Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[Valletta]

As I read church history, the office of the pope evolved over centuries. Peter may have been the first bishop of Rome and as such he naturally would have had successors just like every church has a succession of pastors. One retires or dies and another takes over. The fact that Peter had successors does not establish the office of the pope. Papal powers evolved over time and different councils and decrees expanded them and different popes claimed them. It was many centuries before the office of pope, as we know it today, came to be.

It's an office. The presidency of George Washington is a lot different that the presidency of today, you could say it changed, a better word than "evolved," although the Constitution AUTHORITY is very much the same. Now an underground Catholic Church persecuted by the Roman Empire
is quite a change from a Catholic Church allowed to freely practice religion, for example, calling a council would no longer be a problem. Thus controversies could more easily be settled.

The Apostles, and Peter among them, were unique. They were never meant to have successors.

Jesus used words paralleling Isaiah 22 in giving Rock (Peter) the keys of the kingdom. In Isaiah, when the office of prime minister is vacant a new prime minister is chosen:
Isaiah 22:15-25 Thus says the Lord God of hosts, “Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him: 16 What have you to do here and whom have you here, that you have hewn here a tomb for yourself, you who hew a tomb on the height, and carve a habitation for yourself in the rock? 17 Behold, the Lord will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 and whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there shall be your splendid chariots, you shame of your master’s house. 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station. 20 In that day I will call my servant Eli′akim the son of Hilki′ah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. 25 In that day, says the Lord of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a sure place will give way; and it will be cut down and fall, and the burden that was upon it will be cut off, for the Lord has spoken.” RSVCE

Also when the Apostle Judas died a new Apostle was chosen in his place:
Acts 1:12-26 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away; 13 and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. 14 All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.[a]
15 In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry. 18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong[b] he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akel′dama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘Let his habitation become desolate,
and let there be no one to live in it’;
and‘His office let another take.’
21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”[c] 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab′bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi′as. 24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi′as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles. RSVCE

 

[Valletta]

A curious answer, are you trying to say that Mary was saved from the original stain of sin or a sin nature? If so that would not be correct. She had a sin nature and all have sinned (except Jesus)

Mary had no "sin nature."

 

[David Lamb]

Mary had no "sin nature."

So why did she need a Saviour? In the "Magnificat" she said:

“My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” (Lu 1:46-47 NKJV)

 

[Valletta]

So why did she need a Saviour? In the "Magnificat" she said:

“My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” (Lu 1:46-47 NKJV)

Jesus preserved Mary from ever sinning.

 

[David Lamb]

Jesus preserved Mary from ever sinning.

First the bible says nothing about Jesus prevent her from ever sinning, and second, if He did so, she wouldn't need Him as a Saviour.

 

[Valletta]

First the bible says nothing about Jesus prevent her from ever sinning, and second, if He did so, she wouldn't need Him as a Saviour.

I understand, you think in terms of saving those who have sinned, In Mary's case she was saved, but not from an sins she committed, she was saved by God preventing her from sinning.

Jude 24-25 Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, 25 to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. Amen.
RSVCE

As has been noted, the Bible speaks of the "woman" in Genesis and later in Revelation:

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your seed and her seed;
he shall bruise your head,[a]
and you shall bruise his heel.” RSVCE

Revelation 12:1-5 [a]And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. 3 And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; 5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. RSVCE

 

[LoveofTruth]

Mary had no "sin nature."

Romans 3: 23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Romans 5: 12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

Christ came to save sinners and only a sinner need a saviour.

And Mary said,

Luke 1: 47. “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus preserved Mary from ever sinning.

Not one scripture for that doctrine

 

[Valletta]

Not one scripture for that doctrine

Justin Martyr well explained Mary's role in Holy Scripture (circa 155-160 A.D.) in Chapter 100 of Dialogue with Trypho:

He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to your word.' Luke 1:38 And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.

CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 89-108 (Justin Martyr)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Eve sinned while Mary did not.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I understand, you think in terms of saving those who have sinned, In Mary's case she was saved, but not from an sins she committed, she was saved by God preventing her from sinning.

Jude 24-25 Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, 25 to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. Amen.
RSVCE

As has been noted, the Bible speaks of the "woman" in Genesis and later in Revelation:

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your seed and her seed;
he shall bruise your head,[a]
and you shall bruise his heel.” RSVCE

Revelation 12:1-5 [a]And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. 3 And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; 5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. RSVCE

What do those verses have to do with the belief Mary was prevented from sinning? There is nothing in Scripture that supports the idea.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Justin Martyr well explained Mary's role in Holy Scripture (circa 155-160 A.D.) in Chapter 100 of Dialogue with Trypho:

He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to your word.' Luke 1:38 And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.

CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 89-108 (Justin Martyr)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Eve sinned while Mary did not.

That quote does not prove that. Nothing in Scripture says Mary was sinless nor is it required.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Romans 3: 23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Romans 5: 12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

Christ came to save sinners and only a sinner need a saviour.

And Mary said,

Luke 1: 47. “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.”

Catholics dance around this by saying Mary was "saved" by being prevented from sinning. They say this while also denying a sin nature even exists. If there is no sin nature then what makes us sin? Oh, and then they talk about "original justice" which you won't find supported by Scripture. This is the belief that God withheld His sustaining grace from the descendants of Adam. They believe original sin makes God culpable for our sins whereas original justice does not. No matter how you slice it, mankind is sinful apart from the grace of God. Yet nothing in Scripture says Mary was conceived without sin nor that she lived a sinless life. Since Jesus' spirit came from the Father, he had no sin nature as the sin nature is of spiritual, not fleshly origin. A sinful Mary could give birth to a sinless Jesus. They believe Mary to be sinless because it offends their sensibilities that the woman who bore the Savior could be a sinner. They grasp at Scriptures to try and defend this belief but it is not found in Scripture.

It is to God's eternal glory that He can and chooses to use sinful men and women to accomplish His will. David was no saint yet called a "man after God's own heart." Saul was out to destroy the church yet God called him and turned him into Paul the greatest of the Apostles. It is nothing more than human reasoning that says Mary never sinned. Scripture neither teaches nor requires that Mary never sinned.

 

[Valletta]

That quote does not prove that. Nothing in Scripture says Mary was sinless nor is it required.

As we've been through before, many things in Holy Scripture are not explicitly stated. A deep understanding of the Bible shows one that Mary is the "New Eve." We've been through this. Likewise I've made it clear God is not "required" to do anything, God could have made the Ark of the Covenant out of rotted wood and God could have chosen the worst sinner on earth to be the mother of God. But that is not the plan God reveals to us in Holy Scripture.

 

[Valletta]

Catholics dance around this by saying Mary was "saved" by being prevented from sinning. They say this while also denying a sin nature even exists. If there is no sin nature then what makes us sin? Oh, and then they talk about "original justice" which you won't find supported by Scripture. This is the belief that God withheld His sustaining grace from the descendants of Adam. They believe original sin makes God culpable for our sins whereas original justice does not. No matter how you slice it, mankind is sinful apart from the grace of God. Yet nothing in Scripture says Mary was conceived without sin nor that she lived a sinless life. Since Jesus' spirit came from the Father, he had no sin nature as the sin nature is of spiritual, not fleshly origin. A sinful Mary could give birth to a sinless Jesus. They believe Mary to be sinless because it offends their sensibilities that the woman who bore the Savior could be a sinner. They grasp at Scriptures to try and defend this belief but it is not found in Scripture.

It is to God's eternal glory that He can and chooses to use sinful men and women to accomplish His will. David was no saint yet called a "man after God's own heart." Saul was out to destroy the church yet God called him and turned him into Paul the greatest of the Apostles. It is nothing more than human reasoning that says Mary never sinned. Scripture neither teaches nor requires that Mary never sinned.

I'm not sure where you got the term "sin nature," but the Catholic Church teaches about original sin. Mary was preserved from original sin. Satan was able to get Eve to sin, but Mary followed the will of God and was preserved from sinning. As important was her role as the mother of God, Mary was particularly blessed because she did the will of God by obeying His Commandments. This is her role in salvation history as per the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

As we've been through before, many things in Holy Scripture are not explicitly stated. A deep understanding of the Bible shows one that Mary is the "New Eve." We've been through this. Likewise I've made it clear God is not "required" to do anything, God could have made the Ark of the Covenant out of rotted wood and God could have chosen the worst sinner on earth to be the mother of God. But that is not the plan God reveals to us in Holy Scripture.

There is no "new eve." That is a Catholic invention. Any parallels between Eve and Mary are coincidental. Christ being the "second Adam" does not require a second or new eve. Saying that Mary obeyed God where Eve disobeyed is wrong. Mary was a sinner and thus disobeyed God no doubt on many occasions though her sins are not listed for us. She believed God and cooperated with His will as spoken through the angel Gabriel but she did not obey God in all things as she was born in sin and sinned. We don't need a "new eve," just a second Adam. Scripture indicates we fell in Adam. It does not say we fell in Adam and Eve. Yes, Eve sinned but our fallen nature is attributed to Adam not Eve. Mary played no part in our redemption. She bore Jesus, but her mother bore her and her grandmother bore her mother. It is Christ who is unique. He alone provided our redemption. God could have chosen any woman to bear Jesus but there could only be one Jesus. Mary was a wonderful woman who believed the impossible (though not the first to do so) but she is not our redeemer and we do not credit her with our redemption.

 

[Valletta]

There is no "new eve." That is a Catholic invention. Any parallels between Eve and Mary are coincidental. Christ being the "second Adam" does not require a second or new eve. Saying that Mary obeyed God where Eve disobeyed is wrong. Mary was a sinner and thus disobeyed God no doubt on many occasions though her sins are not listed for us. She believed God and cooperated with His will as spoken through the angel Gabriel but she did not obey God in all things as she was born in sin and sinned. We don't need a "new eve," just a second Adam. Scripture indicates we fell in Adam. It does not say we fell in Adam and Eve. Yes, Eve sinned but our fallen nature is attributed to Adam not Eve. Mary played no part in our redemption. She bore Jesus, but her mother bore her and her grandmother bore her mother. It is Christ who is unique. He alone provided our redemption. God could have chosen any woman to bear Jesus but there could only be one Jesus. Mary was a wonderful woman who believed the impossible (though not the first to do so) but she is not our redeemer and we do not credit her with our redemption.

While I am glad you agree with the Catholic teaching that Jesus, not Mary, is our redeemer, your other theories simply are not found in the Bible and go against the teachings of so many of the early Church fathers. You say she sinned but have failed to name any of the sins you think she committed.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

While I am glad you agree with the Catholic teaching that Jesus, not Mary, is our redeemer, your other theories simply are not found in the Bible and go against the teachings of so many of the early Church fathers. You say she sinned but have failed to name any of the sins you think she committed.

Very few characters in the Bible have their sins listed. That Mary's are not explicitly listed does not prove she did not sin. The burden of proof is on those who claim she is sinless since "all have sinned."

Did the Church Fathers Call Mary the “New Eve?” No.

The term “New Eve” appears nowhere in Scripture. In fact, I cannot find it among any of the Church Fathers. Yet this does not prevent apologists, such as Catholic.com, from saying thing…

orthodoxchristiantheology.com

 

[LoveofTruth]

Justin Martyr well explained Mary's role in Holy Scripture (circa 155-160 A.D.) in Chapter 100 of Dialogue with Trypho:

He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to your word.' Luke 1:38 And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.

CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 89-108 (Justin Martyr)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Eve sinned while Mary did not.

Totally wrong this doesn’t prove or show that Mary was not a sinner as all have sinned, and I didn’t see any scriptures for your doctrine it was in thev18 hundreds that the doctrine was stated I believe. Not in scripture

And call no man father that would include the so called “church fathers”, while we can agree with many things they wrote not all is agreed upon abd sone doctrines of error came out of them as well

 

[Valletta]

Totally wrong this doesn’t prove or show that Mary was not a sinner as all have sinned, and I didn’t see any scriptures for your doctrine it was in thev18 hundreds that the doctrine was stated I believe. Not in scripture

And call no man father that would include the so called “church fathers”, while we can agree with many things they wrote not all is agreed upon abd sone doctrines of error came out of them as well

Remember that the Catholic Church existed before one Word of the New Testament was written. When text was chosen by the Catholic Church any text that did not conform with Catholic teaching was rejected. Many truths, such as the Holy Trinity, are not explicitly stated in the Bible but are supported by Holy Scripture. The Angel Gabriel addresses Mary with the title of kecharitōmenē, of which there is no exact English translation. It means Mary was, in the past, embued with a full and everlasting grace. This supports the fact she is sinless. In Genesis the woman is associated with the crushing of the head of the Serpent (Satan) and we see that fulfilled in Revelation. Mary is an important part of salvation history. The first Eve sinned, the "new Eve," Mary, did not.

To call someone a name is a Jewish idiom, an expression, that identifies the essence of what a person is. I have remarked before about how many misinterpretations are caused by a lack of understanding of Jewish idioms. It makes no sense that Paul and Abraham would be referred to as spiritual "fathers" if the Word of God banned it. Let me ask, in the following passage, who do you think the word "fathers" refers to?

1 John 2:13-14 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father. 14 I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. RSVCE

 

[Valletta]

Very few characters in the Bible have their sins listed. That Mary's are not explicitly listed does not prove she did not sin. The burden of proof is on those who claim she is sinless since "all have sinned."

Did the Church Fathers Call Mary the “New Eve?” No.

The term “New Eve” appears nowhere in Scripture. In fact, I cannot find it among any of the Church Fathers. Yet this does not prevent apologists, such as Catholic.com, from saying thing…

orthodoxchristiantheology.com

No, I've proved that "all" does NOT refer to every individual in this case. Newborns have NOT sinned. It is simply a way of speaking, as with all of Judea going out to see John the Baptist. The point of that Biblical passage is not to say that every Roman official in Judea went to see John the Baptist and was baptized. Nor the passage about none being righteous, there are righteous people in the Bible. I understand you were taught Mary sinned, but if you can look at it objectively you will realize there is no support of that claim in the Bible.