make sense to do so, as that would be no God or a lesser God.

IF we're going to believe in God it may as well be A Divine Superior above all things, wouldn't you say?