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Geocentric Early Church Writer Quotes

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David Lamb

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This is where you are wrong, I've showed you the verse.
You showed me a verse from Job, which makes no mention of an iced wall, or even of Antarctica. You seem to interpret Job 38:8 as referring to Antarctica and an ice wall, but why should it? It mentions neither ice, nor walls nor Antarctica. Incidentally I have watched the Byrd video again, and as far as I can see, it mentions a huge iceberg, but not a wall surrounding the whole of Antarctica.
 
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David Lamb

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I doesn't have to.
However, you quoted Job 38:8 apparently to indicate biblical support for your notion of an iced wall surrounding Antarctica, and in answer to me saying that the verse doesn't even mention ice, walls or Antarctica, you reply that it doesn't have to. If it doesn't mention these things, how can you say that it is biblical evidence for them?
 
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Apple Sky

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However, you quoted Job 38:8 apparently to indicate biblical support for your notion of an iced wall surrounding Antarctica, and in answer to me saying that the verse doesn't even mention ice, walls or Antarctica, you reply that it doesn't have to. If it doesn't mention these things, how can you say that it is biblical evidence for them?

You should automatically know.
 
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David Lamb

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You should automatically know.
How? There is no mention stated or even implied of the things you are talking about (immense walls, ice, Antarctica) so how could anybody "automatically know" that the verse (in your opinion) means that there is a huge ice wall around Antarctica?
 
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bbbbbbb

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What very high Antarctica iced walls that circumference the earth? I suppose you think that all those who have explored Antarctica are liars, people like Scott, Amundsen and Edmund Hilary and Vivian Fuchs. They have never mentioned a very high wall of ice surrounding Antarctica. The bible doesn't even mention Antarctica, so I am not sure what the verse you quoted has to do with it. Here it is in context:

“7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 "Or [who] shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth [and] issued from the womb; 9 When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;” (Job 38:7-9 NKJV)

Even if that meant that God shut the sea up with literal doors, doors are not walls, and anyway, there is no mention of Antarctica, just the sea. Is the sea that forms the Bristol Channel limited by literal doors, or high walls? No, of course not. So why should Antarctica have a high wall of ice around it?
Actually, I think he believes that there is a high wall of ice surrounding his flat earth so that the oceans can't drain over the edges. His high wall of ice is called by him "Antarctica". It might just was well be called the North Pole which, of course, is tended by Santa Claus and his elves who ensure that the high wall is maintained in good condition.

Of course, Antarctic is a continent, just like all other continents, as the variety of explorers you mentioned have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.
 
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The apparent paths of the sun easily disprove flat earth theories, and that is based on observation, observable empirical evidence. This is especially true when we consider the differences in what people see in the northern hemisphere compared to what people see in the southern hemisphere on the same days and times of the year. The following two image files are the observable apparent paths of the sun on the autumnal equinox earlier this year, (Sept 22, 2024).

The top image file is the path of the sun as viewed from the northern hemisphere. The bottom image file is the path of the sun as viewed from the southern hemisphere. The two paths of the sun as viewed from north and south locations are opposite to each other on the same day all the way through the day. The sun in the northern hemisphere is tracking across the southern sky while the sun in the southern hemisphere is tracking across the northern sky. This cannot be possible on a flat earth with only one sun circling above the earth: you would need two suns circling in opposite directions for this to be observable on a flat earth.

sept-equinox-northern-hemisphere.png



sept-equinox-southern-hemisphere.png



So unless there is a flat-earth theory that proves we have two suns, one in the northern hemisphere and the other in the southern hemisphere doing the opposite of its counterpart in the north, the theory fails by the observable empirical evidence witnessed every day by billions of people all over the world. The only logical explanation is that the earth is a globe or sphere, (spheroid), rotating on its own axis while traversing an orbit around the sun.
 
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Apple Sky

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The apparent paths of the sun easily disprove flat earth theories, and that is based on observation, observable empirical evidence. This is especially true when we consider the differences in what people see in the northern hemisphere compared to what people see in the southern hemisphere on the same days and times of the year. The following two image files are the observable apparent paths of the sun on the autumnal equinox earlier this year, (Sept 22, 2024).

The top image file is the path of the sun as viewed from the northern hemisphere. The bottom image file is the path of the sun as viewed from the southern hemisphere. The two paths of the sun as viewed from north and south locations are opposite to each other on the same day all the way through the day. The sun in the northern hemisphere is tracking across the southern sky while the sun in the southern hemisphere is tracking across the northern sky. This cannot be possible on a flat earth with only one sun circling above the earth: you would need two suns circling in opposite directions for this to be observable on a flat earth.

View attachment 356097


View attachment 356098


So unless there is a flat-earth theory that proves we have two suns, one in the northern hemisphere and the other in the southern hemisphere doing the opposite of its counterpart in the north, the theory fails by the observable empirical evidence witnessed every day by billions of people all over the world. The only logical explanation is that the earth is a globe or sphere, (spheroid), rotating on its own axis while traversing an orbit around the sun.

NASA and modern astronomy claim that star-trails in the Southern Hemisphere rotate clockwise, while those in the North rotate counter-clockwise and provide this as proof positive of their spinning ball-Earth. In reality, however, the Earth is an extended flat plane and all the stars and other celestial bodies rotate East to West around Polaris, the only non-moving star in the sky situated perfectly in line directly above the North Pole.

 
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Apple Sky

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It might just was well be called the North Pole which, of course, is tended by Santa Claus and his elves who ensure that the high wall is maintained in good condition.

He is a she :) So you still believe in Santa, figures ^_^
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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I just found this site called Scripture Catholic . com that has more Geocentric Early Church Writer Quotes and Geocentric Bible Verses :

 
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trophy33

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While the OT was written in the era (the bronze/iron age) in which the belief in the flat earth was common, the church fathers were living in the era when it was already known that the Earth is not flat. However, they accepted another error of their time - geocentrism.

Only few of the more uneducated among the early church writers would still claim the Earth is flat, notably Lactantius, but their ideas were largely dismissed by the broader Christian community. Lactantius's works were deemed heretical and ignored by most theologians.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Magisterium / History

I'm not Roman Catholic, but this is still very interesting




Following is a brief chronological summary of the historical developments and Magisterial pronouncements in connection with the Church’s teaching on the universe:


1564 – Council of Trent (Session IV, April 8): the Council infallibly teaches that no one could “in matters of faith and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine…interpret the sacred Scriptures…even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.” The Fathers unanimously interpreted the Scriptures as supporting a geocentric cosmology.

1613 – Galileo publishes his Letters on Sunspots in which he praised the Copernican (heliocentric) theory.

1615 – Galileo writes a letter to one of his students, Fr. Benedetto Castelli, proclaiming the truth of Copernicanism, stating that “Scripture…in physical disputes should be reserved to the last place” as an authority for resolving those disputes. Galileo writes a similar letter to Dutchess Christina of Lorraine. Fr. Paolo Antonio Foscarini, a Carmelite friar, also writes a book defending the compatibility of Copernicanism with Scripture.

1615 – On April 12, Robert Cardinal Bellarmine (a saint and Doctor of the Church) writes a letter to Fr. Foscarini, advising him that Copernicanism is contrary to Scripture.

The following is list of Cardinal Bellarmine’s most salient quotes:

1. “to affirm that the sun really is fixed in the center of the heavens…and the earth… revolves with great speed around the sun, is a very dangerous thing…by injuring our holy faith and rendering the Holy Scriptures false.

2. “the Council (of Trent) prohibits expounding the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers. And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining (ad litteram) that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the earth, and that the earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the center of the universe. Now consider whether the Church could encourage giving to Scripture a sense contrary to the holy Fathers and all the Latin and Greek commentators.”

3. “Nor may it be answered that this is not a matter of faith…It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the mouths of the prophets and apostles.”

4. “If there were a true demonstration that the sun was in the center of the universe…and that the sun did not travel around the earth, but the earth circled around the sun, then it would be necessary to proceed with great caution in explaining the passages of Scripture which seemed contrary…But I do not believe that there is any such demonstration.”

5. “I add the words ‘the sun also riseth and the sun goeth down, and hasteneth to the place where he ariseth, etc.’ were those of Solomon, who not only spoke by divine inspiration but was a man wise above all others and most learned in human sciences and in the knowledge of all created things, and his wisdom was from God. Thus it is not too likely that he would affirm something which was contrary to a truth either already demonstrated, or likely to be demonstrated.”

1616 – On March 5, the Congregation of the Index condemns all writings which treated Copernicanism as anything but an unproven hypothesis. The Congregation declared that such a theory was “false and contrary to Holy Scripture, which teaches the motion of the earth and the immobility of the sun, and which is taught by Nicolas Copernicus in De revolutiionibus orbium caelestium…being spread by… Father Paolo Antonio Foscarini…Therefore, so that this opinion may not spread any further to the prejudice of Catholic truth, it decrees that the said… De revolutiionibus orbium caelestium..be suspended until corrected; but that the book of the Carmelite Father, Paolo Foscarini, be prohibited and condemned.” Pope Paul V presided at this Congregation and, while his name is not on the decree, approved and ordered the decree as supreme teacher of the Church.

1632 – Galileo publishes the book Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems in which he openly and enthusiastically advocated the Copernican system and ridiculed the geocentric system. This publication was in direct conflict with the Council of Trent’s teaching that one could not hold a position contrary to the unanimity of the Fathers, Cardinal Bellarmine’s letter holding the Copernican theory contrary to Scripture, and the Congregation of the Index’s ban on all books that taught the Copernican theory.

1633 – On June 22, the Holy Office formally condemns Galileo for heresy: “We say, pronounce, sentence and declare that you, the said Galileo…have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine which is false and contrary to the Sacred and Divine Scriptures, that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the earth moves and is not the center of the world…after it has been declared and defined as contrary to Holy Scripture…From which we are content that you be absolved, provided that…you abjure, curse, and detest before us the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church.” Pope Urban VIII took full responsibility for the condemnation of Galileo by enforcing “in forma communi” the Congregation’s prohibitions against books holding the Copernican system as truth.

1633 – Galileo signs a statement which reads “with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith I abjure, curse and detest the aforesaid errors and heresies and generally every other error, heresy and sect whatsoever contrary to the Holy Church…but, should I know any heretic or person suspected of heresy, I will denounce him to the Holy Office or to the inquisitor or Ordinary of the place where I may be…” 1664 – Pope Alexander VII issues Speculatore Domus Israel in which he solemnly sanctioned the condemnation of all books affirming the earth’s movement and the sun’s stability. Pope Alexander VII published a new official Index which included the Congregations prohibitions from 1596 to 1664. The pope declared “We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.”

1758 – Pope Benedict XIV removes Copernicus’ book from the Index, after editors removed nine sentences which taught that heliocentrism was a certainty. This was consistent with the Congregation’s decree in 1616 that the book would be banned until “corrected.” However, the Church’s condemnations of Copernicanism on the grounds that its teachings are heretical and contrary to Scripture is not (and never has been) overturned.

1870 – The First Vatican Council, Canons and Decrees, Chapter III, infallibly declares that “the Church, which together with the apostolic office of teaching, has received a charge to guard the deposit of faith, derives from God the right and duty of proscribing false science, lest any should be deceived by philosophy and vain deceit. Therefore all faithful Christians are not only forbidden to defend as legitimate conclusions of science such opinions as are known to be contrary to the doctrines of the faith, especially if they have been condemned by the Church, but are altogether bound to account them as errors which put on the fallacious appearance of truth.” The Council also affirms the inerrancy of Scripture by dogmatically stating: “These books the church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed to the church.” Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, chapter 2, paragraph 7, 1870.

1885 – Father William Roberts publishes his book The Pontifical Decrees Against the Doctrine of the Earth’s Movement. In this book, Fr. Roberts presents a strong case for the position that the Church’s condemnation of heliocentrism is infallible. He concludes: (1) Alexander VIII’s Speculatores was a papal act of supreme authority by which the pope, in the face of the whole Church, confirmed and approved the decrees with his Apostolic authority, and made himself responsible for their publication, that heliocentrism was false; (2) heliocentrism was false because the Church declared it a heresy, and whoever says an opinion is heresy ipso facto says that the contradictory of that opinion has been revealed by God with sufficient certainty to oblige a Catholic to accept it by an act of divine faith; and, (3) infallible teachings, even those ex-cathedra, do not generally generate any fresh obligation of faith, but protect and vindicate one that already exists.

1893 – Pope Leo XIII issues Providentissimus Deus which affirms the teaching of the Council of Trent that the Scriptures are inerrant in all matters written, not just matters relating to salvation. The pope states “But it is absolutely wrong and forbidden either to narrow its inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture or to admit that the sacred writer has erred…For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Spirit; and so far is it from being impossible that any error can coexist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church” (No. 20).

1907 – On July 3, Pope Pius X issues the encyclical Lamentabili Sane which condemned the errors of the modernists. In connection with creation, science and the inerrancy of Scripture, the following errors, inter alia, were expressly condemned: -Since the deposit of Faith contains only revealed truths, the Church has no right to pass judgment on the assertions of the human sciences (no. 5). -They are free from all blame who treat lightly the condemnations passed by the Sacred Congregation of the Index or by the Roman Congregations (no. 8). -Divine inspiration does not extend to all of Sacred Scriptures so that it renders its parts, each and every one, free from every error (no. 11). -Scientific progress demands that the concepts of Christian doctrine concerning God, creation, revelation, the Person of the Incarnate Word, and Redemption be re-adjusted (no. 64).

1920 – On September 15, Pope Benedict XV issues Spiritus Paraclitus in which he likewise affirms the teaching of the Council of Trent, the First Vatican Council, and Lamentabili Sane on the inerrancy of the Scriptures. The pope states “by these precepts and limits [set by the Fathers of the Church]…wish, indeed, that inspiration itself pertain to all ideas, rather even to the individual words of the Bible…” The pope condemns contrary opinions by stating “For their belief is that that only which concerns religion is intended and is taught by God in the Scriptures; but that the rest, which pertains to the profane disciplines…is left to the feebleness of the writer…But how rashly, how falsely this is affirmed.”

1950 – On August 12, Pope Pius XII issues the encyclical Humani Generis which addressed false opinions that were threatening to undermine Catholic doctrine. The pope, in echoing St. Augustine and Providentissimus Deus, declared that the modern exegete’s desire to depart from a literal interpretation of Scripture in favor of a non-literal interpretation was foreign to Catholic teaching: “Further, according to their fictitious opinions, the literal sense of Holy Scripture and its explanation, carefully worked out under the Church’s vigilance by so many great exegetes, should yield now to a new exegesis, which they are pleased to call symbolic or spiritual.” (no. 23). “Everyone sees how foreign all this is to the principles and norms of interpretation rightly fixed by our predecessors of happy memory, Leo XIII in his Encyclical Providentissimus Deus, and Benedict XV in the Encyclical Spiritus Paraclitus, as also by Ourselves in the Encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu.” (no. 24).

1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church – paragraph 105 says “God is the author of Sacred Scripture. The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and New Testament, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.” (Emphasis added.)



What is the conclusion? Heliocentrism cannot be taught as a certainty.
 
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Strong in Him

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How's about you read the Bible properly & understand it & stop saying everything is poetic, don't you know there is truth in poetry ?
Ok, skip reading the Bible; try reading.

Where did I say anything about these verses being poetry? I said that you shouldn't take random verses out of context.
You quoted, "there is nothing new under the sun." The full verse is,
Ecclesiastes 1:9
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
The author is saying that everything is meaningless. That people come and go, live and die yet the earth continues; that if people do things they will do them again. He is not saying that there can never be new inventions or discoveries; everything has to stay the same.

The next verse, or part of a verse, that you quoted was "as it was in the days of Noah". This comes from Matthew 24 where Jesus is prophesying the destruction of the temple and also talking about end times. "As it was in the days of Noah" refers to the people ignoring Noah's warning about God's judgement, and continuing in their sin. It is explained in the next verse, Matthew 24:38 - "FOR in the days of Noah people were eating and drinking ...." etc.

These are 2 different verses written/said by 2 different people at 2 different times. You are trying to make both of them, together, "prove" your point.
It doesn't work.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Things to consider when reading the Fathers regarding the earth and sun:


1) The Fathers never say the earth moves, except at the end of time.

2) The Fathers always say the earth is at rest at the center of the universe.

3) The Fathers never say the sun is the center of the universe.

4) The Fathers never say the sun does not move around the earth, even in their scientific analysis of the cosmos.

5) The Fathers always say the earth is the center of the universe.

6) The Fathers always say the sun moves as the moon moves.

7) The Fathers recognize that some of the Greeks held that the earth moves and rotates, but they do not accept that teaching.

8) The Fathers accept the Chaldean, Egyptian and Greek teaching that the earth is at the center of the universe and does not move.

9) The Fathers hold that the earth was created first, by itself, and only afterward the sun, moon and stars.

10) The Fathers hold that light was created after the earth, but that this light preceded the light of the sun and stars.
 
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daq

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NASA and modern astronomy claim that star-trails in the Southern Hemisphere rotate clockwise, while those in the North rotate counter-clockwise and provide this as proof positive of their spinning ball-Earth. In reality, however, the Earth is an extended flat plane and all the stars and other celestial bodies rotate East to West around Polaris, the only non-moving star in the sky situated perfectly in line directly above the North Pole.


How is that relevant to the apparent paths of the sun and what people upon the earth in both hemispheres see the sun apparently doing on any given day? Moreover there is a third category: those who live on the equator, and on the equinoxes they see the sun rising due east, passing directly overhead throughout the day, (to the point that even shadows at solar noon disappear), and setting due west. They see the sun move in a straight line across the sky directly above, which on a flat earth would necessarily be a straight line across the supposed map of a flat earth, which strongly suggests that maybe even three suns are at play in the flat earth theories. This is observable empirical evidence which true science cannot ignore and does not ignore.

The evidence witnessed by the third group, those who live on the equator, also strongly suggests that the flat earth crowd early on simply started by taking an Azimuthal map of the earth which they then attempted to use to prove flat earth theories. An Azimuthal world map is a projection of the globe onto a flat geometric plane in order to produce a flat map of the spherical earth, which forces Antarctica to be spread out around the outer perimeter, which could possibly be mistaken for a so-called ice wall if one does not realize he or she is looking at a projection of the spherical earth as seen from the north pole at the center of the map. The so-called ice wall only truly exists on Azimuthal maps of the spherical earth. There may be ice cliffs in many places surrounding Antarctica but even so it is a continent surrounded by water, not a border surrounding a flat earth.
 
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Apple Sky

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No doubt. But they didn't know about DNA, heart transplants or the other things that I mentioned.
They didn't know about those things even 100 years ago, never mind 5 or 6 thousand.
But they did know about air travel.

a hieroglyphic.jpg


The 3,000-year-old hieroglyphs found in Seti I's temple in Abydos, Egypt, are said to depict nothing less than a helicopter, plane and futuristic aircraft among the usual insects, symbols and snakes.
 
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trophy33

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But they did know about air travel.

View attachment 356117

The 3,000-year-old hieroglyphs found in Seti I's temple in Abydos, Egypt, are said to depict nothing less than a helicopter, plane and futuristic aircraft among the usual insects, symbols and snakes.
Do yourself a favor and google it more. You just fell for another nonsense, because you do not verify your sources and you cannot recognize which are realistic and which are not.

 
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Strong in Him

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But they did know about air travel.
1) I doubt it. Don't you think that Jesus, Paul and the Apostles would rather have zoomed off somewhere in a plane, instead of walking?
2) We can draw pictures of UFOs and what we think transport of the future may be like - it doesn't mean we KNOW about those things.
3) They didn't know about DNA, heart transplants and so on; things that are commonplace to us but which would have been completely beyond their imaginations.
 
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Apple Sky

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1) I doubt it. Don't you think that Jesus, Paul and the Apostles would rather have zoomed off somewhere in a plane, instead of walking?
2) We can draw pictures of UFOs and what we think transport of the future may be like - it doesn't mean we KNOW about those things.
3) They didn't know about DNA, heart transplants and so on; things that are commonplace to us but which would have been completely beyond their imaginations.

Yep, you make a good few points here - Sorry my bad.
 
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