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Science (observations in nature) - supports creation not evolution. So does the Bible

Diamond72

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what does it mean for God to create something?
God uses the laws of physics to create. God showed me that the universe is expanding long before I learned that from Science. Most major denominations you have to have a degree in science first then you can go on to get a degree in theology.
 
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Diamond72

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Science confirms that there is not one observation of dust,rocks,gas,sun-light producing a horse, or rabbit, or amoeba, or bacteria over time.
The genetic information that determines the characteristics of an organism is stored in its DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid). DNA contains the instructions for the development, growth, and function of all living organisms, including horses, rabbits, amoebas, and bacteria.

Every living organism, including humans, carries DNA that contains a record of the evolutionary history of life. As species evolve, their DNA accumulates mutations that give rise to new genetic variations. Humans share DNA with other primates and other organisms, indicating a shared ancestry with all life on Earth. Our DNA carries a record of our evolutionary history and the genetic variation that has contributed to the development of our species.
 
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BobRyan

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The genetic information that determines the characteristics of an organism is stored in its DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid). DNA contains the instructions for the development, growth, and function of all living organisms, including horses, rabbits, amoebas, and bacteria.
True -- but rocks have never been observed to produce a living organism, or DNA
Every living organism, including humans, carries DNA that contains a record of the evolutionary history of life.
Interesting suggestion - where do you get the idea that DNA is record of history of anything?
As species evolve, their DNA accumulates mutations
Defects in DNA are certainly common and can be measured across lines of descent. But that does not give a history of life or evolution, it gives a partial record of the defects/mutations since many mutations are not viable.
Humans share DNA with other primates and other organisms
No we don't. We don't share "eyes" with fish just because we both have eyes and we don't share our mouth with horses just because we both have mouths.
, indicating a shared ancestry
Nope -- we did not come from horses or fish - read Genesis 1 and 2 to see where we came from.
 
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BobRyan

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God uses the laws of physics to create.
God invented the biosphere of Earth from scratch - read Genesis 1 and 2.
God invented physics , He is not constrained by it.
God showed me that the universe is expanding long before I learned that from Science.
God said in the OT that He is unfolding/expanding the universe "as a curtain" expands. Which is a pretty good description of current observations.
Most major denominations you have to have a degree in science first then you can go on to get a degree in theology.
Name those major denominations that do not allow degrees in theology to someone who does not first have a Bachelor of Science degree.

Then I will name a few that do no such thing
 
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Diamond72

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Name those major denominations that do not allow degrees in theology to someone who does not first have a Bachelor of Science degree.
In the United States, the requirements for becoming a Methodist pastor may vary depending on the specific denomination or conference. However, generally speaking, a candidate for ordained ministry in the United Methodist Church is required to have a bachelor's degree from an accredited institution and complete a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) degree or its equivalent at an accredited seminary or divinity school.

The M.Div. degree is typically a three-year graduate program that provides training in theology, biblical studies, church history, preaching, pastoral care, and other aspects of ministry. In addition to completing a degree program, candidates for ordained ministry in the United Methodist Church are also required to undergo a period of supervised ministry, known as "clinical pastoral education," and pass an examination.

After completing these requirements, candidates for ordained ministry are typically ordained as deacons and then, after several years of experience and additional education, may be ordained as elders. The process for becoming a Methodist pastor may involve additional requirements depending on the conference or denomination, so it's important to check with the specific organization for more information.

This is a LOT different than a 2 year degree from moody in Chicago.

Moody Bible Institute in Chicago offers a variety of two-year degree programs in the areas of biblical studies, ministry, and theology. The specific requirements and coursework for each program may vary slightly, but generally, a two-year degree from Moody Bible Institute involves:
  1. General Education Courses: Like any other college program, a two-year degree from Moody Bible Institute includes general education courses such as English composition, mathematics, natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities. These courses are designed to provide students with a broad base of knowledge and skills that can be applied to various fields of study.
  2. Bible and Theology Courses: A significant portion of the coursework in a two-year degree program at Moody Bible Institute focuses on biblical studies, theology, and Christian ministry. This may include courses on the Old and New Testaments, Christian doctrine, church history, and practical ministry skills.
  3. Ministry Training: Many of the two-year degree programs at Moody Bible Institute include practical ministry training, such as hands-on experience in a ministry setting, leadership development, and mentoring from experienced ministry professionals.
  4. Electives: Depending on the program, students may also have the opportunity to take elective courses in areas such as counseling, youth ministry, evangelism, or missions.
Overall, a two-year degree from Moody Bible Institute is designed to provide students with a solid foundation in biblical studies and Christian ministry, and prepare them for further study or a career in Christian ministry.


Regenerate response
 
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Diamond72

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True -- but rocks have never been observed to produce a living organism, or DNA
Overall, the main difference between a rock and fertile soil is the ability of the soil to provide a supportive environment for plant growth, while a rock does not have this capability.
where do you get the idea that DNA is record of history of anything?
DNA is the molecule that carries the genetic information that is passed from one generation to the next. This means that changes or variations in the DNA sequence can be inherited by offspring, providing a mechanism for evolution and the diversification of species over time.
 
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BobRyan

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We are primates and mammals. So we would be more closely related to primates and mammals.
We are more similar to them -- but are not descended from lower life forms as Genesis 1` and 2 point out.
 
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BobRyan

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Overall, the main difference between a rock and fertile soil is the ability of the soil to provide a supportive environment for plant growth, while a rock does not have this capability.
neither one will produce a rabbit or a horse. That too is observable science.
DNA is the molecule that carries the genetic information that is passed from one generation to the next. This means that changes or variations in the DNA sequence can be inherited by offspring
defects can occur no doubt - mutations delete information over time... certainly.
, providing a mechanism for evolution and the diversification of species over time.
recombination and loss of information via mutation, defects etc is observable.

Poodle has lost the ability to produce a wolf. But the wolf can always be manipulated in a sequence to eventually come up with a poodle.
 
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BobRyan

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Most major denominations you have to have a degree in science first then you can go on to get a degree in theology.
Name those major denominations that do not allow degrees in theology to someone who does not first have a Bachelor of Science degree.

Then I will name a few that do no such thing

In the United States, the requirements for becoming a Methodist pastor may vary depending on the specific denomination or conference. However, generally speaking, a candidate for ordained ministry in the United Methodist Church is required to have a bachelor's degree from an accredited institution and complete a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) degree
Neither of which is necessarily a degree in science.
The M.Div. degree is typically a three-year graduate program that provides training in theology, biblical studies, church history, preaching, pastoral care, and other aspects of ministry.
My objection was to your statement that they had to have a degree in science to be a theologian. Your post just shows them having theology related degrees
 
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FaithT

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God uses the laws of physics to create. God showed me that the universe is expanding long before I learned that from Science. Most major denominations you have to have a degree in science first then you can go on to get a degree in theology.
Which major denominations are those?
 
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DennisF

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I don't know what BobRyan means, but the concept that God created everything means everything. That includes spacetime itself and everything in it. If you mean how, I find it interesting that the account of creating Adam and Eve is very specific. That is really the problem between evolution and the bible.

What bothers me about evolution is that, by it's nature, it's based only on extrapolation. No one has witnessed one species evolve into another because human lifespan is not that long. We can witness adaptation and even mutation, but that's a long way from, say, observing a viable change in the number of chromosomes that is passed along to the next generation. Everything we see seems to increase the odds of evolution, and that's before we get to abiogenesis.

This is where such discussions tend to split to between viruses and random chance over several billion years. As an OEC, I have no problem with a universe and earth several billion years old. The problem with viruses is their ability to mix and match code, which means it's something very different from other life, and there's some debate whether viruses are alive at all. The problem with the random chance is that it assumes, by the existence of life, that the odds of abiogenesis and evolution are surmountable without producing any estimates on what the actual odds may be. There's questions on what the factors may be and the nuts and bolts of how it works and how abiogenesis could happen, so even the odds themselves are in question. It's essentially hand-waving the problem by saying "Well, we're here, aren't we?"
You raised an interesting point: "the concept that God created everything means everything. That includes spacetime itself and everything in it." If you are taking this from Genesis1:1, it actually says that the elohim (gods - Hebrew male plural) created (bara) the skies (shamayim) and land (eretz). The word of interest is shamayim, which can also mean whatever one sees looking into the skies, including at night. The question I raise is: What is the scope of Gen. 1:1? In recent times, it has been assumed that it includes the modern cosmological model of the universe, but that is not what Gen. 1:1 says. I have been thinking about this. The Gen. 1 account includes sun, moon and "stars". Stars (kowkob in Hebrew) are any bright points of light in the sky and include not only the visible stars but also planets, asteroids, etc. that we make a distinction about. So, what I am raising is the question of the scope of creation. It might be that the creation of what we call the universe has yet to be revealed to us, that the creation account has not yet been completed.
 
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The Barbarian

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True -- but rocks have never been observed to produce a living organism, or DNA
God says the earth brought forth living things as He intended. I'll go with His opinion.

Interesting suggestion - where do you get the idea that DNA is record of history of anything?
Genetics. We can, for example, trace the history of families, individuals, and even national groups thereby. And we know it works, because we can test it on organisms of known descent.

defects can occur no doubt - mutations delete information over time... certainly.
Because you have no idea of what "information" is, you got it completely backwards. Every new mutation in a population increases information in it. Would you like to see the numbers for a simple case?

recombination and loss of information via mutation, defects etc is observable.
Recombination might or might not be an increase in information. Again, you don't have any idea of what "information" means, so you're just making it up as you go along.

Poodle has lost the ability to produce a wolf. But the wolf can always be manipulated in a sequence to eventually come up with a poodle.
No, that's not going to happen. You see, both wolves and dogs evolved from a canid ancestor that was neither a dog nor a modern wolf. That ancestor is gone and many of its genes are certainly gone forever.

Although researchers have successfully determined the time, location and ancestry of nearly every other domesticated species, from sheep to cattle to chickens to guinea pigs, they continue to debate these questions for our best friend, Canis familiaris. Scientists also know why humans developed these other domesticated animals—to have food close at hand—but they do not know what inspired us to allow a large, wild carnivore into the family homestead. Yet dogs were the first domesticated species, a status that makes the mystery of their origin that much more perplexing.

As inscrutable as the mystery is, scientists are piecing it together. In the past few years they have made several breakthroughs. They can now say with confidence that contrary to received wisdom, dogs are not descended from the gray wolf species that persists today across much of the Northern Hemisphere, from Alaska to Siberia to Saudi Arabia, but from an unknown and extinct wolf. They are also certain that this domestication event took place while humans were still hunter-gatherers and not after they became agriculturalists, as some investigators had proposed.

At what time and in what location wolves became dogs and whether it was only a one-time event are questions that a large research team, composed of once competing scientists, has just started to tackle. The researchers are visiting museums, universities and other institutions around the world to study collections of canine fossils and bones, and they are readying genetic samples from ancient and modern dogs and wolves for the most comprehensive comparison to date. When they are finished, they will be very close to knowing when and where—if not exactly how—wolves first began down the path toward becoming our trusted companions. Answers to these questions will complement the growing body of evidence for how humans and dogs influenced one another after that relationship was first forged.


Notice that the history contained in canid DNA is what will tell us about the origins of dogs and how they evolved to what they are today.
 
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DennisF

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God says the earth brought forth living things as He intended. I'll go with His opinion.


Genetics. We can, for example, trace the history of families, individuals, and even national groups thereby. And we know it works, because we can test it on organisms of known descent.


Because you have no idea of what "information" is, you got it completely backwards. Every new mutation in a population increases information in it. Would you like to see the numbers for a simple case?


Recombination might or might not be an increase in information. Again, you don't have any idea of what "information" means, so you're just making it up as you go along.


No, that's not going to happen. You see, both wolves and dogs evolved from a canid ancestor that was neither a dog nor a modern wolf. That ancestor is gone and many of its genes are certainly gone forever.

Although researchers have successfully determined the time, location and ancestry of nearly every other domesticated species, from sheep to cattle to chickens to guinea pigs, they continue to debate these questions for our best friend, Canis familiaris. Scientists also know why humans developed these other domesticated animals—to have food close at hand—but they do not know what inspired us to allow a large, wild carnivore into the family homestead. Yet dogs were the first domesticated species, a status that makes the mystery of their origin that much more perplexing.

As inscrutable as the mystery is, scientists are piecing it together. In the past few years they have made several breakthroughs. They can now say with confidence that contrary to received wisdom, dogs are not descended from the gray wolf species that persists today across much of the Northern Hemisphere, from Alaska to Siberia to Saudi Arabia, but from an unknown and extinct wolf. They are also certain that this domestication event took place while humans were still hunter-gatherers and not after they became agriculturalists, as some investigators had proposed.

At what time and in what location wolves became dogs and whether it was only a one-time event are questions that a large research team, composed of once competing scientists, has just started to tackle. The researchers are visiting museums, universities and other institutions around the world to study collections of canine fossils and bones, and they are readying genetic samples from ancient and modern dogs and wolves for the most comprehensive comparison to date. When they are finished, they will be very close to knowing when and where—if not exactly how—wolves first began down the path toward becoming our trusted companions. Answers to these questions will complement the growing body of evidence for how humans and dogs influenced one another after that relationship was first forged.


Notice that the history contained in canid DNA is what will tell us about the origins of dogs and how they evolved to what they are today.
While I agree with the comments of the Barbed Aryan, I would add about genetic ancestry tracing that it is a science in its infancy and is not clear-cut. There are errors or at least a low signal-to-noise ratio when taken back too far. We can know this because we have enough ancient history to know of the migration of people groups and they do not always match well (if at all) the haplotype distance indicators of genetic tracing. Until the genetic and archaeological histories converge, I will hold the genetic history more in doubt because of its brief history and ambiguities.
 
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The Barbarian

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While I agree with the comments of the Barbed Aryan, I would add about genetic ancestry tracing that it is a science in its infancy and is not clear-cut. There are errors or at least a low signal-to-noise ratio when taken back too far. We can know this because we have enough ancient history to know of the migration of people groups and they do not always match well (if at all) the haplotype distance indicators of genetic tracing. Until the genetic and archaeological histories converge, I will hold the genetic history more in doubt because of its brief history and ambiguities.
Turns out, genes and culture aren't always the same things...
 
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sfs

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While I agree with the comments of the Barbed Aryan, I would add about genetic ancestry tracing that it is a science in its infancy and is not clear-cut. There are errors or at least a low signal-to-noise ratio when taken back too far. We can know this because we have enough ancient history to know of the migration of people groups and they do not always match well (if at all) the haplotype distance indicators of genetic tracing.
I think you have it backwards. Genetic ancestry is on more solid ground that our knowledge of the migration of ancient peoples, at least for the last 20,000 years or so. Ancient DNA has revealed major population movements into and within Europe that we know little or nothing about from archeology.
 
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The Barbarian

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I think you have it backwards. Genetic ancestry is on more solid ground that our knowledge of the migration of ancient peoples, at least for the last 20,000 years or so. Ancient DNA has revealed major population movements into and within Europe that we know little or nothing about from archeology.
Thanks for a more informed contribution than mine.
 
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Diamond72

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You raised an interesting point: "the concept that God created everything means everything.
ALL is a very powerful word in the Hebrew. People water it down when they use the word thing.
Notice that the history contained in canid DNA is what will tell us about the origins of dogs and how they evolved to what they are today.
In his book: "Once a Wolf" Bryan Sykes says that his "narrative" is "embellished with a generous helping of my own imagination",
 
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Diamond72

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Turns out, genes and culture aren't always the same things...
The Vikings were given Normandy if they converted to Christianity. They spread out from there when they were given land for fighting in the crusades'. Back then if you wanted farm land you had to fight for it.

The Vikings were expelled from Norway and Iceland due to various factors like overpopulation and political strife. As they moved south, they raided many churches and monasteries along the west coast, including places like Iona and Lindisfarne. These raids were part of their broader pattern of seeking wealth and new lands.

The Vikings acquired land in Normandy through the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte in 9111. This treaty was signed between the Viking leader Rollo and the Frankish king Charles the Simple1. In exchange for Rollo's pledge to protect the Frankish kingdom from other Viking raiders, he was granted land in what is now Normandy. This agreement allowed the Vikings to settle and integrate into the region, eventually becoming known as the Normans.
 
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