If the Resurrection and Rapture are seen as a harvest.. then.. the 7th year...

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I've told you repeatedly.
The Seals are not the wrath of God, even the 6th and 7th prepare for the wrath of God, but it is not until after the 7th and the trumpets begin that the wrath of God begins.

You can repeat your out of context verse all day, it's not going to convince me, because the IN CONTEXT narrative of Revelation says something different.

Your opinion ("The Seals are not the wrath of God") is not in the Bible. What's in the Bible are four dreadful punishments in Ezekiel 14:21. Those four dreadful punishments are a definition of God's wrath. All four of those dreadful punishments appear in Rev 6:8. One of those dreadful punishments appears in Rev 6:4. It is therefore in the Bible that the wrath of God is in the 2nd and 4th seals.

 

[Jamdoc]

Your opinion ("The Seals are not the wrath of God") is not in the Bible. What's in the Bible are four dreadful punishments in Ezekiel 14:21. Those four dreadful punishments are a definition of God's wrath. All four of those dreadful punishments appear in Rev 6:8. One of those dreadful punishments appears in Rev 6:4. It is therefore in the Bible that the wrath of God is in the 2nd and 4th seals.

This is in the bible

Revelation 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is also in the bible

Revelation 7

7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

This is all in the bible
Revelation 6

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

and if we go to the parallel of this (unless you have 2 groups of 144000

Revelation 14

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

and right after this, and note it's after the mark of the beast, which is part of the actual tribulation, that is, persecution, not the wrath of God, the wrath of God is a response to Great Tribulation...

You have this:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

That is, Jesus, coming on the clouds, not a horse.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The first reaping is done by Jesus, they are not put in the winepress of the Wrath of God.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The second reaping, done by an angel, those are put through the Wrath of God.

What isn't in the bible is God's wrath being anything before the 6th seal, and anything before the Son of Man on the Clouds.

How it lays out biblically, Jesus unseals things that He has been sealing and men do things in response to the restraint on them being removed out of the way At some point, the world turns on Christians, another thing Jesus has been keeping sealed, yes we see persecution, widespread even, but we don't see a global, coordinated effort a war on the saints. That is what happens during the 5th seal, and is also illustrated in the second view of these things with the Mark of the Beast.
In Revelation 7 the saints are having come out of Great Tribulation (the 5th seal), and in Revelation 15 they're having overcome the beast and his image and mark and number of his name. They are parallel. Different details of the same thing.

Note that the judgement of the Earth comes after these things, not before. The judgement is on the beast and those who worship his image, and take his mark, the beast who made war on the saints.
God first judges, THEN dispenses wrath. He judges first though.

 

[Jamdoc]

and that Revelation 14 comes back to the idea of this thread, a harvest. If God follows His own laws, that harvest cannot be in the 7th year.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

and that Revelation 14 comes back to the idea of this thread, a harvest. If God follows His own laws, that harvest cannot be in the 7th year.

Most Bible readers can't define God's wrath. They even use the phrase "God's wrath," but they don't understand it well enough to be able to define it. That is the only reason I bring up Ezekiel 14:21. It has four examples of God's wrath. Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

You skipped right over Rev 6:8 (GNT): I looked, and there was a pale-colored horse. Its rider was named Death, and Hades followed close behind. They were given authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill by means of war, famine, disease, and wild animals.

In Rev 6:8, you have an exact match of the same four examples of God's wrath. In Rev 6:8, those four examples of God's wrath brutally kill 25% of the world's population. Are you claiming that those four forms of God's wrath, that kill 25% of the world's population, are not God's wrath?

In Rev 6:4, you will find "war." That's about wars breaking out simultaneously all over the world. Is that not God's wrath?

You are making big mistakes by only going by the phrase "God's wrath." How mad was Jesus when He overturned the tables and benches of the money changers, in Matt 21:12-13? Was that not God's wrath? Does it have to say "God's wrath" to be God's wrath?

 

[Jamdoc]

Most Bible readers can't define God's wrath. They even use the phrase "God's wrath," but they don't understand it well enough to be able to define it. That is the only reason I bring up Ezekiel 14:21. It has four examples of God's wrath. Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

You skipped right over Rev 6:8 (GNT): I looked, and there was a pale-colored horse. Its rider was named Death, and Hades followed close behind. They were given authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill by means of war, famine, disease, and wild animals.

In Rev 6:8, you have an exact match of the same four examples of God's wrath. In Rev 6:8, those four examples of God's wrath brutally kill 25% of the world's population. Are you claiming that those four forms of God's wrath, that kill 25% of the world's population, are not God's wrath?

Yes. These are acts of men, they are permitted by God, they are no longer restrained by God, but they are acts of men. The "wild animals" is "Beasts of the Earth" and in Daniel, and Revelation, what is a "Beast"? It's an Empire, and can be synonymous with its ruler.
The 4th seal, is those things caused by the Empires/Rulers of the Earth

Yes Yes and Yes for the final time, the 4th seal is not the wrath of God it is an act of men that kills 25% of the world's population. God permits it
God ordains it
but Men do it.

Right now NATO and Russia are poised to go to Nuclear war against each other, and have been in the past as well.
The ONLY reason, it has not happened yet, is because God has not allowed it. God has restrained it..

In Rev 6:4, you will find "war." That's about wars breaking out simultaneously all over the world. Is that not God's wrath?

War is an act of men, God just allows it.

You are making big mistakes by only going by the phrase "God's wrath." How mad was Jesus when He overturned the tables and benches of the money changers, in Matt 21:12-13? Was that not God's wrath? Does it have to say "God's wrath" to be God's wrath?

Like, I mean, I don't know how else to say it.
the Martyrs say God hasn't judged the Earth yet
the Angels are held off from harming the Earth until something happens first
the people on Earth say the day of God's wrath is come, as in present tense
Revelation 14 has the hour of judgement is come, after the mark of the beast and then there's Jesus on the clouds

Like, God judges the Earth before He dishes out His wrath on it. Yes He reveals His wrath on individuals, on nations, at various times historically, but there is only 1 time in the past where God has judged the entire Earth and then dispensed His wrath on the entire Earth, and that was the Flood.

Genesis 6

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

This is God judging the Earth, before He dispensed His wrath on it.
God first judges, then dispenses wrath, He does not dispense wrath, and then judge.

The hour of judgement does not happen, until after the Mark of the Beast.
That is what the bible says.
and I parallel it with after the 7th seal, or at the very earliest, after the 6th seal.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes. These are acts of men, they are permitted by God, they are no longer restrained by God, but they are acts of men. The "wild animals" is "Beasts of the Earth" and in Daniel, and Revelation, what is a "Beast"? It's an Empire, and can be synonymous with its ruler.
The 4th seal, is those things caused by the Empires/Rulers of the Earth

Yes Yes and Yes for the final time, the 4th seal is not the wrath of God it is an act of men that kills 25% of the world's population. God permits it
God ordains it
but Men do it.

Right now NATO and Russia are poised to go to Nuclear war against each other, and have been in the past as well.
The ONLY reason, it has not happened yet, is because God has not allowed it. God has restrained it..

War is an act of men, God just allows it.

Like, I mean, I don't know how else to say it.
the Martyrs say God hasn't judged the Earth yet
the Angels are held off from harming the Earth until something happens first
the people on Earth say the day of God's wrath is come, as in present tense
Revelation 14 has the hour of judgement is come, after the mark of the beast and then there's Jesus on the clouds

Like, God judges the Earth before He dishes out His wrath on it. Yes He reveals His wrath on individuals, on nations, at various times historically, but there is only 1 time in the past where God has judged the entire Earth and then dispensed His wrath on the entire Earth, and that was the Flood.

Genesis 6

This is God judging the Earth, before He dispensed His wrath on it.
God first judges, then dispenses wrath, He does not dispense wrath, and then judge.

The hour of judgement does not happen, until after the Mark of the Beast.
That is what the bible says.
and I parallel it with after the 7th seal, or at the very earliest, after the 6th seal.

You have a ton of misunderstandings. I'm done with you.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes. These are acts of men, they are permitted by God, they are no longer restrained by God, but they are acts of men. The "wild animals" is "Beasts of the Earth" and in Daniel, and Revelation, what is a "Beast"? It's an Empire, and can be synonymous with its ruler.
The 4th seal, is those things caused by the Empires/Rulers of the Earth

Yes Yes and Yes for the final time, the 4th seal is not the wrath of God it is an act of men that kills 25% of the world's population. God permits it
God ordains it
but Men do it.

Right now NATO and Russia are poised to go to Nuclear war against each other, and have been in the past as well.
The ONLY reason, it has not happened yet, is because God has not allowed it. God has restrained it..

War is an act of men, God just allows it.

Like, I mean, I don't know how else to say it.
the Martyrs say God hasn't judged the Earth yet
the Angels are held off from harming the Earth until something happens first
the people on Earth say the day of God's wrath is come, as in present tense
Revelation 14 has the hour of judgement is come, after the mark of the beast and then there's Jesus on the clouds

Like, God judges the Earth before He dishes out His wrath on it. Yes He reveals His wrath on individuals, on nations, at various times historically, but there is only 1 time in the past where God has judged the entire Earth and then dispensed His wrath on the entire Earth, and that was the Flood.

Genesis 6

This is God judging the Earth, before He dispensed His wrath on it.
God first judges, then dispenses wrath, He does not dispense wrath, and then judge.

The hour of judgement does not happen, until after the Mark of the Beast.
That is what the bible says.
and I parallel it with after the 7th seal, or at the very earliest, after the 6th seal.

I'm going to do you a favor. I am going to prove how wrong you are. This is just ONE of countless potential examples.

These are your words: "Yes. These are acts of men, they are permitted by God, they are no longer restrained by God, but they are acts of men. The "wild animals" is "Beasts of the Earth" and in Daniel, and Revelation, what is a "Beast"? It's an Empire, and can be synonymous with its ruler. The 4th seal, is those things caused by the Empires/Rulers of the Earth."

Here's Rev 6:8 (ESV): And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Who's doing the killing? Answer: A rider who's name is Death, and Hades who follows him. You twist that into "acts of men." That's not in the verse.

What are Death and Hades using to do the killing? War, famine, pestilence and wild beasts of the earth. It is THEY who direct the war, the spreading of the famine, pestilence and the use wild beasts to kill people and livestock.

What does the verse say? It says "wild beasts of the earth." You twist that into "empires/rulers of the Earth."

I give up, bro.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm going to do you a favor. I am going to prove how wrong you are. This is just ONE of countless potential examples.

These are your words: "Yes. These are acts of men, they are permitted by God, they are no longer restrained by God, but they are acts of men. The "wild animals" is "Beasts of the Earth" and in Daniel, and Revelation, what is a "Beast"? It's an Empire, and can be synonymous with its ruler. The 4th seal, is those things caused by the Empires/Rulers of the Earth."

Here's Rev 6:8 (ESV): And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Who's doing the killing? Answer: A rider who's name is Death, and Hades who follows him. You twist that into "acts of men." That's not in the verse.

What are Death and Hades using to do the killing? War, famine, pestilence and wild beasts of the earth. It is THEY who direct the war, the spreading of the famine, pestilence and the use wild beasts to kill people and livestock.

What does the verse say? It says "wild beasts of the earth." You twist that into "empires/rulers of the Earth."

I give up, bro.

King James has it as "beasts of the earth"
and a beast everywhere else on Earth in Revelation, and Daniel 7, is not referring to wild animals.

The hour of judgement happens *after* the Mark of the Beast.


Like, here's an issue.
Pretribulationists, have "the 7 year tribulation" as being 7 years of God pouring out His wrath on Israel and the "Tribulation Saints" like God is stabbing Israel in the back, God is taking out His wrath on people willing to die for His name and His Word
all while using their Justification of "Jesus wouldn't beat up His bride"
they deflect God's wrath away from them, to other people who get saved. What a god that is there.

Where I see tribulation as acts of men, and God's wrath being a response to tribulation, God avenging what wicked men did to His people. The wrath of God is then not on Israel, and not on the saints, but on the people who persecuted those saints who attempted to divide the land of Israel and tried to kill the remnant.

If you have the wrath of God in the 4th seal then you have God taking out His wrath on the martyrs of the 5th seal.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

King James has it as "beasts of the earth"
and a beast everywhere else on Earth in Revelation, and Daniel 7, is not referring to wild animals.

The hour of judgement happens *after* the Mark of the Beast.

Dude, the "beasts of the earth" are wild beasts.

You have "beasts" misunderstood, and you even have judgments wrong.

The Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10) happens in Heaven on the day of the pre-Trib rapture, per 2 Tim 4:8 ("on that day"). That judgment is only for all resurrected believers (1 Th 4:16) and presently living believers (1 Th 4:17).

There is no judgment in the Trib.

The next judgment is for the AC and the false prophet (Rev 19:20).

After Armageddon, the judgments in Matt 25:31-46 will occur. Those are judgments of the unbelieving survivors of the Trib and those gathered in Matt 24:31 ("the elect"). There is a possibility that new converts who exceed "the number of their fellow servants" for the GM (Rev 6:11) are included in Matt 25:31-40.

After the Millennial Kingdom there are two judgments: Rev 20:10 (Satan), then the Great White Throne of Judgment (Rev 20:11-15). The GWTJ judges all folks who died in sin.

You see? You need a lot of help, and all you do is ignore the truth I present.