Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Spiritual Jew]

The rapture verses are fulfilled together because they are about the same rapture.

Here's proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:3-4 (NLT): When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

One of God's "dreadful punishments" (war) is in Rev 6:4. All four of God's "dreadful punishments" are in Rev 6:8. The early seals are full of God's wrath. That is the "wrath to come," and the earliest it will come is in Rev 6:4 (simultaneous wars all over the world caused by God).

Therefore, Rev 6:4 is "the wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. It will be Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

What does "delivers us" mean? From Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Deliver: The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatch away"), palat [f;l'P] ("make an escape"), malat [f;l'm] ("to cause to escape"), halas [l'j] (to "draw out"), and yasa [[;v"y] ("to save") fall within the field of meaning describing God's redemptive activity on the part of his people. This usage of deliverance focuses on God's removal of those who are in the midst of trouble or danger.

God will know when the wrath will come to start the Trib. When it's about to come, we believers will be snatched away from Earth. That's what 1 Th 1:10 is about, which simultaneously fulfills 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and Rev 4:1. In greater detail, the "last trump" will sound in 1 Th 4:16. We will be changed into our eternal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and we are then snatched away (1 Th 4:17 and John 14:3) to Heaven (Rev 4:1).

That is proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

The following verse is similar to 1 Thessalonians 1:10.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The wrath that I believe Paul is talking about in each verse is what he wrote about here:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Would you agree that the above passage refers to the wrath that Paul said we are not appointed to? It's pretty clear that the context of what he wrote in 1 Thess 5:9 is in relation to what he had just written shortly prior to that and I believe 1 Thessalonians 1:10 can be applied to 1 Thess 5:2-3 as well.

So, if you're in agreement that the wrath referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is the wrath we are not appointed to and will be delivered from, then we can talk about what exactly that wrath entails and when it will happen.

 

[keras]

Where's your proof that Rev 4:1 is not the pre-Trib rapture of the Church?

That verse simply does not say any such thing.
You are delusional and need professional help.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The following verse is similar to 1 Thessalonians 1:10.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The wrath that I believe Paul is talking about in each verse is what he wrote about here:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Would you agree that the above passage refers to the wrath that Paul said we are not appointed to? It's pretty clear that the context of what he wrote in 1 Thess 5:9 is in relation to what he had just written shortly prior to that and I believe 1 Thessalonians 1:10 can be applied to 1 Thess 5:2-3 as well.

So, if you're in agreement that the wrath referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is the wrath we are not appointed to and will be delivered from, then we can talk about what exactly that wrath entails and when it will happen.

Yes, 1 Th 5:9 is what 1 Th 1:10 is about.

The "wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10 is referring to the beginning of wrath in the Trib. The 2nd seal is where God's wrath begins, and that seal is strongly implied to be opened on the first day of the Trib. Its wrath and its timing are why the pre-Trib timing of the rapture cannot be disputed.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That verse simply does not say any such thing.
You are delusional and need professional help.

You are devoid of all attempts to refute my claims. You therefore resort to petting criticism.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, 1 Th 5:9 is what 1 Th 1:10 is about.

The "wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10 is referring to the beginning of wrath in the Trib. The 2nd seal is where God's wrath begins, and that seal is strongly implied to be opened on the first day of the Trib. Its wrath and its timing are why the pre-Trib timing of the rapture cannot be disputed.

Okay, so do you agree that what is described in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is the wrath of God that 1 Thess 5:9 and 1 Thess 1:10 are talking about? Let's focus on this first before talking about the seals and so on, please.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Okay, so do you agree that what is described in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is the wrath of God that 1 Thess 5:9 and 1 Thess 1:10 are talking about? Let's focus on this first before talking about the seals and so on, please.

No. I believe that 1 Th 5:2-3 relate to Rev 6:1-2. The first revelation of the actual AC is in Rev 6:1-2. Verse 2 (ESV) ends with: ... and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

"Conquering" is in present time. Therefore, 1 Th 5:2-3 appear to reflect the present-time conquering by the AC. All hell will obviously break loose in 1 Th 5:2-3, and I believe that is the present-time "conquering" by the AC.

Now, any attempt to conquer will be met with resistance. Hence, the wars that will break out from the 2nd seal.

Given that "conquering" and "wars" are interrelated, the 2nd seal is opened very soon after the 1st seal. The timing of the rapture has to be pre-Trib to align fully with 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 4:1.

 

[Douggg]

No. I believe that 1 Th 5:2-3 relate to Rev 6:1-2. The first revelation of the actual AC is in Rev 6:1-2. Verse 2 (ESV) ends with: ... and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

Jeffrey, the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 is the Antichrist person, agreed.

He becomes the Antichrist following the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 39. That event will end the Muslim presence on the temple mount, allowing the Jews (Judaism) to begin rebuilding their temple.

Although the Muslim armies will be supernaturally destroyed in the Gog/Magog event, there may be some factions rise up that will want to stop the building of the temple once it gets started - that will probably include destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque. imo, the Antichrist, as the newly anointed King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah, will militarily put down any resistance to the building of the temple - i.e the conquering and to conquer.

The Jews (Judaism) believe that the messiah will take part in the building of the new temple.

Also one of the premises he will give to heading into the middle east following Gog/Magog will be that as being peace keeper for the region in the aftermath of Gog/Magog. When he does so, he will fulfill the prophecy of the prince that shall come in Daniel 9:26.

Two key traits the Jews (Judaism) are looking for in the messiah (from the Judaism 101 site on the "mashiach") is that he (1) will be a great politician (2) will have military ability in order to defend Israel.

So, some important factors to look for.
(1) he has to be a Jew.
(2) a noted politician
(3) have military ability
(4) becomes leader over a panel of ten EU leaders (before the Gog/Magog event takes place)

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jeffrey, the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 is the Antichrist person, agreed.

He becomes the Antichrist following the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 39. That event will end the Muslim presence on the temple mount, allowing the Jews (Judaism) to begin rebuilding their temple.

Although the Muslim armies will be supernaturally destroyed in the Gog/Magog event, there may be some factions rise up that will want to stop the building of the temple once it gets started - that will probably include destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque. imo, the Antichrist, as the newly anointed King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah, will militarily put down any resistance to the building of the temple - i.e the conquering and to conquer.

The Jews (Judaism) believe that the messiah will take part in the building of the new temple.

Also one of the premises he will give to heading into the middle east following Gog/Magog will be that as being peace keeper for the region in the aftermath of Gog/Magog. When he does so, he will fulfill the prophecy of the prince that shall come in Daniel 9:26.

Two key traits the Jews (Judaism) are looking for in the messiah (from the Judaism 101 site on the "mashiach") is that he (1) will be a great politician (2) will have military ability in order to defend Israel.

So, some important factors to look for.
(1) he has to be a Jew.
(2) a noted politician
(3) have military ability
(4) becomes leader over a panel of ten EU leaders (before the Gog/Magog event takes place)

We agree on much. This is my summary:

The first revelation of the AC is Rev 6:1-2. Another verse that backs up this "first revelation" is 2 Th 2:3 (ESV). Its ending words are a restatement of Rev 6:1-2: ... the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

1 Th 5:2-3 fulfill the "conquering" in Rev 6:1-2 (ESV). Clearly, the AC immediately takes on the role of military commander.

The 2nd seal is the beginning of the Gog/Magog war. That war is believed to be short, so it starts and ends in the 2nd seal.

The AC's most prominent revelation is, of course, the abomination of the temple in Matt 24:15. It is my belief that is when Satan indwells the AC. I say this because Matt 24:16 aligns with Rev 12:13-17.

Suffice to say the pre-Trib rapture is an indisputable fact. We are not on Earth during the Trib. There are a handful of verses that prove that no believers enter the Trib. The earliest of those verses is Rev 6:4 (ESV): And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword.

The indiscriminate murders that dominate the behavior in Rev 6:4 are carried out by unbelievers. Only unbelievers would be manipulatable in this fashion. We are not there in Rev 6:4.

Rev 6:15 (ESV) cites "everyone" on Earth. In verses 15-16, everyone on Earth: hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, ...

Verse 16 is about an alleged sighting of Jesus. The whole world reacts by running away in terror to hide themselves in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. My friend, that is the entire world proving its rejection of Jesus Christ.

If believers were present in Rev 6:15-17, our behavior would be the complete opposite. If Jesus were truly nearby, we would be overjoyed and we would run to him, thanking Him and worshipping Him! There is not one person on Earth in the 6th seal that manifests Christian conduct. The conduct that is manifested in verses 15-17, again, is a manifest rejection of Jesus Christ. We are not there in Rev 6:15-17.

 

[Fisherking]

Where did the Great Multitude come from?

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

For starters, you overthink this and do not use all the n umbers provided, if 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4 and you only use two of the 1s you will of course not get the correct answer. So, lets look at two things that tells us who those Saints can not be. We know once the 5 virgins miss the wedding call they will be locked out (keep that in mind).

So, those true 70th week saints seen in seal #5 are given white robes and told they must wait a little season, (as in 42 months) until ALL of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they have, and only then will they get their vengeance. So, these saints will n ever be taken to heaven and judged, they must wait until the Beasts 42 month rule is over and ONLY THEN do they get resurrected and judged.

And Rev. 20:4 AGREES with the above notions.

4 And I saw thrones, and they(Church) sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, if everyone from the 70th week who gets killed is seen in Rev. 7:9-16 who are these people being RAISED & JUDGED in Rev. 20:4? Why do we not add everything up? Then we could see that four ones = 4 not 2. Also, look at the ONLY PEOPELE qualified to serve with Jesus 1000 years, its those who refused the Mark of the Beast and were slain because of this. Jesus is God he does not need billions of people standing around as he rules. In my opinion we go to help finish of the New Jerusalem, thus as it descends it is called the Bride of Christ (because we descend in it).

So, the above proves those in Rev. 7:9-16 can not be post 70th week saints, so that only leaves the Pre Trib. Raptured church, who came out of great tribulation, not the GREATEST EVER TRIBULATION, but still Great Tribulation. We have managed to say God can not use great to describe the Church Age tribulation. Its like says a team behind in football by 28 points who comes back to win can not be called a GREAT COMEBACK all because another team who was behind by 40 made the GREATEST ALL-TIME COMEBACK, but of course that makes no sense, one can be the greatest of all-time and the other can still be a great comeback.

Rev. 2 & 3 ends the Church Age. Rev. 4 & 5 are the Church in Heaven just before the Seals are broken. Revelation 7 is the 144,000 (code for ALL Israel who repent, the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 which = 5 Million) Then at the end of the chapter we get a flash up to heaven, where we see the Raptured Church that came out of great tribulation, which the church did, millions slain over 2000 some odd years. By Rome, by Muslims et al.


In John 16:33 Jesus told us that in him we would have peace, but in the world we would have CONTINUAL TROUBLES (tribulation). So, all time on earth is tribulation, there is a 42 month period during the 70th week however that will be the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES ever seen. However, those seeing this time period can not go to heaven, they are only raised after Jesus' 2nd coming unless Rev. 20:4 is a lie. They are also told by Jesus that they MUST WAIT a little Season (42 months) until ALL their brothers had been killed, then and inly then will they get justice. So, adding it all up, no one from the 70th week gets into the Wedding, the doors will be shut, the 7 years will not allow any other wedding guests at all.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

There's one pre-Trib rapture of the Church: Rev 4:1. The other rapture verses, 1 Th 4:16-17, John 14:3, 1 Th 1:10 and 1 Cor 15:52 are all fulfilled upon Rev 4:1.

1 Th4:15=remain unto the resurrection
4:16=resurrection
4:17=remain after the resurrection
1Cor15:52=change at the same time as resurrection
Therefore, those changed at the resurrection remain after the resurrection and are those of Isaiah 4:3 (believing Jews) and Zechariah 14:16(believing gentiles)

1 Th 1:10
You're saying that being delivered from the Wrath of God is proof there's a Pre-Tribulation rapture, even thought the church must go through many tribulations in order to enter the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22
Matthew 24:9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

The last trumpet is not the 7th trumpet. Please read the following (1.5 pages long) that beautifully teaches exactly what "the last trumpet" is. You will find it in 1 Th 4:16. The Last Trump | Learn The Bible | LearnTheBible.org

Where'd I mention "7th trumpet"? And where does Rev 4:1 say "last trumpet"?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No. I believe that 1 Th 5:2-3 relate to Rev 6:1-2. The first revelation of the actual AC is in Rev 6:1-2. Verse 2 (ESV) ends with: ... and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

Why would you think that what Paul said in 1 Thess 5:9 regarding believers not being appointed to God's wrath would not relate directly to what he had just written shortly before that in verses 2 and 3 related to God's wrath? It's clear to me that the context of verse 9 relates directly to verses 2 and 3 and I have no idea why you would deny that.

"Conquering" is in present time. Therefore, 1 Th 5:2-3 appear to reflect the present-time conquering by the AC. All hell will obviously break loose in 1 Th 5:2-3, and I believe that is the present-time "conquering" by the AC.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is absolutely not in present time. Where are you getting that from? It's talking about the day of the Lord coming in the future. The day of Christ's return.

If you think the following is in present time...

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

then do you think the following passage is also about the present time since it also is about the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Why would you think that what Paul said in 1 Thess 5:9 regarding believers not being appointed to God's wrath would not relate directly to what he had just written shortly before that in verses 2 and 3 related to God's wrath? It's clear to me that the context of verse 9 relates directly to verses 2 and 3 and I have no idea why you would deny that.


1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is absolutely not in present time. Where are you getting that from? It's talking about the day of the Lord coming in the future. The day of Christ's return.

If you think the following is in present time...

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

then do you think the following passage is also about the present time since it also is about the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

We agree on much, and I'm not trying to split hairs. I'm sorry if I have appeared to do so. I do think 1 Th 5:9 relates to 1 Th 1:10. Those verses are about the coming wrath (in the 2nd seal) that will trigger the pre-Trib rapture.

This is where we differ: 1 Th 5:2-3 are about the first day of the Trib, after the pre-Trib rapture. All hell breaks loose after the rapture. The AC has been initially revealed and he's into his conquest to conquer. The 2nd seal will be opened and the Gog-Magog war will start. As a result, the 2nd seal causes wars to break out all over the world. People are seriously confused and all hell breaks loose at the start of the Trib, after the pre-Trib rapture.

I want to prove that no believers enter the Trib. This is data not many Christians understand. I am here to help.

When the 4th seal is opened, in Rev 6:8, 25% of the world's population will be brutally killed by famine, disease, wild beasts and wars. Those are the four dreadful punishments from God's wrath articulated in Ezekiel 14:21. The early seals are chock-full of God's wrath.

In all this worldwide killing, millions of unbelievers will recognize their mistake in rejecting Jesus, and they will repent and accept Jesus as their savior. They will then give testimony of Jesus Christ, and they will be martyred. Those martyrs are the first group of "fellow servants" (Rev 6:11) that will begin the formation of the GM (great multitude in Rev 7:9-17). Jesus said in Rev 6:11 that those martyrs (under that altar in Rev 6:9) will need to wait for a number of their "fellow servants" to be killed, as they were. Those will be the martyrs from the killings in Rev 12:17 and Rev 13:15. All the martyrs in the Trib stay under the altar in Heaven, until all are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4.

They are next seen in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17. That is the totality of the GM being the result of the greatest revival in the Trib: the saving of a multitude by the very hard work of the 144k (144,000 sealed servants of God, in Rev 7:3-8).

In Rev 6:10, those are new converts that have been martyred that are crying out to Jesus. Those folks entered the Trib as unbelievers, and they saw the light in all the killing in the first four seals, and they came to Christ. A lot of Bible readers confuse those folks in Rev 6:10 as believers who enter the Trib. They are not. They are new converts from the greatest revival in the Trib, through God's sealed servants: the 144k.

Rev 6:15-17 thoroughly prove that no believers enter the Trib. In verse 15, "everyone" on Earth is specifically cited as being party to the 6th seal. They then prove that not one person in all the world is a believer. That is proven by the wholesale rejection of Jesus Christ that everyone in the 6th seal exhibits. They claim an alleged sighting of Jesus, and they then run in complete terror to hide in caves and under rocks. All those folks behave completely opposite of believers. They prove their unbelief by their public rejection of Jesus. If we believers were there, and Jesus truly was seen nearby, we would run to him in complete joy, to thank Him and worship Him! Therefore, that is proof that "everyone" on Earth (cited in Rev 6:15) is an unbeliever because not one of them behaves like a believer. The proof is in their conduct.

No believers enter the Trib.

That begs the question: So, who are the believers in Matt 24:31, referred to as "the elect?" Those are persecuted Jews who fled Israel over many centuries to parts far and wide all over all the earth. They are gathered in Matt 24:31 for the judgments in Matt 25:31-46. Those gathered in Matt 24:31 are the sheep in Matt 25:31-40. Unbelievers who survived the Trib are the goats in Matt 25:41-46.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Why don't you go and cultivate beans?
That would be useful, rather than raving on here and making yourself look foolish.
Until a pre-trib believer of a rapture to heaven, can provide a simple, straight forward verse, which states that, then no amount of assumption, guesswork and lengthy posts, will convince me.

I would think most here are heartily sick of your pronouncements and wild assertions.
Just get on with practicing bunny hops and trying to decide whether to keep your arms outstretched , or by your sides, as you zoom upward.

You have managed quite well, so far; to put the theory of a pre-trib rapture, into a very bad light. People would not like to associate with someone as Biblically illiterate as you and willing to twist and misinterpret scripture.

No refutation by you, Keras. You can't show me any verses that are truly relevant, that refute the pre-Trib rapture. You, in effect, are calling apostle John a liar. He never left the island of Patmos during his entire vision of Revelation. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove an angel was sent to John to show him the vision of Revelation. Those verses prove that Rev 4:1 is entirely a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. You can't prove any believers enter the Trib, and you won't acknowledge the reason is: Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No refutation by you, Keras. You can't show me any verses that are truly relevant, that refute the pre-Trib rapture. You, in effect, are calling apostle John a liar. He never left the island of Patmos during his entire vision of Revelation. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove an angel was sent to John to show him the vision of Revelation. Those verses prove that Rev 4:1 is entirely a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. You can't prove any believers enter the Trib, and you won't acknowledge the reason is: Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

God will know when the wrath will come to start the Trib. When it's about to come, we believers will be snatched away from Earth. That's what 1 Th 1:10 is about, which simultaneously fulfills 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and Rev 4:1. In greater detail, the "last trump" will sound in 1 Th 4:16. We will be changed into our eternal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and we are then snatched away (1 Th 4:17 and John 14:3) to Heaven (Rev 4:1).

That is proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

Why don't you go and cultivate beans?
That would be useful, rather than raving on here and making yourself look foolish.
Until a pre-trib believer of a rapture to heaven, can provide a simple, straight forward verse, which states that, then no amount of assumption, guesswork and lengthy posts, will convince me.

I would think most here are heartily sick of your pronouncements and wild assertions.
Just get on with practicing bunny hops and trying to decide whether to keep your arms outstretched , or by your sides, as you zoom upward.

You have managed quite well, so far; to put the theory of a pre-trib rapture, into a very bad light. People would not like to associate with someone as Biblically illiterate as you and willing to twist and misinterpret scripture.

Here's proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:4 (NLT): When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

One of God's "dreadful punishments" (war) is in Rev 6:4. All four of God's "dreadful punishments" are in Rev 6:8. The early seals are full of God's wrath. That is the "wrath to come," and the earliest it will come is in Rev 6:4 (simultaneous wars all over the world caused by God).

Therefore, Rev 6:4 is "the wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. It will be Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

What does "delivers us" mean? From Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Deliver: The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatch away"), palat [f;l'P] ("make an escape"), malat [f;l'm] ("to cause to escape"), halas [l'j] (to "draw out"), and yasa [[;v"y] ("to save") fall within the field of meaning describing God's redemptive activity on the part of his people. This usage of deliverance focuses on God's removal of those who are in the midst of trouble or danger.

 

[keras]

God will know when the wrath will come to start the Trib. When it's about to come, we believers will be snatched away from Earth. That's what 1 Th 1:10 is about, which simultaneously fulfills 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and Rev 4:1. In greater detail, the "last trump" will sound in 1 Th 4:16. We will be changed into our eternal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and we are then snatched away (1 Th 4:17 and John 14:3) to Heaven (Rev 4:1).

That is proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

Here's proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:4 (NLT): When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

One of God's "dreadful punishments" (war) is in Rev 6:4. All four of God's "dreadful punishments" are in Rev 6:8. The early seals are full of God's wrath. That is the "wrath to come," and the earliest it will come is in Rev 6:4 (simultaneous wars all over the world caused by God).

Therefore, Rev 6:4 is "the wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. It will be Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

What does "delivers us" mean? From Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Deliver: The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatch away"), palat [f;l'P] ("make an escape"), malat [f;l'm] ("to cause to escape"), halas [l'j] (to "draw out"), and yasa [[;v"y] ("to save") fall within the field of meaning describing God's redemptive activity on the part of his people. This usage of deliverance focuses on God's removal of those who are in the midst of trouble or danger.

Youi are so blinded and locked into the false teaching of a rapture, that you fail to see that none of the verses you present as 'proof' have anything to say about the Lord taking anyone to heaven.
That whole idea of a rapture is unscriptural. illogical and simply cannot happen. God will protect His people, those who have the faith to trust in Him thru all which must take place.
There is actually, plenty of precedence for His protection, it is what is Promised for Christians:
Protection for His people:
Psalms 23:4 Even if I walk through a valley of darkness, I will fear no harm, for You are with me.

Isaiah 41:3 For I the Lord, will hold your right hand, saying: fear not, I will help you.

Isaiah 43:2b…walk thru fire and you will not be scorched, thru flames and not be burned.

Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you who obey Him, it may be that you will be sheltered on the Day of the Lord’s anger.

Proverbs 3:25 Do not be afraid when fools are frightened or when destruction overtakes the wicked, for the Lord will be at your side on that Day.

Daniel 3:25 An angel protects the 3 men in the furnace. THEY weren’t taken out of it!

Jeremiah 30:7 How terrible is that Day….yet Jacob [Israel: My people] will come thru it safely.

1 Corinthians 10:13.... God will not test you beyond your powers and when the test comes, He will provide a way out to enable you to endure.

Psalms 9:10 The Lord does not abandon those who seek Him and trust in Him.

2 Peter 2:9 God knows how to rescue the godly from their trials.

Psalms 18:3 I shall call upon the Lord, then I will be made safe.

Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong, all you whose hope is in the Lord.

Psalms 64:10 The righteous rejoice, their refuge in the Lord.

Zechariah 9:15-16 The Lord of hosts will protect His people...On that Day, He will save them, like a flock, for they are precious to Him. Isaiah 61:10

Psalms 37:18-19 The Lord watches over the righteous, when times are bad, they will not be distressed.

Job 22:30 He will deliver the innocent, because their hands are pure.

Psalms 91:1-16 ...He will rescue you, you will not fear the terrors abroad.

Psalms 121:1-8 Our help comes from the Lord, He will guard your life.

Psalms 109:31 The Lord stands at the right hand of the poor and saves them from trials.

Isaiah 51:16 I keep you covered under the shelter of My hand.

Psalms 97:10-12 He keeps His loyal servants safe and rescues them from the wicked.

Jeremiah 17:7-8 Blessed is anyone who trusts in the Lord, they will be like trees by a stream, when the heat comes it has nothing to fear.

Nahum 1:7 The Lord is a sure protection in times of trouble and cares for all those who make Him their refuge.

Psalms 60:4-5 To those who fear the Lord, He will show the way to escape from trouble.

Psalms 37:9 For evildoers will be destroyed, those who trust in the Lord will prosper in the Land.

Isaiah 26:20 On that Day, I will come to your aid.

Daniel 12:1 There will be a time of anguish, but at that time, Your people will be delivered, all those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 ...to give you relief when the Lord Jesus comes in blazing fire.

Joel 3:16 The Lord roars from Zion, the heavens and the earth shudder, but He is a refuge for His people and a defence for Israel.

Isaiah 65:9b My chosen ones will take possession of the land, those who serve Me will live there.

Ecclesiasticus 34:13-17 Those who fear the Lord will live, for their trust in Him can keep them safe. The Lord keeps watch over those who love Him, He is their shield and support, a shelter from the scorching wind and the heat of the sun. He raises their spirits and gives healing, life and blessings. Apoc.

Reference: Revised English Bible.

 

[Douggg]

Youi are so blinded and locked into the false teaching of a rapture, that you fail to see that none of the verses you present as 'proof' have anything to say about the Lord taking anyone to heaven.
That whole idea of a rapture is unscriptural. illogical and simply cannot happen. God will protect His people, those who have the faith to trust in Him thru all which must take place.
There is actually, plenty of precedence for His protection, it is what is Promised for Christians:

keras, the rapture/resurrection event involves both the dead in Christ and the living in Christ. There is no reason to resurrect the dead in Christ in order to protect them from physical harm to take place during the great tribulation....as the dead in Christ, their bodies are already dead.

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The completion of our salvation is when our bodies are redeemed into eternal life, everlasting bodies.

----------------------------------------------------

1Thessalonians5 indicates that the rapture/resurrection event must take place before the day of the Lord begins - when God's wrath will be poured out. In 2Thessalonians2:4, the day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

 

[Douggg]

Reference: Revised English Bible.

keras - a suggestion. When noting that you are quoting the Revised English Bible, add the "1989" prefix to it.

It is good that you note what bible version you are quoting from. But it is important to also note that it is.... Reference: 1989 Revised English Bible. Otherwise, readers of your post might think you are referring to the 1877 Revised English Bible.

Revised English Bible - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Youi are so blinded and locked into the false teaching of a rapture, that you fail to see that none of the verses you present as 'proof' have anything to say about the Lord taking anyone to heaven.
That whole idea of a rapture is unscriptural. illogical and simply cannot happen. God will protect His people, those who have the faith to trust in Him thru all which must take place.
There is actually, plenty of precedence for His protection, it is what is Promised for Christians:
Protection for His people:
Psalms 23:4 Even if I walk through a valley of darkness, I will fear no harm, for You are with me.

Isaiah 41:3 For I the Lord, will hold your right hand, saying: fear not, I will help you.

Isaiah 43:2b…walk thru fire and you will not be scorched, thru flames and not be burned.

Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you who obey Him, it may be that you will be sheltered on the Day of the Lord’s anger.

Proverbs 3:25 Do not be afraid when fools are frightened or when destruction overtakes the wicked, for the Lord will be at your side on that Day.

Daniel 3:25 An angel protects the 3 men in the furnace. THEY weren’t taken out of it!

Jeremiah 30:7 How terrible is that Day….yet Jacob [Israel: My people] will come thru it safely.

1 Corinthians 10:13.... God will not test you beyond your powers and when the test comes, He will provide a way out to enable you to endure.

Psalms 9:10 The Lord does not abandon those who seek Him and trust in Him.

2 Peter 2:9 God knows how to rescue the godly from their trials.

Psalms 18:3 I shall call upon the Lord, then I will be made safe.

Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong, all you whose hope is in the Lord.

Psalms 64:10 The righteous rejoice, their refuge in the Lord.

Zechariah 9:15-16 The Lord of hosts will protect His people...On that Day, He will save them, like a flock, for they are precious to Him. Isaiah 61:10

Psalms 37:18-19 The Lord watches over the righteous, when times are bad, they will not be distressed.

Job 22:30 He will deliver the innocent, because their hands are pure.

Psalms 91:1-16 ...He will rescue you, you will not fear the terrors abroad.

Psalms 121:1-8 Our help comes from the Lord, He will guard your life.

Psalms 109:31 The Lord stands at the right hand of the poor and saves them from trials.

Isaiah 51:16 I keep you covered under the shelter of My hand.

Psalms 97:10-12 He keeps His loyal servants safe and rescues them from the wicked.

Jeremiah 17:7-8 Blessed is anyone who trusts in the Lord, they will be like trees by a stream, when the heat comes it has nothing to fear.

Nahum 1:7 The Lord is a sure protection in times of trouble and cares for all those who make Him their refuge.

Psalms 60:4-5 To those who fear the Lord, He will show the way to escape from trouble.

Psalms 37:9 For evildoers will be destroyed, those who trust in the Lord will prosper in the Land.

Isaiah 26:20 On that Day, I will come to your aid.

Daniel 12:1 There will be a time of anguish, but at that time, Your people will be delivered, all those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 ...to give you relief when the Lord Jesus comes in blazing fire.

Joel 3:16 The Lord roars from Zion, the heavens and the earth shudder, but He is a refuge for His people and a defence for Israel.

Isaiah 65:9b My chosen ones will take possession of the land, those who serve Me will live there.

Ecclesiasticus 34:13-17 Those who fear the Lord will live, for their trust in Him can keep them safe. The Lord keeps watch over those who love Him, He is their shield and support, a shelter from the scorching wind and the heat of the sun. He raises their spirits and gives healing, life and blessings. Apoc.

Reference: Revised English Bible.

2 Th 1:7 is about the 2A and the judgment after Armageddon, of unbelievers who survive the Trib. They are the goats in Matt 25:41-46.

You can't prove that believers enter the Trib. Rev 6:4 and Rev 6:15-17 prove that believers don't enter the Trib. Here's another: Rev 9:4 (ESV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

During the Trib, who will be the folks that have the seal of God on their foreheads? Answer: Rev 7:3-4 (ESV): saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from very tribe of the sons of Israel:

In Rev 9:4, only unbelievers and the 144k are on Earth.

What the 144k will do is be very instrumental in the saving of a great multitude ("GM") found in Rev 7:9-17. All the folks that make up the GM are unbelievers who enter the Trib and who come to Christ in the Trib. That's what a "saint" is, in the Trib. They give testimony of Jesus, and, in the 2nd half of the Trib, they are also martyred for refusing the worship the beast. They are all martyred (Rev 12:17 and 13:7,17). Rev 6:10 is the first group of those martyrs under the altar. They are martyrs from the 2nd and 4th seals. Rev 6:11 says there will be a second group ("fellow servants") who will be killed as they were (the first group of martyrs crying out in Rev 6:10). That second group of martyrs is from Rev 12:17 and 13:7,17. All those martyrs are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They appear next in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

You have no way to prove any believer enters the Trib.

 

[keras]

the rapture/resurrection event involves both the dead in Christ and the living in Christ.

The ONLY dead people resurrected when Jesus Returns, will be the martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation. Revelation 20:4 makes that crystal clear.
Any ideas of other Christians rising from the dead then, are false and will not happen.

I looked at your 'chart' and all of the 4 points before Jesus Returns, are provably wrong.
1/ There will be no rapture to heaven, no scripture says that.
2/ Daniel 9:27 does not refer to a Covenant, just a fixed term treaty.
3. There is no false Messianic age. The Anti-Christ 'beast', never claims to be the Messiah.
4/ The Day of the Lord is the Sixth Seal, some years before the AoD.

The completion of our salvation is when our bodies are redeemed into eternal life, everlasting bodies.

Which does not happen until the GWT Judgement, after the Millennium.

 

[keras]

You can't prove that believers enter the Trib

I can and I have proved there will be Christians under persecution during the 42 month period of world Satanic control. Daniel 7:25,revelation 13L7 and as Revelation 12:17 plainly tell us. They are not new converts, during the GT, as they are present when it starts.

You are wrong, your beliefs are confused and in error and you reject the truth when it is presented.

You have no way to prove any believer enters the Trib.

It is you who has no way to prove the rapture.
Every verse the rapture believers; suckers; deluded fools; post - just do not say the Lord will take His people to heaven. Six verses say He won't!