Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Again, to Mary’s ears in the first century she knew she was going to be Queen since she gave birth to a KING.

You are assuming earthly practices equate to heavenly ones. It is clear from Scripture that the only one who rules in Heaven is God. He alone is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. An earthly king could benefit from the wisdom and guidance of his mother or father but God has no counselor nor needs one. There is nothing God doesn't know, nor does anything escape His attention. He needs no advisors. No one needs to approach a queen mother or father in the hopes of gaining the ear of the King through them. God knows all things including our prayers before we even pray them. We also have direct access to His throne. We don't need to enlist anyone to gain an audience with God. There is no human equivalent to God. There is no queen in heaven nor need for one. You cannot assume an earthly custom applies to heave and if the woman in Revelation 12 is not Mary (as most believe) then you are left with only supposition as Mary is never called Queen of Heaven in Scripture and when Jesus comments on who will sit on His right or left hand in heaven, He makes no mention of Mary which He most certainly would have if that was a given.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Well said.

Revelation is full of figurative language and depictions. Is the Beast a physical beast or a man? How can a woman be literally "clothed with the sun" and given a crown with 12 stars (which is the number of tribs of Israel which is one indication this is a reference to Israel and not Mary)? Was this a literal dragon whose tail is big enough to reach light years across the universe to sweep stars to the earth yet someone not destroy the earth in the process? Did Mary ever sprout wings and fly into the desert? Clearly, these are all figurative depictions, so saying it must be Mary because the woman wore clothes is not a convincing argument.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Well said.

Except at Cana Mary could talk to people and hear their needs. Scripture allows for no conversation between those on earth and those in heaven except for us to pray to God. We do not have a single example in Scripture of anyone on earth praying to anyone in heaven save to God. You are basing a case on one report of Mary making a request of Jesus. One time is not enough to establish a precedence and that was Mary acting in her earthly capacity as Jesus' mother not in a queenly capacity in heaven. We all have the same ability as Mary did to make requests of Jesus. Scripture tells us that if we ask anything of Him that is in His will to give, we will be granted our request. Mary did nothing at Cana the rest of us couldn't have done. Do you think Jesus changed the water into wine because Mary requested it or because it was the Father's will? Jesus stated that He does nothing that is not the Father's will. Do you think God did not know they were running out of wine? God used the occasion for Jesus' first miracle but because it was His plan from before Mary was even created. She was used in His plan but it was not because it was her request that it happened.

 

[RileyG]

Revelation is full of figurative language and depictions. Is the Beast a physical beast or a man? How can a woman be literally "clothed with the sun" and given a crown with 12 stars (which is the number of tribs of Israel which is one indication this is a reference to Israel and not Mary)? Was this a literal dragon whose tail is big enough to reach light years across the universe to sweep stars to the earth yet someone not destroy the earth in the process? Did Mary ever sprout wings and fly into the desert? Clearly, these are all figurative depictions, so saying it must be Mary because the woman wore clothes is not a convincing argument.

I’m aware it’s figurative, and I have no problem with saying the woman is birth Israel and the blessed virgin.

 

[RileyG]

Except at Cana Mary could talk to people and hear their needs. Scripture allows for no conversation between those on earth and those in heaven except for us to pray to God. We do not have a single example in Scripture of anyone on earth praying to anyone in heaven save to God. You are basing a case on one report of Mary making a request of Jesus. One time is not enough to establish a precedence and that was Mary acting in her earthly capacity as Jesus' mother not in a queenly capacity in heaven. We all have the same ability as Mary did to make requests of Jesus. Scripture tells us that if we ask anything of Him that is in His will to give, we will be granted our request. Mary did nothing at Cana the rest of us couldn't have done. Do you think Jesus changed the water into wine because Mary requested it or because it was the Father's will? Jesus stated that He does nothing that is not the Father's will. Do you think God did not know they were running out of wine? God used the occasion for Jesus' first miracle but because it was His plan from before Mary was even created. She was used in His plan but it was not because it was her request that it happened.

Of course God is aware and of course it was his will.

Your point?

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Of course God is aware and of course it was his will.

Your point?

My point is that people use Mary's request to Jesus at Cana as an example of the "Queen Mother" making requests of her son. Mary made her request at Cana as Jesus' mother, not as a queen. That she made such a request as His mother on earth has no bearing on her role in heaven.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I’m aware it’s figurative, and I have no problem with saying the woman is birth Israel and the blessed virgin.

I have no problem saying it is Israel and not Mary.

 

[RileyG]

My point is that people use Mary's request to Jesus at Cana as an example of the "Queen Mother" making requests of her son. Mary made her request at Cana as Jesus' mother, not as a queen. That she made such a request as His mother on earth has no bearing on her role in heaven.

If Jesus is King, Mary is Queen. That’s ENTIRELY biblical.

 

[RileyG]

I have no problem saying it is Israel and not Mary.

Did Israel give birth to Jesus?

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Did Israel give birth to Jesus?

It did. The Messiah came from Israel.

 

[RileyG]

It did. The Messiah came from Israel.

A country gave birth to Jesus? You’re making no sense.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

If Jesus is King, Mary is Queen. That’s ENTIRELY biblical.

The Bible says nothing about a queen in heaven. The earthly practice of a king's mother being a queen does not apply to heaven.

 

[RileyG]

The Bible says nothing about a queen in heaven. The earthly practice of a king's mother being a queen does not apply to heaven.

That’s your opinion only. You seem to be ignoring a large part of scripture.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

A country gave birth to Jesus? You’re making no sense.

It is figurative language we still use today. Do you believe the passage is speaking of a literal dragon? Do you believe this dragon casts a third of the trillions of stars down on the earth? Do you believe Mary sprouted wings? If those things can be figurative why can't Israel give birth to the Messiah?

We might say the United States gave birth to Democracy. We might say it gave birth to George Wadhington and Abraham Lincoln. Figurative language.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

That’s your opinion only. You seem to be ignoring a large part of scripture.

You mean Scriptures about human traditions regarding king's mothers? Tell me where God commanded that a king's mother be called a queen? Tell me where God defined a queen's role?

 

[David Lamb]

The queen makes requests to the king on behalf of the people. As at the wedding at Cana, Mary makes a request, not a demand or order.

At the wedding in Cana, Mary simply says to Jesus, "They have no wine." We are not told that she made a request for Him to provide some miraculously.

 

[Valletta]

At the wedding in Cana, Mary simply says to Jesus, "They have no wine." We are not told that she made a request for Him to provide some miraculously.

That's true. I think we can agree at least she did get the ball rolling. And then there is Jesus addressing her as "woman," as per Genesis and Revelation and at the cross. I know of no other instance in the Bible where a son calls his mother "woman."

 

[RileyG]

You mean Scriptures about human traditions regarding king's mothers? Tell me where God commanded that a king's mother be called a queen? Tell me where God defined a queen's role?

It’s literally right in Kings. Lol. You seem to be ignoring that part.

 

[RileyG]

It is figurative language we still use today. Do you believe the passage is speaking of a literal dragon? Do you believe this dragon casts a third of the trillions of stars down on the earth? Do you believe Mary sprouted wings? If those things can be figurative why can't Israel give birth to the Messiah?

We might say the United States gave birth to Democracy. We might say it gave birth to George Wadhington and Abraham Lincoln. Figurative language.

I never said it was literal. You are taking it out of context.

 

[rturner76]

God the Father is Jesus’s Father, not the Holy Spirit.

I was under the impression that they were not separate Gods but 3 in 1. I think that Jesus is for sure the son of God but I thought he was also God incarnate with the Holy Spirit as "the helper," who strengthens our faith with God the Father being the Father of creation. But the Bible in Genesis and John says something like John 1:1-17: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". That seems to be Jesus as God. Then the Bible describes the Holy Spirit as 1 Corinthians 6:19-20: "He dwells within believers and transforms them into the temple of God" so I don't think they are three separate Gods but three faces of the same God. Does that make sense? Yes Jesus is the Son of God but by being that he is also the human face of God

Honestly, ever since I took Luther's Catechism in junior high, the trinity has often confused me.