Science (observations in nature) - supports creation not evolution. So does the Bible

YahuahSaves

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What he wants to say is "the eternal is within all" but he has to compromise and share it with a more biblical familiar language to appeal to a wider audience (which is a transactional choice not philosophical) but be assured his views of God are not biblical.
I know he's new age. I watched another video interview where he's gathered more findings and you can tell it scared him that the biblical God was the definitive answer so he found other languages (Aramaic and Sanskrit) had the same results and it seemed to set in his mind the biblical God wasn't the answer, but ancient Hebrew and Aramaic are closely linked and Sanskrit is believed to be linked to ancient Hebrew speaking culture. Paul went to Asia to share the Gospel so this makes more sense to me than 3 different Gods written in our DNA.
 
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DamianWarS

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How is asking you your position on Jesus against the CF rules? Your tagline name does not say Jesus Christ, but it's the name given to him in the qur'an. So I guess that answers my question since you've avoided the question again. This makes a lot of sense why you aren't interested in actually watching the interview with the researcher. In conclusion, your opinion is invalid and I'm going to ignore it. :oldthumbsup:
in order to participate in a Christian-only part of CF those questions can only be answered one way. read the statement of faith in CF, those are my answers. to question someone on this is tantamount to saying they are not a Christian (according to the statement of faith of CF) which is against the rules.
 
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YahuahSaves

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in order to participate in a Christian-only part of CF those questions can only be answered one way. read the statement of faith in CF, those are my answers. to question someone on this is tantamount to saying they are not a Christian (according to the statement of faith of CF) which is against the rules.
But you didn't answer the question, so there's no point reading the statement of faith, because I won't know if your view of Jesus aligns with it or not. Your tag line reads: "Follower of Isa Al Masih" which is the name given to Jesus Christ in the qu'ran
 
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DamianWarS

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I know he's new age. I watched another video interview where he's gathered more findings and you can tell it scared him that the biblical God was the definitive answer so he found other languages (Aramaic and Sanskrit) had the same results and it seemed to set in his mind the biblical God wasn't the answer, but ancient Hebrew and Aramaic are closely linked and Sanskrit is believed to be linked to ancient Hebrew speaking culture. Paul went to Asia to share the Gospel so this makes more sense to me than 3 different Gods written in our DNA.
you seem to be drinking his cool aid. Paul went to Asia but he had no impact on the languages being spoken nor was he motivated to change languages, it's in the language where this code is alleged that long predate Paul's arrival.

All Semitic languages have the same root so Aramaic, Arabic, Hebrew, etc... are going to share this code and it will be more like a mirror as they are all similar and more like cousins than distant relatives. The Roman alphabet can be traced back to phonetician (paleo-Hebrew) or further back to proto-Canaanite and so can Sanskrit. if you track their roots the Greek variant (English, Latin, European alphabets) shoots off of phonetician whereas Sanskrit (Brahma, Ngari) is from a different shoot also from phonetician and so the two are isolated from each other but still share a common root which is phonetician.

This gematria code could be superimposed over all these languages as characters can be traced back to their corresponding Phoenician characters. For example, A and B in English is from the Greek Alpha (Α α), and Beta (Β β) which is from the Phoenician (Paleo-Hebrew) Aleph and Bet (which is why we call it the Alpha-bet) and pictographs of an Ox and Tent. In Sanskirt these same characters have turned into अ (A) and ब (B) rooted in the same Phoenician characters. so whatever "code" is for the Hebrew Aleph is the same for the English A or for the Sanskrit अ.

This is interesting but it's been long established so nothing new is contributed by Braden. Also, his code is fundamentally flawed as YHVG is not YHVH/YHVH and his translation is unsubstantiated. No doubt a mishmash of all these languages he spent 12 years figuring out by grabbing what he wants and leaving what he doesn't all to support this new-age/relativism "all is one" philosophy that views not just all life as one but all languages and all truth are one too so it doesn't matter where he grabs it from as it ultimately is the same truth. These are not responsible foundations from which to base ideas from and are fundamentally heretical to the Christian faith. I will counter his views with a Christian response that God is not his creation, so God is not us and we are not God (and that applies to all animate/inanimate objects as well)

This is the problem with bible code... it's often is based on stuff inconsistent with Christianity. The culture is not truth-seeking it is driven by discovering secrets and mysticism of how to unlock more of our potential, in this case, it seems founded in new-age beliefs. As you have questioned me regarding my faith in Christ there may be sufficient cause to now question yours and how it aligns with new-age thinking. But since we are in a Christian-only place of CF I will assume you adhere to CFs statement of faith so implicitly all engagement in this part of CF inherits that context which I've applied to your responses (and that's good enough for me)
 
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DamianWarS

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But you didn't answer the question, so there's no point reading the statement of faith, because I won't know if your view of Jesus aligns with it or not. Your tag line reads: "Follower of Isa Al Masih" which is the name given to Jesus Christ in the qu'ran
are you suggesting I subscribe to a Quranic view of Jesus? Do you think the Quran aligns with the statement of Faith in CF? (this is the violation part of CF). it may surprise you to know that 1. the Quran/Muslims don't command these terms and 2. more than Arabic use the term Isa Al Masih. I speak a language (not Arabic) and read a Bible (not the Quran) and belong to a mainstream Christian community of believers that uses Isa Al Masih and so I have an identity with Christ in that language using those words. I can assure you I hit the Christian mark that CF requires to participate in threads like these. I have had this tagline on my name for probably over 10 years and CF has never challenged me on its use.
 
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Aaron112

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To many rational minds this idea of the creator having more capability and intelligence than the thing created - makes sense and fits what we observe in real life.
It seems that most minds, whether rational or not rational, are totally closed to the idea of The Creator Creating Everything.
 
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BobRyan

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It seems that most minds, whether rational or not rational, are totally closed to the idea of The Creator Creating Everything.
Or at least a lot of minds are.

Of course all agree that all except Noah and his family - were terminated in the flood - in Genesis 7. So "all" is not often a group that 100% correct on what is going to happen in nature when God commands it.
 
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BobRyan

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Sorry, I'm not interested in watching the video, is it something you can unpack in a post instead? YHWH appears in the Gen 2 creation account but not in the Gen 1 creation account. The Gen 1 creation account uses "Elohim" and the Gen 2 creation account uses "YHWH Elohim" This is one of the reasons why the Gen 1 creation account has a P source (priestly) and Gen 2 creation account as a J source (Yahwist). But I'm not sure what you mean when you say "God does"
Exodus 20 uses YHWH for the creation even in vs 8-22 pointing to Gen 2:1-3 statement on SEVEN days. So "inserting" a "NOT YHWH" idea into the seven day creation week fails right out of the gate.
 
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BobRyan

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Day 1 there is light yet no physical luminaries
Just no physical sun and moon in our solar system.
(which appears on day 4) so is the light physical?
Yes - because that is how Moses' readers would have accepted the text and we today know that light in the universe comes from more places other than our own Sun and moon.
 
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BobRyan

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YHWH does not appear in the Gen 1 creation account.

But the word does show up in the literal 7 day summation of creation in legal code in Ex 20:8-11 and Gen 2.

Your comment while true technically is left as a distinction without a difference.
 
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BobRyan

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So I'm spinning that logic back at the OP as the creative forces seen in Gen 1 have expliclty ceased so if the OP accepts this as a biblical model then why would the OP view a ceased evolution model as unbiblical?

The evolution doctrine on origins is unbiblical as a competing doctrine on origins to the Bible and it does not matter if that storytelling about evolution then claims "well nobody can see this process in our scientific observations in nature today -- because it stopped - so it is hidden from you... just trust us" -- it would still be a competing/contradicting doctrine on origins from that we find in the Bible.

I think this point is very obvious.
 
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Cis.jd

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I don't know what BobRyan means, but the concept that God created everything means everything. That includes spacetime itself and everything in it. If you mean how, I find it interesting that the account of creating Adam and Eve is very specific. That is really the problem between evolution and the bible.

What bothers me about evolution is that, by it's nature, it's based only on extrapolation. No one has witnessed one species evolve into another because human lifespan is not that long. We can witness adaptation and even mutation, but that's a long way from, say, observing a viable change in the number of chromosomes that is passed along to the next generation. Everything we see seems to increase the odds of evolution, and that's before we get to abiogenesis.

This is where such discussions tend to split to between viruses and random chance over several billion years. As an OEC, I have no problem with a universe and earth several billion years old. The problem with viruses is their ability to mix and match code, which means it's something very different from other life, and there's some debate whether viruses are alive at all. The problem with the random chance is that it assumes, by the existence of life, that the odds of abiogenesis and evolution are surmountable without producing any estimates on what the actual odds may be. There's questions on what the factors may be and the nuts and bolts of how it works and how abiogenesis could happen, so even the odds themselves are in question. It's essentially hand-waving the problem by saying "Well, we're here, aren't we?"
Creation had to evolve to adapt to the environment.

Your reasoning of human lifespan not being long enough to witness evolution applies to everything in history, that is why we rely on evidence from the past.

At the same time, we can just see it from animals itself. Lets look at a male lion for example, A male lion has a mane, large teeth, and a body built for it's nature which is to fight and to eat other animals. Do you think any of these physical features would have existed in the garden or prior to sin entering the world? How about insects such as flies or anything that takes the role of decomposition, pollination, or having territorial behaviors? What about animals whose physical features match the specific ecosystem they are found in such as cold climate or warm climate? All of these things had to develop post creation.

Creation first and then evolution. There is just no way for any form of life to just survive on this planet that changes with out adapting to it.
 
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Cis.jd

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Or at least a lot of minds are.

Of course all agree that all except Noah and his family - were terminated in the flood - in Genesis 7. So "all" is not often a group that 100% correct on what is going to happen in nature when God commands it.

Even to this day, the word "all" can be used very loosely. Marine animals such as blue whales would be able to survive, and they wouldn't be able to be put in the ark, and that is just one out of the many other types of whales, dolphins, sharks, and fish. There are so many different species and many of them where recently discovered and because of that we know that "all" couldn't mean 100%. I doubt moses (the writer of genesis) was told all of them animals, especially animals that didn't have a name yet.
 
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DamianWarS

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Exodus 20 uses YHWH for the creation even in vs 8-22 pointing to Gen 2:1-3 statement on SEVEN days. So "inserting" a "NOT YHWH" idea into the seven day creation week fails right out of the gate.
YHWH not being in the Gen 1 account indicates it is of a different source than the Gen 2 account which does include YHWH. Scholars agree, Gen 1 is from a P source and Gen 2 from a J source. Exodus 20 is also likely from a different source than Gen 1. We can't inject words that are not there because later references uses YHWH. God doesn't change, that's not my point, what's different is which group is credited with penning the material. What it also indicates is Gen 1-2 are not a continuous account, they are different accounts juxtaposed together each with their own source and each with their own goals.
 
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DamianWarS

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Just no physical sun and moon in our solar system.

Yes - because that is how Moses' readers would have accepted the text and we today know that light in the universe comes from more places other than our own Sun and moon.
The focus of day 1 is not a luminary it is the light itself. It really doesn't matter if it's physical light or not because the focus is of the light first before a physical source. Sure it could be a giant sun way off in the distance but adding that into the text would be irresponsible simply because the text does not see it important enough to address it. In practice, even if the light is physical, it is being used in an abstract way because the goal is to highlight the light over anything else. This is important because it shows us the significance of light over first the darkness but also over anything of this world. This light is not just sunlight or moonlight it is divine light and it comes first, and that's the point. If some other source is identify other than God than that object would become a focus of worship so it is with intention that the only source identified for the light is God himself and if we follow this light it would only point to God. Verses like 1 Cor 4:6 reveal that this light is a metaphor for the new creation pointing to Christ. These are all abstract concepts and of course an ancient culture will view these things more concretely but just as the slain lamb is about Christ and not actually about killing sheep so to is the light about Christ and not actually about physical light from a physical source. When all we see is the physical then we've missed the point.
 
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DamianWarS

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Ex 20:11 points out that the literal Gen 1-2 account has great meaning.JAL said:
It's not the literal that is important and that's the part you seem unable to accept. it is an orthodox account which then ordains the value of the 7th day. Creation is a prehistory event so there are no eye witnesses and no way to verify the literal so why would the literal matter? The litteral in this case contributes nothing special to the account.

The details are important not because they are literal but because that is what God has revealed to us. God had to tell Peter 3 times that what he calls clean is clean in his dream but Peter was missing the point and looking to strict definitions. God corrects him and reminds him it's clean simply because He says it's clean. In like manner we know creation reveals to us the perfect details because God ordained it. We need not to add details or question them, it is truth because God tells us it is truth which trumps the literal.

The 7th day is still valuable because God tells us it's valuable but it shows us the account itself is not superficial literal details which should encourages us to look beyond the litterally. Verses like 2 Cor 4:6 do just that showing us the light of day 1 is points to Christ and literal light is actually not the focus.
 
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DamianWarS

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But the word does show up in the literal 7 day summation of creation in legal code in Ex 20:8-11 and Gen 2.

Your comment while true technically is left as a distinction without a difference.
It shows us that Gen 1 and Gen 2 are of differences sources which means they are not a continuous account but 2 different accounts juxtaposed together. This is widely accepted by scholars. It also shows us that whomever was responsible with compiling the accounts felt it was important to included both accounts untouched rather than pick one over the other or force reconciling them. We can conclude both are of God albiet from different perspectives and with different goals but also both are important and valuable. We too should not feel the need to reconcile them but instead read them as is, study their unique goals and what they tells us about God.
 
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DamianWarS

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The evolution doctrine on origins is unbiblical as a competing doctrine on origins to the Bible and it does not matter if that storytelling about evolution then claims "well nobody can see this process in our scientific observations in nature today -- because it stopped - so it is hidden from you... just trust us" -- it would still be a competing/contradicting doctrine on origins from that we find in the Bible.

I think this point is very obvious.
We can agree science does not have a theistic goal so will never conclude that God is behind all things. In this culture the OP questions evolution based on a scientific model essentially saying why don't we still see it happen? That answer can be satisfied very easily through a theistic model and biblical one that shows us God ceased creating.

Regardless how you accept evolution using a theistic model of evolution adds a controlling force and fixes your problem with evolution. It still doesn't happen simply because God does not will it. You don't have to accept a theistic evolution conclusion but adding God to the equation does in fact answer the problem of the OP because through a theistic model evolution is not viewed as random but instead ordained and controlled which means it can be stopped.

Your problem is with evolution being random to which I agree but this is not a problem with theistic evolution because God controls it and I think it's an important distinction and one you fail to qualify.
 
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