Creationists: how close is the Jewish Calandar to the age of the Earth?

[Job 33:6]

Paul wasn’t quoting Genesis. How did Paul know when God chose the elect?

Paul is not the context for Genesis. Paul is not Moses. The question is, what did Moses and the ancient Israelites have to say about creation, this isn't about what Paul thought many centuries later.

When we read Psalm 68, we don't turn to Ephesians 4 to tell us what it means.

And if he's not talking about Genesis, then he's not talking about Genesis.

 

[Job 33:6]

What verse in Psalms 68 is Paul quoting because I don’t see anything in Psalms 68 that resembles what he said in Ephesians 4:8.

Are you new to Bible study?

Ephesians 4:8-10 NIV
[8] This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” [9] (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? [10] He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Psalms 68:17-20 NIV
[17] The chariots of God are tens of thousands and thousands of thousands; the Lord has come from Sinai into his sanctuary. [18] When you ascended on high, you took many captives; you received gifts from people, even from the rebellious— that you, Lord God, might dwell there. [19] Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior, who daily bears our burdens. [20] Our God is a God who saves; from the Sovereign Lord comes escape from death.

This is Ephesians 4, 101. If you weren't aware of this, then you shouldn't be trying to quote ephesians with relation to Genesis.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's not correct. To say that would imply Old Testament Bible scholars believe that the Bible is a fairy tale. The topic is much more nuanced than that.

NASB Amos 9:6 for example describes God walking on the dome of the earth. But nobody would accuse the NASB translators of suggesting that the Bible is a fairy tale.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

Job 22:14 NASB2020
[14] ‘Clouds are a hiding place for Him, so that He cannot see; And He walks on the vault of heaven.’

The guy in the video said that Genesis 1:6-8 was written that way because that’s how the Jews would’ve perceived what they observe when they look in the sky because of their understanding of pagan Egyptian creation theology.

He also said that the Egyptians had many beliefs on how the pagan gods created including spinning, touching yourself, and speaking, and that Moses CHOSE to use speaking into existence over the other methods. This is a blatant indication that his position is that Moses was not writing an inspired record of what took place at creation but instead that Moses was writing from his own ideas. If Moses was writing from divine revelation then he wouldn’t be choosing the method that God used to bring about the existence of creation, that method would’ve been revealed to him by God as an actual record of the events that took place. The fact that he says that Moses CHOSE God speaking into existence indicates that his position is that the information given in Genesis 1 derived from Moses’ own opinion and not from divine revelation. If Moses was simply writing what was revealed to him then he wouldn't have needed to choose which method God used to create things into existence. This guy’s whole argument is that Moses wrote what he thought people would understand, not what God had revealed to him which means that if it wasn’t revealed to Moses by God then none of it can be true because no one but God and the angels were present to witness creation. Hence, he is saying that Genesis 1 isn’t a record of events it’s just a fairy tale.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul is not the context for Genesis. Paul is not Moses. The question is, what did Moses and the ancient Israelites have to say about creation, this isn't about what Paul thought many centuries later.

When we read Psalm 68, we don't turn to Ephesians 4 to tell us what it means.

And if he's not talking about Genesis, then he's not talking about Genesis.

This is twice that you didn’t answer my question. How did Paul know when God chose the elect? That information isn’t given in the OT. where did he get it from? Did he just make it up?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are you new to Bible study?

Ephesians 4:8-10 NIV
[8] This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” [9] (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? [10] He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Psalms 68:17-20 NIV
[17] The chariots of God are tens of thousands and thousands of thousands; the Lord has come from Sinai into his sanctuary. [18] When you ascended on high, you took many captives; you received gifts from people, even from the rebellious— that you, Lord God, might dwell there. [19] Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior, who daily bears our burdens. [20] Our God is a God who saves; from the Sovereign Lord comes escape from death.

This is Ephesians 4, 101. If you weren't aware of this, then you shouldn't be trying to quote ephesians with relation to Genesis.

If you’re such a scholar on the book of Ephesians then you shouldn’t have had any problem answering the question that I asked you twice. How did Paul know when God chose His elect?

I didn’t see that portion in Psalms 68, I skimmed thru it twice because I’m at work and didn’t have my glasses on which is why I asked which verses you’re referring to.

 

[Job 33:6]

This is twice that you didn’t answer my question. How did Paul know when God chose the elect? That information isn’t given in the OT. where did he get it from? Did he just make it up?

Paul received revelation from God on the election of people.

As noted however, again, Paul isn't the author of Genesis. He lived many centuries after Moses. In a different time, different place. With a different contextual background. Different philosophical predispositions, different language, different culture. Etc.

Paul's revelation with respect to the timing of election, does not influence the question of how Moses and the Israelites thought of creation.

And similar to Ephesians 4 and Psalm 68, which you apparently didn't know about? Is a simple example of how trying to read the new testament backwards into the old testament is unreliable. Because more often than not, the new testament authors are not re-telling old testament narratives when they reference them. Ephesians 1 has nothing to do with Genesis.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul is not the context for Genesis. Paul is not Moses. The question is, what did Moses and the ancient Israelites have to say about creation, this isn't about what Paul thought many centuries later.

When we read Psalm 68, we don't turn to Ephesians 4 to tell us what it means.

And if he's not talking about Genesis, then he's not talking about Genesis.

You say “this isn’t about what Paul thought” are you insinuating that Ephesians 1:4 came from Paul’s imagination? That he just made it up? Are you saying that what Paul said in Ephesians 1:4 wasn’t revealed to him from God and it isn’t actually true?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul received revelation from God on the election of people.

Amen and apparently part of that revelation was when God chose His elect, which was before the foundation of the world.

 

[Job 33:6]

Amen and apparently part of that revelation was when God chose His elect, which was before the foundation of the world.

Yes, and this has nothing to do with Genesis. Are you ready to talk about Genesis now?

 

[Job 33:6]

You say “this isn’t about what Paul thought” are you insinuating that Ephesians 1:4 came from Paul’s imagination? That he just made it up? Are you saying that what Paul said in Ephesians 1:4 wasn’t revealed to him from God and it isn’t actually true?

What Paul said is true, but again, has nothing to do with Genesis.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, and this has nothing to do with Genesis. Are you ready to talk about Genesis now?

I never said it had anything to do with Genesis. I said that it reveals that the earth didn’t just always exist, therefore it had to have been created. And Genesis 2:2-3 says that God rested on the 7th day from all His work which He had created and made. This means that the foundation of the earth had to have been created during the 6 day creation process. This information reveals that Genesis 1:1 had to have taken place on the first day otherwise God would’ve worked more than 6 days on all His work that He had created and made.

 

[Job 33:6]

I never said it had anything to do with Genesis. I said that it reveals that the earth didn’t just always exist, therefore it had to have been created. And Genesis 2:2-3 says that God rested on the 7th day from all His work which He had created and made. This means that the foundation of the earth had to have been created during the 6 day creation process. This information reveals that Genesis 1:1 had to have taken place on the first day otherwise God would’ve worked more than 6 days on all His work that He had created and made.

A. Nobody ever said that the earth always existed.
B. Nobody said that it wasn't created.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A. Nobody ever said that the earth always existed.
B. Nobody said that it wasn't created.

But your whole argument is that the earth wasn’t created on the first day mentioned in Genesis 1:1. Whether you want to use “in the beginning” or “when God began” it doesn’t matter, either way He must begin with the creation of the earth before He can form it and it has to be within the 6 day creation process in order for Him to rest on the 7th day from all His work that He created and made.

 

[Job 33:6]

But your whole argument is that the earth wasn’t created on the first day mentioned in Genesis 1:1. Whether you want to use “in the beginning” or “when God began” it doesn’t matter, either way He must begin with the creation of the earth before He can form it and it has to be within the 6 day creation process in order for Him to rest on the 7th day from all His work that He created and made.

My position is not about what God did or did not do. My position is about what Genesis is talking about. I never said that God didnt create the universe ex nihilo. Rather the question is, what is Genesis talking about?

You aren't the author of Genesis. Your opinion does not define what the text is saying.

Saying "He must begin with the creation of the Earth" (ex nihilo).

Says who? Why do you think that the story must start that way? (Ex nihilo)

And don't say "Paul", because remember, Paul isn't talking about Genesis.

 

[Job 33:6]

You aren't the author of Genesis. Your opinion does not define what the text is saying.

Saying "He must begin with the creation of the Earth".

Says who? Why do you think that the story must start that way? (Ex nihilo)

And don't say "Paul", because remember, Paul isn't talking about Genesis.

If I tell a story about how I baked a pizza, is it necessary for me to talk about the origins of all matter in the known universe in order to do so?

No.

Whether God created ex nihilo or not, has no bearing on whether or not Genesis (or Moses) has to tell that story.

If Moses wants to tell an ex materia story, then we can't change that just because we might feel uncomfortable with it.

If I want to talk about how I made a pizza in the oven, rather than telling you the story about the material atomic origins of my pizza, then you just have to let me tell the story about my oven baked pizza, rather than trying to force me to talk about the big bang.

Do you see what I mean?

If I'm having a pizza party, and I want to talk about my pizza, then let it be. We don't need to turn it into a discussion about astronomy and how the carbon atoms of my pizza came from a supernova.

Even if it's true that the carbon atoms of my pizza came from a supernova, if that's not the story that I want to tell, then it's not right for someone to barge in and start changing my story into something that it's not.

 

[AlexB23]

If you can’t believe the words of Moses how can you believe the words of Jesus. When and how long Creation took God matters.

I believe Jesus, cos he is God and Man. I also believe Moses, but if I were to put my trust into one figure in the Bible above all else, it would be Jesus Himself.

 

[AlexB23]

I’m not trying to cause division brother just engaging in the discussion.

Haha, same here, brother, same here. Though, I do prefer studying the New Testament, and I have to get to a devotional on Spiritual Warfare, cos we are pretty much in the End Times leading up to the Tribulation. I feel that Christians should discuss the End Times more, compared to the Creation, as we must try to tell others the signs of the times, and show them that Jesus is a way to win the battle against evil.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My position is not about what God did or did not do. My position is about what Genesis is talking about. I never said that God didnt create the universe ex nihilo. Rather the question is, what is Genesis talking about?

You aren't the author of Genesis. Your opinion does not define what the text is saying.

Saying "He must begin with the creation of the Earth" (ex nihilo).

Says who? Why do you think that the story must start that way? (Ex nihilo)

And don't say "Paul", because remember, Paul isn't talking about Genesis.

I’m not even arguing about ex nihilo or ex materia, just that Genesis 1:1 does include the creation of the earth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you can’t believe the words of Moses how can you believe the words of Jesus. When and how long Creation took God matters.

Jesus actually said this in John 5

“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?””
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭46‬-‭47‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Haha, same here, brother, same here. Though, I do prefer studying the New Testament, and I have to get to a devotional on Spiritual Warfare, cos we are pretty much in the End Times leading up to the Tribulation. I feel that Christians should discuss the End Times more, compared to the Creation, as we must try to tell others the signs of the times, and show them that Jesus is a way to win the battle against evil.

Oh I’m pretty much lost in eschatology. To me the end times prophecies are too ambiguous to formulate any sort of solid doctrine on so I don’t even try to.