Thoughts on God's sovereignty, omniscience and the laws of physics.

[KevinT]

God's will is for us not to sin (sin is transgression of the law) ... God's will is true LOVE and that love is a principle ... When evil atrocities occur it's not God's will (and we most certainly must not state that they are) .... we are living in a war zone ... a spiritual war zone ... and wars are evil and destructive ... but we must also understand the Lord will end this war some day.
Looking forward to when the Lord ends the war .... for eternity ... AMEN!!!

Nicely said, thanks!

KT

 

[KevinT]

@Richard T
...Charles Sproul describes the will of God aptly in applying three categories to it

1. “sovereign efficacious will” of God. .. God decrees a thing and it happens.
2. “perceptive will” that consists of His desires on things that man should follow, such as the ten commandments. [man] can ignore God at his own peril.
3. permissive will. Here God lets things occur by not intervening.

I hadn't encountered this before. I like it. I would point out that sometimes these various principles might be in conflict with each other.

Best wishes,
KT

 

[All Becomes New]

@KevinT

In my personal opinion coming from someone who has been thinking about free will and God's sovereignty for some time, here is the answer I have come to.

First, God's sovereignty is like a king of a kingdom. In fact, Christ is described as a king. What this means is that God does not need to involve Himself in every happening of His kingdom. Rather, God acts selectively and purposefully in His creation.

The universe and humans tend to function much more like waves in the ocean that come in and go out and then it repeats. We all go through phases. We sometimes circle back to what we thought before or are preoccupied with things from our past. Even in the course of history for humans, ideas get reused and recycled. Reality functions just like the stages of rain. The rain falls to the ground. Some water goes into other bodies of water and some it is soaked up by the earth and plants. Then this same water ends up in the clouds and again it rains.

When you understand that free will is not synonymous with randomness, free will makes a lot more sense. People can act "randomly" (although I would never use that word to describe human behavior) but then cannot act contrary to their nature. This is pivotal. Knowing that we do have free will but cannot act against our nature answers a LOT of questions.

 

[KevinT]

@KevinT

In my personal opinion coming from someone who has been thinking about free will and God's sovereignty for some time, here is the answer I have come to.

First, God's sovereignty is like a king of a kingdom. In fact, Christ is described as a king. What this means is that God does not need to involve Himself in every happening of His kingdom. Rather, God acts selectively and purposefully in His creation.

The universe and humans tend to function much more like waves in the ocean that come in and go out and then it repeats. We all go through phases. We sometimes circle back to what we thought before or are preoccupied with things from our past. Even in the course of history for humans, ideas get reused and recycled. Reality functions just like the stages of rain. The rain falls to the ground. Some water goes into other bodies of water and some it is soaked up by the earth and plants. Then this same water ends up in the clouds and again it rains.

When you understand that free will is not synonymous with randomness, free will makes a lot more sense. People can act "randomly" (although I would never use that word to describe human behavior) but then cannot act contrary to their nature. This is pivotal. Knowing that we do have free will but cannot act against our nature answers a LOT of questions.

I like this. I am open to many interpretations. It is just the one where people ascribe to God all the horrible things in the world, just because He "ordained it" -- that is what drives me crazy.

Best wishes,

KT

 

[Rescued One]

Thanks for this post, but I have no idea what you are getting at or the significance of Arminians?

KT

I've attended both Arminian and Calvinist churches. I'm trying to understand the Arminian view point. If an Arminian prays for nine plus unbelieving relatives' salvation and zero come to faith, did my love and kindness and prayers not persuade God?

1 Corinthians 3:6-11(paraphrased)
God gives the growth, while others plant and water, and neither the planter nor the waterer is anything, but only God.

I'm trying to understand. God is more powerful than humans, isn't He? He saved Paul.

 

[KevinT]

I've attended both Arminian and Calvinist churches. I'm trying to understand the Arminian view point. If an Arminian prays for nine plus unbelieving relatives' salvation and zero come to faith, did my love and kindness and prayers not persuade God?

1 Corinthians 3:6-11(paraphrased)
God gives the growth, while others plant and water, and neither the planter nor the waterer is anything, but only God.

I'm trying to understand. God is more powerful than humans, isn't He? He saved Paul.

My denomination has Arminian roots. And I always have to double check that I'm not saying Arianism -- a mistake I've made before. Similar names, but very different issues.

As I understand your question, you are asking how God, who is more powerful than humans, acts in regards to prayer. It seems that your understanding is that the purpose of prayer is to persuade God to act a certain desired way.

Daniel, in the Bible, was told by the angel that he was highly regarded in heaven. If Daniel asked God for a particular favor, I suspect that either God or perhaps various guardian angels would be happy to grant Daniel's wish. This, of course, would be tempered by the feasibility of the request and what effect it would have on others etc. And this would be an example of what you wrote about, praying for unbelieving family members.

I think another aspect of prayer is changing US, rather than changing God. A silly example would be if I kept praying to God to make my wife stop throwing dishes at me. And with time, God is able to help me see that the problem was with ME rather than my wife. And once He changes my heart, suddenly the crashing dishes stop. (To be clear, my wife has never thrown any dishes).

Another aspect of prayer seems to be that of giving God permission to act. He doesn't need our permission, but God seems to respect boundaries. He doesn't force His will or wisdom on those who don't want it. But if I ASK for God to help me, He is ready to spring into action.

So in my mind, I pray because I want God to help me change so that I can be more aligned with His ways, and thus more effective. And by actively asking for His help, I hope to remove any barriers that might keep Him away due to politeness. And I also pray asking for favors, as a child might ask their father for presents.

Does that answer what you were asking?

Best wishes
KT

 

[Palmfever]

Gods will vs what He allows, or tolerates.

God does not get His will done on earth.

God is not willing that any should perish, yet He knows that most humans will do so.

“Narrow is the gate and few there be that find it.”

If you are living in your dream house, and posses all that you desire why pray this would come to fruition? It is now the reality.Why would Christ instruct us to pray that Gods will be done if it is being done and nothing can thwart it? GODS WILL is not being done on earth in the lives of the majority of humanity!

Mat 6
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from the evil one’
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Mat 13
24 Jesus used another illustration. He said, “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who planted good seed in his field. 25 But while people were asleep, his enemy planted weeds in the wheat field and went away. 26 When the wheat came up and formed kernels, weeds appeared.

27 “The owner’s workers came to him and asked, ‘Sir, didn’t you plant good seed in your field? Where did the weeds come from?’

28 “He told them, ‘An enemy did this.’

“His workers asked him, ‘Do you want us to pull out the weeds?’

29 “He replied, ‘No. If you pull out the weeds, you may pull out the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. When the grain is cut, I will tell the workers to gather the weeds first and tie them in bundles to be burned. But I’ll have them bring the wheat into my barn.’ 

John 3:18 states, “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

God “wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth 1 Timothy 2:4.
Unbelievers continue to draw breath each day because The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9.

Gods long term goal will indeed be accomplished, on the Grand Scheme and only in the hearts of those who chose to follow Him.

Humans place to much emphasis on the physical world. They ask questions like, Is it Gods will that I cut of my left hand today? Was it Gods will that Sarah died in an accident...? My wife has cancer...

God says 'Nothing can remove you from His love. He is in the business of saving souls not bodies. This body won't make it into heaven

He also states in Mat 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[KevinT]

God does not get His will done on earth. ... Why would Christ instruct us to pray that Gods will be done if it is being done and nothing can thwart it?

You raise some interesting supports on this point that I had not considered before. I agree with you. Thanks!

KT

 

[David Lamb]

Gods will vs what He allows, or tolerates.

God does not get His will done on earth.

That just is not so. We read in Daniel:

“All the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"” (Da 4:35 NKJV)

So why are we to pray that God's will be done? We are surely not doing so in order to encourage almighty God to perform His own will, rather, that our lived as Christians will be such that they are aligned with God's will, as the angels in heaven do.

 

[KevinT]

That just is not so. We read in Daniel:

“All the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"” (Da 4:35 NKJV)

In my original post (OP) I listed many texts that seem to show that humans have free will. And I also listed many texts that show that God can override mankind's will. I included Dan 4:35 in that list. But you have listed just one text from one side.

So why are we to pray that God's will be done? We are surely not doing so in order to encourage almighty God to perform His own will, rather, that our lived as Christians will be such that they are aligned with God's will, as the angels in heaven do.

I agree that this is an important reason for prayer.

Best wishes,
KT

 

[David Lamb]

In my original post (OP) I listed many texts that seem to show that humans have free will. And I also listed many texts that show that God can override mankind's will. I included Dan 4:35 in that list. But you have listed just one text from one side.


I agree that this is an important reason for prayer.

Best wishes,
KT

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't arguing for or against free will, but just answering the point you made when you said "God does not get His will done on earth." That is why I quoted the verse from Daniel, which says that God does indeed do His will.

 

[Clare73]

In my original post (OP) I listed many texts that seem to show that humans have free will. And I also listed many texts that show that God can override mankind's will. I included Dan 4:35 in that list. But you have listed just one text from one side.
I agree that this is an important reason for prayer.

And I demonstrated in post #3 that God's is always sovereign over everything and does not override man's free will in being/doing so.

 

[Rescued One]

My denomination has Arminian roots. And I always have to double check that I'm not saying Arianism -- a mistake I've made before. Similar names, but very different issues.

As I understand your question, you are asking how God, who is more powerful than humans, acts in regards to prayer. It seems that your understanding is that the purpose of prayer is to persuade God to act a certain desired way.

Daniel, in the Bible, was told by the angel that he was highly regarded in heaven. If Daniel asked God for a particular favor, I suspect that either God or perhaps various guardian angels would be happy to grant Daniel's wish. This, of course, would be tempered by the feasibility of the request and what effect it would have on others etc. And this would be an example of what you wrote about, praying for unbelieving family members.

I think another aspect of prayer is changing US, rather than changing God. A silly example would be if I kept praying to God to make my wife stop throwing dishes at me. And with time, God is able to help me see that the problem was with ME rather than my wife. And once He changes my heart, suddenly the crashing dishes stop. (To be clear, my wife has never thrown any dishes).

Another aspect of prayer seems to be that of giving God permission to act. He doesn't need our permission, but God seems to respect boundaries. He doesn't force His will or wisdom on those who don't want it. But if I ASK for God to help me, He is ready to spring into action.

So in my mind, I pray because I want God to help me change so that I can be more aligned with His ways, and thus more effective. And by actively asking for His help, I hope to remove any barriers that might keep Him away due to politeness. And I also pray asking for favors, as a child might ask their father for presents.

Does that answer what you were asking?

Best wishes
KT

When I was in a Wesleyan church, the pastor had a box with a slit in it, and suggested that we put the names of unbelieving loved ones in it. I prayed for years. One by one my relatives died and never came to the Lord. I not only prayed, I tried to be loving, thoughtful and kind.

I guess they were vessels of wrath? So why pray for people to be saved if God has other plans?

 

[Clare73]

When I was in a Wesleyan church, the pastor had a box with a slit in it, and suggested that we put the names of unbelieving loved ones in it. I prayed for years. One by one my relatives died and never came to the Lord. I not only prayed, I tried to be loving, thoughtful and kind.

I guess they were vessels of wrath? So why pray for people to be saved if God has other plans?

Because you don't know for whom he has other plans. And sometimes his plans include prayer for the one to be saved.

 

[KevinT]

When I was in a Wesleyan church, the pastor had a box with a slit in it, and suggested that we put the names of unbelieving loved ones in it. I prayed for years. One by one my relatives died and never came to the Lord. I not only prayed, I tried to be loving, thoughtful and kind.

I guess they were vessels of wrath? So why pray for people to be saved if God has other plans?

"Vessels of wrath" Ouch. I don't like that way of thinking at all. Countering this mode of thought was one of the reasons I wrote this post.

Best wishes,
Kevin

 

[Clare73]

"Vessels of wrath" Ouch. I don't like that way of thinking at all. Countering this mode of thought was one of the reasons I wrote this post.

Why would you want to counter the way of thought of the infinitely wise, holy, just and loving God as revealed in his word written?

Does he need your advice and counsel?

 

[Rescued One]

"Vessels of wrath" Ouch. I don't like that way of thinking at all. Countering this mode of thought was one of the reasons I wrote this post.

Best wishes,
Kevin

Are you a Universalist? Do you think God saves everyone?

For it is appointed unto man once to die but after this the judgment.

 

[Rescued One]

Why would you want to counter the way of thought of the infinitely wise, holy, just and loving God as revealed in his word written?

Does he need your advice and counsel?

YIKES, sometimes our questions sound harsh.

 

[Clare73]

YIKES, sometimes our questions sound harsh.

Dodging the question. . .

Do you see Jesus as harsh in Mk 9:42-48?

 

[Rescued One]

Because you don't know for whom he has other plans. And sometimes his plans include prayer for the one to be saved.

No, I didn't know and I prayed. But all God's plans come to pass. Satan can't thwart them. I don't pray for the dead.