Thoughts on God's sovereignty, omniscience and the laws of physics.

[KevinT]

Does mankind have free will? Does this impact God's sovereignty? Does the physical laws we find in the universe give any insight into this? I'd like to explore this here.

A child is struck and killed by a car. Was this in accordance with God's will?

The car struck her because the driver was drunk
The driver was drunk because he had become a slave to alcohol
He was a slave because his parents were not able to teach him avoid the trap of an addicting substance
His parents didn't do a great job because of actions of their parents
A chain of cause and effect can go all the way back to Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve failed when the were tempted by the devil through the serpent, and Satan and cronies have been adding misery all along the way.
Lucifer turned into the evil devil because God made the universe such that rebellion was possible
So all this is a result of the way God made the universe.

So was the child's death in accordance with God's will?

Texts supporting free will.​

Notice that the texts below are appeals to mankind to do the right thing, to repent, to choose what is right. Source

• John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
  
  
• 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
  
  
• 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
  
  
• Gal 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
  
  
• Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
  
  
• Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
  
  
• Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
  
  
• Rom 13:2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
  
  
• Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
  
  
• Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
  
  
• Deut 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live...
  
  
• Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Texts against free will​

Notice that these texts show that regardless of what a man might want to do, God is all powerful and is able to override everything. Source

• Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is no other; ... I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
  
  
• Dan 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”
  
  
• Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. NOTE: see here for alternative translations.
  
  
• Psalms 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations
  
  
• Eph 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
  
  
• Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
  
  
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44
  
  
• Rom 8:7-8 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Does God control the Universe?​

One of my friends who follows a Reformed faith which often emphasizes the sovereignty of God, asked me once, "Do you think there is any part of the universe, any atom or any minute element, that is not under the control of God?" I have thought about this questions often. The implication is that if all the parts of the universe ARE under God's control, then they must be doing exactly what He wants them to be doing.

• What does it mean to be under the control of God? Is God actively thinking about every atom and choosing a unique and individualized path for it? Or is God massively parallel (to use a computer concept), and doing all the things all at once? Did He decide how things would work (i.e. establish physical laws), and then consistently stick to those principles? If those physical laws are used to kill someone with an exploding bomb, does that mean that God "did it?"
  
  
• If God wanted to, could He set up a universe that contains randomness? Classical physics from Isaac Newton envisioned a world comprised of atoms all zooming around with individual speeds, masses and directions. And if one could just know all the little parts, then once could predict how everything would play out, like a gigantic clockwork. Nothing can vary, and the entire future is already determined by the current state of the all the atoms. But with careful study of God's universe, we have actually found that there appears to be built in randomness at the level of the quantum. (More about this here.) If God did not want everything to be boringly predictive and instead created aspects of the laws of physics that are random and NOT predictable, would that mean that God is not in control? I would argue NO. As a computer programmer, I can create a tiny artificial world inside a computer. Think about a computer game that appears 3D with characters running around inside it. I can make that world operate by any rules I want, and if I choose to make some elements random and surprising even to me, I would argue that the computerized world is still under my control.
  
  
• Can there be a conflict exist in God's universe between His ultimate will (that all be in harmony), and His practical individualized will (e.g. striking the priest Uzzah dead for touching the ark to teach His people proper respect)? In my example of the exploding bomb above, God might have a will to establish consistency in the universe. So the laws of physics are always the same, all the time. He may also have a will to not have children killed by cruel bombs. So there is a conflict. He could quickly alter the laws of physics such that they work differently such that no child will be killed by a bomb. But how would that play out? Think about Cain and Abel from the book of Genesis. God could see that Cain was angry with his brother Abel and considering murder. God came down and personally tried to reason with Cain and head off the situation. But when Cain didn't cooperate, and instead used the laws of physics to kill Abel, God did NOT send an angel to grab Cain's hands, or suddenly change the neurons in Cain's brain so they thought differently, or alter the physical laws such that his murder failed. Why not when God clearly didn't want Abel killed? Because to do so would violate the His principle of autonomy for His children, taking away their free will and turning them into robots. Instead, God solved the problem a different way, though Christ.
  
  
• When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, was this in accordance with the will of God? Did God predestine this action? Was there a chance that she could have NOT eaten it? My belief is that God chose to create a universe wherein it was possible (though not desired) for one of His creations to turn against Him, and thus Lucifer became the devil or Satan. Was this in accordance to God's will? Yes and no. 'Yes' in that God maintained the rules of the universe that allowed for this horror -- just as the rules would later be used in the murder of Abel. But 'No' in that God did not want such things to come about. But once there is an enemy, it is possible for others such as Eve to be persuaded to join in distrustful rebellion. And that is exactly what happened. It was probably inevitable that this would happen on one of the home worlds of the Sons of God (Job 1:6). But was God happy about all the death that would be caused as a result? No. To repeat the text above Ezekiel 18 “...I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

Conclusions​

• God is Sovereign in that He has all the power. So my Reformed friends are correct in this.
• God has used His power to establish rules and principles in the universe. Like gravity that never changes.
• Sometimes His principles can conflict with each other.
• Just because God enables something to happen doesn't necessarily mean that He is happy about it.
• So God being "in control" doesn't mean God wants everything to be the way it is.
• I have never known anyone to be able to explain HOW free will works. But I think it is God's most precious creation, and He went to amazing lengths, even submitting to death on a cross, to show us how to submit our will to God and how it is the only way to be truly free from horrors of a wrong path.

I suspect this will be controversial. What do you all think?

Kevin

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Does mankind have free will? Does this impact God's sovereignty? Does the physical laws we find in the universe give any insight into this? I'd like to explore this here.

A child is struck and killed by a car. Was this in accordance with God's will?

The car struck her because the driver was drunk
The driver was drunk because he had become a slave to alcohol
He was a slave because his parents were not able to teach him avoid the trap of an addicting substance
His parents didn't do a great job because of actions of their parents
A chain of cause and effect can go all the way back to Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve failed when the were tempted by the devil through the serpent, and Satan and cronies have been adding misery all along the way.
Lucifer turned into the evil devil because God made the universe such that rebellion was possible
So all this is a result of the way God made the universe.

So was the child's death in accordance with God's will?

Texts supporting free will.​

Notice that the texts below are appeals to mankind to do the right thing, to repent, to choose what is right. Source

• John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
  
  
• 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
  
  
• 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
  
  
• Gal 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
  
  
• Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
  
  
• Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
  
  
• Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
  
  
• Rom 13:2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
  
  
• Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
  
  
• Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
  
  
• Deut 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live...
  
  
• Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Texts against free will​

Notice that these texts show that regardless of what a man might want to do, God is all powerful and is able to override everything. Source

• Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is no other; ... I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
  
  
• Dan 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”
  
  
• Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. NOTE: see here for alternative translations.
  
  
• Psalms 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations
  
  
• Eph 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
  
  
• Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
  
  
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44
  
  
• Rom 8:7-8 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Does God control the Universe?​

One of my friends who follows a Reformed faith which often emphasizes the sovereignty of God, asked me once, "Do you think there is any part of the universe, any atom or any minute element, that is not under the control of God?" I have thought about this questions often. The implication is that if all the parts of the universe ARE under God's control, then they must be doing exactly what He wants them to be doing.

• What does it mean to be under the control of God? Is God actively thinking about every atom and choosing a unique and individualized path for it? Or is God massively parallel (to use a computer concept), and doing all the things all at once? Did He decide how things would work (i.e. establish physical laws), and then consistently stick to those principles? If those physical laws are used to kill someone with an exploding bomb, does that mean that God "did it?"
  
  
• If God wanted to, could He set up a universe that contains randomness? Classical physics from Isaac Newton envisioned a world comprised of atoms all zooming around with individual speeds, masses and directions. And if one could just know all the little parts, then once could predict how everything would play out, like a gigantic clockwork. Nothing can vary, and the entire future is already determined by the current state of the all the atoms. But with careful study of God's universe, we have actually found that there appears to be built in randomness at the level of the quantum. (More about this here.) If God did not want everything to be boringly predictive and instead created aspects of the laws of physics that are random and NOT predictable, would that mean that God is not in control? I would argue NO. As a computer programmer, I can create a tiny artificial world inside a computer. Think about a computer game that appears 3D with characters running around inside it. I can make that world operate by any rules I want, and if I choose to make some elements random and surprising even to me, I would argue that the computerized world is still under my control.
  
  
• Can there be a conflict exist in God's universe between His ultimate will (that all be in harmony), and His practical individualized will (e.g. striking the priest Uzzah dead for touching the ark to teach His people proper respect)? In my example of the exploding bomb above, God might have a will to establish consistency in the universe. So the laws of physics are always the same, all the time. He may also have a will to not have children killed by cruel bombs. So there is a conflict. He could quickly alter the laws of physics such that they work differently such that no child will be killed by a bomb. But how would that play out? Think about Cain and Abel from the book of Genesis. God could see that Cain was angry with his brother Abel and considering murder. God came down and personally tried to reason with Cain and head off the situation. But when Cain didn't cooperate, and instead used the laws of physics to kill Abel, God did NOT send an angel to grab Cain's hands, or suddenly change the neurons in Cain's brain so they thought differently, or alter the physical laws such that his murder failed. Why not when God clearly didn't want Abel killed? Because to do so would violate the His principle of autonomy for His children, taking away their free will and turning them into robots. Instead, God solved the problem a different way, though Christ.
  
  
• When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, was this in accordance with the will of God? Did God predestine this action? Was there a chance that she could have NOT eaten it? My belief is that God chose to create a universe wherein it was possible (though not desired) for one of His creations to turn against Him, and thus Lucifer became the devil or Satan. Was this in accordance to God's will? Yes and no. 'Yes' in that God maintained the rules of the universe that allowed for this horror -- just as the rules would later be used in the murder of Abel. But 'No' in that God did not want such things to come about. But once there is an enemy, it is possible for others such as Eve to be persuaded to join in distrustful rebellion. And that is exactly what happened. It was probably inevitable that this would happen on one of the home worlds of the Sons of God (Job 1:6). But was God happy about all the death that would be caused as a result? No. To repeat the text above Ezekiel 18 “...I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

Conclusions​

• God is Sovereign in that He has all the power. So my Reformed friends are correct in this.
• God has used His power to establish rules and principles in the universe. Like gravity that never changes.
• Sometimes His principles can conflict with each other.
• Just because God enables something to happen doesn't necessarily mean that He is happy about it.
• So God being "in control" doesn't mean God wants everything to be the way it is.
• I have never known anyone to be able to explain HOW free will works. But I think it is God's most precious creation, and He went to amazing lengths, even submitting to death on a cross, to show us how to submit our will to God and how it is the only way to be truly free from horrors of a wrong path.

I suspect this will be controversial. What do you all think?

Kevin

My thoughts...God is sovereign and humanity has free will. They go hand in hand . Why ? Because in His sovereignty He gave us free will.
Blessings.

 

[Clare73]

Does mankind have free will? Does this impact God's sovereignty? Does the physical laws we find in the universe give any insight into this? I'd like to explore this here.
A child is struck and killed by a car. Was this in accordance with God's will?
The car struck her because the driver was drunk
The driver was drunk because he had become a slave to alcohol
He was a slave because his parents were not able to teach him avoid the trap of an addicting substance
His parents didn't do a great job because of actions of their parents
A chain of cause and effect can go all the way back to Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve failed when the were tempted by the devil through the serpent, and Satan and cronies have been adding misery all along the way.
Lucifer turned into the evil devil because God made the universe such that rebellion was possible
So all this is a result of the way God made the universe.
So was the child's death in accordance with God's will?

Texts supporting free will.​

Notice that the texts below are appeals to mankind to do the right thing, to repent, to choose what is right. Source

• John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
  
  
• 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
  
  
• 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
  
  
• Gal 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
  
  
• Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
  
  
• Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
  
  
• Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
  
  
• Rom 13:2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
  
  
• Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
  
  
• Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
  
  
• Deut 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live...
  
  
• Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Texts against free will​

Notice that these texts show that regardless of what a man might want to do, God is all powerful and is able to override everything. Source

• Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is no other; ... I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
  
  
• Dan 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”
  
  
• Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. NOTE: see here for alternative translations.
  
  
• Psalms 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations
  
  
• Eph 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
  
  
• Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
  
  
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44
  
  
• Rom 8:7-8 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Does God control the Universe?​

One of my friends who follows a Reformed faith which often emphasizes the sovereignty of God, asked me once, "Do you think there is any part of the universe, any atom or any minute element, that is not under the control of God?" I have thought about this questions often. The implication is that if all the parts of the universe ARE under God's control, then they must be doing exactly what He wants them to be doing.

• What does it mean to be under the control of God? Is God actively thinking about every atom and choosing a unique and individualized path for it? Or is God massively parallel (to use a computer concept), and doing all the things all at once? Did He decide how things would work (i.e. establish physical laws), and then consistently stick to those principles? If those physical laws are used to kill someone with an exploding bomb, does that mean that God "did it?"
  
  
• If God wanted to, could He set up a universe that contains randomness? Classical physics from Isaac Newton envisioned a world comprised of atoms all zooming around with individual speeds, masses and directions. And if one could just know all the little parts, then once could predict how everything would play out, like a gigantic clockwork. Nothing can vary, and the entire future is already determined by the current state of the all the atoms. But with careful study of God's universe, we have actually found that there appears to be built in randomness at the level of the quantum. (More about this here.) If God did not want everything to be boringly predictive and instead created aspects of the laws of physics that are random and NOT predictable, would that mean that God is not in control? I would argue NO. As a computer programmer, I can create a tiny artificial world inside a computer. Think about a computer game that appears 3D with characters running around inside it. I can make that world operate by any rules I want, and if I choose to make some elements random and surprising even to me, I would argue that the computerized world is still under my control.
  
  
• Can there be a conflict exist in God's universe between His ultimate will (that all be in harmony), and His practical individualized will (e.g. striking the priest Uzzah dead for touching the ark to teach His people proper respect)? In my example of the exploding bomb above, God might have a will to establish consistency in the universe. So the laws of physics are always the same, all the time. He may also have a will to not have children killed by cruel bombs. So there is a conflict. He could quickly alter the laws of physics such that they work differently such that no child will be killed by a bomb. But how would that play out? Think about Cain and Abel from the book of Genesis. God could see that Cain was angry with his brother Abel and considering murder. God came down and personally tried to reason with Cain and head off the situation. But when Cain didn't cooperate, and instead used the laws of physics to kill Abel, God did NOT send an angel to grab Cain's hands, or suddenly change the neurons in Cain's brain so they thought differently, or alter the physical laws such that his murder failed. Why not when God clearly didn't want Abel killed? Because to do so would violate the His principle of autonomy for His children, taking away their free will and turning them into robots. Instead, God solved the problem a different way, though Christ.
  
  
• When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, was this in accordance with the will of God? Did God predestine this action? Was there a chance that she could have NOT eaten it? My belief is that God chose to create a universe wherein it was possible (though not desired) for one of His creations to turn against Him, and thus Lucifer became the devil or Satan. Was this in accordance to God's will? Yes and no. 'Yes' in that God maintained the rules of the universe that allowed for this horror -- just as the rules would later be used in the murder of Abel. But 'No' in that God did not want such things to come about. But once there is an enemy, it is possible for others such as Eve to be persuaded to join in distrustful rebellion. And that is exactly what happened. It was probably inevitable that this would happen on one of the home worlds of the Sons of God (Job 1:6). But was God happy about all the death that would be caused as a result? No. To repeat the text above Ezekiel 18 “...I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

Conclusions​

• God is Sovereign in that He has all the power. So my Reformed friends are correct in this.
• God has used His power to establish rules and principles in the universe. Like gravity that never changes.
• Sometimes His principles can conflict with each other.
• Just because God enables something to happen doesn't necessarily mean that He is happy about it.
• So God being "in control" doesn't mean God wants everything to be the way it is.

• I have never known anyone to be able to explain HOW free will works. But I think it is God's most precious creation, and He went to amazing lengths, even submitting to death on a cross, to show us how to submit our will to God and how it is the only way to be truly free from horrors of a wrong path.

Well, you must first start with free will as seen in Scripture.

Free will is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

So free will does not operate in a vacuum, it is governed by one's disposition, what one prefers.
And the problem with fallen man is that he prefers self over God.

Therefore, God works in the disposition of men to give them to prefer his will, which they then freely and willingly choose.

So the sovereignty of God does not violate the free will of man when man chooses what he prefers.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

There does not have to be a relationship between "the free will of man" and God allegedly "being in control of all things."
Leave man out of the equation for a moment.
A rock is embedded in the side of a grassy hill. It came to be there by any number of random events and causes. Eventually due to the seasons and course of nature the rock becomes dislodged and rolls down the hill. Maybe it hits a person on their head, maybe it just comes to rest in the field below.
What did God have to do with these events? Other than creating rocks, hills, seasons, and the course of nature... is it wrong to say God really had nothing to do with this event? Could God have stopped this event? Of course. He is sovereign and can do what He chooses. On the other hand, does He have to do anything at all? The hyper-control theorist says God personally controls the rotation of every electron around every atom in the universe. They say He orchestrates everything. Essentially, the universe is nothing more than the moment-by-moment actualization of the thoughts and mind of God into the spiritual and physical universe. Their theory teaches God is the universe; it is all merely an extension of His will manifested into reality by His omnipotent power.
In this paradigm, there are no accidents, no fate, and no chance. In the above mini-drama, if the rock hits a man on the head, we would call it an accident. The hyper-control theorist would insist there are no accidents. If his theories were true, then he would be right. God directly and intentionally orchestrated the rock to fall on the man's head. But here is the problem. The scripture speaks of accidents, fate, and chance again and again. God even states there are events that He had nothing to do with. "Time and chance happen to all."

Ecclesiastes 9:11 KJV
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

I believe that creation itself has the freedom to occur according to the "course of nature," which is the random interaction of all created things with each other. God imparted a portion of His sovereignty and power into each created thing. Every created thing has the right to exist and interact with every other created thing. The involvement of God with His creation is not orchestration; it is intervention. He allows any all things to happen by default. He can intervene at any time, but by observation, we must say that is not the norm.

Salvation is an intervention against the default value of being lost.
Healing is an intervention against the default value of being sick.
Deliverance is an intervention against the default value of being oppressed.
etc...

 

[Petros2015]

I suspect this will be controversial. What do you all think?

C.S. Lewis did a good book touching on these topics, "The Problem of Pain", check it out sometime.
Some of your thoughts sound similar to an excerpt I read this morning and I expect might agree with you.

 

[KevinT]

There does not have to be a relationship between "the free will of man" and God allegedly "being in control of all things."
Leave man out of the equation for a moment.
A rock is embedded in the side of a grassy hill. It came to be there by any number of random events and causes. Eventually due to the seasons and course of nature the rock becomes dislodged and rolls down the hill. Maybe it hits a person on their head, maybe it just comes to rest in the field below.
What did God have to do with these events? Other than creating rocks, hills, seasons, and the course of nature... is it wrong to say God really had nothing to do with this event? Could God have stopped this event? Of course. He is sovereign and can do what He chooses. On the other hand, does He have to do anything at all? The hyper-control theorist says God personally controls the rotation of every electron around every atom in the universe. They say He orchestrates everything.

I really like how you have phrased this. Well done!

What drives me crazy is when the "hyper-control" believers imply that every horrible thing that happens is just the way God wanted it to be. One commenter on this forum replied once that God ordained that Eve and Adam would fall, and that there was no chance of them NOT falling, and that this was all the will of God, with the intention of God being to reveal His grace through Jesus. Many people seem to believe this way, so I have to be respectful, but it makes me want to bang my head on the wall.

Essentially, the universe is nothing more than the moment-by-moment actualization of the thoughts and mind of God into the spiritual and physical universe. God is the universe; it is all merely an extension of His will manifested into reality by His omnipotent power.

A small quibbling on this point. To say that "God is the universe" seems to imply that God is nothing more than the universe. I don't know if that is really what you meant, but I would argue that God is greater than the universe, and that the universe is just one aspect of Him.

In this paradigm, there are no accidents, no fate, and no chance. In the above mini-drama, if the rock hits a man on the head, we would call it an accident. The hyper-control theorist would insist there are no accidents. If his theories were true, then he would be right. God directly and intentionally orchestrated the rock to fall on the man's head. But here is the problem. The scripture speaks of accidents, fate, and chance again and again. God even states there are events that He had nothing to do with. "Time and chance happen to all."

Ecclesiastes 9:11 KJV
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Wow, I have never caught this verse below. A Biblical support for randomness. Excellent!

I believe that creation itself has the freedom to occur according to the "course of nature," which is the random interaction of all created things with each other. God imparted a portion of His sovereignty and power into each created thing. Every created thing has the right to exist and interact with every other created thing. The involvement of God with His creation is not orchestration; it is intervention. He allows any all things to happen by default. He can intervene at any time, but by observation, we must say that is not the norm.

Salvation is an intervention against the default value of being lost.
Healing is an intervention against the default value of being sick.
Deliverance is an intervention against the default value of being oppressed.
etc...

So at a lower level, God is "running" the universe, by empowering all the parts of the universe operate in their default manner. But at a higher level, He intervenes by seeking and saving the lost.

Thanks for this excellent reply

KT

 

[KevinT]

C.S. Lewis did a good book touching on these topics, "The Problem of Pain", check it out sometime.
Some of your thoughts sound similar to an excerpt I read this morning and I expect might agree with you.

Thanks for this recommendation. I'm going to check it out. I found it for download here.

KT

 

[tonychanyt]

C.S. Lewis did a good book touching on these topics, "The Problem of Pain"

Check out This life is a testing place for everyone

 

[SavedByGrace3]

What drives me crazy is when the "hyper-control" believers imply that every horrible thing that happens is just the way God wanted it to be. One commenter on this forum replied once that God ordained that Eve and Adam would fall, and that there was no chance of them NOT falling, and that this was all the will of God, with the intention of God being to reveal His grace through Jesus. Many people seem to believe this way, so I have to be respectful, but it makes me want to bang my head on the wall.

This is an old one. I do not think God ordained the fall, but He made it a possibility. This is a creation of the possible. For God to achieve His main purpose for creation, things must be "allowed" to happen. Not on a one-by-one basis as some teach from Job, but as a default creation rule. The functions of chance and even risk has to be in effect. Job is a good subject for this. The common teaching is that God had to give Satan permission to do what he did to Job. Say they that God "allowed" it to happen as a one-time special act of permission, as if it could not have happened except that God allowed it. But God did not have to give Satan permission to do anything. Satan had and has defaulted, standing permission to do anything he wants within the bounds of his innate power and ability. A lion does not need permission to get a gazelle. He has standing permission to get the gazelle from the day he was created. God did not give Satan immediate special permission, and Satan did not even ask for such permission. As stated, he did not have to ask for something he already had. It was not permission that prevented Satan from doing the evil he wanted to do. It was a hedge. The hedge came down, which opened Job to the attack of Satan. That is what God was saying to Satan when He said, "Look, all he has is in your hands." He was not giving Satan permission... he already had that. He was simply informing Satan that there was no longer a hedge.
Back to Adam and Eve. There had to be the possibility of a fall. It's not an orchestration but an opening. Yes, God knew they would fall, but knowing what will happen is not the same as making it happen. (There is the old debate asking how could God change the future if that future never happens? If it never happens (because He changed the future), then how could He know it had to be changed?) Essentially, for God to have a family that loved Him, there had to be the possibility of a fallen nature that could choose God, not by design but through suffering and struggle. God did not want autonomous robots who praised, worshiped, and obeyed on command. He wanted genuine, loving children who would serve Him from the heart. These beings had to have free will, and the risk of sin had to be allowed, or rather, open.

A small quibbling on this point. To say that "God is the universe" seems to imply that God is nothing more than the universe. I don't know if that is really what you meant, but I would argue that God is greater than the universe, and that the universe is just one aspect of Him.

Yes. I have edited that section:"The hyper-control theorist says God personally controls the rotation of every electron around every atom in the universe. They say He orchestrates everything. Essentially, the universe is nothing more than the moment-by-moment actualization of the thoughts and mind of God into the spiritual and physical universe. Their theory teaches God is the universe; it is all merely an extension of His will manifested into reality by His omnipotent power."

So at a lower level, God is "running" the universe, by empowering all the parts of the universe operate in their default manner. But at a higher level, He intervenes by seeking and saving the lost.

Yes. Good summation. A orchestrated universe who fail to serve His purpose. In my book I express it like this:

If "God is in control of everything," as some suggest, then we must resolve that God scripted out this drama that we call "history" before He laid the first stone of creation. For all time, He has been performing the function of an eternal puppet master. He has written all the scenes, is acting all the parts, controlling all the props, and directing all the acts. Oh yes, do not forget. He is also the janitor who has to clean up the messes, which, by the way, He must have also made. In the final act, He plunges the antagonists (boo, hiss) to their eternal demise, drags the chosen into heaven, writes Himself in as the hero (bravo!), and ultimately applauds His performance and production. (Angels praise and worship on cue! )

 

[Rescued One]

Why do Arminians pray? Are you expecting a yes or no to your request?

 

[eleos1954]

Does mankind have free will? Does this impact God's sovereignty? Does the physical laws we find in the universe give any insight into this? I'd like to explore this here.

A child is struck and killed by a car. Was this in accordance with God's will?

The car struck her because the driver was drunk
The driver was drunk because he had become a slave to alcohol
He was a slave because his parents were not able to teach him avoid the trap of an addicting substance
His parents didn't do a great job because of actions of their parents
A chain of cause and effect can go all the way back to Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve failed when the were tempted by the devil through the serpent, and Satan and cronies have been adding misery all along the way.
Lucifer turned into the evil devil because God made the universe such that rebellion was possible
So all this is a result of the way God made the universe.

So was the child's death in accordance with God's will?

Texts supporting free will.​

Notice that the texts below are appeals to mankind to do the right thing, to repent, to choose what is right. Source

• John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
  
  
• 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
  
  
• 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
  
  
• Gal 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
  
  
• Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
  
  
• Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
  
  
• Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
  
  
• Rom 13:2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
  
  
• Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
  
  
• Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
  
  
• Deut 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live...
  
  
• Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Texts against free will​

Notice that these texts show that regardless of what a man might want to do, God is all powerful and is able to override everything. Source

• Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is no other; ... I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
  
  
• Dan 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”
  
  
• Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. NOTE: see here for alternative translations.
  
  
• Psalms 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations
  
  
• Eph 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
  
  
• Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
  
  
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44
  
  
• Rom 8:7-8 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Does God control the Universe?​

One of my friends who follows a Reformed faith which often emphasizes the sovereignty of God, asked me once, "Do you think there is any part of the universe, any atom or any minute element, that is not under the control of God?" I have thought about this questions often. The implication is that if all the parts of the universe ARE under God's control, then they must be doing exactly what He wants them to be doing.

• What does it mean to be under the control of God? Is God actively thinking about every atom and choosing a unique and individualized path for it? Or is God massively parallel (to use a computer concept), and doing all the things all at once? Did He decide how things would work (i.e. establish physical laws), and then consistently stick to those principles? If those physical laws are used to kill someone with an exploding bomb, does that mean that God "did it?"
  
  
• If God wanted to, could He set up a universe that contains randomness? Classical physics from Isaac Newton envisioned a world comprised of atoms all zooming around with individual speeds, masses and directions. And if one could just know all the little parts, then once could predict how everything would play out, like a gigantic clockwork. Nothing can vary, and the entire future is already determined by the current state of the all the atoms. But with careful study of God's universe, we have actually found that there appears to be built in randomness at the level of the quantum. (More about this here.) If God did not want everything to be boringly predictive and instead created aspects of the laws of physics that are random and NOT predictable, would that mean that God is not in control? I would argue NO. As a computer programmer, I can create a tiny artificial world inside a computer. Think about a computer game that appears 3D with characters running around inside it. I can make that world operate by any rules I want, and if I choose to make some elements random and surprising even to me, I would argue that the computerized world is still under my control.
  
  
• Can there be a conflict exist in God's universe between His ultimate will (that all be in harmony), and His practical individualized will (e.g. striking the priest Uzzah dead for touching the ark to teach His people proper respect)? In my example of the exploding bomb above, God might have a will to establish consistency in the universe. So the laws of physics are always the same, all the time. He may also have a will to not have children killed by cruel bombs. So there is a conflict. He could quickly alter the laws of physics such that they work differently such that no child will be killed by a bomb. But how would that play out? Think about Cain and Abel from the book of Genesis. God could see that Cain was angry with his brother Abel and considering murder. God came down and personally tried to reason with Cain and head off the situation. But when Cain didn't cooperate, and instead used the laws of physics to kill Abel, God did NOT send an angel to grab Cain's hands, or suddenly change the neurons in Cain's brain so they thought differently, or alter the physical laws such that his murder failed. Why not when God clearly didn't want Abel killed? Because to do so would violate the His principle of autonomy for His children, taking away their free will and turning them into robots. Instead, God solved the problem a different way, though Christ.
  
  
• When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, was this in accordance with the will of God? Did God predestine this action? Was there a chance that she could have NOT eaten it? My belief is that God chose to create a universe wherein it was possible (though not desired) for one of His creations to turn against Him, and thus Lucifer became the devil or Satan. Was this in accordance to God's will? Yes and no. 'Yes' in that God maintained the rules of the universe that allowed for this horror -- just as the rules would later be used in the murder of Abel. But 'No' in that God did not want such things to come about. But once there is an enemy, it is possible for others such as Eve to be persuaded to join in distrustful rebellion. And that is exactly what happened. It was probably inevitable that this would happen on one of the home worlds of the Sons of God (Job 1:6). But was God happy about all the death that would be caused as a result? No. To repeat the text above Ezekiel 18 “...I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

Conclusions​

• God is Sovereign in that He has all the power. So my Reformed friends are correct in this.
• God has used His power to establish rules and principles in the universe. Like gravity that never changes.
• Sometimes His principles can conflict with each other.
• Just because God enables something to happen doesn't necessarily mean that He is happy about it.
• So God being "in control" doesn't mean God wants everything to be the way it is.
• I have never known anyone to be able to explain HOW free will works. But I think it is God's most precious creation, and He went to amazing lengths, even submitting to death on a cross, to show us how to submit our will to God and how it is the only way to be truly free from horrors of a wrong path.

I suspect this will be controversial. What do you all think?

Kevin

God's will is for us not to sin (sin is transgression of the law) ... God has laws. When His laws are kept perfectly (only Christ did) they produce love. They are in essence love laws. That is why it is said ...

"If you love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15

The reason is to be love.

God controls everything ... nothing happens unless God allows what happens to happen. Sin is not His will but He does allow it to happen.

He created His beings with free will out of love .... you can't have true love without choice ... love can not be forced else it's not love.

We have a lot of freedom in the Lord ... our choices however are not to include sin. We make many many choices throughout our lives but those choices are not to include sin.

God's will is true LOVE and that love is a principle ... not an emotion ... putting others before self. This was what Christ did on the cross ... God (our creator) himself putting the entirety of mankind before Himself ... He gave His life.

When evil atrocities occur it's not God's will (and we most certainly must not state that they are) .... there is a day of reckoning coming and the Lord will right ALL the wrongs that have ever occurred throughout history. Looking forward to that day !!!!

People need to understand we are living in a war zone ... a spiritual war zone ... and wars are evil and destructive ... but we must also understand the Lord will end this war some day.

John 16:33

Berean Literal Bible
I have spoken these things to you so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world."

Even though we live in a war zone ... we are to be at peace.

Looking forward to when the Lord ends the war .... for eternity ... AMEN!!!

 

[tonychanyt]

God did not have to give Satan permission to do anything.

See The developmental character of satan and follow up there

 

[Richard T]

Though there are disagreements and competing views on the different types of the will of God and what they encompass, the reform theologian Charles Sproul describes the will of God aptly in applying three categories to it1 The first category is referred to as the the “sovereign efficacious will” of God.2 This means God decrees a thing and it happens. Every unfulfilled prophecy that has some literal meaning for the end time transition will certainly be fulfilled and is part of God's sovereign will. God also has a “perceptive will” that consists of His desires on things that man should follow such as the ten commandments.3 God does not force man to follow, he can ignore God at his own peril. Thirdly, God is said to have a permissive will.4 Here God lets things occur by not intervening.

So in many things, the responsibility is man's. Love, intercession and spiritual warfare, etc. can make a difference. They help defeat some of the devil's plans. The devil can never cross God's sovereign will though. He does not have that power.


1 Charles Sproul, “Discerning God’s Will: The Three Wills of God.” Monegerism, https://www.monergism.com/discerning-god’s-will-three-wills-god

 

[Clare73]

Though there are disagreements and competing views on the different types of the will of God and what they encompass, the reform theologian Charles Sproul describes the will of God aptly in applying three categories to it1 The first category is referred to as the the “sovereign efficacious will” of God.2 This means God decrees a thing and it happens. Every unfulfilled prophecy that has some literal meaning for the end time transition will certainly be fulfilled and is part of God's sovereign will.

God also has a “perceptive will” that consists of His desires on things that man should follow such as the ten commandments.3 God does not force man to follow, he can ignore God at his own peril. Thirdly, God is said to have a permissive will.4 Here God lets things occur by not intervening.
So in many things, the responsibility is man's. Love, intercession and spiritual warfare, etc. can make a difference. They help defeat some of the devil's plans. The devil can never cross God's sovereign will though. He does not have that power.

The Bible knows nothing of a "permissive" will of God (Ex 4:21, 9:16, 1 Sa 18:10, 2 Sa 24:1, 10, 1 Kgs 22:23, Job 12:16, Eze 14:9, Da 4:25).
The Bible knows only the revealed will of God, which man is commanded to obey and which he disobeys,
and the secret will of God which God has decided it is best for us not to know (Dt 29:29), and which is always done (Isa 46:10-11).
The Bible knows nothing of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen (Ex 4:11b, Dt 32:39, 1 Sa 2:7, 1 Kgs 11:14, 23, 12:15, 24, Job 1:12, Isa 45:7, 53:10, 54:16, Jer 44:27-28, Lam 3:37-38, Amos 3:6, Zec 11:16, Mt 10:29, Jn 9:2-3, Rev 17:17).
It is the ridiculous notion of man to attribute such weakness to God.

The God of the Bible is sovereign. Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Isa 53:10, Da 11:36, Ac 2:23, 3:18, 4:28, 13:48), determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Mt 25:34, Eph 1:4, Rev 13:8, 17:8).
The Bible knows nothing of a God whose will is thwarted by man (2 Chr 20:6, Job 9:12, 42:2, Isa 14:27, Da 4:35),
or of a God whose plans are conditioned on or determined by the actions of man (Ex 9:16, Ac 4:28),
or who sustains loss because of the actions of man (Jn 6:37, Ac 13:48).
The Bible knows only a God who ordains or decrees (not permits) everything (Lam 3:37), down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4, Mt 10:30).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do,
which is a misunderstanding of divine foreknowledge, which in its Scriptural usage refers to God foreknowing what he is going to do ("Known to the Lord for ages is his work," Ac 15:18), not what man is going to do, and foreknowing what he is going to do because he is the one who decreed that he shall do it.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Ge 20:6, Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27, Dt 2:25, 30, Jos 11:20, 2 Sa 24:1,
1 Kgs 22:23, 1 Chr 5:26, Ezr 1:1, 5, Pr 21:1, Eze 14:9, Da 1:9, Jn 6:37, Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48, 2 Co 8:16, Rev 17:17),
not unwillingly granting what he does not wish to happen.
For man's objection to this, see Ro 9:19-21.

What we call God's "permissive" will is what the Bible calls God's secret will (Dt 29:29).
The difference is that God's secret will, rather than unwillingly granting what he does not wish to happen, is the sole determiner of all that happens (Isa 8:10, 14:24, 46:10); man determines nothing (Da 4:35, Ps 33:9-10, Pr 16:9, 19:21, 20:24).
Note the difference between God's revealed will (Ex 7:2) and his secret will (Ex 7:3) for Pharaoh.
Because God is sovereign, he can ordain in his secret will (Ex 9:12, Jdg 9:23,1 Sa 18:10, 1 Kgs 22:23, Eze 14:9, Mt 18:7, Mk 14:21,
Jn 13:27, Ac 2:23, 4:28 ) that which is contrary to his revealed will (Ex 9:13, Eze 18:32, Mk 1:15, Ac 17:30, 1Ti 2:4, 4:10, 2 Pe 3:9).
And because God is sovereign, he can in his secret will both ordain the fall of man (which is the cause of all sin) and yet not be the author of sin (Jas 1:13).

 

[Richard T]

Thanks for your response. God is sovereign no matter what. Here we agree but within that He chooses whether to cause action or not. So all the various subsets of His will are basically how prominently He is going to act. Some things are definite. While other times He lets man get in the way. For instance with Israel asking for a King. God expressed his displeasure but let he still let Israel have a king. He did not secretly want them to have a King at that time.
God wishes all to be saved but many reject Him. So however you want to break down the likelihood of God's insistence on a particular matter seems ok.
To marry for instance. On a few occasions God really pushed this. Esther, Hosea are such examples. Most often though he leaves it up to the believer on what they prefer though He also said man should not be alone. Rom 12:2 suggests too God's will can be broken into the "good, acceptable and perfect will of God." Here the will of God is followed progressively better depending on the maturity of the believer. This is not unsimilar to the 30, 60 and 100 fold return. So lots of ways to break down God's will and I will examine the secret will further.

 

[KevinT]

Yes. Good summation. A orchestrated universe who fail to serve His purpose. In my book I express it like this:

If "God is in control of everything," as some suggest, then we must resolve that God scripted out this drama that we call "history" before He laid the first stone of creation. For all time, He has been performing the function of an eternal puppet master. He has written all the scenes, is acting all the parts, controlling all the props, and directing all the acts. Oh yes, do not forget. He is also the janitor who has to clean up the messes, which, by the way, He must have also made. In the final act, He plunges the antagonists (boo, hiss) to their eternal demise, drags the chosen into heaven, writes Himself in as the hero (bravo!), and ultimately applauds His performance and production. (Angels praise and worship on cue! )

Thanks for your reply. I think I agree with everything you wrote.

May I ask about the details of your book?

KT

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thanks for your reply. I think I agree with everything you wrote.

May I ask about the details of your book?

KT

"The 'God is in Control of Everything' Myth" 400 pages. It was first published in 2012 and has undergone several editions and updates.
I would be glad to send you a PDF of the latest edition.

Preface.
Start.
First Thoughts.
Is God Really in Control of Everything?.
The Grand Drama of the Ages.
The Possibility Machine.
The General Attributes of God.
Mere Theism is Theism without Christ
Examples of Mere Theism Overruling the Word.
Restoring the “Father and Son” Paradigm..
Creation Must Be a “Possibility Machine.”.
Creating Timeline For the Possible.
The Key and Reason for All Things.
The Accessible God.
Satan and Evil in a Universe of the Possible.
God Intervenes in Creation.
Accidents in Creation.
Chance and randomness in creation.
Sovereignty.
God the Protector, Deliverer, Healer, and Savior
The Words of Jesus ARE the Declared Will of God!
Is God the God of Evil?.
Good is Good!
Robo God?.
Why Good People Think Bad Things About God.
Is God Reflected in the World Around Us?.
“Jesus People" or "Mere Theist.".
Masks behind Masks.
Black Hole Knowledge?.
Logical End of “God is in Control of Everything.”.
Free Moral Agents in a Free Running Creation.
Control and the Bible.
Job.
Believe It Now..
Appendix A..
Appendix B..
Appendix C..
Other Books by C. Alan Martin.

 

[KevinT]

"The 'God is in Control of Everything' Myth" 400 pages. It was first published in 2012 and has undergone several editions and updates.
I would be glad to send you a PDF of the latest edition.

I'd love to have the PDF. I sent you a private message with my email.

Best wishes
Kevin

 

[KevinT]

NOTE: this is a CROSS-POST.
Original post here. I want to include that text I wrote there in this thread for my future reference. I feel it touches on similar themes as this thread.

QUESTION: is God omniscient?

In classical, Newtonian, thinking, the entire universe is like a giant clockwork. And with sufficient knowledge, someone like God can simply "turn the crank" a bit faster to figure out where a planet will be in its rotation around the sun on a particular future day, or what a human will be doing on that same day. But subsequent research seems to show that God's universe has randomness built into it.

Steven Wolfram, the man behind Wolfram Alpha, has developing a controversial theory of cellular automata wherein every tiny element of the universe just follows simple rules that when combined create the world we see around us. While many think he is on the wrong track, he often mentions an interesting corollary of being "computationally bound." To simplify the limitation, it is that THERE ARE NO FORMULAS that allow one to predict what will happen in the future. Yes, given the rotational speed of the Earth around the sun, it would seem that we can know exactly where it will be a trillion years in the future. But what about randomness found in the behavior of matter at a quantum level? Or the fact that galaxies such as our own Milky Way galaxy can collide with each other? Or that a massive asteroid could hit the earth deflecting its path? Or the Butterfly Effect wherein the tiniest of changes of initial conditions can have tremendous effects on outcome. In the end, you have to wait and actually see what happens. In a Newtonian world view, we would say that God with a perfect understanding of the current state of every atom can know all about the incoming asteroid or colliding galaxies. But if there truly is randomness built in by God, then God Himself could theoretically not know exactly how it will play out.

Would randomness remove the omniscience of God? Yes and No, depending on how one defines omniscience. Imagine a person setting out to drive to the store. They know they are going to the store, and they will make sure they get there. But they might encounter all sorts of bumps in the road or needed detours along the way. But in the end they do arrive just as planned. Another example would be a parent that insists a reluctant child go to school. The child tries this and that approach to be allowed to stay home and "play hooky", but the wise parent heads each attempt off and the child goes to school as planned. In each of these examples, we could say that the person knew the "end from the beginning." They knew their goal, and they had the power to overcome circumstances that arose.

So I would say Yes God in omniscient if one means that God has plans and is able to enact them regardless of random setbacks. And furthermore with great power, able to predict those parts of the universe that have little randomness. I think the Bible texts describing God's ability to see the future fall into this camp.

But I would also say No regarding omniscience if one means that God has the path of every atom in the universe already planned out, and the future is fixed and unchangeable.

KT

 

[KevinT]

Why do Arminians pray? Are you expecting a yes or no to your request?

Thanks for this post, but I have no idea what you are getting at or the significance of Arminians?

KT