Will you let the bible ...

[bbbbbbb]

We are to be led by The Holy Spirit, not our bibles. The Holy Spirit utilizes the bible as a tool for our growth and understanding, nothing more.

That is precisely what got the Friends (Quakers) in very deep trouble and division.

 

[Always in His Presence]

My religion, my faith is more wedded to being kind and showing compassion than it is to law and gospel, to justice and rightness. So I ask of my self "will you let the bible teach you to punish and to judge the 'world' casting some away?" which translates to will I let the bible teach me to be unkind and hard - to treat anyone badly because justice demands it or their faults deserve it?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Kindness over the Gospel?
Compassion over justice?

What religion are you following?

Will you let the Bible give you instruction in Righteousness?

What about the hard passages?

1 Cor 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.​

​

John 2:15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables.​

​

Why wasn't Jesus kind?​

 

[Always in His Presence]

That is precisely what got the Friends (Quakers) in very deep trouble and division.

Absolutely Correct - the Word and the Spirit are One. God is not divided, He will not say something through His Spirit that contradicts what the self same Spirit moved on authors to write.

 

[FredVB]

Jesus was not a vegetarian nor a vegan, he ate fish after the resurrection, and he ate lamb and fish and whatever was common food among the people of Judea.

You do not know, I would not even say I know for certain, and I didn't. To say you know is still willingly ignoring many things for evidence, and I would not ignore such or say there were never any changes ever in the Bible, when I see the evidence of it being otherwise. God did give us our conscience too, and that can just vaguely approximate what we do that's being like Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus is said to be more compassionate than we are, so of course he will be so to animals.

It's not about us. . .it's about God, who gave us everything that moves to be food for us (Ge 9:3).

Early Christians gave up eating things from animals,

Some of the Jewish Christians continued to follow obsolete (Heb 8:13) Leviticus regulations regarding food, still thinking it was unclean.

they had his example, as they said. It is not the gospel by which there is salvation. Growth toward godliness is still meant for us in Christ.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Early Christians gave up eating things from animals,

Acts 10:9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”​

​

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”​

​

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.​

​

​

Matt 15:36 And He took the seven loaves and the fish and gave thanks, broke them and gave them to His disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitude.

1 Tim 4:Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.​

​

1 Cor 10: 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being. 25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”

 

[FredVB]

It's not about us. . .it's about God, who gave us everything that moves to be food for us (Ge 9:3).

Some of the Jewish Christians continued to follow obsolete (Heb 8:13) Leviticus regulations regarding food, still thinking it was unclean.

Very many earliest believers ate real food that was not from animals, this is found in history, and they believed they were following the ways of Jesus, and James the brother of Jesus and various apostles Jesus chose were doing that.

https://medium.com/sant-mat-meditation-and-spirituality/evidence-that-jesus-and-the-original-aramaic-christians-were-vegetarians-b8784ac42506

If you just quote from Genesis 9 to show what God most wanted you would ignore Genesis 1, and if you know it was different already you must believe that God changes, and God would think it was the wrong way that God had it to start with. I don't believe that, I know God doesn't change.

I do believe there is accommodation, God is not willing to leave any to perish, all are given opportunity to repent, while those coming to salvation are not all living perfectly in God's will yet.

Acts 10:9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”​

​

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”​

​

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.​

​

​

Matt 15:36 And He took the seven loaves and the fish and gave thanks, broke them and gave them to His disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitude.

1 Tim 4:Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.​

​

1 Cor 10: 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being. 25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”

I am appalled at each time I see this deliberate strategy, thinking that those I presume are believers who would claim to believe the Bible should be really embarrassed, using verses or passages out of context for their argument. Really. I keep seeing this strategy. If you haven't, please read all the passage, to the end of the chapter, at least, if not the Bible as a whole, which should be most desirable. I will have to explain later if it is all copied and pasted from somewhere and you do not have a Bible yourself you can read.

One more thing, out of curiosity. Do you think I am suffering, or really unhappy from sacrifices with my choices? I don't even argue much for vegan choices like I see others argue against it. Why do you think I speak for it?

 

[Always in His Presence]

I am appalled at each time I see this deliberate strategy, thinking that those I presume are believers who would claim to believe the Bible should be really embarrassed, using verses or passages out of context for their argument. Really. I keep seeing this strategy. If you haven't, please read all the passage, to the end of the chapter, at least, if not the Bible as a whole, which should be most desirable. I will have to explain later if it is all copied and pasted from somewhere and you do not have a Bible yourself you can read.

John 21:8 8 But the other disciples came in the little boat (for they were not far from land, but about two hundred cubits), dragging the net with fish. 9 Then, as soon as they had come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid on it, and bread. 10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish which you have just caught.”​

​

Are you equally appalled at Jesus? He is sitting there cooking fish for breakfast.

Perhaps God was wrong when He told Adam Gen 9:3 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.

One more thing, out of curiosity. Do you think I am suffering, or really unhappy from sacrifices with my choices?

How on earth would I know that? We have never spoken, nor met. Why would I know if you are happy or sad? Why is that even part of this discussion?

I don't even argue much for vegan choices like I see others argue against it. Why do you think I speak for it?

Again - I don't know, nor do I care - I am not trying to be rude, but in the scope of what Scripture plainly states what you or I feel is completely of no value.

Look at what Paul said to Timothy about the end times:

1 Tim 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;​

​

Now I have given you six Scripture verses, in context, that support the consumption of eating meat. You have not countered with even one showing God forbids the eating of meat. Until you do - it is only your opinion.

 

[Palmfever]

My religion, my faith is more wedded to being kind and showing compassion than it is to law and gospel, to justice and rightness. So I ask of my self "will you let the bible teach you to punish and to judge the 'world' casting some away?" which translates to will I let the bible teach me to be unkind and hard - to treat anyone badly because justice demands it or their faults deserve it?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

We don't judge the world on this earth. That is Gods job.
We judge the church.
1 Cor 5:12
For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders (non-believers)? Do you not judge those who are within the church [to protect the church as the situation requires]? 13 God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside [the faith.

 

[FredVB]

John 21:8 8 But the other disciples came in the little boat (for they were not far from land, but about two hundred cubits), dragging the net with fish. 9 Then, as soon as they had come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid on it, and bread. 10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish which you have just caught.”​

​

Are you equally appalled at Jesus? He is sitting there cooking fish for breakfast.

Perhaps God was wrong when He told Adam Gen 9:3 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.

How on earth would I know that? We have never spoken, nor met. Why would I know if you are happy or sad? Why is that even part of this discussion?

Again - I don't know, nor do I care - I am not trying to be rude, but in the scope of what Scripture plainly states what you or I feel is completely of no value.

Look at what Paul said to Timothy about the end times:

1 Tim 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;​

​

Now I have given you six Scripture verses, in context, that support the consumption of eating meat. You have not countered with even one showing God forbids the eating of meat. Until you do - it is only your opinion.

Not at all. You still will not read in context when I mention to do so. You start with Genesis 9, which is not a scene where everything is very good, far from that, and communicate it like there is nothing to see from Genesis 1:29-30, like that was just a mistake God made, but God's mind changed, thousands of years later, and this was what God really wanted. Really? And prophecies showing a return to that are just fooling us? Really, there was a deliberate agenda to stop any seeing reason for believers to eat food from plants but not products from animals. Never mind Proverbs 12:10 or that there is plenty of very convincing evidence it is far healthier to eat just whole food from plants, without animal products and processed stuff for food.

Have I really forbidden you from anything at all??? No, I haven't. I haven't mentioned anything being forbidden. You use things from scriptures out of context for what they do not apply to. I am sharing information, and it isn't wrong.

You think it is some sort of sacrifice and I am informing you it is not.

 

[Always in His Presence]

You think it is some sort of sacrifice and I am informing you it is not.

Okie dokie. You have your veggies and I’ll have a ribeye and we will both be happy!

I accept the you have no scripture to support your position. I say this because you have not quoted any.

Vague accusations do not bolster your position.

 

[FredVB]

Okie dokie. You have your veggies and I’ll have a ribeye and we will both be happy!

I accept the you have no scripture to support your position. I say this because you have not quoted any.

Vague accusations do not bolster your position.

Really. You just don't want to look. I am not bothering with what you tell me you eat, I'm not telling you what I eat, and enjoy. But you say I don't show scripture for what I post, and really you just don't want to look at scripture passages posted right there. Again, there is Genesis 1:29-30, and Proverbs 12:10, that you completely ignore. You also claim permission for what you have, while you really do not have that, while you eat what was made having blood in it.

Require more verses from me? Alright, here are some more. There will not be a shortage if more are needed.

Psalm 50:9-11
God has no need for animals to be killed.

Genesis 1:29, Genesis 2:19, Genesis 6:5-8, Genesis 8:15-17, 20, Genesis 9:1-5, Acts 15:22, 28-29, Romans 8:19, 21-22, Isaiah 11:6-9, Revelation 21:4
God said, "I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed, to you it shall be for food." Yahweh God said "It is not good that man should live alone." Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. Then Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. So Yahweh said, "I will destroy man who I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air." But Noah found grace in the eyes of Yahweh. Then God spoke to Noah, saying, "Go out of the ark, you, your wife, your sons and their wives. Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth." Then Noah built an altar to Yahweh, and offered burnt offerings. God blessed Noah and his sons, and said, "The fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and all the fish of the sea. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you, I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. But you shall not eat flesh with its blood. For your lifeblood I will require a reckoning." It pleased the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They wrote this letter: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things, that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from what was strangled, and from sexual immorality. Keep yourselves from these, you will do well." The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope, because the creation itself will also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young ones shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea." "God will wipe away every tear, there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."


We with being human some being godly with following Christ the Lord are better as images of God than others, those who will only live in an ungodly way are not being the image of God. It is not shown that all animals are without spirit, and indeed there is scripture showing otherwise, and it does not show that God, the Creator of all, does not care for other animals, God shows that he does. Animals, even those that are by nature predators, show plenty of evidence, along with being social creatures, that they make choices that we would see as involving morality. We don't have a way of asking any of them about it. But think of such famous videos made available, as the cat that fought off a vicious dog attack likely saving the life of the little child in the family that the cat lived with. There are many anecdotes of animals rescuing people with their action. While such saving action may be seen as selective, we ourselves as humans naturally make choices on a tribal level, caring for protection of those in our own household first, it is a higher level, to which some people don't come, to save others not in their own sphere.

Sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is generally not understood well. What is thought about sacrifice God hated, as those performing them had become so callous, and sacrifice was just something to be done. The meaning of sin being so horrible, and a cost for it indicated with sacrifice of a precious life of an innocent animal of perfect breed, for which there should be awareness, and foreshadowing the effective sacrifice of Christ, was lost when it shouldn't be. Sacrifice of animals does not show they are without spirit. It is shown that animals are with a spirit. The vision for the future of animals on God's holy mountain without any harm or killing shows this with the relief creation groans for finally coming. It is horrible what is done to billions and billions of animals for humanity going on all the time. We have no realistic basis to claim moral superiority with the involvement with this. We as humans are sinful and need salvation from sin, animals are innocent, many suffering for us and what we do. God is showing care for animals.

Besides all the scriptures I might yet show for these things, there are other things to really not ignore. Just having whole food from plants without processed foods and adding salt, oil, and sugar to anything is really far healthier, while you need vitamin supplements anyway, there is epidemic of dietary diseases including heart attacks and strokes, cancers, diabetes type 2, morbid obesity, and more in this society and it would be avoided, or maybe reversed, with this healthy way of eating without animal products. There are doctors behind this with patients they save with it and studies that have been done, for abundant evidence. That is one other thing. There are many other things, and I do not think God would require us to go in such a destructive way, and not have a better way available, that is in God's plan.

Let the Bible speak for us rather than us say what is and isn't there.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Really. You just don't want to look. I am not bothering with what you tell me you eat, I'm not telling you what I eat, and enjoy. But you say I don't show scripture for what I post, and really you just don't want to look at scripture passages posted right there. Again, there is Genesis 1:29-30, and Proverbs 12:10, that you completely ignore. You also claim permission for what you have, while you really do not have that, while you eat what was made having blood in it.

Require more verses from me? Alright, here are some more. There will not be a shortage if more are needed.

Psalm 50:9-11
God has no need for animals to be killed.

Genesis 1:29, Genesis 2:19, Genesis 6:5-8, Genesis 8:15-17, 20, Genesis 9:1-5, Acts 15:22, 28-29, Romans 8:19, 21-22, Isaiah 11:6-9, Revelation 21:4
God said, "I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed, to you it shall be for food." Yahweh God said "It is not good that man should live alone." Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. Then Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. So Yahweh said, "I will destroy man who I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air." But Noah found grace in the eyes of Yahweh. Then God spoke to Noah, saying, "Go out of the ark, you, your wife, your sons and their wives. Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth." Then Noah built an altar to Yahweh, and offered burnt offerings. God blessed Noah and his sons, and said, "The fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and all the fish of the sea. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you, I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. But you shall not eat flesh with its blood. For your lifeblood I will require a reckoning." It pleased the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They wrote this letter: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things, that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from what was strangled, and from sexual immorality. Keep yourselves from these, you will do well." The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope, because the creation itself will also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young ones shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea." "God will wipe away every tear, there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."


We with being human some being godly with following Christ the Lord are better as images of God than others, those who will only live in an ungodly way are not being the image of God. It is not shown that all animals are without spirit, and indeed there is scripture showing otherwise, and it does not show that God, the Creator of all, does not care for other animals, God shows that he does. Animals, even those that are by nature predators, show plenty of evidence, along with being social creatures, that they make choices that we would see as involving morality. We don't have a way of asking any of them about it. But think of such famous videos made available, as the cat that fought off a vicious dog attack likely saving the life of the little child in the family that the cat lived with. There are many anecdotes of animals rescuing people with their action. While such saving action may be seen as selective, we ourselves as humans naturally make choices on a tribal level, caring for protection of those in our own household first, it is a higher level, to which some people don't come, to save others not in their own sphere.

Sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is generally not understood well. What is thought about sacrifice God hated, as those performing them had become so callous, and sacrifice was just something to be done. The meaning of sin being so horrible, and a cost for it indicated with sacrifice of a precious life of an innocent animal of perfect breed, for which there should be awareness, and foreshadowing the effective sacrifice of Christ, was lost when it shouldn't be. Sacrifice of animals does not show they are without spirit. It is shown that animals are with a spirit. The vision for the future of animals on God's holy mountain without any harm or killing shows this with the relief creation groans for finally coming. It is horrible what is done to billions and billions of animals for humanity going on all the time. We have no realistic basis to claim moral superiority with the involvement with this. We as humans are sinful and need salvation from sin, animals are innocent, many suffering for us and what we do. God is showing care for animals.

Besides all the scriptures I might yet show for these things, there are other things to really not ignore. Just having whole food from plants without processed foods and adding salt, oil, and sugar to anything is really far healthier, while you need vitamin supplements anyway, there is epidemic of dietary diseases including heart attacks and strokes, cancers, diabetes type 2, morbid obesity, and more in this society and it would be avoided, or maybe reversed, with this healthy way of eating without animal products. There are doctors behind this with patients they save with it and studies that have been done, for abundant evidence. That is one other thing. There are many other things, and I do not think God would require us to go in such a destructive way, and not have a better way available, that is in God's plan.

Let the Bible speak for us rather than us say what is and isn't there.

Actually, I don't necessarily see any need on God's part to torture humans eternally in the lake of fire, but that does not alter the reality. God does not need to eat anything at all, but has provided food, including animals and fish, for his earthly creatures. If some, such as the panda, only eat one particular species of bamboo, it hardly means that all other creatures should also do so. The human digestive system was created for an omnivorous diet. Some people manage without fruit and vegetables at all, and some without animal protein. Within Christianity, no particular diet has been commanded. In fact, Paul makes it quite clear that diet is an area left open to personal discretion. The only prohibition is not to force one's dietary opinions on another brother.

 

[FredVB]

Actually, I don't necessarily see any need on God's part to torture humans eternally in the lake of fire, but that does not alter the reality. God does not need to eat anything at all, but has provided food, including animals and fish, for his earthly creatures. If some, such as the panda, only eat one particular species of bamboo, it hardly means that all other creatures should also do so. The human digestive system was created for an omnivorous diet. Some people manage without fruit and vegetables at all, and some without animal protein. Within Christianity, no particular diet has been commanded. In fact, Paul makes it quite clear that diet is an area left open to personal discretion. The only prohibition is not to force one's dietary opinions on another brother.

Hi, we see a difference already about God's justice in the end. I see it to be real justice of God, which isn't torture. Imagery is for indicating what can't be shown, being beyond familiar reality.

I think argument being made that is supposed to relate to what I said actually misses what I actually said when I posted, the first of which I show quoted again, below. It was about the compassion of Jesus, and that compassion is then in the model for us. Where is my opinion? I have been sharing what I know. There was an opinion. I will tell you. Jesus was not a vegetarian nor a vegan. Of course, no such word was used in Bible times. But that he did not eat in such a way is an opinion. It is not shown how he did or didn't eat. My point that compassion is modeled stands. I was the one contesting what didn't have basis, an opinion. This was countered with several passages, and I pointed out that such passages used are taken out of context, and saying what is not meant, from them. This still wasn't admitted, rather that I don't have any verses for my position. Do you see how that escalated? I wasn't wrong, and I do have verses, those shown, and more if needed. But still passages to answer me were out of context to mean something that wasn't meant there, and it still isn't admitted. So it may be necessary to show and then it would be seen why they should be embarrassed to use scripture this way. But, compassion, that is modeled, is not addressed. And, no where did I say something was a command for any, to bring that up disregards what I post and is irrelevant to any of it.

There was the original diet provided for us which continued centuries and a millennium, was it a mistake, and God's mind and God's will changed? It is what others must be saying, I don't believe it. I see God making concessions and man's heart is desperately wicked, still, God does not just will that any would just perished, it's just that they should be brought to repentance, that there will be essential faith.

Jesus is said to be more compassionate than we are, so of course he will be so to animals. Early Christians gave up eating things from animals, they had his example, as they said. It is not the gospel by which there is salvation. Growth toward godliness is still meant for us in Christ.

 

[Fervent]

Interesting OP. Would you let the Bible teach you to hate what the Lord hates, and love what the Lord loves? And might that mean treating those you perceive as His enemies with unkindness? Do you think living in a way that speaks of the justice of God would require unkindness to others? Or is justice itself a kindness, even if unpleasant? Let's not confuse being good or kind and being nice or safe.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Interesting OP. Would you let the Bible teach you to hate what the Lord hates, and love what the Lord loves? And might that mean treating those you perceive as His enemies with unkindness? Do you think living in a way that speaks of the justice of God would require unkindness to others? Or is justice itself a kindness, even if unpleasant? Let's not confuse being good or kind and being nice or safe.

I am not so sure I know what the Lord hates aside from sin. Hating people that is to say hating individuals isn't something that I'm keen on. That is not to say that I never hate people I sin just like everybody else does. So in the original post my intention is to say I don't want to read the Bible in such a way that I end up hating people because they don't see things the same way as I do. I do not want to hate people with different race than mine nor people with different sexuality than mine nor people with different religion than mine and finally I do not want to hate people just because they're different in some way. If reading the bible made me think that I should hate people because they are different or for some specific kind of difference then I am sure I would be reading the bible the wrong way. So in summary I wrote I won't let the Bible teach me to hate people.

 

[Fervent]

I am not so sure I know what the Lord hates aside from sin. Hating people that is to say hating individuals isn't something that I'm keen on. That is not to say that I never hate people I sin just like everybody else does. So in the original post my intention is to say I don't want to read the Bible in such a way that I end up hating people because they don't see things the same way as I do. I do not want to hate people with different race than mine nor people with different sexuality than mine nor people with different religion than mine and finally I do not want to hate people just because they're different in some way. If reading the bible made me think that I should hate people because they are different or for some specific kind of difference then I am sure I would be reading the bible the wrong way. So in summary I wrote I won't let the Bible teach me to hate people.

Do you fear that understanding justice as God understands it would lead to such hatred? Do you think God uses malice when He expresses His judgments? My question comes down more to what you mean by "kind" than anything else, because sometimes kindness requires a sharp rebuke or a harsh word both of which require expressing judgment. I agree with your notion that if the Bible leads you to hate people then something has been missed, but it's not because we have to choose between justice and mercy. Both are perfectly expressed in the cross of Christ.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Do you fear that understanding justice as God understands it would lead to such hatred? Do you think God uses malice when He expresses His judgments? My question comes down more to what you mean by "kind" than anything else, because sometimes kindness requires a sharp rebuke or a harsh word both of which require expressing judgment. I agree with your notion that if the Bible leads you to hate people then something has been missed, but it's not because we have to choose between justice and mercy. Both are perfectly expressed in the cross of Christ.

I am content to let God be God. I do not know the depth of God's thinking nor the depths of his feeling, though I think feeling may not be a word applicable to God. So to answer your question I try not to intrude to trespass into knowledge about God's inner motives God's inner feelings or anything else that God has not clearly revealed.

(And by "clearly" revealed I do not mean that there is no passage in scripture that some may interpret to teach that god hates wicked each and every one of them, or that god hates some person or group of people like the Amalekites or some other groups. That kind of thinking has caused a lot of grief in human society and a lot of grief within churches. I think it might be time that people stop thinking like that because Jesus didn't think like that and no one can argue that Jesus did not have a high view of scripture nor that he was in any way disrespectful towards God or towards truth regarding God.)

My original post and the last post that I wrote prior to this one explain as clearly as I am able to explain that it is my determination to read scripture and find in it what God actually does teach rather than relying on opinions, my own opinion included, to determine who is worthy of love and who is worthy of tolerance and who is worthy of being treated with dignity. God teaches us that he made humanity in his own image male and female, both of them, in his image; we must treat them with the proper dignity due to creatures made in the image of God.

 

[Fervent]

I am content to let God be God. I do not know the depth of God's thinking nor the depths of his feeling, though I think feeling may not be a word applicable to God. So to answer your question I try not to intrude to trespass into knowledge about God's inner motives God's inner feelings or anything else that God has not clearly revealed.

Are you though? Or are you choosing not to seek God's will regarding matters of justice out of fear of what it would require of you?

(And by "clearly" revealed I do not mean that there is no passage in scripture that some may interpret to teach that god hates wicked each and every one of them, or that god hates some person or group of people like the Amalekites or some other groups. That kind of thinking has caused a lot of grief in human society and a lot of grief within churches. I think it might be time that people stop thinking like that because Jesus didn't think like that and no one can argue that Jesus did not have a high view of scripture nor that he was in any way disrespectful towards God or towards truth regarding God.)

First you say you don't probe God's inner being, but then you know how Jesus thought? It seems to me that Jesus' words to the Pharisees often crossed lines that most wouldn't consider kind.

My original post and the last post that I wrote prior to this one explain as clearly as I am able to explain that it is my determination to read scripture and find in it what God actually does teach rather than relying on opinions, my own opinion included, to determine who is worthy of love and who is worthy of tolerance and who is worthy of being treated with dignity. God teaches us that he made humanity in his own image male and female, both of them, in his image; we must treat them with the proper dignity due to creatures made in the image of God.

Is it not the responsibility of God's people to teach the world who God is in all matters? And does that not include matters of justice?


I'm not asking you these questions to stand in judgment of you, but I'm curious what is truly motivating the sentiments you've expressed. Are you restricting where God can lead you regardless of your own sentiments? Do you believe you have to choose between justice and kindness? Love and judgment?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

First you say you don't probe God's inner being, but then you know how Jesus thought? It seems to me that Jesus' words to the Pharisees often crossed lines that most wouldn't consider kind.

I know what Jesus thinks by what he says and what he did as described in scripture there is no implication that I read his mind or that I have special insight into the inner workings of God the son.