Ask a confessional Lutheran

[JM]

Ask a Lutheran Statement of Purpose:
This forum is a place to ask confessional Lutherans questions about their faith. This is not a forum for debate or challenging their beliefs, but to learn and grow from them.

A Few Things to Know About Us:
Wiki: Confessional Lutheranism is a name used by Lutherans to designate those who believe in the doctrines taught in the Book of Concord of 1580 (the Lutheran confessional documents) in their entirety. Confessional Lutherans maintain that faithfulness to the Book of Concord, which is a summary of the teachings found in Scripture, requires attention to how that faith is actually being preached, taught, and put into practice. Confessional Lutherans believe that this is a vital part of their identity as Lutherans.

The term Confessional Lutheran is generally used among the more conservative churches found in groupings such as the International Lutheran Council (ILC), the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference (CELC), and the Global Confessional and Missional Lutheran Forum. Churches of the larger Lutheran World Federation subscribe to the Book of Concord as an exposition of faith in so far as (quatenus) it agrees with their interpretation of the Bible.[1] [end quote]

Forum Guidelines:
Please avoid using inflammatory words or phrases in reference to these public religious figures. Focus on discussing the beliefs and teachings of these leaders (e.g. whether it is biblical or not), but don't mock these leaders as it disrupts civil discussion.

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Terms and rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against its theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Cool idea; but should be in the main forum. More will be able to access it. Feel free to ask a moderator to move this if you are so inclined.

Mark

 

[JM]

Cool idea; but should be in the main forum. More will be able to access it. Feel free to ask a moderator to move this if you are so inclined.

Mark

I'm cool with that.

 

[RileyG]

What are your thoughts on the Sign of the Cross and veneration of relics?

 

[JM]

What are your thoughts on the Sign of the Cross and veneration of relics?

Thank you for the question RileyG, I'm new to Lutheranism and will do my best to give an honest answer.

The Small Catechism [Lutheran] reads, “In the morning and in the evening, you shall bless yourself with the sign of the Holy Cross and, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.” The Small Catechism is probably the oldest catechism in continued use (not the oldest but the oldest in continued use) and it is assumed the sign of the cross is to be made. During the Divine Service you will see many Lutherans make the sign of the cross when the Holy Trinity is mentioned, at the beginning and end of Service. I've heard it said the sign of the cross is a prayer acted out physically and I concur.

As for veneration of relics no, we do not venerate relics or icons.

"The relics of the saints, about which there are so many falsehoods, trifles and ab sur di ties concerning the bones of dogs and horses, that at such rascality even the devil has laughed, ought long ago to have been condemned, even though there were some good in them: and so much the more in that, with out the Word of God, they are an entirely unnecessary and useless thing. But the worst is that they have imagined that these relics work the indulgence and forgiveness of sins [and have revered them] as a good work and service of God, as the Mass, etc." II. Of The Mass. – Appendix: Of the Invocation of Saints. The Smalcald Articles.

God be praised!

jm

 

[Markie Boy]

Thank you for the question RileyG, I'm new to Lutheranism and will do my best to give an honest answer.

The Small Catechism [Lutheran] reads, “In the morning and in the evening, you shall bless yourself with the sign of the Holy Cross and, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.” The Small Catechism is probably the oldest catechism in continued use (not the oldest but the oldest in continued use) and it is assumed the sign of the cross is to be made. During the Divine Service you will see many Lutherans make the sign of the cross when the Holy Trinity is mentioned, at the beginning and end of Service. I've heard it said the sign of the cross is a prayer acted out physically and I concur.

As for veneration of relics no, we do not venerate relics or icons.

"The relics of the saints, about which there are so many falsehoods, trifles and ab sur di ties concerning the bones of dogs and horses, that at such rascality even the devil has laughed, ought long ago to have been condemned, even though there were some good in them: and so much the more in that, with out the Word of God, they are an entirely unnecessary and useless thing. But the worst is that they have imagined that these relics work the indulgence and forgiveness of sins [and have revered them] as a good work and service of God, as the Mass, etc." II. Of The Mass. – Appendix: Of the Invocation of Saints. The Smalcald Articles.

God be praised!

jm

Sign of the cross - OK. Relics - not good, have seen them lead to superstition and all sorts of funky ideas.

 

[synger]

What are your thoughts on the Sign of the Cross and veneration of relics?

The Sign of the Cross is adiaphora... it is neither required nor forbidden. The rubrics in the Lutheran Service Book (hymnal) include a symbol used in the liturgy when one can cross oneself. As mentioned up-thread, Luther himself says in the Small Catechism to cross oneself before prayer to remind us of our Baptism. That being said, most Lutherans I observe do not cross themselves. It is becoming more common... but it's definitely not as common as in Roman Catholicism or even Anglican observance.

 

[tampasteve]

I am going to "stick" this thread on the forum so it stays on top. This is the correct forum for the conversation being asked.

 

[AlexB23]

Ask a Lutheran Statement of Purpose:
This forum is a place to ask confessional Lutherans questions about their faith. This is not a forum for debate or challenging their beliefs, but to learn and grow from them.

A Few Things to Know About Us:
Wiki: Confessional Lutheranism is a name used by Lutherans to designate those who believe in the doctrines taught in the Book of Concord of 1580 (the Lutheran confessional documents) in their entirety. Confessional Lutherans maintain that faithfulness to the Book of Concord, which is a summary of the teachings found in Scripture, requires attention to how that faith is actually being preached, taught, and put into practice. Confessional Lutherans believe that this is a vital part of their identity as Lutherans.

The term Confessional Lutheran is generally used among the more conservative churches found in groupings such as the International Lutheran Council (ILC), the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference (CELC), and the Global Confessional and Missional Lutheran Forum. Churches of the larger Lutheran World Federation subscribe to the Book of Concord as an exposition of faith in so far as (quatenus) it agrees with their interpretation of the Bible.[1] [end quote]

Forum Guidelines:
Please avoid using inflammatory words or phrases in reference to these public religious figures. Focus on discussing the beliefs and teachings of these leaders (e.g. whether it is biblical or not), but don't mock these leaders as it disrupts civil discussion.

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Terms and rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against its theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

What are your thoughts on ELCA? Have ELCA Lutherans strayed from the original teachings of Lutheranism?

The ELCA is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, founded in 1988, and tends towards liberal ideologies as of lately. I am not a fan of it, but some folks are.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

What are your thoughts on ELCA? Have ELCA Lutherans strayed from the original teachings of Lutheranism?

The ELCA is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, founded in 1988, and tends towards liberal ideologies as of lately. I am not a fan of it, but some folks are.

While there are still many in these more liberal synods who were still retain a confessional faith (a percentage of those my age and older) as a Church they have applied scriptural criticisms that they use to change the meaning of the Bible to accommodate the secular world. Most recently, the Lutheran Church of Australia voted to allow women's ordination. We believe this is contrary to the plain reading of Scripture. As such, their doing so broke their fellowship agreement with Lutheran Church Canada.

Bottom line; while there are faithful members within the liberal churches, by confessional standards it is hard to see their organizations as part of the the "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" when teachings and practice are at odds with God's Word.

 

[AlexB23]

While there are still many in these more liberal synods who were still retain a confessional faith (a percentage of those my age and older) as a Church they have applied scriptural criticisms that they use to change the meaning of the Bible to accommodate the secular world. Most recently, the Lutheran Church of Australia voted to allow women's ordination. We believe this is contrary to the plain reading of Scripture. As such, their doing so broke their fellowship agreement with Lutheran Church Canada.

Bottom line; while there are faithful members within the liberal churches, by confessional standards it is hard to see their organizations as part of the the "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" when teachings and practice are at odds with God's Word.

Should the Lutheran church no longer accept ELCA as being Lutheran? I feel that ELCA has gone worldly. Now, if a woman wants to be a priest, that is fine. But, if she starts preaching woke ideology, then she must be removed. So far, it seems that a lot of women priests preach this woke ideology. Pray that secular ideologies stay outside the churches.

So far, it seems that some Lutheran churches, as well as Baptists, Orthodox and most Catholics have stayed far away from woke stuff, but even the Pope said a few things that are disturbing. Every denomination is being influenced by the secular world, and it makes me feel that the End Times might be soon (as in maybe a few decades away at the earliest to a few centuries at the latest).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't want to generalize, but when I see churches like the United Church of Canada who provided an end of life service and hosted an assisted suicide in one of their sanctuaries, their affirmation of what ever the confused alphabet stands for this week along with whom ever is presently deviating away from both Holy Scripture and their roots, origins and traditions, the thin edge of the wedge seems to be female ordination. Easy to justify by just denying Genesis and the order of Creation. That is where these Churches started; ours remains pretty much where it has always stood.

A former Pastor of mine said a week ago: "This is what happens when you suddenly let people vote on doctrine".

 

[AlexB23]

I don't want to generalize, but when I see churches like the United Church of Canada who provided an end of life service and hosted an assisted suicide in one of their sanctuaries, their affirmation of what ever the confused alphabet stands for this week along with whom ever is presently deviating away from both Holy Scripture and their roots, origins and traditions, the thin edge of the wedge seems to be female ordination. Easy to justify by just denying Genesis and the order of Creation. That is where these Churches started; ours remains pretty much where it has always stood.

A former Pastor of mine said a week ago: "This is what happens when you suddenly let people vote on doctrine".

The United church of Canada is demonic, same with the United Church of Christ. It is time that we rebuke them publicly, and shame those pastors into understanding the truth.

From Wikipedia:
The [United Church of Canada] believes that there are many paths to God (in violation of John 14:6). The United Church's path is through Jesus Christ, but the church also recognizes that Christians' understanding of this is limited by an incomplete comprehension of God; their belief is that the Holy Spirit is also at work through other non-Christian faiths (syncretism).

Guys, we are in the End Times, these woke churches are being invaded by demonic forces.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The United church of Canada is demonic, same with the United Church of Christ. It is time that we rebuke them publicly, and shame those pastors into understanding the truth.

Is this not what we are doing every single time the Gospel is preached and and the Sacraments are administered, and their grace imparted?

Their own actions have set them apart from the Church just as the Australian Church has set itself apart from LCC and any of the other Confessional Churches with which it may be in fellowship.

Self exclusion.

 

[Markie Boy]

The United church of Canada is demonic, same with the United Church of Christ. It is time that we rebuke them publicly, and shame those pastors into understanding the truth.

From Wikipedia:
The [United Church of Canada] believes that there are many paths to God (in violation of John 14:6). The United Church's path is through Jesus Christ, but the church also recognizes that Christians' understanding of this is limited by an incomplete comprehension of God; their belief is that the Holy Spirit is also at work through other non-Christian faiths (syncretism).

Guys, we are in the End Times, these woke churches are being invaded by demonic forces.

Didn't the pope recently say that all religions are a path to God?

 

[AlexB23]

Didn't the pope recently say that all religions are a path to God?

Yep. Even the Pope said that, which is why I do not trust the Papal office.

 

[JM]

Should the Lutheran church no longer accept ELCA as being Lutheran? I feel that ELCA has gone worldly. Now, if a woman wants to be a priest, that is fine. But, if she starts preaching woke ideology, then she must be removed. So far, it seems that a lot of women priests preach this woke ideology. Pray that secular ideologies stay outside the churches.

So far, it seems that some Lutheran churches, as well as Baptists, Orthodox and most Catholics have stayed far away from woke stuff, but even the Pope said a few things that are disturbing. Every denomination is being influenced by the secular world, and it makes me feel that the End Times might be soon (as in maybe a few decades away at the earliest to a few centuries at the latest).

I moved from Baptist to Lutheran and before digging deeper I thought all Luths were like ELCA to differing degrees. I don't remember "the good old days" when altar and pulpit fellowship was held between the ELCA and LCMS, etc. and view the ELCA as fake Christians. If you're a confessional Lutheran in the ELCA you should flee Babylon.

 

[JM]

The United church of Canada is demonic, same with the United Church of Christ. It is time that we rebuke them publicly, and shame those pastors into understanding the truth.

From Wikipedia:
The [United Church of Canada] believes that there are many paths to God (in violation of John 14:6). The United Church's path is through Jesus Christ, but the church also recognizes that Christians' understanding of this is limited by an incomplete comprehension of God; their belief is that the Holy Spirit is also at work through other non-Christian faiths (syncretism).

Guys, we are in the End Times, these woke churches are being invaded by demonic forces.

I can get on board with this.

 

[AlexB23]

I moved from Baptist to Lutheran and before digging deeper I thought all Luths were like ELCA to differing degrees. I don't remember "the good old days" when altar and pulpit fellowship was held between the ELCA and LCMS, etc. and view the ELCA as fake Christians. If you're a confessional Lutheran in the ELCA you should flee Babylon.

I am glad I am not part of ELCA, cos I am Catholic. Yeah, folks should leave the ELCA immediately.

 

[Shane R]

provided an end of life service and hosted an assisted suicide in one of their sanctuaries,

I don't want to derail the thread but that seems to be the next issue of contention up for debate. The Church of England is getting conflicting opinions from two Archbishops of Canterbury: George Carey is favorable and Justin Welby is opposed.