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Jer 31:31-34

DamianWarS

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Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people
You are conflating "laws" with the 10 commandments where the text never supports this, nor does scripture support separating the 10 from their covenant, the worst part is you're treating this like a mic drop argument. This argument is a non-starter until you can satisfy it's most basic point, that the 10 are separated from their covenant. You seem to fail to see by exalting the 10 this way you are carelessly throwing out all the other laws. They are one package, and I don't mean to start ripping them apart or dishonor them by throwing large chunks away. Stop manipulating scripture to support your doctrines.
 
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daq

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Actually it literally says in the side of the ark. It's more like the scroll mentioned, (now called Deuteronomy), was to face outward from the side of the ark in such a manner that it could be read by the Kohanim, (Priests).

Imagine something like a one-sided window in the side of the ark with the scroll inside it on rollers: this would be very similar to how the entire Torah scroll was later placed in similarly designed protective casings which open up in order for the scroll to be read. It is not difficult to imagine the (Deuteronomy) scroll placed in the side of the ark, facing outward, in much the same manner as the below image file.

330px-SeferTorah.jpg


And in the side is precisely what the KJV says in the passage, having rendered it correctly:

Deuteronomy 31:26
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

It was placed there for a witness because it was facing outward, from within the side of the ark, so that it might be read by the Kohanim, (without needing to take the lid off the ark), and taught to the people. I am not sure how that might affect peoples' arguments here but what it does show is that the scroll in question was also part of the ark: the difference is inward, (the Ten), and outward, (the understanding flowing from the Ten).

The symbolism is the same typology as the ark which Noah was commanded to build: for the ark of Noah also had a "wound" in the side of it to accommodate the door.

Genesis 6:14-16 KJV
14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

Both the ark of Noah and the ark of the Covenant each had a wound/opening in the side: in the ark of Noah it was to accommodate the door, and in the ark of the Covenant it was to accommodate the side window with the Scroll in it, (thus, a heavenly window because it contained the Word of the Most High).

This symbolism of the wound in the side goes all the way back to the first man Adam, when a rib was taken from his side in order to make him a counterpart-bride-wife, and the symbolism is fulfilled in Meshiah at Golgotha, (John 19:34).

John 19:34 KJV
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

And the blood and the water testify, for he paid for his Testimony with his own blood, and therefore his Testimony is not only Spirit, John 6:63, (which also testifies, 1 John 5:8), but likewise his Testimony is tantamount to his blood because it is the living water of the Word which he paid for with his blood. King David also testifies concerning the correlation between good deeds/works/testimony and the blood of the doer of such things.

2 Samuel 23:14-17 KJV (1 Chronicles11:16-19)
14 And David was then in an hold, and the garrison of the Philistines was then in Bethlehem.
15 And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!
16 And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the LORD.
17 And he said, Be it far from me, O LORD, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men.

Bethlehem literally means house of bread, thus, in the symbolism, we have both the bread of life and the living water in the phrase the well of Bethlehem.

The Scroll of Mishneh haTorah, (Deuteronomy), is not only a witness/testimony but also a heavenly window into the mind of Elohim which was placed in the side of the ark of the Covenant. Those dividing the Torah are setting aside the heavenly window into the mind of Elohim, (Sefer Mishneh haTorah ~ Deuteronomy), while claiming to see and understand what is inside.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You are conflating "laws" with the 10 commandments where the text never supports this, nor does scripture support separating the 10 from their covenant, the worst part is you're treating this like a mic drop argument. This argument is a non-starter until you can satisfy it's most basic point, that the 10 are separated from their covenant. You seem to fail to see by exalting the 10 this way you are carelessly throwing out all the other laws. They are one package, and I don't mean to start ripping them apart or dishonor them by throwing large chunks away. Stop manipulating scripture to support your doctrines.
Law is a generic term, it could mean the Ten Commandments or could mean the law of Moses, which comes in many different categories Neh 9:13

For example Paul uses law and commandments interchangeable the context will always tell us what law is being referred to if we allow the Text to interpret itself.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” The "law" Paul is referring to is obviously the Ten Commandments as we only find thou shalt not covet in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:17

Also something that is perfect, blessed and holy by God never becomes contrary or against. If one does not have a good understanding of the different laws and their purposes, chances, are they are not keeping what God wants them to and going against the very teachings of Jesus Christ. Seems like a terrible idea to me, but we are given free will

How many laws do you find in this statement?

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

God only numbered one law and in doing so He Himself separated them for all other laws. No one ever stated we throw out all the other laws, but they are not the same as the Ten Commandments. God writing the Perfect Creator of everything, versus man writing the creation, even Moses gave God credit for God's work Exo 32:16 if one can't see the difference, not much I can say to help.

You claim the Ten Commandments are not separated by the other laws, but isn't that the argument you just tried to make?
You are conflating "laws" with the 10 commandments where the text never supports this
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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Why is the Spirit trying to write the 10 commandments upon my heart? is it not already written out? why does it need to be written out again? wouldn't it be easier to just say to keep that which is already written and widely available?

Good point!

God separated the Ten Commandments apart from all the other laws of Moses.

2 Kings 21:8 and I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers—only if they are careful to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them.

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might [d]observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.

And means in addition to, not the same as.

Sadly man tries to make them as the same, when God didn't. God writing- the Creator of Heaven and Earth- no greater Authority than He. The Ten Commandments started way before the law of Moses. God just wrote them on stone at Mt Sinai and spoke them to the Nation of Israel which represents God's people.
thank you I have forgotten kings!

Blessings.
 
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DamianWarS

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Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” The "law" Paul is referring to is obviously the Ten Commandments as we only find thou shalt not covet in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:17
The reference is of the old covenant to which the 10 are well known. Paul's point is what the role of law (Torah) played. His point is certainly not to declare the 10 are separated from the old covenant and we should keep/bound by them.
How many laws do you find in this statement?

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
Law, in terms of Torah, is a much broader word to which ordinances, laws, statutes and commandments are found within. The 10 commandments are not the 10 laws or are not "the law", they are commandments found in law (Torah)
You claim the Ten Commandments are not separated by the other laws, but isn't that the argument you just tried to make?
No it isn't. I'm saying you are conflating new covenant terminology with the 10 commandments without support thus separating them from their covenant. Either pull out the whole covenant or none of it, but don't cut it up and value only part of it while sweeping the rest under a rug.

NT terminology of "God's Commandments" are very resonably explained by comparing/contrasting 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6 and Gal 6:15. This is a very clear and concise support to show what "commandments" mean on multiple levels 1. It is the same author (Paul) and 2. It is the same context, and 3. The verses are mirror versions of each other. So their meaning should all be the same. Your support on the other hand is "Law = 10 commandments" without any biblical reference that's says this. I get you really want this but how can I accept such a doctrine with such weak support when there is much stronger support for new covenant teaching without the need to super impose the 10 commanments over every spot that uses the word commandments.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The reference is of the old covenant to which the 10 are well known. Paul's point is what the role of law (Torah) played. His point is certainly not to declare the 10 are separated from the old covenant and we should keep them.
So we can covet in New Covenant and sin. Is this what Paul is teaching. No wonder why we have this warning 2 Peter 3:16
Law, in terms of Torah, is a much broader word to which ordinances, laws, statutes and commandments are found within. The 10 commandments are not the 10 laws or are not "the law", they are commandments found in law (Torah)

No it isn't. I'm saying you are conflating new covenant terminology with the 10 commandments without support thus separating them from their covenant. Either pull out the whole covenant or none of it, but don't cut it up and value only part of it while sweeping the rest under a rug.

NT terminology of "God's Commandments" are very resonably explained by comparing/contrasting 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6 and Gal 6:15. This is a very clear and concise support to show what "commandments" mean on multiple levels 1. It is the same author (Paul) and 2. It is the same context, and 3. The verses are mirror versions of each other. So their meaning should all be the same. Your support on the other hand is "Law = 10 commandments" without any biblical reference that's says this. I get you really want this but how can I accept such a doctrine with such weak support when there is much stronger support for new covenant teaching without the need to super impose the 10 commanments over every spot that uses the word commandments.
Was Jesus misinformed by calling what you call the "Old Covenant" the commandment of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments?

Matthew 15:3 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; only found in the Ten Commandments Exo 20:12

He condemned those for breaking God's commandments in lieu of their own traditions- going so far as saying one heart is far from Him. Mat 15:8 Exactly where God place His law in the New Covenant- right in the hearts and minds of God's people. That why Jesus taught when we break the least of these commandments one would be least in heaven and fear of sin and judgement Mat 5:19-30 because its not just rebelling against God's law- its rebellion against God Rom 8:7-8

I have learned we can't reason with one who thinks their ideas are equal to God's Word, so I am going to let it stand as agree to disagree and all gets sorted out soon enough. I do wish you well in seeking Truth to God's Word.
 
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DamianWarS

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When Jesus tells us what something means, repeating from previous Exo 20:6 that is not anecdotal. Nothing hijacked, just believing His every Word.
Jesus is not telling us that "commandments" is limited to only the 10 even if he uses the 5th to rebuke the Pharisees and expose their hearts. those two points can be mutually exclusive, Jesus doesn't need to declare the 10 are separated from the law to make a point with one of the 10 commandments. Why can't it be exactly what he did, exposing the Pharisees?
 
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DamianWarS

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I have a legitimate question for all , did Jesus explicitly taught the law of Moses other than the ten commandments, can someone provide verses?

thank you.
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I have a legitimate question for all , did Jesus explicitly taught the law of Moses other than the ten commandments, can someone provide verses?

thank you.
Jesus taught a lot on the Ten Commandments.

When asked which ones to keep for eternal life He quoted directly from the Ten and the greatest commandment. There is a principle in the scriptures you quote from one of the Ten, it means all of them Deut 4:13 James 2:10-12 just like when you only quote one of the greatest commandments, it doesn’t mean the other one becomes deleted, it means both.

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”



He taught on the Ten Commandments that we should obey them over obeying our own rules/traditions Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”


He taught on the Ten teaching not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments. He taught not only to not break them, but not even have the thoughts that leads to breaking them and better to pluck out an eye than to break them.

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment
. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’[f] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says,[g]‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of [h]hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
27 “You have heard that it was said [i]to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to [j]sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to [k]sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


He taught on the greatest commandments which are the Ten Commandments summarized Rom 13:9. It’s a hard case some try to make we can love God with all our heart mind and soul but not obey His commandments. It’s another hard case some try to make the Ten Commandments are not the commandments of God- when God personally wrote them and called them His commandments Exo 20:6. As if man, the creation knows better than our God the Creator of everything.
 
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Soyeong

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I see this verse come up so let's have a look at it.



So according to Jeremiah, there are days coming when there will be a new covenant with the people of Israel (v31) that will be unlike the old covenant established at Sinai (v32). And the covenant will be unique in that it will be put upon their minds and written upon their hearts (v33) and this covenant is a universal covenant for all people (v34) which defines the "people of Israel" in v31 more abstractly, not specific to location/time/people group.

To rehash this:
it is a new covenant for Israel which is a new Israel that includes all people groups (v31/v34)
it is unlike the old (v32)
dynamic and living (written upon their hearts) (v33)
universal (v34)
In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant is only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, so verses 34 is speaking in regard to that context, not saying anything about being universal or redefining the house of Israel and Judah.

The Sinai covenant was written on stone tablets and the tablets themselves were called the "tablets of covenant law" and the 4th was a sign of the covenant (Ex 31), everything about this points to covenant boundaries. The covenant was also exclusive, outsiders had a process to be accepted within but in practice, this was a covenant for a specific people group.

This new covenant does not re-print the 10 commandments "as it" in the old covenant nor any other law "as is". instead, it is living, and dynamic, written upon our hearts and is meant for all people. If it includes the 10, it is not at face value, and is with new revelation, living and dynamic, the antithesis to being made of stone and is Spirit-led not tablet-led.
In Deuteronomy 30, it prophesies about a time when Israel will return form exile, God will circumcise their hearts, and they will return to obedience to the Torah, which Jeremiah 31:31-33 is speaking in regard to. Likewise, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the context is in regard to Israel returning from exile and it describes God as circumcising our hearts by means of the Spirit by saying that God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us to obey the Torah. So the New Covenant all about Israel returning to obedience to the Torah. The Torah being put in our minds and writing on our hearts does not involve doing anything other than the Torah. For example, the command to honor our parents written on stone has the same content as the command to honor our parents written on our hearts.

2 Corinthians 3:3
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

I'm confused about how the Jeremiah text can be used to pull the 10 commandments out of the covenant they are explicitly bound to and then inject them into the new when it says the complete opposite. I have heard it said that the 10 are at the very least included from this Jeremiah text's reference to law be written upon our hearts. But I don't see that at all, what's written on our hearts is quite explicitly not the 10 commandments.
The Torah contains 613 commandments, ten of which are the Ten Commandments, so those who do not want to obey the Torah do not want to come under the New Covenant. The Bible is abundantly clear that the New Covenant involves following the Torah, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, and that obedience to it leads to life, so that should influence how we understand 2 Corinthians 3.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, and in Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed as desires or works of the flesh that are against the Torah are also against the Spirit while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew, and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah.

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, the Torah is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, the Torah is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are give the right to eat from the Tree of Life.
 
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daq

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Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

That's the first thing I also thought when I read the question from the other poster.
However, I would have included the verse references from the Torah, (Dt 6:5 and Lev 19:18).
So, indeed, the two greatest commandments are not explicitly-openly stated in the Ten.

They flow from the Ten, by logic and reasoning, just as the whole Torah does.
 
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DamianWarS

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In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant is only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, so verses 34 is speaking in regard to that context, not saying anything about being universal or redefining the house of Israel and Judah.


In Deuteronomy 30, it prophesies about a time when Israel will return form exile, God will circumcise their hearts, and they will return to obedience to the Torah, which Jeremiah 31:31-33 is speaking in regard to. Likewise, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the context is in regard to Israel returning from exile and it describes God as circumcising our hearts by means of the Spirit by saying that God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us to obey the Torah. So the New Covenant all about Israel returning to obedience to the Torah. The Torah being put in our minds and writing on our hearts does not involve doing anything other than the Torah. For example, the command to honor our parents written on stone has the same content as the command to honor our parents written on our hearts.


The Torah contains 613 commandments, ten of which are the Ten Commandments, so those who do not want to obey the Torah do not want to come under the New Covenant. The Bible is abundantly clear that the New Covenant involves following the Torah, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, and that obedience to it leads to life, so that should influence how we understand 2 Corinthians 3.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, and in Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed as desires or works of the flesh that are against the Torah are also against the Spirit while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew, and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah.

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, the Torah is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, the Torah is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are give the right to eat from the Tree of Life.
spiritual Israel/Judah and spiritual torah. we know we are grafted into the tree (Rom 11:11-31), Christ himself says he can turn stones into the sons of Abraham (Mat 3:9) we know circumcision as a literal cutting of the flesh is meaningless (1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15) and subsequently the value is spiritualized (Col 2:11) despite it being a sign of an everlasting covenant between Abraham and God that is explicitly in the flesh (Gen 7:7, Gen 7:13). We know Christ's law is to love your neighbour as yourself (Mar 12:30-31, Gal 6:2, 1 Cor 9:21, Jam 2:8) we know this fulfills Torah (Rom 13:8-10, Gal 5:14) We also know "doing good" is lawful on the Sabbath (Mat 12:12) so what then is written on our hearts? the cutting of flesh or the focus upon the new creation by love expressed through Christ? An analysis of 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15 will conclude the latter. If we superimpose the letter of the 10 commandments, including the 4th "as is" upon our hearts then we discredit what Christ has done, and with it all that the flesh brings and as 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15 say, they are meaningless.
 
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DamianWarS

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They flow from the Ten, by logic and reasoning, just as the whole Torah does.
which is what Jesus states but even though I may not murder my neighbour, steal from him, lie to him, covet his belongings or sleep with his wife I may still harbour hate for him in my heart. the former keeps the 10 but the latter breaks the whole thing. NT writers reveal that it is the focus of latter, which is love for neighbour, that fulfills the former, not the other way around. (Rom 13:8-10, Gal 5:14). So our focus should be the latter under Christ, not the former. In this way we don't throw out circumcision we embrace it's true meaning, we don't throw out Sabbath or the 10, we embrace their true meaning, all under Christ. The product of which is a transformed heart, not merely a change of action.
 
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Soyeong

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spiritual Israel/Judah and spiritual torah. we know we are grafted into the tree (Rom 11:11-31),
It is only through becoming joined to Israel through faith in Christ that Gentiles are able to partake of the New Covenant (Ephesians 2:12-19).

Christ himself says he can turn stones into the sons of Abraham (Mat 3:9)
In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him and the Torah is the works that they should be doing. In Psalms 119:1-3, the Torah is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and a blessing the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nation from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom.

we know circumcision as a literal cutting of the flesh is meaningless (1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15)
While Paul said that circumcision has no value and that what matters is obeying the commandments of God (1 Corinthians 7:19), he also said that circumcision has much value in every way (Romans 3:1-2) and that circumcision conditionally has value if we keep the Torah (Romans 2:25), so the issue is that circumcision has no inherent value and that its value is entirely derived from whether we keep the Torah.

and subsequently the value is spiritualized (Col 2:11) despite it being a sign of an everlasting covenant between Abraham and God that is explicitly in the flesh (Gen 7:7, Gen 7:13).
Someone having a circumcised heart has never referred to anything other than them living in obedience to the Torah (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Deuteronomy 30:6, Jeremiah 9:25, Romans 2:25, Acts 7:51-53)

We know Christ's law is to love your neighbour as yourself (Mar 12:30-31, Gal 6:2, 1 Cor 9:21, Jam 2:8) we know this fulfills Torah (Rom 13:8-10, Gal 5:14)
Everything in the Torah is either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandment hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Torah, which is why love fulfills the Torah. The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of the Torah to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. In other words, someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable for someone who was correctly living in obedience to the Torah because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow.

We also know "doing good" is lawful on the Sabbath (Mat 12:12) so what then is written on our hearts?
Some of God's commands appear to conflict with each other, such as when God commanded priests to rest on the Sabbath while also commanding priests to make offerings on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:9-10), however, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by breaking one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that the lesser command was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater command from being obeyed. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 12:5-7 that priests who did their duties on the Sabbath were held innocent, why David and his men were held innocent, and why Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent, so this is not contrary to the Torah being written on our hearts.

the cutting of flesh or the focus upon the new creation by love expressed through Christ?
False dichotomy.

An analysis of 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15 will conclude the latter. If we superimpose the letter of the 10 commandments, including the 4th "as is" upon our hearts then we discredit what Christ has done, and bring with it all that the flesh brings and as 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15 say, they are meaningless.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way e walked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20) while returning to the lawlessness that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from is the way to discredit what he has done. The Torah is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to accept Christ while rejecting the Torah.
 
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daq

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which is what Jesus states but even though I may not murder my neighbour, steal from him, lie to him, covet his belongings or sleep with his wife I may still harbour hate for him in my heart. the former keeps the 10 but the latter breaks the whole thing. NT writers reveal that it is the focus of latter, which is love for neighbour, that fulfills the former, not the other way around. (Rom 13:8-10, Gal 5:14). So our focus should be the latter under Christ, not the former. In this way we don't throw out circumcision we embrace it's true meaning, we don't throw out Sabbath or the 10, we embrace their true meaning, all under Christ. The product of which is a transformed heart, not merely a change of action.

How is it that all the people wanting to tells us about the Torah cannot understand that the Torah is spiritual and supernal? Even the commandment to honor your father and your mother is deeper than your physical father and mother and rather includes your heavenly Father and your heavenly Mother, whom Paul expounds for us by the scripture in Galatians 4 where he quotes from the Prophet Yeshayah, a passage that reveals that the typology of Yerushalem of above, (our mother-covenant), is the Mishkan-Tabernacle of the Torah.

Please note that the last verse in this quote is Yeshayah-Isaiah 54:1.

Galatians 4:22-27 KJV
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. [Isa 54:1]

Paul was not a cherry-picker: he surely intends the context surrounding what he quotes from in Gal 4:27.

Isaiah 54:1-3 KJV
1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. [Gal 4:27]
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

The symbolism is undeniable: the tent, the curtains, the cords, the stakes, all of these things are related to the Mishkan-Tabernacle, which is used in the imagery for Yerushalem, (of above), which Paul says is our mother, (mother-covenant, according to the Gal 4 passage quoted above herein).

Honoring your father and your mother therefore includes your heavenly Father and your heavenly Mother, and your heavenly Father says this:

Exodus 23:14-17 KJV
14 Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.
15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: ( thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty: )
16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.
17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.

And of course all three feasts mentioned in the above passage would come to be observed at Yerushalem, the place where the Father chose to place His Name, and all three feasts were observed from the beginning at the Mishkan-Tabernacle and then at Yerushalem which represents the Tabernacle, our symbolic Mother(Covenant), at the Temple which was the logical progression of the stationary version of the wilderness Mishkan-Tabernacle of the Torah.

Note the words Paul uses in the following statement to uphold the supernal Torah:

1 Corinthians 5:6-8
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Nothing is countermanded or separated/ignored or done away with.
The problem lies in the fact that the natural mind cannot please Elohim, (Rom 8:1-8).
Such people do not even believe the writings of Paul so much as they claim they do.
 
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HIM

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I’m sorry.

Thank you I apologize also for when I come off arrogant.


I was talking about 1 specific post Jer 31:31-34 Not all of your posts as you can see my history I like and agree with many of them. You call me out when you disagree, I was saying, hey let’s look at what the scriptures say on this matter.

Okay, but for the record there was and is Scripture in this summary to which you responded to.

"No mam. James mentions laws which are mentioned thoughout the Book of the Law. The royal Law of Love. The law in pertaining respect to persons and the Ten. All of which He connects to the perfect Law, that of Liberty which is called such because it is engrafted into us because we are begotten by the Word of truth and are a new creation. So let's not forget what manner of man we are and be a doer of the word that is engrafted and not a forgetful hearer. For we will be judged by that which is engrafted, the perfect Law that of Liberty, freedom."
The book of the law contains many writings, curses, blessing and laws, but that does not make it all the Royal Law as no scripture says this. A verse imho would be important that says the book of the law is the Royal law like James says quoting directly from the greatest commandments to define what he is referring to.

James is quoting explicitly saying the Royal Law is the greatest commandments by directly quoting what he is referring to. We also have scripture showing the greatest commandments are the Ten summarized Rom 13:9 and always have to clarify not for you, but for others that the summary does not delete the details.

Never said the Royal Law was the Book of the Law. We said the Royal Law is in the Book of the Law. As is the Law pertaining to not given respect to persons in regard to status.


And then James explicitly only quotes and contrasts from the Ten Commandments calling them the law of Liberty and what we will be Judged by which reconciles in other scriptures like Ecc 12:13-14, Mat 5:19-30, Rev 22:14-15\
It doesn't say the Book of the law is the Royal Law or the law of Liberty anywhere in the scriptures..

No, the Law of liberty is contrasted to all the Laws mentioned, not just the Ten. Context and grammar dictates this. You are quoting verses outside of the text that do not even address the Law of Liberty

No where does it say the Law of Liberty is the Ten. The Law of Liberty is the word engrafted. Us being a new creature begotten by the Word of Truth have the word engrafted in us. Not just the Ten, but the Word as chapter one entails. Being this new creature, as we see ourselves we are not to forget what manner we now are as we goeth our way. We are to be a doer of the word that is engrafted , not a forgetful hearer only.

Here in chapter one is where the contrast is in respect the Law of Liberty. Here is when it is first mentioned. And the contrast is between the word that is engrafted and the Law not just the Ten., And how that when it is engrafted, made part of us it is the Perfect Law that is of Liberty. And when we look at this new reflection and we goeth our way let us not forget what manner man we are now begotten by the Word of Truth and be a doeth of the work.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law, that of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.



If everyone would have obeyed God's law, there would not have been a law of Moses so can't be the law of Liberty,


There are moral laws, teachings in the Book of the Law and throughout the Holy Writ that are not covered by the Ten. The Royal, The Law pertaining not giving respect to persons position. taking care of widows and orphaned children. and bridling ones tongue to just name the ones mentioned here in James. These are not of the Ten but of the Word of truth in which we have the Word engrafted in us. The Word, the Law perfected which has liberated us from who we were and made us a new creation in Christ Jesus being begotten by the Word of truth. We now have His Spirit that we walk in His ways, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law. For the Word, His commandments and statutes through His Spirit are in our hearts and in our minds that we do it. That is the word of faith in which we preach. The faith that establishes the Law.
 
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HIM

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Can you please provide a verse
Sure it is in this quote to which you had already responded to.

Have to go. Have a blessed day!
And is written in the Book of the Law,

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Sure it is in this quote to which you had already responded to.

Have to go. Have a blessed day!
Thats the greatest commandment, not the entire book of the law. So please share where is the verse that says the book of the law which contained curses and was outside the ark as a witness against Deut 31:24-26, is the Royal law.

This is what the greatest commandment means according to the Text

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, (which ones is Paul referring to?) “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

James said this: James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; Not the entire book is the Royal law, he didn't even mention book, so best imho not to add what's not there.

Him said No, the Law of liberty is contrasted to all the Laws mentioned
Can you please point out the other laws James is quoting and contrasting aside from the Ten Commandments. I am pretty sure the "He who said" James is referring to is God as it is a direct quote from Exodus 20

James 2:11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

The rest of James you keep quoting supports the definitions given in James 2:8-12 what the Royal is (great commandments- Ten summarized) and Law of Liberty- the Ten James 2:10-12

We may not agree on this and thats okay. We at least have some common ground, that we should love God with all our heart and keep His commandments and other laws as shown in the scriptures.

Have a blessed day!
 
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