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Signs of the Times

DennisF

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Do a little studying on how "Rapture" was derived from the Greek word 'harpazo' [snatched up, caught up]. Or is that no such word?

My eschatology and hermeneutics are my own and not subject to argument.
This word "rapture" (harpazo) has various connotations in Greek, so I have read, but the seemingly dominant picture in the minds of those who make it a dominant part of their eschatology is something like in these Hal-Lindsey-esque movies where the chosen magically disappear, propelled upward in a way reminiscent of the Maharesh Mahesh Yogi and also the children's illustrated Bible story books of Jesus's levitation into heaven like an Eastern guru. (The text by Luke says that he "was taken up". The conveyance is not described; maybe it was like that of Elijah, a rocketship - I mean, a "fiery vehicle".)

My point is not to ridicule your particular understanding of harpazo, whatever it is; the word is, after all, in scripture and must be taken seriously. But what mental picture are we to attach to it? That is the crux of the problem, it appears. How do you deal with it?
 
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Jipsah

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(The text by Luke says that he "was taken up". The conveyance is not described; maybe it was like that of Elijah, a rocketship - I mean, a "fiery vehicle".)
Spacemen and flying saucers seem to loom large in your theology. There seems to be a lot of that going around these days.
 
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Jipsah

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If it suits you better, substitute for "ETs" words used in Bible translations like "angels", "cherubim", "nephilim", etc.
Nope, that doesn't work. Angels are angels, as are cherumbim, seraphim, etc. Nephilim are giants, who you, to support your doctrinal presuppositions, believe are "half angels" although Scripture says no such thing. For the sake of clarity, if in fact you consider clarity desirable, just call angels "angels", and giants either "giants", "half giants", or some such.

In addition, there is no Scriptural basis for believing that angels are of ET (extra terrestrial) origin, or where they may have originated at all. In the case of giants, there's solid reason for believing that they're certainly of terrestrial origin, which makes calling them "ETs" simply wrong.

"ET", on the other hand, is generally used to refer to the idea of physical life forms originating somewhere other than the earth. If you're talking about spacemen, they're presumably physical beings in the same sense as human beings, not angels. In literature, examples of ETs (aka "aliens") are Vulcans, Martians, Klingons, Moonmen, Minbari, "Bugs", Hnau, Eewoks, Barsomians,and so forth. I'll generically refer to them as spacemen.
I don't find any conceptual difference between the meanings of these biblical words and the contemporary use of the word "ET".
As I have just pointed out, there certainly is.
Do you suppose that angels could not be ETs?
I doubt that angels are bound by the same space-time constraints as physical beings, and see no Scriptural basis for believing that calling them "extra terrestrial" is appropriate at all.

This is beside the point of the existence of ETs (angels).
Again, not at all the same thing.
I am not given to such speculation.
As far as I can see, you've simply declared your own speculation to be fact, with no particular reason other than that it's what you believe.
Scripture is clear in talking about "the Devil and his angels".
In what respect? That they drive around in flying saucers, tear up grain fields, and butcher cattle?
Do some Bible research.
If you could be so kind, could you gibe me a starting point by sharing some references where the Bible indicates that "ETs" and "angels" (good or bad) are the same critters.

What makes you think that "angels and demons" are not "from other planets"?
What makes tyou believe that they are? Could I get chapter and verse on that, if only to facilitate my biblical research?
Presumption on your part. If you have a case to make against the existence of ETs then make it.
I have no case either for or against. No evidence is no evidence; and claims that ETs (not angels, mind you) exist are as arbitrary as claims that they don't exist. Pick a position and run with it; you have a 50-50 chance of being right.

In the case of angels and giants, we believe that they exist, or existed, on the testimony of Scripture. No such evidence exists for spacemen.
So far you are merely scoffing.
Some positions deserve nothing else.
You're not withholding judgement; in the previous statement you positively denied the existence of ETs.
Nope, go back and read it again. There is no evidence pro or con. When an ET/spaceman (again, not an angel or demon, now, I refuse to play semantic games with folks who have to resort to them to make their dubious "points") shows up, or we get other empirical evidence that they're real and not imaginary, then I'll change my opinion. Until then, a definitive engineer's "I Don't Know" (engineers aren't encouraged to make stuff up).
Is this your best argument you can make against the existence of ETs?
See above. You're gonna need a different strawman to beat.
There is much more than that you've never seen!
Like a 5 sided triangle. <Laugh>
Do you ever read the Bible? Genesis 6?
Hmmm... I do seem to vaguely remember that. Something about women marrying "Sons of God", and givng birth to giants, right? And your lot have decided that the Sons of God were bad angels, and thus their offspring would be bad giants. The problem is there there's nothing in Scripture that shows that angels, good or bad, can sire children. "Oh, but angels eat, and pass as human, and they're magic, so they can do anything!" That, of course. is ad hoc rubbish made up to try and support a doctrine made up a priori. In other words, an "interpretation"of Scripture contrived to "spirituralize" something it doesn't say at all. It's the hallmark of culty eisegesis.
The scriptures on multiple occasions have humanoids appear - to Abraham, to Peter in prison, to Daniel along the canal.
Well there you have it, then! "If they look like people, they can father kids, move along now..." Right.
Doesn't it occur to you that if these beings are morphologically so similar to human beings that they are called that in scripture that they might just be genetically compatible?
It occurs to me that "might" is a homophone for "mite", and that mites grow on chickens. Same kind of "logic", isn't it?
Omniscience is an "infinity-word" from Greek philosophy, not from the Hebrew way of thinking found in scripture.
OK, so you don't believe that God is omniscient. I guess that keeps Him from meddling in your business unnecesssarily, then.
"Experiment" is the wrong word. When we do product design in engineering, we are not merely "experimenting". Try a different word.
OK, when I was designing products, we called it "design testing". (Followed by alpha testing, followed by beta testing, followed by limited release, followed by general release.) But then my colleagues and I, while tolerably brainy, weren't omniscient, in a Greek sense or any other. God, on the other hand, knows everything, in a Greek sense, or a Hebrew sense, or an engineering sense, or what have you. He is, like, ya know, God. He designed the whole shooting match, right?

BTW, don't bother trying to school me when it comes to product engineering. You'd be better served trying to teach your grandmother to boil eggs
Get lost.
Nah, I reckon somebody needs to hang around here and try to keep you honest.
 
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DennisF

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Nope, that doesn't work. Angels are angels, as are cherumbim, seraphim, etc. Nephilim are giants,
Your statements of tautologies are definitionally vacuous. You're saying nothing. What is your definition of an angel? The word must trigger some meaning in your mind.
who you, to support your doctrinal presuppositions, believe are "half angels" although Scripture says no such thing.
Genesis 6 says that the "sons of the elohim" bred with human women. That results in half-breeds of gods and humans. If you do not want to call gods angels, I can accept that, but both fit my definition of ETs.

I am well aware of the popular use of "ET" nowadays, and it can take on a wide range of meanings, so I can appreciate your caution in the use of the word. To me an ET is a higher intelligence who comes here from Out There. Gods and angels would be in that category because gods are in the heavens (see for instance Psalms 82) as are angels.
For the sake of clarity, if in fact you consider clarity desirable, just call angels "angels", and giants either "giants", "half giants", or some such.

In addition, there is no Scriptural basis for believing that angels are of ET (extra terrestrial) origin, or where they may have originated at all. In the case of giants, there's solid reason for believing that they're certainly of terrestrial origin, which makes calling them "ETs" simply wrong.
There is. Angels in scripture are often associated with "heaven" (shamayim, ouranos) or coming from it which to us is outer space. If you do not associate the heavens with (in part) outer space, then we should have a discussion about Bible World, the dualistic reality from ours that people sometimes put the Bible in. I get the impression thus far that you are not a dualist. If not, then the heavens correspond to something we have a name for in 21st century English, like the skies, outer-space, eternity.
"ET", on the other hand, is generally used to refer to the idea of physical life forms originating somewhere other than the earth. If you're talking about spacemen, they're presumably physical beings in the same sense as human beings, not angels. In literature, examples of ETs (aka "aliens") are Vulcans, Martians, Klingons, Moonmen, Minbari, "Bugs", Hnau, Eewoks, Barsomians,and so forth. I'll generically refer to them as spacemen.
"Men" are humans. ETs are not necessarily human any more than Vulcans from Star Trek are human.
As I have just pointed out, there certainly is.

I doubt that angels are bound by the same space-time constraints as physical beings,
That is your assumption. Angels are not physical?
and see no Scriptural basis for believing that calling them "extra terrestrial" is appropriate at all.
Where do the shepherds in the field encounter the angels with the message of Jesus's birth? On the ground or in the ouranos? The OT has multiple examples. Try the book of Revelation. Angels in the heavens is a common occurrence there.
Again, not at all the same thing.

As far as I can see, you've simply declared your own speculation to be fact, with no particular reason other than that it's what you believe.
I am calling any higher beings, whether they are called gods or angels, as ETs because none are known to originate here on earth. And in scripture, they appear in connection with the skies.
In what respect? That they drive around in flying saucers, tear up grain fields, and butcher cattle?
You are letting the popular imagery of ETs control your imagination.
If you could be so kind, could you gi[v]e me a starting point by sharing some references where the Bible indicates that "ETs" and "angels" (good or bad) are the same critters.
See above. "ET" is not a word in the Bible but can be inferred in various cases by the context of where the said beings come from. If you can do Bible study at all, you will find them. They are not hard to find.
What makes you believe that they are? Could I get chapter and verse on that, if only to facilitate my biblical research?

I have no case either for or against. No evidence is no evidence; and claims that ETs (not angels, mind you) exist are as arbitrary as claims that they don't exist. Pick a position and run with it; you have a 50-50 chance of being right.

In the case of angels and giants, we believe that they exist, or existed, on the testimony of Scripture. No such evidence exists for spacemen.
ETs not "spacemen". Another example: Jesus is an ET, unless you suppose he is hanging around somewhere in the troposphere. He ascended and is no longer here on earth. So he is extra terrestrial.
Some positions deserve nothing else.

Nope, go back and read it again. There is no evidence pro or con. When an ET/spaceman (again, not an angel or demon, now, I refuse to play semantic games with folks who have to resort to them to make their dubious "points") shows up, or we get other empirical evidence that they're real and not imaginary, then I'll change my opinion.
Have you looked for any? Where do you suppose the heavens are as referred to in both OT and NT? The troposphere? Bible World?
As for UFOlogy and ETs that have come into popular consciousness over the last century, the question is whether angels are here on earth. By my definition of ET, if angels are here, they would be ETs.
Until then, a definitive engineer's "I Don't Know" (engineers aren't encouraged to make stuff up).
So you are an engineer?
See above. You're gonna need a different strawman to beat.

Like a 5 sided triangle. <Laugh>

Hmmm... I do seem to vaguely remember that. Something about women marrying "Sons of God", and givng birth to giants, right? And your lot have decided that the Sons of God were bad angels, and thus their offspring would be bad giants. The problem is there there's nothing in Scripture that shows that angels, good or bad, can sire children.
Who do you think the "sons of God" were?
"Oh, but angels eat, and pass as human, and they're magic, so they can do anything!" That, of course. is ad hoc rubbish made up to try and support a doctrine made up a priori. In other words, an "interpretation"of Scripture contrived to "spirituralize" something it doesn't say at all. It's the hallmark of culty eisegesis.
We agree on most of that. They do eat. Your homework assignment is to find an example. Hint: do a keyword search on Abraham.
Well there you have it, then! "If they look like people, they can father kids, move along now..." Right.

It occurs to me that "might" is a homophone for "mite", and that mites grow on chickens. Same kind of "logic", isn't it?
No. If you are an engineer then you should know the importance of defining the key words used in a conversation. I have yet to see you define what you think the word "angel" means in scripture.
OK, so you don't believe that God is omniscient. I guess that keeps Him from meddling in your business unnecesssarily, then.
Omni-x words come from Greek philosophy, not scripture. If you object to ET not being in scripture then you should also object to omni-x as not being scriptural. Do you believe God reveals to us in scripture anything that we cannot conceptualize, even if we know what it means?
OK, when I was designing products, we called it "design testing". (Followed by alpha testing, followed by beta testing, followed by limited release, followed by general release.) But then my colleagues and I, while tolerably brainy, weren't omniscient, in a Greek sense or any other.
I don't know of any other. Omni-x comes from the Greek language.
God, on the other hand, knows everything, in a Greek sense, or a Hebrew sense, or an engineering sense, or what have you. He is, like, ya know, God. He designed the whole shooting match, right?
When you start invoking infinity in a scriptural context, you are ripe for becoming embroiled in hopeless arguments with atheists over logical impossibilities. It is better to think through the logic of infinity as applied to scripture, and even better, to come to understand that the Hebrew mind-set is concrete and not infinity-oriented.
BTW, don't bother trying to school me when it comes to product engineering. You'd be better served trying to teach your grandmother to boil eggs,
Are you Russian? That's a Russian saying.
What is your product engineering experience? Have you considered the outside chance that I might be more experienced (and maybe even more knowledgeable!) than you? I am not going to brag but I am interested in what area of engineering you have been laboring in.
Nah, I reckon somebody needs to hang around here and try to keep you honest.
Good that you came along!
 
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Barraco

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Quote Dennis1209 - An interesting side note: The Bible states the Nephilim were on the earth prior to the flood, and after that! Could it be the “sons of God” (fallen Angels) came back and restarted the whole process again to corrupt the bloodline of Christ? Or an interesting study about Noah's wicked son Ham, that his wife may have been corrupted with the corrupt Nephilim gene?


I think the scripture is clear on this one , it says: There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them.

Looks like it was a repeat performance.
I find it interesting that the first modern UFO sightings occurred less than a year before Israel became a nation. The war in heaven must have ended before 1947 with Satan and his angels being cast down to earth. The war in heaven was based on the supposition that the people of Israel failed to keep God’s Law and therefore deserved the curse of the Law. Something happened that released Israel from that burden.

IMO, it was the suffering of the Armenian Christians at the hands of the Young Turks during World War I. They loved not their lives unto death. The terms and conditions for peace after WWI was the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire into mandates, of which the mandate for Palestine went to Great Britain. Revelation 12:13 says the dragon persecuted the woman (Zion) when he realized he had been cast down. I interpret that to be the Holocaust during WWII.

The woman then flew to the wilderness on eagles wings, a reference to when Israel came out of captivity in Egypt and was nourished in the wilderness on their way to the promised land (Exodus 19:4). IMO, this was the exodus of the Jews from Europe and the Middle East and settling into their own land Israel. There was even a rescue operation from Yemen called Operation On Wings of Eagles.

Then Revelation 12:15 showed the serpent spewing out a river from its mouth to try to sweep the woman away with a flood. I believe that to be happening before our very eyes and having started on October 7th, 2023 during a Hamas massacre called Operation Al Aqsa Flood. Since then, people across the world have been buying the lies of the serpent and chanting the genocidal slogan with him, “From the RIVER to the sea…”

Revelation 12:16 says the earth will open its mouth and swallow the river the serpent spewed out. I don’t know what that will be, but it could be a literal earthquake. I’m open to other interpretations.

Thoughts?
 
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DennisF

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I find it interesting that the first modern UFO sightings occurred less than a year before Israel became a nation. The war in heaven must have ended before 1947 with Satan and his angels being cast down to earth. The war in heaven was based on the supposition that the people of Israel failed to keep God’s Law and therefore deserved the curse of the Law. Something happened that released Israel from that burden.
While it is true that the UFO (now UAP - same thing!) topic came into the public consciousness with the Roswell event, there had been incidents prior to 1948. Some would argue that they had been occurring for centuries, though the key difference between Then and Now is that we have ways of sensing and recording unusual phenomena made possible by electronics.
IMO, it was the suffering of the Armenian Christians at the hands of the Young Turks during World War I. They loved not their lives unto death. The terms and conditions for peace after WWI was the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire into mandates, of which the mandate for Palestine went to Great Britain. Revelation 12:13 says the dragon persecuted the woman (Zion) when he realized he had been cast down. I interpret that to be the Holocaust during WWII.
The eschatological quest is for the right chronology. You are working in a futurist framework. In a historicist framework, the fifth seal of Revelation 6 occurred throughout the Middle ages under the restored Roman empire - the iron mixed with clay of Nebucadnezzar's statue.
The woman then flew to the wilderness on eagles wings, a reference to when Israel came out of captivity in Egypt and was nourished in the wilderness on their way to the promised land (Exodus 19:4).
Possibly, but this occurs in Rev. 12 right after some astronomical (back then, astrological, though not distorted by paganism) signs followed by the birth of (who else but) Jesus. Until recent times, these signs were not meaningful, but nowadays with the heavens modeled by computer programs, the date associated with the signs in the Gregorian calendar is September 11, 3 BC (Backwards Counting). That fits the time interval during which Jesus could have been born - between 6 and 2 BC - based on extrabiblical records aligned with the same events in the NT account. This is also the time of year of the Trumpets Festival. Blown trumpets signified the appearance of the king in ancient times (including Israel) and this coincides with the birth of the new king, Jesus von Nazareth.
IMO, this was the exodus of the Jews from Europe and the Middle East and settling into their own land Israel. There was even a rescue operation from Yemen called Operation On Wings of Eagles.
This brings up an antecedent question of who the Jews are. It is popularly assumed that Jew = Israelite, or at least Jew = Judahite. I address this at length in Eschatology Note # 2 in a reply elsewhere in this thread.
Then Revelation 12:15 showed the serpent spewing out a river from its mouth to try to sweep the woman away with a flood. I believe that to be happening before our very eyes and having started on October 7th, 2023 during a Hamas massacre called Operation Al Aqsa Flood. Since then, people across the world have been buying the lies of the serpent and chanting the genocidal slogan with him, “From the RIVER to the sea…”
Or that is the Vatican persecution of Christians who refuse to come under its rule in the Middle Ages.
Revelation 12:16 says the earth will open its mouth and swallow the river the serpent spewed out. I don’t know what that will be, but it could be a literal earthquake. I’m open to other interpretations.
Not an easy one, but sea or river often refers to people, to a population. Satan might be seen as having driven the Israelite population out of the Mideast to the West, where there was plenty of unpopulated land to receive them.
Thoughts?
 
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Jipsah

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I'm becoming more convinced that “galactic aliens” will figure into the falling away and one world religion.
Even though at present "galactic aliens" are purely ficititious, with litle of no reason to think they'll; ever be anything else?
There are thousands of years of UFO sightings
UFOs being flying things that people see but can't identify. Upon investigation, about 90%, prove to be boringly normal stuff, mostly airplanes. The remaining 10% or so there's not enough data to identify at all. Those are your actual "UFOs". There is no reason at all to believe that they are anything other than other identifable stuff that simply wasn't seen clearly. To believe, without evidence, that they're space aliens, demons, ghosts, or any other mostly imaginary "other" is ridiculous.
but this generation is seeing and reporting a massive increase of unexplained extraterrestrial phenomenon.
I'm sorry, but you're going to have to define "extraterrestrial phenomena". If it means "if we don't know what it is then it must be either spacemen or demons" then that's simple rubbish.

The very nature and history of the phenomenon, it bears the evidence of a huge delusion.
A self delusion, in point of fact. Why we insist on imagining that it we can't identify something we see that it must be some spooky "other". That's a mode of thought more appropriate to preliterate savages huddled around a camp fire than presumably rational people.
I've always been an eschatology buff
And sad to say, much of what passes for "eschatology" now is superstitious drivel.
and as “the signs of the times” are exponentially unfolding right before our eyes, I'm studying scripture and end-time prophesy like never before. Anxiously awaiting the very near harpazo (rapture) that can happen at any moment.
Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Our Lord will return when it is His good pleasure to do so.
A few generations ago who could have imagined what terrestrial force or device could accomplish such devastation? Not to mention bar codes, RFID chips, powerful computers and the like.
And of course God requires a "terrestrial force" to do such things.
(Matthew 24: 24) Jesus said, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (underline mine)
And the planet has been crawling with false christs and false prophets for the past 2000-odd years, hasn't it?
Wow, what a powerful statement! What “lie” could be so powerful that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect
How about Islam? That's a very sucsessful lie, innit? And it's swept through th world like the plague that it is, and nary a space man in sight.
Have you noticed all the constant UFO / alien programs on the History, Discovery, National Geographic channels and many other stations over the last five – ten years? As of a couple of years ago 72 percent of Americans believe in extraterrestrial life, 48 percent believe in UFOs, and 15 percent believe they have seen a UFO.
UFOs are real. If you see a flying thing that's "defying the laws of Physics", then first, be assured that it isn't defying the laws of Physics (those laws are part of God's design), Then you can assume that whatever it is, be it an alien spaceship, joy-riding demons, the latest ECM drone, the sun glinting off any purely mundane flying thing, or Southwest 1232 to Los Angeles, by virtue of your inability to tell what it is, a UFO.

UFO doesn't mean flying saucer. UFO means you couldn't tell what it was.
Not to mention the dozens of Hollywood movies dealing with space aliens, abductions, UFO'S and demonology.
Somehow I'm never believed that Star Wars was a documentary, ot that Close Encounters and ET were based on news reports. I don't think many people do, although I'm beginning to wonder how many actually think that way.
Could this possibly be some conditioning before the disclosure of what our government and the Vatican know?
The Vatican? Oh please! Them Bad Catholics again! I should have known we'd somehow end up there.
With this in mind before we proceed, do you recall the Halloween October 30, 1938 episode of “The War of the Worlds” narrated on the CBS network by Orson Welles?
Brilliant piece of radio. And Halloween is the 31st.
The localized panic that ensued for those that tuned in late and didn't hear it was a scam?
Scam? Is that what we're callng works of fiction now? You mean King Kong wasn't real?
This might be beneficial to understanding any government(s) cover-up.
Of what? An actual aliens invasion? Oh no, does that mean that Buckaroo Banzai was true as well? (You'd have to see the movie, but it might scar you for life.)
Let's looks at some very well documented facts. I'm sure everyone is well aware of the July 8, 1947 Roswell UFO Incident, where the government initially disclosed that it was in fact, an alien spacecraft with bodies recovered.
Wreckage, yes. Bodies, no. Thwey claimed that had wreckage from a "flying saucer. The bodies claim came later, and not from any gummint sources.
Then within just a few hours immediately retracting their statement and claiming it was just a “weather balloon”!
Does sound like they may have had some secret stuff involved.
I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist but, even today, 68 years later, the government will not disclose its records on that incident, it's above top secret. Without going into much detail, there were many witnesses and documents that discounts the governments claims of a weather balloon. It's as if they're insulting our intelligence.
Governments do secret stuff. Some of it stays that way for security reasons, some stays that way because it could prove embarassing to some people.
hen you eliminate the hoaxes and remove all possible natural causes, surgical precise cattle mutilations beyond modern medicines ability and drained of blood, crop circles, alien abductions, and UFO extraterrestrial sightings seem to be real events.
Matter of faith, matey. You have faith in flying saucers, driven by either spacemen or demons. I consider that to be a --- a delusion. You believe that stuff without any empirical evidence. It's the "substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen".

It's a faith I don't share. If aliens show up tomorrow, I'll say, "Dang, aliens!" If they start preaching some bogus religion (Islam, maybe), I'll know they're deceiving Bad Guys, whereever they claim to come from. Otherwise, treat 'em Christian-like, and tell them what we believe, and why. Who knows, the Lord might use you to lead the first spacement to Christ!
It's well documented and without going into depth, reliable credible people such as; presidents, governors, astronauts, military pilots, police, etc. have witnessed and testified to these events.
I.E., that they've seen things they cou;ldn't identify. Who hasn't?
Are they really real
They who?
and are they actually interplanetary space beings or evil inter-dimensional beings?
Probably neither. No evidence is no evidence.
Not long ago we thought we lived in a three dimensions, length, width and height. Einstein proved that we live in at least four dimensions with the addition of time.
Since no one had heard of time until Einstein.
It's proven that the speed of light (186,000 miles per second) has been slowing down over “time”.
Well, no. You've kind of misunderstood the idea of "old light"., which is purely hyothetical at this point.
The para-physical nature of UFOs in flight would require them to be mass less.
Like the red dot from a laser pointer.
These are unrecognized dimensions beyond our three dimensional space-time domain.
And in one of them there's unlimited free beer. Prove me wrong.
I believe “time” was created during the creation week for the creation, and all the heavenly host lives outside of time, another dimension with no time restraints.
OK, why not?
Matthew 24: 37 Jesus said, “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the son of man be”.

What was the major distinction in Noah's day that caused God to destroy all of mankind?
Might have been instructive to give that quote in context.
it's readily apparent to me the “sons of God” if taken literally are fallen Angels and their offspring are the “Nephilim” hybrids (giants).
Nothing like some old fshioned a priori assumptions to produce specious conclusions.
Recall that Noah was “perfect in his generation”. Translate the word “perfect” from the Hebrew to Greek, and you'll find it doesn't mean without sin. I take the meaning as with out blemish, his DNA was not corrupted.
OK, let's skip a lot of rubbish and cut to the chase...
Let's first looks at the worlds largest religion with well over one billion followers. I won't comment on the pagan practices, praying to Mary and the saints for intercession, cult wide child molestations, intermediaries, etc. Let's look at the Vatican.
Yeah, Them Bad catholics. How'd I know that?
Since Vatican II, the Catholic church doctrine has drastically changed to that of, can alien extra terrestrials be saved, and be Baptized.
Nah, they're from too far away. I mean, het,back in the day, my ancestors were "devils transmarine", diabolical critters from across the seas. Nasty sallow or swarthy color. diabolically black slanted eyes, speaking barbarous incomprehensible, probably inhuman languages, obviously the spawn of Satan. But come to find out, they're just folks after all, and now we constitute a large percentage of God's Church. Who'd a thunk it? I mean, could Christ have really saved those weird beings on the far side of the world? Well, yeah. He could, and He does.

But that doesn't count if they're from an entirely different planet. That's just Too Far. Even our Lord Christ can't save ugly looking peple from that far away.


And that alien beings might be more moral than us
That wouldn't really be that hard, would it?
and not in need of a savior.
Not likely, though, is it?
I'm not kidding, this is documented Roman Catholic
Believing that space aliens can be redeemed by the Blood of Christ? Of course it is! That's they'd baptized into the Church if they believe in christ? Of course it is! How could it be otherwise? "Scary stuff?" Hardly.
Why is the Vatican so interested in aliens and outer space?
Can't be to discover the wonders of God's creation. I mean, who really cares about that?
The short documented answer is; they want to be the alien representative here on earth. Read on.
<ROFL>
Here's something that should make the hair on the back of your neck stand up. There is a device installed on Mount Graham named by the Vatican L.U.C.I.F.E.R. It conveniently stands for, Large Binocular Telescope Near Infrared Utility with Camera and Integral Field Unit for Extragalactic Research. It's affectionately referred to as “Lucy”i. No I'm not making this bizarre stuff up!
You didn't make it up, but someone else surely did. LUCIFER is at the Mt. Graham observatory, but it doesn't belong to the Vatican. The more aptly named the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope (VATT) is also at Mt. Graham, and it does in fact belong to the RCC. Somebody apparently just lied on that one.
Here's a statement from the Vatican's top astronomer at Mount Graham.“The highest levels of Vatican administration and Geo-politics know that, now, knowledge of what's going on in space, and what's approaching us, could be of great import in the next five years, ten years”
Given the source, I'd be inclned to oubt that without seeing it in context in the publication from which it came.
In addition to pestilence, famine, earthquakes, etc. Could some things coming on the earth be open demonic visitations in space craft?
Or by subspace blimps?
How about an alien visitation from another planet the government can't hide, and a disclosure that the governments and the Vatican were suppressing what they knew, not to panic the population?
I'm going to draw a curtain of charity across this whole pile of rubbish. It's the dumbest kind of conspiracy theorizing/catholic bashing/fear mongering/wild imagining blather that you'd care to unearth.

Would these projected advanced galactic alien beings give power to a one world leader to produce signs and wonders in the heavens and on earth to deceive mankind, then demand worship?
Or perhaps to cause rains of barbecue potato chips in the hopes of deceiving the Elect?
iExo-Vaticana, Cris Putnam & Thomas Horn
Tom Horn. Should have known it. If there's a liar in all the world, he's a prime contender for the job. Every word he writes is a lie, incluing the "ands" and "buts".
 
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AV1611VET

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In addition, there is no Scriptural basis for believing that angels are of ET (extra terrestrial) origin,

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Here we see the "sons of God" -- (angels) -- singing and shouting for joy when God created the earth.
 
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DennisF

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Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Here we see the "sons of God" -- (angels) -- singing and shouting for joy when God created the earth.

We know now, the reason the Roswell incident was initially reported by the Air Force as a UFO encounter was to cover up Project Mogal, where high altitude balloons were being used to monitor radioactivity from Soviet nuclear tests in the atmosphere. The whole UFO thing was purposely staged and was a psy-ops counterintelligence operation by the government.

The famous photo of RAAF major Jessie Marcel kneeling over debris of the craft on the floor and holding a message towards the media cameras with the words printed on it, "Flying Disc Recovered, debris and alien bodies being transported to Wright Patterson Field" was (you have to admit) pretty convenient. No one in his position would have accidentally committed such a blunder of national security, unless it was a deliberate act of subterfuge.

The hundreds of classified documents released years later under the Freedom of Information Act about the Roswell incident, as well as the Majestic 12 account supporting the story of a recovered UFO were of course also fakes planted by the government to forever protect the secrecy of Project Mogul.

All this was covered in depth in the video movie "The Mirage Men" which explains the truth about the real nature of the cover-up associated with the Roswell incident.
This makes no sense at all. If the microwave balloon Project Mogul was to be hidden by the govt, why did they instead obscure the findings of the crash on Mac Brazel's ranch and promote the weather balloon cover-up which they were, as you say, trying to protect? Was Rancher Brazel in on the hoax? And what of the testimony of Marcel's son? The so-called message was not on anything Marcel had in his hand but was in the hand of base commander Blanchard and was, with much difficulty, read much later by a more recent generation of UFOlogists. There is no indication that it was intended to be read by the public if what it contained was what was being covered up. And you haven't covered the rest of the story involving WPAFB and the Pentagon. You have some homework to do.
 
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Jipsah

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Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Here we see the "sons of God" -- (angels) -- singing and shouting for joy when God created the earth.
Straining the defintion again, and I ain't playing the game. If you mean angel, say angel, not some other term usually used to refer to possible physical lifeforms originating on other planets. Unless the intent is to obfuscate (which of course it is) then use any old word you like. If we're playing at "spacemen is angels", my response is that we know there are angels, but we do not know if there are any spacemen, angelic, diabolical, or otherwise. If you're gonna contend that spacemen are really angels,you're first gonna need some spacemen, aren't you?
 
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AV1611VET

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Straining the definition again,

Not any more than the NIV and others do.

Job 38:6 [NIV] On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone
Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

From Adam Clarke's Commentary:

This must refer to some intelligent beings who existed before the creation of the visible heavens and earth: and it is supposed that this and the following clause refer to the same beings; that by the sons of God, and the morning stars, the angelic host is meant; as they are supposed to be first, though perhaps not chief, in the order of creation.

Looks to me like your "straining the definition" remark can take a hike.
 
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Jipsah

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Looks to me like your "straining the definition" remark can take a hike.
You wanna play word games, ansd refer to angels as "extraterrestrials", then wear yourself out. But don't pretend you're doing it in the interests of "plain speaking and clear understanding".
 
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AV1611VET

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You wanna play word games, ansd refer to angels as "extraterrestrials", then wear yourself out. But don't pretend you're doing it in the interests of "plain speaking and clear understanding".

Speaking of word games, I believe "extraterrestrials" is your word choice, not mine.

I used the term "angels."

Do you know the difference?
 
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Jipsah

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Speaking of word games, I believe "extraterrestrials" is your word choice, not mine.

I used the term "angels."

Do you know the difference?
Yep. And they’re not interchangeable.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Dennis,

You asked -

So, once again I ask the question and postulate an educated hunch to a possible answer. What event(s) could transpire to cause a “great falling away”, a One World Religion and One World Government, all in a very brief time?

The World Religion is right before our eyes, but people think of Church buildings. The center is the UN with its world religion that all religions have signed up to. It is the earth Charter with its moral values that are legally binding - inclusive, respect, tolerance, common good etc. All areas of society - civil, business and governmental all adhere to this `religion.`

Christian Church organizations are fast taking on those `moral values,` (which are anti-God). Also, the `message of the cross` is being replaced by a `touchy feely God` of our own making. It is the Dominionist doctrine of `We can transform the world,` and thus partner with the society at large to do this. This false doctrine is right through all the church organizations.

Thus the `falling away,` is already happening and will take people straight into the tribulation.

As to the Global Government, that is already moving quickly. When God deals with the Russian Federation (& others) in the Golan heights (early next year) then the plug will be pulled on the economy and people will be in such fear and panic that the `Saviour` the IMF (International Monetary/Mafia Fund) will (again think 2008) step in to save the world economic system. Thus, the CBDC (Central Bank Digital Currency) plus our ID (Identity) will be required so as enough food, finance etc can be shared, (they will say.)

The G 20 (led by the G7) will have probably have the EU President, (likely Macron) as its leader and then the Peace Maker, (A/C) You see the G 20 has a rotation of 5 groups of leaders. This is the `5 have fallen or finished,` of Rev. 17: 10. The 6th will be the EU President and then the A/C about halfway through the trib.

Marilyn.
 
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DennisF

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Straining the defintion again, and I ain't playing the game. If you mean angel, say angel, not some other term usually used to refer to possible physical lifeforms originating on other planets. Unless the intent is to obfuscate (which of course it is) then use any old word you like. If we're playing at "spacemen is angels", my response is that we know there are angels, but we do not know if there are any spacemen, angelic, diabolical, or otherwise. If you're gonna contend that spacemen are really angels,you're first gonna need some spacemen, aren't you?

I would agree that support is not given for "sons of God" = angels (or a subset of them, or some other relationship) but there is scripture - plenty of it - that associates angels with the heavens. Calling angels "spacemen" suggests that they are from (or in) space - what we call the second (and maybe third) heaven of the ancients, and "men" are humans, unless the word is used as it sometimes is in scripture, to refer to what we call humanoids - beings who are human in appearance, whether they are or not. (For example, the "men" who visited Abraham were apparently not humans). So, if "men" is understood more generally as humanoid, then "spaceman" is not an unreasonable designation for angel.
 
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DennisF

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Then act like it.
It is disingenuous for you to be given a claim and then have the giver of the claim refuse to support it. In other words, he is implicitly asking you to ignore him. Apparently he cannot support his claim.
 
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Jipsah

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It is disingenuous for you to be given a claim and then have the giver of the claim refuse to support it. In other words, he is implicitly asking you to ignore him. Apparently he cannot support his claim
Nah, just unwillig to wander off into cloud cuckooland with blather about spacemen, flying saucers, nephilim, human-angelic hybrids, and the tons of other new-agey syncretistic woowoo rubbish that has nothing whatsoever to do with the Christian faith. We have too bloody many people now playing at being Jewish, playing at magic under a variety of pious-sounding names, playing with every supersitition or rediscovered heresy thay can find in "popular theology", because the Gospel just isn't entertaining enough. We have people who claim to believe that the earth is flat and that the sun is a light-bulb hung from a drop cord from a glass ceiling, and believe that it's a Biblical belief. Most have never read the entire New Testament, but boy howdy, can they ever quote the miserable Book of Enoch! A good many of them will opine that our Lord ascended into Heaven via flying saucer, and most have no more understanding of the Triune nature of God and Christology 101 than they do of Particle Physics.

So yeah, let's join the Leave Your Mind Behind movement and ruminate about "extraterrestrial" origins of angels and the perfidy of "The Watchers". We need less religion and more superstition! We long for less talk of omnipotent God and more about omnipotent conspiracies. Want fill churches? That's the way to do it.

The new Biblical illiterati know the Revelation inside and out. But I sometimes wonder if Yeats didn't see the real nature of "The Beast"

"The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
 
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