Thoughts on God's sovereignty, omniscience and the laws of physics.

[BNR32FAN]

They are leading the elect to repentance.

So if God is leading them to repentance, why aren’t they repenting?

 

[Clare73]

So if God is leading them to repentance, why aren’t they repenting?

Did the text say they had arrived or that they were being led?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Have you stopped beating your friend?
A simple yes or no will answer my question.

Answer to your question: they are leading the elect to repentance.

Lol you used the word “they”. Are you implying that God Himself is not desiring for them to repent?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did the text say they had arrived or that they were being led?

Yes the words “are leading” absolutely does mean that they are in fact being led.

 

[Clare73]

Lol you used the word “they”. Are you implying that God Himself is not desiring for them to repent?

Are you implying they are not being led to repentance?

Being led is not the same as arriving.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are you implying they are not being led to repentance?

Being led is not the same as arriving.

So God is leading them to repentance while not actually desiring for them to repent?

 

[Clare73]

So God is leading them to repentance while not actually desiring for them to repent?

The point is the tense of the verb, present (leading) vs. future (arriving).

Not to mention, the occurrence of the kind of eventuality you state is addressed in post #14, regarding God's secret will (see Pharaoh), which you choose not to study.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The point is the tense of the verb, present (leading) vs. future (arriving).

Not to mention, the occurrence of the kind of eventuality you state is addressed in post #14, regarding God's secret will (see Pharaoh), which you choose not to study.

Sure we can talk about Pharaoh. Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? He says why in Exodus 3

“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭3‬:‭19‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God used Pharaoh as an example because He knew that Pharaoh wouldn’t let the Israelites go except under compulsion. So He hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that His might and glory could be seen by inflicting 10 plagues against Egypt which resulted in the Egyptian people believing so much that they gave the Israelites their gold and treasures just to get rid of the Israelites.

“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And what did Paul say right after this?

“You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭19‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul tells us WHY God has the right to do what He wants with the clay pots. It’s because He alone knows our hearts and our minds and because He has shown patience with us He is just in whatever He chooses to do with us. He’s given everyone the same opportunity to repent and those who don’t take that opportunity are justly deserving of whatever wrath God decides to inflict on them. This is the same patience referred to in Romans 2:4-5, 2 Peter 3:9, and Revelation 2:20-21.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The point is the tense of the verb, present (leading) vs. future (arriving).

Not to mention, the occurrence of the kind of eventuality you state is addressed in post #14, regarding God's secret will (see Pharaoh), which you choose not to study.

You seem to have abandoned the discussion about whether we believe before or after we receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Clare73]

Sure we can talk about Pharaoh. Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart?

Try again. . .it's not about hardening hearts.

You seem to have abandoned the discussion about whether we believe before or after we receive the Holy Spirit.

We are sovereignly born again of the Holy Spirit into eternal life (Jn 3:3-8) who then indwells us.
We are given the gift of faith (2 Pe 1:1, Php 1:29).
We are saved from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) by that gift of faith (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Does allowing for something necessarily mean that it can occur?

To my mind, whatever occurs is only a logical result of him creating. Cause and effect is completely pervasive, universal. I don't even think in terms of him "allowing", but, rather, him "causing"; whether indirectly or indirectly, it is all part of what it takes to produce precisely what he had in mind from the beginning. There is no other route to get there, and no substitutions. As you say, nothing happens (comes) from a void.

And, of course, as you know, I don't think that begins to preclude the creature's real choices nor personal responsibility for their choices.

 

[Diamond72]

Does mankind have free will?

We choose if we are going to do the will of God or not. Deuteronomy 30 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

 

[KevinT]

We choose if we are going to do the will of God or not. Deuteronomy at, 30 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Hear hear, I’m fully in agreement. But not all are.

KT

 

[Diamond72]

Hear hear, I’m fully in agreement. But not all are.

The funny thing is that the people that do not approve of what they are doing are looking for others to approve of their sin and transgression. The Bible is very clear that we can not give them approval. I have people in my open family that do not talk to be because I do not approve of their hood mentality. We try to help as best we can. But far to often the help they are looking for is in dealing with their best friend being shot and killed or dealing with their addictions. There are a lot of good people out there though.

 

[Palmfever]

Knowing that we do have free will but cannot act against our nature answers a LOT of questions.

Huh?
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

In order that the
requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want

 

[All Becomes New]

Huh?
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

In order that the
requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want

I affirm all of those verses. What's the problem?

 

[Palmfever]

I affirm all of those verses. What's the problem?

All of those verses are about changing, controlling, subjugating the flesh.
Unless I missunderstood this statement of yours, "but cannot act against our nature answers a LOT of questions."

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[All Becomes New]

All of those verses are about changing, controlling, subjugating the flesh.
Unless I missunderstood this statement of yours, "but cannot act against our nature answers a LOT of questions."

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

What I am saying is that it is our nature in how we respond to the Gospel. Some people respond positively, some negatively. Why? Is it free will? That just kicks the can down the road. Is it God's sovereign choice? Then show me that in the Bible (and I don't mean Paul on his way to Damascus—I have an argument for that as well).

 

[Palmfever]

What I am saying is that it is our nature in how we respond to the Gospel. Some people respond positively, some negatively. Why? Is it free will? That just kicks the can down the road. Is it God's sovereign choice? Then show me that in the Bible (and I don't mean Paul on his way to Damascus—I have an argument for that as well).

There will always be larger - smaller, quicker - slower, smart - less so, God didn't clone us.
That can will be kicked down the road by individuals until the day we die.
Causal derterminism, unless God isn't worth the 3 letters it takes to spell, may have a greator influence in cosmology than the human soul.

Are we to believe God who we would likely agree, can make whatever He pleases. This God made mindless angels and humans with no choice because what he really was doing was simply setting up a fantastic grand war so He could kick the stuffing outta something that was drafted into service on the losing team.
That is no god.
That is not even a worthwhile human. Nor angel.
Of course we get to chose. That is the entire purpose of this human experience.
Well, other than His own good pleasure.

That can is the shell in which we live.
Our petri dish.
Our garden needs to be tended.

 

[All Becomes New]

That can will be kicked down the road by individuals until the day we die.

Hard to parse, but it sounds like you think God cannot make someone born again.

Causal derterminism, unless God isn't worth the 3 letters it takes to spell, may have a greator influence in cosmology than the human soul.

I agree. I am not a Calvinist. But I think saying our relationship with God has nothing to do with what God wills is also a mistake.

This God made mindless angels and humans with no choice because what he really was doing was simply setting up a fantastic grand war so He could kick the stuffing outta something that was drafted into service on the losing team.

I don't believe that either. Still, LFW is nonsensical. It entails that man has a secret power that is known to only him and God.

Of course we get to chose. That is the entire purpose of this human experience.

I am not saying we do not choose. I am saying it is based on our nature in how we choose.

You still have to answer why some people respond positively to the Gospel, and some do not. "Because of free will" does not answer anything. Why would one person choose of their own free will and another does not?