Creationists: how close is the Jewish Calandar to the age of the Earth?

[Platte]

I would say this isn't actually true. And we can go one by one through each question. I just gave my response to where earth is created ex materia in Genesis. The answer is, Day 3. That's what God does on day 3.

Genesis 1:9-13 NET
[9] God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place and let dry ground appear.” It was so. [10] God called the dry ground “land” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” God saw that it was good. [11] God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.” It was so. [12] The land produced vegetation – plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. God saw that it was good. [13] There was evening, and there was morning, a third day.

Sorry I may have missed it but I didn’t see any comments on light being created ex nihilo.

And if you don’t mind tell me again why the beginning of Creation did not start with God creating the heaven and the earth as stated in Genesis 1:1?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here's my response. And I've used this example several times as well.

Where was the earth created? The answer? Day 3:

Genesis 1:9-13 NIV
[9] And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. [11] Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. [12] The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

Day 3 begins with "and God said" because remember, God creates with the spoken word. And the day ends with "the third day".

And ive repeated this several times. All creation days begin with the spoken word.

On day 3, God creates earth. That's what God did on day 3. That's why it says "God called the dry ground "earth"" or eretz. It's the same word as earth.

Here's the ESV:
Genesis 1:10 ESV
[10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

And I'll go through each question 1 at a time, but first we have to begin by recognizing that God creates with the spoken word.

Just because He created some things with spoken word doesn’t mean that He created all things by spoken word. Where’d the water come from?

 

[Job 33:6]

Sorry I may have missed it but I didn’t see any comments on light being created ex nihilo.

Light isn't physical matter. There is nothing material to bring into existence.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here's my response. And I've used this example several times as well.

Where was the earth created? The answer? Day 3:

Genesis 1:9-13 NIV
[9] And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. [11] Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. [12] The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

Day 3 begins with "and God said" because remember, God creates with the spoken word. And the day ends with "the third day".

And ive repeated this several times. All creation days begin with the spoken word.

On day 3, God creates earth. That's what God did on day 3. That's why it says "God called the dry ground "earth"" or eretz. It's the same word as earth.

Here's the ESV:
Genesis 1:10 ESV
[10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

And I'll go through each question 1 at a time, but first we have to begin by recognizing that God creates with the spoken word.

Also what where does it say that He created the earth ex materia?

 

[David Lamb]

There, I just responded to the first question of post 168. The answer to where in Genesis that the earth is created is simple.

The earth is created with the spoken word on day 3.

Genesis 1:9-13 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. [11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

No, the heavens and the earth (the planet) were created on Day 1. It was that earth which was "without form and void". After its creation we're told:

“The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” (Ge 1:2 NKJV)

The dry land sense of earth came about by God gathering the waters together to form seas.

 

[Job 33:6]

Also what where does it say that He created the earth ex materia?

From the NET footnotes. The dry earth is revealed by the gathering of the seas overtop of it.

That is ex materia. Taking that which is already there, moving it and forming it, in creation. The earth is already there. It just needs to be revealed.

 

[Job 33:6]

No, the heavens and the earth (the planet) were created on Day 1. It was that earth which was "without form and void". After its creation we're told:

“The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” (Ge 1:2 NKJV)

The dry land sense of earth came about by God gathering the waters together to form seas.

The dry land sense of earth, as you seem to word it, that is the creation of the earth in Genesis.

What else do you think God is creating when he speaks in day 3? God certainly isn't creating the heavens in this one.

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

We only have so many options here. The story of when God created the heavens and the earth.

 

[David Lamb]

From the NET footnotes. The dry earth is revealed by the gathering of the seas overtop of it.

That is ex materia. Taking that which is already there, moving it and forming it, in creation. The earth is already there. It just needs to be revealed.

Two points: First, the NET footnotes are not the bible. Second, if the earth was already there, it had been created. That is why Genesis 1:1 and 2 both mention the earth, before verse 9 mentions dry land. Verse 2 speaks of the earth:

“The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” (Ge 1:2 NKJV)

"The earth was without form", not "The earth had not yet been created".

 

[Job 33:6]

The dry land sense of earth, as you seem to word it, that is the creation of the earth in Genesis.

What else do you think God is creating when he speaks in day 3? God certainly isn't creating the heavens in this one.

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

We only have so many options here. The story of when God created the heavens and the earth.

Let me just take a moment to emphasize what is in bold here.

And God Said, God called the dry land "Earth" and God saw that it was Good.

 

[Job 33:6]

Two points: First, the NET footnotes are not the bible. Second, if the earth was already there, it had been created. That is why Genesis 1:1 and 2 both mention the earth, before verse 9 mentions dry land. Verse 2 speaks of the earth:

“The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” (Ge 1:2 NKJV)

"The earth was without form", not "The earth had not yet been created".

Yoo hoo! Ex materia creation means giving form to that which is unformed.

Saying that it is without form means that it had not yet been created.

Hence day 3.

Genesis 2:1 ESV
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

That is days 1-3 the heavens and the earth.
Days 4-6 all the host in them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

View attachment 354825

From the NET footnotes. The dry earth is revealed by the gathering of the seas overtop of it.

That is ex materia. Taking that which is already there, moving it and forming it, in creation. The earth is already there. It just needs to be revealed.

But we already established that the earth didn’t already exist and that the earth was created within the 6 day time frame which means that if the earth was already there on day 3 then it was NOT created on day 3, it was raised above the waters on day 3, or the waters receded on day 3. Personally I think the earth was a solid chunk of dirt and rock at that time and God caused the earth to rise in places causing underground chasms that filled with water exposing dry land. But the point is that if the earth already existed under the water on day 3 and we know that it didn’t exist at one time and it was created during the 6 day creation process then when did it first come into existence?

 

[Job 33:6]

But we already established that the earth didn’t already exist and that the earth was created within the 6 day time frame which means that if the earth was already there on day 3 then it was NOT created on day 3, it was raised above the waters on day 3, or the waters receded on day 3. Personally I think the earth was a solid chunk of dirt and rock at that time and God caused the earth to rise in places causing underground chasms that filled with water exposing dry land. But the point is that if the earth already existed under the water on day 3 and we know that it didn’t exist at one time and it was created during the 6 day creation process then when did it first come into existence?

And as already established, creation didn't begin until verse 3 with the spoken word.

Again, what do you think God is creating here?

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

I'll give you hint. God isn't creating the heavens in this one.

This isn't a trick question. No need to think too hard about it.

 

[Job 33:6]

But we already established that the earth didn’t already exist and that the earth was created within the 6 day time frame

The material earth was already there. But it wasn't created until day 3.

That's correct that creation occurs in 6 days. That means that in one or more of those 6 days we should find verses about God creating the earth, right?

That's what it means for God to create in 6 days.

So... Day 3.

It isn't day 1. Day 1 is light. Paralleled with day 4, with God setting the sun and moon to rule the day and night.

It isn't day 2. God makes the expanse, in parallel with day 5, the host of the expanse, the fish and birds. Etc.

Day 3. The earth. In parallel with day 6, the host of the earth.

Genesis 2:1 ESV
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

 

[Job 33:6]

The material earth was already there. But it wasn't created until day 3.

That's correct that creation occurs in 6 days. That means that in one or more of those 6 days we should find verses about God creating the earth, right?

That's what it means for God to create in 6 days.

So... Day 3.

It isn't day 1. Day 1 is light. Paralleled with day 4, with God setting the sun and moon to rule the day and night.

It isn't day 2. God makes the expanse, in parallel with day 5, the host of the expanse, the fish and birds. Etc.

Day 3. The earth. In parallel with day 6, the host of the earth.

Genesis 2:1 ESV
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

@BNR32FAN @David Lamb

 

[David Lamb]

The material earth was already there. But it wasn't created until day 3.

That's correct that creation occurs in 6 days. That means that in one or more of those 6 days we should find verses about God creating the earth, right?

That's what it means for God to create in 6 days.

So... Day 3.

It isn't day 1. Day 1 is light. Paralleled with day 4, with God setting the sun and moon to rule the day and night.

It isn't day 2. God makes the expanse, in parallel with day 5, the host of the expanse, the fish and birds. Etc.

You have said before that according to you, the earth was there, in existence, but it wasn't created. How do you explain how something can exist without having been created? It really doesn't make sense. Creation isn't a matter of re-arranging something already in existence. Of course, people who don't believe in God at all say that the earth (or at least the material from which it is formed) has somehow always existed, but I assume on these forums we are writing from a Christian viewpoint.

 

[Job 33:6]

You have said before that according to you, the earth was there, in existence, but it wasn't created. How do you explain how something can exist without having been created? It really doesn't make sense. Of course, people who don't believe in God at all say that the earth (or at least the material from which it is formed) has somehow always existed, but I assume on these forums we are writing from a Christian viewpoint.

The creation is ex materia. That's how. Like if I create a pizza. The pizza is there, it's just formless and uncreated. And then I create it. perhaps by sticking it into the oven or rolling it etc.

And I'm not saying that the earth always existed. I'm just saying that Genesis is not an ex nihilo story.

Just because God created ex nihilo does not mandate that that story is told in Genesis.

 

[Job 33:6]

You have said before that according to you, the earth was there, in existence, but it wasn't created. How do you explain how something can exist without having been created? It really doesn't make sense. Creation isn't a matter of re-arranging something already in existence. Of course, people who don't believe in God at all say that the earth (or at least the material from which it is formed) has somehow always existed, but I assume on these forums we are writing from a Christian viewpoint.

Another example. A football team.

The football team at the beginning of recess has not yet been created. But the kids are there, lined up, waiting to be picked.

The team is there. It just hasn't been created yet. I do not need players to appear out of thin air in order to create a team. I can create something, even if materially it is already there beforehand.

Just like in Ezekiel when the son of man creates sign posts. Or in psalms when David asks God to create a clean heart in him.

Presumably David already had a heart beforehand.

Creation does not mandate that matter appear out of nothing.

And in Genesis, this is how it is.

Goes first create ex nihilo. But that's not part of Genesis. That's not what Genesis is about.

 

[David Lamb]

The creation is ex materia. That's how. Like if I create a pizza. The pizza is there, it's just formless and uncreated. And then I create it. perhaps by sticking it into the oven or rolling it etc.

And I'm not saying that the earth always existed. I'm just saying that Genesis is not an ex nihilo story.

Just because God created ex nihilo does not mandate that that story is told in Genesis.

You're doing it again, making the assumption. "The creation is ex materia. That's how." Obviously when you make a pizza, it goes without saying that you need ingredients and an oven, but God didn't.

 

[Job 33:6]

You have said before that according to you, the earth was there, in existence, but it wasn't created. How do you explain how something can exist without having been created? It really doesn't make sense. Creation isn't a matter of re-arranging something already in existence. Of course, people who don't believe in God at all say that the earth (or at least the material from which it is formed) has somehow always existed, but I assume on these forums we are writing from a Christian viewpoint.

One more example. A painting. I can create a painting. And the paint is already there. But it needs my artistic hand to make it "good". So I take my hug, my compass. And I begin drawing the paint into something beautiful.

I have created a painting even though the paint was there before I began.

Job 26:10 ESV
[10] He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.

That's what that means.

Job 26:10 NET
[10] He marks out the horizon (a circle) on the surface of the waters as a boundary between light and darkness.

God drew it out. As if with a compass. Like a work of art.

 

[Job 33:6]

You're doing it again, making the assumption. "The creation is ex materia. That's how." Obviously when you make a pizza, it goes without saying that you need ingredients and an oven, but God didn't.

So you're asking questions that you already have the answers to?

You asked me to tell you where earth was created. I responded.

Again, what else do you think is being created here if not the earth?

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.


And God said...God called the dry land "Earth". And God saw that it was good.

Am I assuming ex materia creation here? No. I'm just reading the Bible.

God spoke.
Earth appeared.
God saw that it was good.

That's creation.