Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The truth in 1 Thess 1:10; is:
We wait for Jesus to Return and we thank Him for protecting us during His wrath against the ungodly peoples.

The rest of your verses have nothing to do with a rapture to heaven. In fact; they count against such an idea.

Nope. 1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture. You are not connecting the dots. 1 Th 1:10 is fulfilled before the FIRST wrath occurs in the Trib. That is the 2nd seal, proven by its extraordinary wars. Wars are a specific form of God's wrath in Ezekiel 14:21. "Delivers us" translates to "snatch away" related to the second usage of "deliverance" in the Bible. Rev 4:1 completes the verses for the pre-Trib rapture, and that is richly proven to be a future event. Rev 4:1 goes straight to Heaven. I am going by Scripture. You are not, proven by your "we wait for Jesus."

 

[keras]

There will be no 'rapture to heaven', the Lord will deliver His people from His wrath by protecting them, Isaiah 43:2

We wait for Your Deliverance, Lord:
Psalms 40:4-11 Happy is the one who puts his trust in the Lord and keeps away from arrogant and deceitful people.
Say to the Lord: Here I am, my desire is to do Your will. Your Law is in my heart and I proclaim God’s faithfulness and His saving power to all the congregation. You Lord, will not withhold Your tender care for me, may Your love and truth forever keep me safe.

Psalms 40:12-17 Now Lord, we are poor and needy, troubles and misfortune assail us from every side and courage fails us. Let all those who seek our downfall be turned back in disgrace. Let all those who think they have got the upper hand, be confounded and put to shame. But let all who seek the truth be jubilant and rejoice in Your saving power, we will forever cry: All glory to the Lord!

Psalms 43:1-5 Uphold our cause, O God, give judgement for Your people against the godless nations, rescue us from those liars and evil men. For we look to You for refuge, why must we wait so long; oppressed by our foes?

Send out Your light and truth to guide us, then we will come to the holy Land, to the place of Your altar and we shall praise our Redeemer with gladsome songs. We will wait patiently for Your deliverance, our Lord and Saviour. Ref: REB.

Every person who desires to do the Lord's will, all those who seek the truth, that is: every true Christian, will be delivered and guided into the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of wrath has cleansed it. Jeremiah 31:8-9, Revelation 6:12-17, + THEN: Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26, +

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There will be no 'rapture to heaven', the Lord will deliver His people from His wrath by protecting them, Isaiah 43:2

We wait for Your Deliverance, Lord:
Psalms 40:4-11 Happy is the one who puts his trust in the Lord and keeps away from arrogant and deceitful people.
Say to the Lord: Here I am, my desire is to do Your will. Your Law is in my heart and I proclaim God’s faithfulness and His saving power to all the congregation. You Lord, will not withhold Your tender care for me, may Your love and truth forever keep me safe.

Psalms 40:12-17 Now Lord, we are poor and needy, troubles and misfortune assail us from every side and courage fails us. Let all those who seek our downfall be turned back in disgrace. Let all those who think they have got the upper hand, be confounded and put to shame. But let all who seek the truth be jubilant and rejoice in Your saving power, we will forever cry: All glory to the Lord!

Psalms 43:1-5 Uphold our cause, O God, give judgement for Your people against the godless nations, rescue us from those liars and evil men. For we look to You for refuge, why must we wait so long; oppressed by our foes?

Send out Your light and truth to guide us, then we will come to the holy Land, to the place of Your altar and we shall praise our Redeemer with gladsome songs. We will wait patiently for Your deliverance, our Lord and Saviour. Ref: REB.

Every person who desires to do the Lord's will, all those who seek the truth, that is: every true Christian, will be delivered and guided into the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of wrath has cleansed it. Jeremiah 31:8-9, Revelation 6:12-17, + THEN: Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26, +

Keras, you are, once again, citing unrelated verses. For example, Isaiah 43:2 is about God leading Israel out of captivity from Egypt. On and on you return with unrelated verses.

Why do you not address the verses I cite? Rev 4:1 is the future rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven. That is not about the NHNE. The NHNE comes to us, on the new Earth. The old Earth passed away. In Rev 4:1 we are taken from the current Earth to Heaven. So, Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven. You can't disprove the pre-Trib rapture from any angle. It's in Scripture to occur shortly before the Trib. You can't shoot down the pre-Trib rapture from any other angle, so you're, once again, seeking OT references that are clearly inapplicable.

You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that seals 1-5 haven't already occurred. You still go right to the 6th seal. It is provable that no believers are on Earth upon the 6th seal. It is provable that no believers are on Earth in Rev 6:4, the 2nd seal. It is provable that we are snatched away from Earth shortly before the Trib, from 1 Th 1:10. I have unassailable proof to back up the pre-Trib rapture. Why do you attack God's word that proves the pre-Trib rapture?

 

[keras]

Keras, you are, once again, citing unrelated verses. For example, Isaiah 43:2 is about God leading Israel out of captivity from Egypt.

When did the Israelites pass thru fire? That Prophecy is unfulfilled and relates to the Lords Promise to protect His people during His Day of fiery wrath.
Isaiah 43, is yet to be fulfilled and certainly does NOT support a rapture.

Why do you not address the verses I cite? Rev 4:1 is the future rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

Because such a silly idea is just false teaching.

You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that seals 1-5 haven't already occurred

But the first five Seals HAVE been open since Jesus Ascended to heaven. Proved by the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

When did the Israelites pass thru fire? That Prophecy is unfulfilled and relates to the Lords Promise to protect His people during His Day of fiery wrath.
Isaiah 43, is yet to be fulfilled and certainly does NOT support a rapture.

Because such a silly idea is just false teaching.

But the first five Seals HAVE been open since Jesus Ascended to heaven. Proved by the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

The Trib is known as Daniel's 70th week. A "week" in Daniel 9 is seven years. The verse above is a summary of the Trib, over seven years. The Trib is seven consecutive years long, with no gap. At the end of those seven years, the 2A will occur.

Show me where I'm wrong.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

When did the Israelites pass thru fire? That Prophecy is unfulfilled and relates to the Lords Promise to protect His people during His Day of fiery wrath.
Isaiah 43, is yet to be fulfilled and certainly does NOT support a rapture.

Because such a silly idea is just false teaching.

But the first five Seals HAVE been open since Jesus Ascended to heaven. Proved by the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

Rev 4:1 is entirely a future event. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos while receiving his vision of Revelation. We know this from Rev 1:1 (ESV): The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Apostle John also attested that it was only one angel who showed him everything he heard and saw in his vision of Revelation. Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Rev 4:1 carries no verbiage that it was fulfilled by John. It's positioned chronologically in Revelation to occur just before the Trib. The Trib won't start until Rev 6:1-2. The chronological position of Rev 4:1 proves it occurs before the Trib. Rev 4:1 is therefore the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

When did the Israelites pass thru fire? That Prophecy is unfulfilled and relates to the Lords Promise to protect His people during His Day of fiery wrath.
Isaiah 43, is yet to be fulfilled and certainly does NOT support a rapture.

Because such a silly idea is just false teaching.

But the first five Seals HAVE been open since Jesus Ascended to heaven. Proved by the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

All of Isaiah 43 has been fulfilled. Verse 2 is about parting the Red Sea for the Israelites being led out of Egypt by Moses. Walking through fire was about the physically and emotionally challenging times ahead, in their long journey back to Israel.

 

[keras]

Show me where I'm wrong.

I have.

Prove me wrong.

I did.

All of Isaiah 43 has been fulfilled. Verse 2 is about parting the Red Sea for the Israelites being led out of Egypt by Moses. Walking through fire was about the physically and emotionally challenging times ahead, in their long journey back to Israel.

This assertion is just a dreamed up false and unbiblical idea, made up to avoid the Prophetic truths of the end times.
WE have some very emotionally and challenging times ahead and 70 +, of the unfulfilled Prophesies; mention fire.

Those who fondly imagine they can avoid any tribulation, are in for a nasty shock.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I have.

I did.

This assertion is just a dreamed up false and unbiblical idea, made up to avoid the Prophetic truths of the end times.
WE have some very emotionally and challenging times ahead and 70 +, of the unfulfilled Prophesies; mention fire.

Those who fondly imagine they can avoid any tribulation, are in for a nasty shock.

If untrue, show me the verses that say “fiery trial” as part of the 21 judgments of God during the Trib. You are still ignoring the context of 1 Peter 4. It’s only about the greatest challenges in the daily life of discipleship. Prove me wrong.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Rev 4:1 is a future event. We know this because apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation. He was always on the island of Patmos when seeing and hearing everything in his vision that was shown to him by one angel. John attests to this in Rev 22:8. It is therefore in the Bible that Rev 4:1 is a future event, being the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Except we know with absolute certainty that John was in the spirit during "the tribulation" on the day of the Lord.
Revelation 1:
9I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.

Let's look at Rev 4:1 and compare it to relevant verses. Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

The "first voice" is the one he heard in Rev 1:10. It doesn't say he blew the trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:52 says "at the last trumpet"
If you're claiming 4:1 is a "pre trib" rapture, then where's the resurrection of the dead that takes place "first"?
Secondly, Jesus makes it pretty clear to me that the resurrection and the judgement happen on the last day.
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:40
For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Th 4:16's "cry of command" and "voice of an archangel" and "trumpet of God" are about Jesus' tremendous trumpet voice. Both verses cite it. They also both cite a cry of command that is richly spelled out in Rev 4:1, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church because Jesus promised in Rev 3:10, "I will keep you from the hour of trial ..."

1 Th 4:16 is the resurrection when the dead are raised and the living changed 1Cor15:52. v17 clearly states "then" those living and remaining after the resurrection "shall be caught up together" at some time in their future.
1 Th 5:10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Also, Romans 14:9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Rev 14:13 "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on"

STRONGS NT 4035: περιλείπω Remain as in 1Th 4:15 and 17
περιλείπω: present passive participle περιλειπόμενος (cf. περί, III. 2); to leave over; passive, to remain over, to survive: 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17. (Aristophanes, Plato, Euripides, Polybius, Herodian; 2 Macc. 1:31.)

In Isaiah and Zechariah, we have the remaining survivors of the day of the Lord
Isaiah 4:
2On that day the Branch of the LORD
will be beautiful and glorious,
and the fruit of the land
will be the pride and glory of Israel’s survivors.
3Whoever remains in Zion
and whoever is left in Jerusalem
will be called holy—
all in Jerusalem who are recorded among the living—
4when the Lord has washed away
the filth of the daughters of Zion
and cleansed the bloodstains from the heart of Jerusalem
by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.


Zechariah 14:
16Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Except we know with absolute certainty that John was in the spirit during "the tribulation" on the day of the Lord.
Revelation 1:
9I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.



The "first voice" is the one he heard in Rev 1:10. It doesn't say he blew the trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:52 says "at the last trumpet"
If you're claiming 4:1 is a "pre trib" rapture, then where's the resurrection of the dead that takes place "first"?
Secondly, Jesus makes it pretty clear to me that the resurrection and the judgement happen on the last day.
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:40
For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.


1 Th 4:16 is the resurrection when the dead are raised and the living changed 1Cor15:52. v17 clearly states "then" those living and remaining after the resurrection "shall be caught up together" at some time in their future.
1 Th 5:10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Also, Romans 14:9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Rev 14:13 "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on"

STRONGS NT 4035: περιλείπω Remain as in 1Th 4:15 and 17
περιλείπω: present passive participle περιλειπόμενος (cf. περί, III. 2); to leave over; passive, to remain over, to survive: 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17. (Aristophanes, Plato, Euripides, Polybius, Herodian; 2 Macc. 1:31.)

In Isaiah and Zechariah, we have the remaining survivors of the day of the Lord
Isaiah 4:
2On that day the Branch of the LORD
will be beautiful and glorious,
and the fruit of the land
will be the pride and glory of Israel’s survivors.
3Whoever remains in Zion
and whoever is left in Jerusalem
will be called holy—
all in Jerusalem who are recorded among the living—
4when the Lord has washed away
the filth of the daughters of Zion
and cleansed the bloodstains from the heart of Jerusalem
by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.


Zechariah 14:
16Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them.

There's one pre-Trib rapture of the Church: Rev 4:1. The other rapture verses, 1 Th 4:16-17, John 14:3, 1 Th 1:10 and 1 Cor 15:52 are all fulfilled upon Rev 4:1.

The last trumpet is not the 7th trumpet. Please read the following (1.5 pages long) that beautifully teaches exactly what "the last trumpet" is. You will find it in 1 Th 4:16. The Last Trump | Learn The Bible | LearnTheBible.org

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Bible versions that say "temptation" in Rev 3:10 are incorrect. The versions that say "hour of trial" are correct.

And what is your basis for saying this? Even if it says "trial" that doesn't mean it's talking about God's wrath. It's talking about people being tested to see where their allegiance lies. There's no reason for anyone to be taken off of the earth for that to take place.

The 7-year Trib is "a week" in Daniel 9:27, and that "week" is about the Tribulation Period that is seven years long.

No, it is not. The 70th week is about Jesus confirming the new covenant and putting an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. Look at the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 that had to be accomplished within the 70 weeks. How could any of those things be accomplished apart from Christ's sacrifice? Such as making reconciliation for iniquity? That isn't possible without His shed blood.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

It says that the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th week and Jesus's death is crucial to fulfilling Daniel 9:24, so Jesus's death has to fall within the 70th week.

Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

In those seven years, God's 21 judgements of wrath, known as the seven seals (Rev 6, Rev 8:1), the seven trumpets (Rev 8:6 through Rev 9 and Rev 11:15), and the seven bowls (Rev 16), are God's wrath that is the "trial" Jesus referred to in Rev 3:10.

The Trib is not about temptations. It's about 21 judgments of God's wrath, and the references cited above prove it. Jesus says in Rev 3:10 that "those who dwell on the earth" will be tried by the hour of trial. The hour of trial is for unbelievers, only. We will kept from the Trib, which means we will not enter it.

You are in error. I see no basis for you to associate God's wrath with Revelation 3:10. You are not doing anything to back that up so far. You're just making unfounded claims.

You are also missing the context Rev 3:11-12. Verse 11 is about what takes place after the pre-Trib rapture.

No, it is not. This is yet another baseless claim that you're making. You seem to be making scripture say whatever you want it to say and trying to relate unrelated scriptures while making related scriptures unrelated.

The crown mentioned is the same crown spoken of in 2 Tim 4:8. Therein, Paul confirms that the Judgment Seat of Christ occurs "on that day," being the day of the pre-Trib rapture. We are in Heaven for the Judgment Seat of Christ. Verse 12 gives every indication of being about the NHNE (New Heaven and New Earth). Verses 11 & 12 are about what occurs after the pre-Trib rapture.

That is false. All people will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, not just believers. And it won't happen as the result of a supposed pre-trib rapture.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

This is not just referring to believers appearing before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. Notice that Paul referred to something that was written relating to every knee bowing and every tongue confessing to God. This is what he was referring to...

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that the one bowing their knees to Him include "all that are incensed against him" and they "shall be ashamed" before Him at that point while giving an account of themselves. We can see in Matthew 25:31-46 also that both believers and unbelievers will stand before Jesus at the same time to give an account of themselves.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

And what is your basis for saying this? Even if it says "trial" that doesn't mean it's talking about God's wrath. It's talking about people being tested to see where their allegiance lies. There's no reason for anyone to be taken off of the earth for that to take place.


No, it is not. The 70th week is about Jesus confirming the new covenant and putting an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. Look at the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 that had to be accomplished within the 70 weeks. How could any of those things be accomplished apart from Christ's sacrifice? Such as making reconciliation for iniquity? That isn't possible without His shed blood.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

It says that the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th week and Jesus's death is crucial to fulfilling Daniel 9:24, so Jesus's death has to fall within the 70th week.


You are in error. I see no basis for you to associate God's wrath with Revelation 3:10. You are not doing anything to back that up so far. You're just making unfounded claims.


No, it is not. This is yet another baseless claim that you're making. You seem to be making scripture say whatever you want it to say and trying to relate unrelated scriptures while making related scriptures unrelated.


That is false. All people will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, not just believers. And it won't happen as the result of a supposed pre-trib rapture.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

This is not just referring to believers appearing before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. Notice that Paul referred to something that was written relating to every knee bowing and every tongue confessing to God. This is what he was referring to...

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that the one bowing their knees to Him include "all that are incensed against him" and they "shall be ashamed" before Him at that point while giving an account of themselves. We can see in Matthew 25:31-46 also that both believers and unbelievers will stand before Jesus at the same time to give an account of themselves.

Do you want me to prove to you that there is a pre-Trib rapture?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There will be no 'rapture to heaven', the Lord will deliver His people from His wrath by protecting them, Isaiah 43:2

We wait for Your Deliverance, Lord:
Psalms 40:4-11 Happy is the one who puts his trust in the Lord and keeps away from arrogant and deceitful people.
Say to the Lord: Here I am, my desire is to do Your will. Your Law is in my heart and I proclaim God’s faithfulness and His saving power to all the congregation. You Lord, will not withhold Your tender care for me, may Your love and truth forever keep me safe.

Psalms 40:12-17 Now Lord, we are poor and needy, troubles and misfortune assail us from every side and courage fails us. Let all those who seek our downfall be turned back in disgrace. Let all those who think they have got the upper hand, be confounded and put to shame. But let all who seek the truth be jubilant and rejoice in Your saving power, we will forever cry: All glory to the Lord!

Psalms 43:1-5 Uphold our cause, O God, give judgement for Your people against the godless nations, rescue us from those liars and evil men. For we look to You for refuge, why must we wait so long; oppressed by our foes?

Send out Your light and truth to guide us, then we will come to the holy Land, to the place of Your altar and we shall praise our Redeemer with gladsome songs. We will wait patiently for Your deliverance, our Lord and Saviour. Ref: REB.

Every person who desires to do the Lord's will, all those who seek the truth, that is: every true Christian, will be delivered and guided into the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of wrath has cleansed it. Jeremiah 31:8-9, Revelation 6:12-17, + THEN: Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26, +

Here's 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:3-4 (NLT): When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

One of God's "dreadful punishments" (war) is in Rev 6:4. All four of God's "dreadful punishments" are in Rev 6:8. The early seals are full of God's wrath. That is the "wrath to come," and the earliest it will come is in Rev 6:4 (simultaneous wars all over the world caused by God).

Therefore, Rev 6:4 is "the wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. It will be Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

What does "delivers us" mean? From Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Deliver: The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatch away"), palat [f;l'P] ("make an escape"), malat [f;l'm] ("to cause to escape"), halas [l'j] (to "draw out"), and yasa [[;v"y] ("to save") fall within the field of meaning describing God's redemptive activity on the part of his people. This usage of deliverance focuses on God's removal of those who are in the midst of trouble or danger.

God will know when the wrath will come to start the Trib. When it's about to come, we believers will be snatched away from Earth. That's what 1 Th 1:10 is about, which simultaneously fulfills 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and Rev 4:1. In greater detail, the "last trump" will sound in 1 Th 4:16. We will be changed into our eternal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and we are then snatched away (1 Th 4:17 and John 14:3) to Heaven (Rev 4:1).

That is proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

And what is your basis for saying this? Even if it says "trial" that doesn't mean it's talking about God's wrath. It's talking about people being tested to see where their allegiance lies. There's no reason for anyone to be taken off of the earth for that to take place.


No, it is not. The 70th week is about Jesus confirming the new covenant and putting an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. Look at the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 that had to be accomplished within the 70 weeks. How could any of those things be accomplished apart from Christ's sacrifice? Such as making reconciliation for iniquity? That isn't possible without His shed blood.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

It says that the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th week and Jesus's death is crucial to fulfilling Daniel 9:24, so Jesus's death has to fall within the 70th week.


You are in error. I see no basis for you to associate God's wrath with Revelation 3:10. You are not doing anything to back that up so far. You're just making unfounded claims.


No, it is not. This is yet another baseless claim that you're making. You seem to be making scripture say whatever you want it to say and trying to relate unrelated scriptures while making related scriptures unrelated.


That is false. All people will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, not just believers. And it won't happen as the result of a supposed pre-trib rapture.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

This is not just referring to believers appearing before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. Notice that Paul referred to something that was written relating to every knee bowing and every tongue confessing to God. This is what he was referring to...

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that the one bowing their knees to Him include "all that are incensed against him" and they "shall be ashamed" before Him at that point while giving an account of themselves. We can see in Matthew 25:31-46 also that both believers and unbelievers will stand before Jesus at the same time to give an account of themselves.

Here's proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:3-4 (NLT): When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

One of God's "dreadful punishments" (war) is in Rev 6:4. All four of God's "dreadful punishments" are in Rev 6:8. The early seals are full of God's wrath. That is the "wrath to come," and the earliest it will come is in Rev 6:4 (simultaneous wars all over the world caused by God).

Therefore, Rev 6:4 is "the wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. It will be Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

What does "delivers us" mean? From Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Deliver: The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatch away"), palat [f;l'P] ("make an escape"), malat [f;l'm] ("to cause to escape"), halas [l'j] (to "draw out"), and yasa [[;v"y] ("to save") fall within the field of meaning describing God's redemptive activity on the part of his people. This usage of deliverance focuses on God's removal of those who are in the midst of trouble or danger.

God will know when the wrath will come to start the Trib. When it's about to come, we believers will be snatched away from Earth. That's what 1 Th 1:10 is about, which simultaneously fulfills 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and Rev 4:1. In greater detail, the "last trump" will sound in 1 Th 4:16. We will be changed into our eternal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and we are then snatched away (1 Th 4:17 and John 14:3) to Heaven (Rev 4:1).

That is proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

And what is your basis for saying this? Even if it says "trial" that doesn't mean it's talking about God's wrath. It's talking about people being tested to see where their allegiance lies. There's no reason for anyone to be taken off of the earth for that to take place.


No, it is not. The 70th week is about Jesus confirming the new covenant and putting an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. Look at the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 that had to be accomplished within the 70 weeks. How could any of those things be accomplished apart from Christ's sacrifice? Such as making reconciliation for iniquity? That isn't possible without His shed blood.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

It says that the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th week and Jesus's death is crucial to fulfilling Daniel 9:24, so Jesus's death has to fall within the 70th week.


You are in error. I see no basis for you to associate God's wrath with Revelation 3:10. You are not doing anything to back that up so far. You're just making unfounded claims.


No, it is not. This is yet another baseless claim that you're making. You seem to be making scripture say whatever you want it to say and trying to relate unrelated scriptures while making related scriptures unrelated.


That is false. All people will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, not just believers. And it won't happen as the result of a supposed pre-trib rapture.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

This is not just referring to believers appearing before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. Notice that Paul referred to something that was written relating to every knee bowing and every tongue confessing to God. This is what he was referring to...

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that the one bowing their knees to Him include "all that are incensed against him" and they "shall be ashamed" before Him at that point while giving an account of themselves. We can see in Matthew 25:31-46 also that both believers and unbelievers will stand before Jesus at the same time to give an account of themselves.

Here's proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:3-4 (NLT): When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

One of God's "dreadful punishments" (war) is in Rev 6:4. All four of God's "dreadful punishments" are in Rev 6:8. The early seals are full of God's wrath. That is the "wrath to come," and the earliest it will come is in Rev 6:4 (simultaneous wars all over the world caused by God).

Therefore, Rev 6:4 is "the wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. It will be Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

What does "delivers us" mean? From Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Deliver: The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatch away"), palat [f;l'P] ("make an escape"), malat [f;l'm] ("to cause to escape"), halas [l'j] (to "draw out"), and yasa [[;v"y] ("to save") fall within the field of meaning describing God's redemptive activity on the part of his people. This usage of deliverance focuses on God's removal of those who are in the midst of trouble or danger.

God will know when the wrath will come to start the Trib. When it's about to come, we believers will be snatched away from Earth. That's what 1 Th 1:10 is about, which simultaneously fulfills 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and Rev 4:1. In greater detail, the "last trump" will sound in 1 Th 4:16. We will be changed into our eternal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and we are then snatched away (1 Th 4:17 and John 14:3) to Heaven (Rev 4:1).

That is proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Except we know with absolute certainty that John was in the spirit during "the tribulation" on the day of the Lord.
Revelation 1:
9I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.



The "first voice" is the one he heard in Rev 1:10. It doesn't say he blew the trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:52 says "at the last trumpet"
If you're claiming 4:1 is a "pre trib" rapture, then where's the resurrection of the dead that takes place "first"?
Secondly, Jesus makes it pretty clear to me that the resurrection and the judgement happen on the last day.
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:40
For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.


1 Th 4:16 is the resurrection when the dead are raised and the living changed 1Cor15:52. v17 clearly states "then" those living and remaining after the resurrection "shall be caught up together" at some time in their future.
1 Th 5:10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Also, Romans 14:9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Rev 14:13 "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on"

STRONGS NT 4035: περιλείπω Remain as in 1Th 4:15 and 17
περιλείπω: present passive participle περιλειπόμενος (cf. περί, III. 2); to leave over; passive, to remain over, to survive: 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17. (Aristophanes, Plato, Euripides, Polybius, Herodian; 2 Macc. 1:31.)

In Isaiah and Zechariah, we have the remaining survivors of the day of the Lord
Isaiah 4:
2On that day the Branch of the LORD
will be beautiful and glorious,
and the fruit of the land
will be the pride and glory of Israel’s survivors.
3Whoever remains in Zion
and whoever is left in Jerusalem
will be called holy—
all in Jerusalem who are recorded among the living—
4when the Lord has washed away
the filth of the daughters of Zion
and cleansed the bloodstains from the heart of Jerusalem
by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.


Zechariah 14:
16Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them.

The rapture verses are fulfilled together because they are about the same rapture.

Here's proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:3-4 (NLT): When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

One of God's "dreadful punishments" (war) is in Rev 6:4. All four of God's "dreadful punishments" are in Rev 6:8. The early seals are full of God's wrath. That is the "wrath to come," and the earliest it will come is in Rev 6:4 (simultaneous wars all over the world caused by God).

Therefore, Rev 6:4 is "the wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. It will be Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

What does "delivers us" mean? From Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Deliver: The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatch away"), palat [f;l'P] ("make an escape"), malat [f;l'm] ("to cause to escape"), halas [l'j] (to "draw out"), and yasa [[;v"y] ("to save") fall within the field of meaning describing God's redemptive activity on the part of his people. This usage of deliverance focuses on God's removal of those who are in the midst of trouble or danger.

God will know when the wrath will come to start the Trib. When it's about to come, we believers will be snatched away from Earth. That's what 1 Th 1:10 is about, which simultaneously fulfills 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and Rev 4:1. In greater detail, the "last trump" will sound in 1 Th 4:16. We will be changed into our eternal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and we are then snatched away (1 Th 4:17 and John 14:3) to Heaven (Rev 4:1).

That is proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[keras]

That is proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

Why don't you go and cultivate beans?
That would be useful, rather than raving on here and making yourself look foolish.
Until a pre-trib believer of a rapture to heaven, can provide a simple, straight forward verse, which states that, then no amount of assumption, guesswork and lengthy posts, will convince me.

I would think most here are heartily sick of your pronouncements and wild assertions.
Just get on with practicing bunny hops and trying to decide whether to keep your arms outstretched , or by your sides, as you zoom upward.

You have managed quite well, so far; to put the theory of a pre-trib rapture, into a very bad light. People would not like to associate with someone as Biblically illiterate as you and willing to twist and misinterpret scripture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Why don't you go and cultivate beans?
That would be useful, rather than raving on here and making yourself look foolish.
Until a pre-trib believer of a rapture to heaven, can provide a simple, straight forward verse, which states that, then no amount of assumption, guesswork and lengthy posts, will convince me.

I would think most here are heartily sick of your pronouncements and wild assertions.
Just get on with practicing bunny hops and trying to decide whether to keep your arms outstretched , or by your sides, as you zoom upward.

You have managed quite well, so far; to put the theory of a pre-trib rapture, into a very bad light. People would not like to associate with someone as Biblically illiterate as you and willing to twist and misinterpret scripture.

When someone sees proof of something, and then denies that proof, what does that make that person? I have supplied biblical proof of the pre-Trib rapture. You don't refute it because you can't refute it. You engage in your criticism. That, Mr. Keras, is childish. Where's your proof that Rev 4:1 is not the pre-Trib rapture of the Church? Where's your proof, Mr. Keras, that believers enter the Trib? You can't legitimately offer proof, because my presentation on 1 Th 1:10 is rock-solid proof of the pre-Trib rapture. You offer no proof, Mr. Keras. You just criticize.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Do you want me to prove to you that there is a pre-Trib rapture?

Yes, that would be nice if you actually exegeted some scripture to show how it can possibly teach a pre-trib rapture. Using verses like Revelation 3:10 and 4:1 is far from convincing. Show me some clear scripture that you don't need to make a bunch of assumptions about that teaches a pre-trib rapture. So far you have come nowhere near doing so. Of course, when I say pre-trib I'm not just talking about trib (tribulation) in terms of God's wrath but in terms of persecution and increased wickedness and such as well, which you haven't said anything about.

But, what I would prefer that you do first is actually address the points I made in post #132. You didn't address anything I said there. I'm not interested in a one way discussion where I address your points but you don't address any of mine.