Changing your mind?

[JohnClay]

I was wondering if there are any pastors or “prophets” that believe they know what God wants people to do and they become so sure of it that they would never change their mind under any circumstances? Though in the case of people writing the Bible they’d be certain about what they believe God is saying to them (perhaps indirectly).

 

[CoreyD]

I was wondering if there are any pastors or “prophets” that believe they know what God wants people to do and they become so sure of it that they would never change their mind under any circumstances? Though in the case of people writing the Bible they’d be certain about what they believe God is saying to them (perhaps indirectly).

Hi John
Yes, there are "prophets" that know what God wants people to do and they are so sure of it that they would never change their mind under any circumstances?
They would and are, and also have died, refusing to do what "Caesar" demands which conflicts with what God commands.

God's people would not compromise their faith, and they know that they are soldiers for Christ, and a light to the world, bringing salvation to the lost.
They are no different to the first century followers of Christ, who were "ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through" them (2 Corinthians 5:20), and in the same way, they know they "are from God, and whoever knows God listens to them; whoever is not from God does not listen to them. 1 John 4:6

Yes, God communicates with them indirectly - through the holy spirit used by Jesus, to shed light on scriptural truths, which they dispense freely to every nation, tribe, and language - all people.

Are you looking for such a people?

 

[BobRyan]

I was wondering if there are any pastors or “prophets” that believe they know what God wants people to do and they become so sure of it that they would never change their mind under any circumstances? Though in the case of people writing the Bible they’d be certain about what they believe God is saying to them (perhaps indirectly).

Some people mistakenly "believe" that prophecy is nothing more than "the strong urge to say something" - and then as you suggest in many cases they find out later that such statements were false/not accurate etc.

So then why does the Bible have such harsh penalties for lying as a prophet?

It is because the popular supposition about prophecy is NOT how prophecy works according to the Bible.

Numbers 12:
Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had married a Cushite woman); 2 and they said, “Is it a fact that the Lord has spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us as well?” And the Lord heard this. 3 (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any person who was on the face of the earth.) 4 And the Lord suddenly said to Moses and to Aaron and Miriam, “You three go out to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them went out. 5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the tent; and He called Aaron and Miriam. When they had both come forward, 6 He said,

“Now hear My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, will make Myself known to him in a vision.
I will speak with him in a dream.
7 It is not this way for My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, (face to face)
That is, openly, and not using mysterious language,
And he beholds the form of the Lord.
So why were you not afraid
To speak against My servant, against Moses?”

God contrasts the REAL mechanism of prophecy with the even MORE explicit communication method He used with Moses.

Sadly what passes today for "prophecy" falls far short of the REAL mechanism for prophecy described in Numbers 12

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I was wondering if there are any pastors or “prophets” that believe they know what God wants people to do and they become so sure of it that they would never change their mind under any circumstances? Though in the case of people writing the Bible they’d be certain about what they believe God is saying to them (perhaps indirectly).

There is no way of knowing until it has been fulfilled. Addionally, they must have a history of never being wrong and pass the 100% test. Don't know of anyone. As far as scripture, we know that all but one prophecy has been fulfilled. Blessings.

 

[NBB]

Yes, there is people who are filled with the Holy spirit, who at least have it mostly right about what God wants for people, communion with God can be as real as anything else.

 

[JohnClay]

I was just thinking about 2 Corinthians 11:14 which says

That comes as no surprise. Even Satan himself pretends to be an angel of light.

So even if an angel appeared to you and quoted Bible verses (like in the temptation of Jesus) it could be possible it is actually the devil deceiving you ???

 

[JohnClay]

Are you looking for such a people?

I don't see how they can know if a message is truly from God or not. If a prophecy turns out true it could still be from Satan since he would tell the truth sometimes. So I think those people are misguided but I find them interesting.

 

[Richard T]

There is no way of knowing until it has been fulfilled. Addionally, they must have a history of never being wrong and pass the 100% test. Don't know of anyone. As far as scripture, we know that all but one prophecy has been fulfilled. Blessings.

Some people mistakenly "believe" that prophecy is nothing more than "the strong urge to say something" - and then as you suggest in many cases they find out later that such statements were false/not accurate etc.

So then why does the Bible have such harsh penalties for lying as a prophet?

It is because the popular supposition about prophecy is NOT how prophecy works according to the Bible.

Numbers 12:
Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had married a Cushite woman); 2 and they said, “Is it a fact that the Lord has spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us as well?” And the Lord heard this. 3 (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any person who was on the face of the earth.) 4 And the Lord suddenly said to Moses and to Aaron and Miriam, “You three go out to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them went out. 5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the tent; and He called Aaron and Miriam. When they had both come forward, 6 He said,

“Now hear My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, will make Myself known to him in a vision.
I will speak with him in a dream.
7 It is not this way for My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, (face to face)
That is, openly, and not using mysterious language,
And he beholds the form of the Lord.
So why were you not afraid
To speak against My servant, against Moses?”

God contrasts the REAL mechanism of prophecy with the even MORE explicit communication method He used with Moses.

Sadly what passes today for "prophecy" falls far short of the REAL mechanism for prophecy described in Numbers 12

New Testament prophecies are far different. In the OT the spirit came upon them. In the NT you have a born again human spirit sealed by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit wills, and you are in faith (and in order) you can give a prophetic word. Meanwhile the other prophets are to judge.
1 Corinthians 14:29-32 (ESV)
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged,
32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.

This shows the standard of accuracy is not 100% anymore. Because the word has to be judged. David Pawson taught too that one prophesying might start out in the Spirit, and then add something by the flesh. Since everyone has the Holy Spirit, we can discern on our own and the others can correct if they feel it is needed. The prophecies of today do not lead a nation into battle or divert from a famine. In the OT if the prophets were wrong, thousands could die. There were few in the OT but in the NT there should be several in each church as the "spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets."

Now I will answer the why? The Spirit is poured out on all flesh. God's design in the NT is to empower all believers. Many are lazy and look to a few, but the reality is that every church could have gifts flowing if they would believe God and learn how to flow.

Why did God say just two or three prophesies? I heard Bob Yandian (fantastic current teacher and author) basically say that a church could prophesy for the whole service. But that is not orderly. God desires teaching and other ministry, praise and worship etc for most services. So capping the service at two or three is exactly what Paul said.

I will say too that there is alot of prophecy today that is garbage. Some have doctrinal issues, some are in it for the money or recognition. Most of this is outside the church. Some are correct but perhaps not every time.

If you hear a prophecy, what is God saying to you? Does it contradict the word of God (clearly false) Does It bears witness? Does it give you a check or eerie feeling (Probably wrong) or it leaves a question mark. In the latter you put it on the shelf. I had a word given to me 40 years ago. I wrote it down, saw my notes just a few years back and it finally it now makes sense and is accurate.

If a church is into entertainment, it leaves no room for the Spirit to come on anybody and is too strict in exactly how each service unfolds. The cure is to replace the fleshly and really invite the Hoy Spirit to the service. The next wave will show this to be true. Most have never seen a service where the glory of God drops so much that everyone there is participating in receiving and giving from God. May God freely move in and through us all.

 

[Richard T]

I was just thinking about 2 Corinthians 11:14 which says

So even if an angel appeared to you and quoted Bible verses (like in the temptation of Jesus) it could be possible it is actually the devil deceiving you ???

No, if it is of the devil your spirit should put you on high alert. I do not think there is anytime that the devil tells you 100% truth. Even it he did, it would be in the wrong context or applied wrongly. I suppose the devil might try to establish credibility with you for a even a few times, just like a romance scammer. Then at some point as you trust them, he turns it to another direction. Giving you a new alternative bible, starting a funky doctrine or denomination, or wrecking your personal life.
If you are not sure find a mature believer when you have an encounter with a spiritual entity, a dream, a prophecy etc.
Hebrews 5:14 (KJV)
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

[CoreyD]

I don't see how they can know if a message is truly from God or not. If a prophecy turns out true it could still be from Satan since he would tell the truth sometimes. So I think those people are misguided but I find them interesting.

You misunderstood what i said, evidently.
I did not say they receive a message from God.

The scriptures contain God's message. The holy spirit sheds light on the message.
John 14:26

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

John 16:13

However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.

This is God's way.
It is true persons might object to it, but God uses his spirit to accomplish his will, and no one can question his way of doing things. There is no better way.
2 Peter 1:21

For no such prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

God can reveal things, and he can hide things.
Matthew 13:11, 16

11 ...it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
He knows his children. 16 ...But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

Matthew 11:25-27

25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

One who has a dad that's close to them, can relate to this.
It's similar to opening the mind to understanding, which is opposite to what Satan does, as he blinds the mind to understanding. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4

This is easy to understand, when we consider how we at times have what we call, a mind block, or when we fail to see something that is "right in front of our nose", or when we are fooling ourselves, so much so that we believe what we have been deluded with.
The mind is a powerful tool, which can be manipulated.
How much more so, can it be influence by spirit - either holy spirit, or Satan's spirit.

The Bible has the message.
The understanding however, is not grasped simply by reading the words.

 

[BobRyan]

...It is because the popular supposition about prophecy is NOT how prophecy works according to the Bible.

Numbers 12:
Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had married a Cushite woman); 2 and they said, “Is it a fact that the Lord has spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us as well?” And the Lord heard this. 3 (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any person who was on the face of the earth.) 4 And the Lord suddenly said to Moses and to Aaron and Miriam, “You three go out to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them went out. 5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the tent; and He called Aaron and Miriam. When they had both come forward, 6 He said,

“Now hear My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, will make Myself known to him in a vision.
I will speak with him in a dream.
7 It is not this way for My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, (face to face)
That is, openly, and not using mysterious language,
And he beholds the form of the Lord.
So why were you not afraid
To speak against My servant, against Moses?”

God contrasts the REAL mechanism of prophecy with the even MORE explicit communication method He used with Moses.

Sadly what passes today for "prophecy" falls far short of the REAL mechanism for prophecy described in Numbers 12

New Testament prophecies are far different. In the OT the spirit came upon them. In the NT you have a born again human spirit sealed by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit wills

Your suggestion is interesting but scripture does not appear to agree with it.

OT prophets "spoke from God" via the Holy Spirit - according to NT writers.

2 Peter 1:
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture becomes a matter of someone’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

1 Peter 1:
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

, and you are in faith (and in order) you can give a prophetic word. Meanwhile the other prophets are to judge.
1 Corinthians 14:29-32 (ESV)
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged,
32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.

Indeed - because not all people "claiming" to be a prophet - are actually prophets as was the case in the OT and in the NT.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and now it is already in the world.

This shows the standard of accuracy is not 100% anymore.

IT shows that just as there were false claims in the OT for that gift so also in the NT.

 

[Richard T]

You misunderstood what i said, evidently.
I did not say they receive a message from God.

The scriptures contain God's message. The holy spirit sheds light on the message.
John 14:26


John 16:13


This is God's way.
It is true persons might object to it, but God uses his spirit to accomplish his will, and no one can question his way of doing things. There is no better way.
2 Peter 1:21


God can reveal things, and he can hide things.
Matthew 13:11, 16


Matthew 11:25-27



One who has a dad that's close to them, can relate to this.
It's similar to opening the mind to understanding, which is opposite to what Satan does, as he blinds the mind to understanding. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4

This is easy to understand, when we consider how we at times have what we call, a mind block, or when we fail to see something that is "right in front of our nose", or when we are fooling ourselves, so much so that we believe what we have been deluded with.
The mind is a powerful tool, hich can be manipulated.
how much more so, can it be influence by spirit - eithe holy spirit, or Satan's spirit.

The Bible has the message.
The understanding however, is not grasped simply by reading the words.

Ok, I appreciate you explaining that. That type of God's guidance, or the rhema as the Greek often calls it is far better than man's prophecy even if the man is operating in the gift of prophecy. Rhema is God's spoken word. "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word (rhema) of God. Without this one can't be saved or do anything for God.

You are right many do read the word but really don't get it. A believer too has far more at their disposal than most realize to understand God's word and His will in it.

 

[BobRyan]

No, if it is of the devil your spirit should put you on high alert. I do not think there is anytime that the devil tells you 100% truth. Even it he did, it would be in the wrong context or applied wrongly.

The devil quoted scripture in Matt 4 to Christ , in an effort to deceive Him, to convince Him to do what He should not do.

 

[Richard T]

Your suggestion is interesting but scripture does not appear to agree with it.

OT prophets "spoke from God" via the Holy Spirit - according to NT writers.

2 Peter 1:
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture becomes a matter of someone’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

1 Peter 1:
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

Indeed - because not all people "claiming" to be a prophet - are actually prophets as was the case in the OT and in the NT.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and now it is already in the world.

IT shows that just as there were false claims in the OT for that gift so also in the NT.

Yes, there are lots of false prophets. In the OT the Holy Spirit came upon them is referenced here. "The Spirit came upon certain judges, warriors, and prophets in a way that gave them extraordinary power: for example, Joshua (Numbers 27:18), Othniel (Judges 3:10), Gideon (Judges 6:34), Samson (Judges 13:25; 14:6), and Saul (1 Samuel 10:9, 10). However, the Spirit later departed from Saul because of his disobedience (1 Samuel 16:14)." Source: https://www.thomasnelsonbibles.com/blog/the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament/

Here is Saul before he was King. "Then the Spirit of the LORD will rush upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man." I Sam. 10:6

Here is an interesting teaching that divides false prophets from "carnal " Christian prophets. Regardless, either outcome if it is not of God and does not bear witness should be disregarded. Prophets and the End Times — Bob Yandian Ministries

 

[CoreyD]

Ok, I appreciate you explaining that. That type of God's guidance, or the rhema as the Greek often calls it is far better than man's prophecy even if the man is operating in the gift of prophecy. Rhema is God's spoken word. "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word (rhema) of God. Without this one can't be saved or do anything for God.

You are right many do read the word but really don't get it. A believer too has far more at their disposal than most realize to understand God's word and His will in it.

I am not referring to rhema, but holy spirit. Not a spoken word, but a powerful spirit.
Imagine being able to think thoughts that are not your own. Or have something come to mind when you need it.
It is not a voice, or spoken word.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes, there are lots of false prophets. In the OT the Holy Spirit came upon them is referenced here. "The Spirit came upon certain judges, warriors, and prophets in a way that gave them extraordinary power: for example, Joshua (Numbers 27:18), Othniel (Judges 3:10), Gideon (Judges 6:34), Samson (Judges 13:25; 14:6), and Saul (1 Samuel 10:9, 10). However, the Spirit later departed from Saul because of his disobedience (1 Samuel 16:14)." Source: https://www.thomasnelsonbibles.com/blog/the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament/

That is exactly what I am talking about, right there.
Spirit that gave them extraordinary power.

God's spirit does not only do the above. It caused persons to speak things that were not of their own - Like Zechariah, and Anna, in the temple.
It can put words in your mouth; open your understanding to things that normal people would not grasp... etc.

Do you understand what I mean?

Here is Saul before he was King. "Then the Spirit of the LORD will rush upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man." I Sam. 10:6

Now you are on my page... I hope.

 

[Richard T]

That is exactly what I am talking about, right there.
Spirit that gave them extraordinary power.

God's spirit does not only do the above. It caused persons to speak things that were not of their own - Like Zechariah, and Anna, in the temple.
It can put words in your mouth; open your understanding to things that normal people would not grasp... etc.

Do you understand what I mean?

Now you are on my page... I hope.

Yes, but for born again believers in the NT, it can still happen like that I even eluded to it, but the everyday stuff is more like the still, small voice that leads for what is not in the word, and the revelation knowledge that we have already in the word. A Christian does not have to always have fireworks, but of course it is great when God shows up so big no one can miss it. I think we are not using the exact same language but have lots of agreement.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes, but for born again believers in the NT, it can still happen like that I even eluded to it, but the everyday stuff is more like the still, small voice that leads for what is not in the word, and the revelation knowledge that we have already in the word. A Christian does not have to always have fireworks, but of course it is great when God shows up so big no one can miss it. I think we are not using the exact same language but have lots of agreement.

Perhaps we do agree, just not in the exactly same way, but I think I understand to an extent.

 

[Richard T]

I am not referring to rhema, but holy spirit. Not a spoken word, but a powerful spirit.
Imagine being able to think thoughts that are not your own. Or have something come to mind when you need it.
It is not a voice, or spoken word.

It is the Holy Spirit that brings the Rhema. Rhema is words coming from God that illuminate the scripture in a personal way that is 100 right on for the moment. I think too when you get that, the original question you pose is answered. Few change when they really hear God on something. We can agree with our head about various church doctrine, but if God shows us something personal and it aligns with the word, most will go with that. Sadly some of it must not be genuine or we would not have so many doctrines. The false ones were either made up, or demonic. Most Christians do not have everything settled in their hearts by God. I see new questions every time I read the bible. I wish God spoke to me about every doctrine. But I can say that those where I have had time to spend with God on, and where he spoke to me, I do not think I have ever backed down. If anything over time the position hardens. No one is right all the time though and I respect others and give a wider berth than many who are excessively dogmatic.

 

[CoreyD]

It is the Holy Spirit that brings the Rhema. Rhema is words coming from God that illuminate the scripture in a personal way that is 100 right on for the moment. I think too when you get that, the original question you pose is answered.

Okay. I understand that, and I agree God is communicating through/by means of holy spirit.

Few change when they really hear God on something. We can agree with our head about various church doctrine, but if God shows us something personal and it aligns with the word, most will go with that. Sadly some of it must not be genuine or we would not have so many doctrines. The false ones were either made up, or demonic. Most Christians do not have everything settled in their hearts by God. I see new questions every time I read the bible. I wish God spoke to me about every doctrine. But I can say that those where I have had time to spend with God on, and where he spoke to me, I do not think I have ever backed down. If anything over time the position hardens. No one is right all the time though and I respect others and give a wider berth than many who are excessively dogmatic.

We disagree on the position that God communicates through holy spirit to any person that is not in a dedicated relationship with him, and expecially annoited as sons.
However, that's okay. If we agreed on everything, we would not be at odds on anything.