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Creationists: how close is the Jewish Calandar to the age of the Earth?

Platte

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I'll just quote you here.

So. God created with the spoken word on day 3. God created the earth, those are your words. And I asked, what did God create? And you said, "by creating topography deep into the earth.

Ok so, God on day 3, when he creates. He creates the earth by giving it topography.

Topography isn't itself an object. The earth is the object and subject of the creative act of day 3. And God creates the earth by giving it topography.

This is what you said. It's topography of the earth. God is forming the earth because, as you yourself have said, it was previously formless.

Are you going to backtrack and change your words, or are you going to stick with this?
Day 1 God created the earth. The planet earth. But earth was formless and void. The same earth as we have today. But the ground was formless - no topography. Take away topography and make the earth smooth today and you’d have a planet completely covered in water about 2 miles deep. God created earth on day 1 - the ground was under the water. On day 3 he added topography and water gathered together. Sea’s were created in large chucks of land thousands of feet below sea level. The gathering of this water began to expose the land and land above sea level like mountains exposed the dry land. There are many maps that show the earths topography today. The dry land was called earth in the same way we call it today. It is understood we are not referring to the planet itself. Earth movers are trucks and equipment that move land around. Day 3 I say topography - that’s understood to mean the valleys, mountains, canyons, plains, plateaus, etc. Day 3 - the earth is no longer formless. Adding vegetation on day 3 also meant the earth was no longer void.

These things I’m saying aren’t complicated or controversial. We know from Genesis 1:1 that God created the earth with no topography. It was without form and we know the earth was completely covered with deep water. Exactly as you’d expect the earth to be with no topography. Add topography and the dry land will begin to appear. Nothing unusual about what I’m saying. The Bible clearly says the earth (planet) was created on day 1 in the beginning. There is no reason for you to even think that’s not what happened. You’ve certainly made no Biblical case that it didn’t.

I am glad you believe Creation took 6 days and not thousands or billions of years. I would hate to have to get you to that understanding.
 
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Job 33:6

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The gathering of this water began to expose the land and land above sea level like mountains exposed the dry land.
The dry land was called earth in the same way we call it today. It is understood we are not referring to the planet itself. Earth movers are trucks and equipment that move land around. Day 3 I say topography - that’s understood to mean the valleys, mountains, canyons, plains, plateaus, etc. Day 3 - the earth is no longer formless

"Earth movers are trucks and equipment that move land around. "

ok. So if on Day 3, God created dry land (valleys, mountains, canyons, plains, plateaus, etc), and then God calls the dry land "Earth", then on Day 3, Earth, was created.

Can you accept this? @Platte

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth,[a] and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
 
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Platte

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"Earth movers are trucks and equipment that move land around. "

ok. So if on Day 3, God created dry land (valleys, mountains, canyons, plains, plateaus, etc), and then God calls the dry land "Earth", then on Day 3, Earth, was created.
No; God did not create dry land on day 3. Genesis does not make that claim either. It simply says dry land appeared when the waters gathered together.
He added topography to earth and the “dry land appeared”. The land was under the water and was created in verse 1.
Can you accept this? @Platte

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth,[a] and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
Exactly - the dry land appeared (appeared - not created in verse 9) (the earth was created in Genesis 1:1) when the water gathered together.

Context: Earth the planet was created in Genesis 1:1. We do refer to dry land as earth even today but not to represent earth the planet. Obviously the seas are part of earth too. I’m not gonna go round and round about that - if you don’t understand that I can’t help you. Do a google search on why we call the dry land earth - you’ll get a good explanation of it.

Btw. You are getting closer.
 
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Job 33:6

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No; God did not create dry land on day 3. Genesis does not make that claim either. It simply says dry land appeared when the waters gathered together.
He added topography to earth and the “dry land appeared”. The land was under the water and was created in verse 1.
So what did God create then, if not the dry land, when he spoke in verse 9?

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
 
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David Lamb

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Again, what else do you think is being created here if not the earth?

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.


And God said...God called the dry land "Earth". And God saw that it was good.

Am I assuming ex materia creation here? No. I'm just reading the Bible.

God spoke.
Earth appeared.
God saw that it was good.

That's creation.
Yet as I and others keep saying, according to Genesis 1:1-2, the earth (the planet) was already in existence before dry land appeared on it. What is "the earth" in these verses?:

“1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” (Ge 1:1-2 NKJV)

It had been created by God. He then arranged it so that dry land appeared. It is noticeable that the word "create" isn't used in verses 9-10:

“9 ¶ Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry [land] appear"; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry [land] Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that [it was] good.” (Ge 1:9-10 NKJV)
 
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Job 33:6

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Yet as I and others keep saying, according to Genesis 1:1-2, the earth (the planet) was already in existence before dry land appeared on it. What is "the earth" in these verses?:

“1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” (Ge 1:1-2 NKJV)

It had been created by God. He then arranged it so that dry land appeared. It is noticeable that the word "create" isn't used in verses 9-10:

“9 ¶ Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry [land] appear"; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry [land] Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that [it was] good.” (Ge 1:9-10 NKJV)

So that's an error.

Because that would imply that God spoke. Something happened. God looked back on it and said that it was Good, and then as it turns out, God never actually created anything.

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

You said that "made" wasn't used. Well sure. But it's the same thing here:

Genesis 1:3-4 ESV
[3] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [4] And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness.

God spoke. Something happened. (But it doesn't say that God made anything) And God looked back and said that it was good.

Did God not actually create anything here?

God didn't make anything here either:

Genesis 1:11-12 ESV
[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

God never made anything here either. So what did God create on day 3?
 
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Job 33:6

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So that's an error.

Because that would imply that God spoke. Something happened. God looked back on it and said that it was Good, and then as it turns out, God never actually created anything.

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

You said that "made" wasn't used. Well sure. But it's the same thing here:

Genesis 1:3-4 ESV
[3] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [4] And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness.

God spoke. Something happened. (But it doesn't say that God made anything) And God looked back and said that it was good.

Did God not actually create anything here?

God didn't make anything here either:

Genesis 1:11-12 ESV
[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

God never made anything here either. So what did God create on day 3?
Also, if the heavens were already created in verse 1, then what did God create on day 2 when He said that He created Heaven? Did God not actually create heaven because he had already created the heavens beforehand? What, heaven isn't a part of the heavens now?

Genesis 1:7-8 ESV
[7] And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. [8] And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

@David Lamb this response of yours raises other issues as well. But curious what you'll say so I'll hold off on continuing.
 
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Platte

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So what did God create then, if not the dry land, when he spoke in verse 9?
Mountains, valleys, canyons, prairies, plains, etc. (The earths topography)

He gathered the water together by creating the earths topography.

By gathering the water together the dry land appeared.
 
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Job 33:6

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Mountains, valleys, canyons, prairies, plains, etc. (The earths topography)

He gathered the water together by creating the earths topography.

By gathering the water together the dry land appeared.

Ok. So God created topography. Topography has to be of something. Right? Topography of the moon. Topography of mars etc.

So God created topography of the earth. As you said, he gave the earth form, so that it was no longer formless, right?

So when God created in verses 9-10. What God was doing was, giving form or giving topography to the earth.

And as a result of God creating, and giving the Earth form, Earth appeared.

Would you agree with this assessment?
 
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Platte

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Ok. So God created topography. Topography has to be of something. Right? Topography of the moon. Topography of mars etc.
God gave the earth form by shaping topography to the earth that he created in Genesis 1:1
So God created topography of the earth. As you said, he gave the earth form, so that it was no longer formless, right?
Yes topography to the earth he created (Genesis 1:1) without form (Genesis 1:2)
So when God created in verses 9-10. What God was doing was, giving form or giving topography to the earth.
He gave the earth topography to the earth he created in Genesis 1:1. In day 1 God created the heaven and the earth.
And as a result of God creating, and giving the Earth form, Earth appeared.
Giving the earth topography caused the waters to gather together and when enough water gathered, dry land appeared.
Would you agree with this assessment?
You are getting close. Just understand that God created the heaven and the earth in Genesis 1:1. On day 1. The Bible is written straightforward and simple. Don’t feel the need to add or take anything out of it. God told you how Creation was done and in what order he created things. The Bible is not cryptic.
 
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Job 33:6

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God gave the earth form by shaping topography to the earth

Giving the earth topography caused the waters to gather together and when enough water gathered, dry land appeared.
Ok. And God called the dry land "Earth".

So essentially what you've described on day 3 are, ex materia events, God's creative action, in which God took that which was already there. Namely, the Earth, or eretz, and God adjusted the topography.

And I would agree with that.

So on day 3, When God speaks, and creates with the spoken Word, it is not as though anything is appearing out of thin air.

And thus, on day 3, God is creating, ex materia. And the subject or the object here, is the earth.

It isn't the moon that is being shaped. It is the earth. Earth is the subject of this "topography molding" activity of creation.

And curious, since the heavens were also already present, would you call day 2s creation also a "molding" kind of event when God created heaven?

Genesis 1:6-8 ESV
[6] And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [7] And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. [8] And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Also, if the heavens were already created in verse 1, then what did God create on day 2 when He said that He created Heaven? Did God not actually create heaven because he had already created the heavens beforehand? What, heaven isn't a part of the heavens now?

Genesis 1:7-8 ESV
[7] And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. [8] And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

@David Lamb this response of yours raises other issues as well. But curious what you'll say so I'll hold off on continuing.
As I pointed out earlier the word heavens can refer to several different places. Genesis 1 says that the sun, moon, and stars were placed in the expanse of the heavens and it also says that birds fly in the expanse of the heavens and the Bible says numerous times that God’s kingdom is in heaven, they’re not the same place. American Airlines doesn’t fly in God’s kingdom, NASA has never been to God’s kingdom, birds don’t fly amongst the stars. That’s why I said that Genesis 1:6-8 is referring to the atmosphere, the clouds, or the sky because they’re the only places that have water. The atmosphere is made up of hydrogen, oxygen, and argon which comes from water. The clouds are water in vapor form and the sky is an area (expanse) between the waters on earth and the atmosphere which is made up of the same elements as water. This is why it’s difficult to know which heavens are being referred to in Genesis 1:1. I would say it was probably space because I expect that God and the angels probably already had a place of residence before creation.
 
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Platte

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Ok. And God called the dry land "Earth".

So essentially what you've described on day 3 are, ex materia events, God's creative action, in which God took that which was already there. Namely, the Earth, or eretz, and God adjusted the topography.

And I would agree with that.
Yes he created the earth on day 1 so topography would have used the earth god created on day 1

So on day 3, When God speaks, and creates with the spoken Word, it is not as though anything is appearing out of thin air.
I won’t debate that at this time
And thus, on day 3, God is creating, ex materia. And the subject or the object here, is the earth.

It isn't the moon that is being shaped. It is the earth. Earth is the subject of this "topography molding" activity of creation.

And curious, since the heavens were also already present, would you call day 2s creation also a "molding" kind of event when God created heaven?
Yes heaven which is the entire space of the universe was created on day 1. Certainly the sky and atmosphere that God added on day 2 added to the heaven God created on day 1. But space is pretty empty so I’m not what is needed to create the atmosphere. Probably elements from earth.
Genesis 1:6-8 ESV
[6] And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [7] And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. [8] And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
Yeah like the dry land was called earth. The local sky was called heaven.
 
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David Lamb

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Ok. And God called the dry land "Earth".

So essentially what you've described on day 3 are, ex materia events, God's creative action, in which God took that which was already there. Namely, the Earth, or eretz, and God adjusted the topography.

And I would agree with that.

So on day 3, When God speaks, and creates with the spoken Word, it is not as though anything is appearing out of thin air.

And thus, on day 3, God is creating, ex materia. And the subject or the object here, is the earth.
But Genesis 1:9 doesn't say that God "created" the dry land. It says that He command the seas to be gathered together, so that the dry land would appear:

“Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry [land] appear"; and it was so.” (Ge 1:9 NKJV)

You cannot rightly use that as an argument for Genesis teaching ex materia creation.
 
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Job 33:6

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But Genesis 1:9 doesn't say that God "created" the dry land. It says that He command the seas to be gathered together, so that the dry land would appear:

“Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry [land] appear"; and it was so.” (Ge 1:9 NKJV)

You cannot rightly use that as an argument for Genesis teaching ex materia creation.
As already noted by Platte, God is creating topography of the earth, giving it form. God is addressing "tohu", the formlessness of the earth.

Whether that is simply moving water around to reveal topography, or whether it's molding the earths topography, or all of the above, one way or another, God is revealing topography. God is doing something with the water and something with the land, so that, when God is done, the earth appears. The form of the earth, it's topography becomes visible.
 
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Job 33:6

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Yes heaven which is the entire space of the universe was created on day 1. Certainly the sky and atmosphere that God added on day 2 added to the heaven God created on day 1. But space is pretty empty so I’m not what is needed to create the atmosphere. Probably elements from earth.

Yeah like the dry land was called earth. The local sky was called heaven.

Great.

I think everyone should at least be able to agree on this. @David Lamb @BNR32FAN

If God were not creating anything ex materia on day 3, forming that which was unformed, landforms and topography, that would force us into some precarious positions where we would be looking for things created ex nihilo on day 3.

Or even worse, we might end up in a bizarre position where we deny that God creates anything at all during at least some of the 6 days of creation.

If God isn't creating anything, not even topography, during day 3, we would end up with God creating everything on day 1, then not creating anything on any other day of the 6 days.

So God would speak. Things would happen, God would say "it was good" but as it turns out, God wasn't actually creating anything.

Genesis 1:3-5, 9-12 ESV
[3] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [4] And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. [5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.


[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.

[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.

@David Lamb

Unless David, you believe that perhaps God never actually created light, or that sometimes God doesn't actually create anything, depending on the day. Though this view would arguably contradict verse 2:1. It's just not intuitive that there would be 6 days of creation but that God wasn't actually creating anything during some of those days.

The alternative is accepting, at the very least, that God is actually creating something, during each day.
 
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Platte

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Great.

I think everyone should at least be able to agree on this. @David Lamb @BNR32FAN

If God were not creating anything ex materia on day 3, forming that which was unformed, landforms and topography, that would force us into some precarious positions where we would be looking for things created ex nihilo on day 3.

Or even worse, we might end up in a bizarre position where we deny that God creates anything at all during at least some of the 6 days of creation.

If God isn't creating anything, not even topography, during day 3, we would end up with God creating everything on day 1, then not creating anything on any other day of the 6 days.

So God would speak. Things would happen, God would say "it was good" but as it turns out, God wasn't actually creating anything.

Genesis 1:3-5, 9-12 ESV
[3] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [4] And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. [5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The past that's never actually says to God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.


[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The past that's never actually says to God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation

[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The past that's never actually says to God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation

@David Lamb
Ex materia is a really really bad doctrine. Why would even go there? You do understand what you’re implying with that?
 
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Job 33:6

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Great.

I think everyone should at least be able to agree on this. @David Lamb @BNR32FAN

If God were not creating anything ex materia on day 3, forming that which was unformed, landforms and topography, that would force us into some precarious positions where we would be looking for things created ex nihilo on day 3.

Or even worse, we might end up in a bizarre position where we deny that God creates anything at all during at least some of the 6 days of creation.

If God isn't creating anything, not even topography, during day 3, we would end up with God creating everything on day 1, then not creating anything on any other day of the 6 days.

So God would speak. Things would happen, God would say "it was good" but as it turns out, God wasn't actually creating anything.

Genesis 1:3-5, 9-12 ESV
[3] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [4] And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. [5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.


[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.

[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.

@David Lamb

Unless David, you believe that perhaps God never actually created light, or that sometimes God doesn't actually create anything, depending on the day. Though this view would arguably contradict verse 2:1. It's just not intuitive that there would be 6 days of creation but that God wasn't actually creating anything during some of those days.

The alternative is accepting, at the very least, that God is actually creating something, during each day.
And saying, "well God isn't creating anything in 9-10, the passages never say that God made anything" is just logically inconsistent. Because on Day 1 it also never says that God made the light. And the second half of day 3 with plants, also doesn't say that God made anything.

But one thing God did do, is God spoke. And as we all know, God creates with the spoken Word. Ie, that every time God speaks, a creative act is beginning.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes he created the earth on day 1 so topography would have used the earth god created on day 1


I won’t debate that at this time

Yes heaven which is the entire space of the universe was created on day 1. Certainly the sky and atmosphere that God added on day 2 added to the heaven God created on day 1. But space is pretty empty so I’m not what is needed to create the atmosphere. Probably elements from earth.

Yeah like the dry land was called earth. The local sky was called heaven.
The atmosphere is made up of hydrogen, oxygen, and argon which is basically water and air. Argon is everywhere in the air we breathe.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Great.

I think everyone should at least be able to agree on this. @David Lamb @BNR32FAN

If God were not creating anything ex materia on day 3, forming that which was unformed, landforms and topography, that would force us into some precarious positions where we would be looking for things created ex nihilo on day 3.

Or even worse, we might end up in a bizarre position where we deny that God creates anything at all during at least some of the 6 days of creation.

If God isn't creating anything, not even topography, during day 3, we would end up with God creating everything on day 1, then not creating anything on any other day of the 6 days.

So God would speak. Things would happen, God would say "it was good" but as it turns out, God wasn't actually creating anything.

Genesis 1:3-5, 9-12 ESV
[3] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [4] And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. [5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.


[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.

[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

And God said, and something happened, and it was good. The verse never actually says that God made something, but we still consider this an act of creation.

@David Lamb

Unless David, you believe that perhaps God never actually created light, or that sometimes God doesn't actually create anything, depending on the day. Though this view would arguably contradict verse 2:1. It's just not intuitive that there would be 6 days of creation but that God wasn't actually creating anything during some of those days.

The alternative is accepting, at the very least, that God is actually creating something, during each day.
Not true because the plants were still created on the third day so it doesn’t cause a problem with God not creating anything on the third day.
 
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