If the Resurrection and Rapture are seen as a harvest.. then.. the 7th year...

[Jamdoc]

Sir, I supplied Ezekiel 14:21 to prove to you what exactly God's wrath is. You won't find any of it in the 6th seal. You haven't yet recognized who's making the claim of "God's wrath" in the 6th seal. It's a lying unbeliever. Everyone there is behaving as only unbelievers behave. They are all in terror of an alleged sighting of Jesus. They are all running in terror to hide from Jesus. Sir, you've got to realize all those folks are unbelievers. What they claimed about God's wrath is false. There isn't any of God's wrath in the 6th seal. You can't prove any is there. It's a lie from an unbeliever. Everyone on Earth is there, and all prove they are unbelievers. Sir, no believers enter the Trib. You can't find one believer in the 6th seal. Again, you can't find any certified wrath in the 6th seal. I proved to you what God's wrath is. It is in the 2nd and 4th seals. It is not in the 6th seal. It's a lie from an unbeliever that God's wrath has come.

I'm saying Revelation itself lays out what God's wrath is, it's after the 6th seal, and also the bowls are said to be filled with God's wrath.

and the 6th seal is after the tribulation of those days, Jesus gave the signs as happening after the tribulation, and that's when the signs happen.
Coming up with your own definition of the wrath of God or definition of Tribulation is just not going to work.

Also the Martyred saints are not lying unbelievers. They said God has not judged the Earth yet at the 5th seal, and God does not correct them God tells them to wait a little while longer
God does not take out His wrath on the saints being martyred.
and God actually delays His wrath until the 144k are sealed. The Angels that are to deliver the wrath of God after the 6th seal, are told to hold steady first. It's really not until the 7th seal, the silence in heaven, and the first trumpet that the wrath of God begins.

"I can do all things through a verse out of context" doesn't mean a lot to me..

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I'm saying Revelation itself lays out what God's wrath is, it's after the 6th seal, and also the bowls are said to be filled with God's wrath.

and the 6th seal is after the tribulation of those days, Jesus gave the signs as happening after the tribulation, and that's when the signs happen.
Coming up with your own definition of the wrath of God or definition of Tribulation is just not going to work.

Also the Martyred saints are not lying unbelievers. They said God has not judged the Earth yet at the 5th seal, and God does not correct them God tells them to wait a little while longer
God does not take out His wrath on the saints being martyred.
and God actually delays His wrath until the 144k are sealed. The Angels that are to deliver the wrath of God after the 6th seal, are told to hold steady first. It's really not until the 7th seal, the silence in heaven, and the first trumpet that the wrath of God begins.

"I can do all things through a verse out of context" doesn't mean a lot to me..

You are only going by when the word "wrath" appears. You still haven't defined wrath. When you know what wrath is, you can spot in verses that don't necessarily include the word "wrath." The most severe forms of God's wrath are defined in Ezekiel 14:21. That same wrath appears in the 2nd and 4th seals. Does that make that wrath any less valid because the word "wrath" doesn't appear? If you look closely at the 6th seal, no one is killed. Yet, if you look closely at the 2nd and 4th seals, more than 25% of the world's population is killed. The definition of God's most severe wrath is in those verses. Over 25% of the world's population is killed (Rev 6:8). You need to recognize that is wrath to an extreme. Can you see that?

 

[Jamdoc]

You are only going by when the word "wrath" appears. You still haven't defined wrath. When you know what wrath is, you can spot in verses that don't necessarily include the word "wrath." The most severe forms of God's wrath are defined in Ezekiel 14:21. That same wrath appears in the 2nd and 4th seals. Does that make that wrath any less valid because the word "wrath" doesn't appear? If you look closely at the 6th seal, no one is killed. Yet, if you look closely at the 2nd and 4th seals, more than 25% of the world's population is killed. The definition of God's most severe wrath is in those verses. Over 25% of the world's population is killed (Rev 6:8). You need to recognize that is wrath to an extreme. Can you see that?

I'm going by God not having judged the Earth at the 5th seal.
I'm going by the Angels being restrained from harming the Earth until after the sealing of the 144k.

I'm going by the signs of the 6th seal being those described by Jesus as happening immediately after the tribulation of those days (IE the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal)
I'm going by the saints in heaven after the 6th seal as having come out of great tribulation.

That makes "great tribulation" and the wrath of God 2 different things. Not the same.

Here's the thing about the 4 horsemen, and the 5th seal.
They are not acts of God. they are acts of men that God allows to happen.
if we have a nuclear war right now, 25% of the people on Earth dying is a lowball figure. Would it be an act of God? No. It'd be an act of men that God allows to happen. He doesn't prevent it is all.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I'm going by God not having judged the Earth at the 5th seal.
I'm going by the Angels being restrained from harming the Earth until after the sealing of the 144k.

I'm going by the signs of the 6th seal being those described by Jesus as happening immediately after the tribulation of those days (IE the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal)
I'm going by the saints in heaven after the 6th seal as having come out of great tribulation.

That makes "great tribulation" and the wrath of God 2 different things. Not the same.

Here's the thing about the 4 horsemen, and the 5th seal.
They are not acts of God. they are acts of men that God allows to happen.
if we have a nuclear war right now, 25% of the people on Earth dying is a lowball figure. Would it be an act of God? No. It'd be an act of men that God allows to happen. He doesn't prevent it is all.

I am quoting God in Ezekiel 14:21. Have you read it? It proves that God is speaking and He specifies the four most dreadful forms of His wrath: wars, famine, pestilence and wild animals that brutally kill humans and livestock. Those most dreadful forms of God's wrath occur in the 2nd and 4th seals. Over 25% of the world's population is killed. That is proof that God's wrath starts in the 2nd seal.

The martyrs from all that carnage are the souls under the altar in the 5th seal. Martyrs are new converts who are killed because of their testimony of Jesus.

How many people are killed in the 6th seal? Zero. The 6th seal is not about God's wrath. It's only about solar, lunar and geological phenomena on a scale never before seen. Why? All on Earth are provably unbelievers whom God is trying to get to see that He is God and He really is all-powerful. He is seeking their repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior.

The four horsemen of the seal judgments are commanded from Heaven. Rev 6:1-8 prove it. The horsemen are tools of God to inflict His wrath.

 

[Jamdoc]

I am quoting God in Ezekiel 14:21. Have you read it? It proves that God is speaking and He specifies the four most dreadful forms of His wrath: wars, famine, pestilence and wild animals that brutally kill humans and livestock. Those most dreadful forms of God's wrath occur in the 2nd and 4th seals. Over 25% of the world's population is killed. That is proof that God's wrath starts in the 2nd seal.

The martyrs from all that carnage are the souls under the altar in the 5th seal. Martyrs are new converts who are killed because of their testimony of Jesus.

How many people are killed in the 6th seal? Zero. The 6th seal is not about God's wrath. It's only about solar, lunar and geological phenomena on a scale never before seen. Why? All on Earth are provably unbelievers whom God is trying to get to see that He is God and He really is all-powerful. He is seeking their repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior.

The four horsemen of the seal judgments are commanded from Heaven. Rev 6:1-8 prove it. The horsemen are tools of God to inflict His wrath.

Out of context verse just simply does not apply.
Ezekiel 14 is not about the 70th week of Daniel or about the end. This is about Israel. It's repeated over and over, that it's Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel.

5th seal, the Martyrs ask how long God will postpone Judging the Earth, God does not correct them, you apparently would correct God and tell Him that He was already judging the Earth.
If God during the 5th seal, tells the Martyrs to wait awhile before He judges the Earth, who are you to declare He's already judging?
If the Angels are commanded to hold off judgement until after the 144k, who are you to declare He's been judging already?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Out of context verse just simply does not apply.
Ezekiel 14 is not about the 70th week of Daniel or about the end. This is about Israel. It's repeated over and over, that it's Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel.

5th seal, the Martyrs ask how long God will postpone Judging the Earth, God does not correct them, you apparently would correct God and tell Him that He was already judging the Earth.
If God during the 5th seal, tells the Martyrs to wait awhile before He judges the Earth, who are you to declare He's already judging?
If the Angels are commanded to hold off judgement until after the 144k, who are you to declare He's been judging already?

Ezekiel 14:21 is applicable to the 2nd and 4th seals because they contain the most severe forms of God's wrath, that are proven as such in Ezekiel 14:21. The rest of that chapter may be about Israel, but that one verse (Ezekiel 14:21) serves all generations because it DEFINES the most severe forms of God's wrath, in whatever verse it may be found.

Therefore, God's wrath begins in the 2nd seal. The first verse written about the pre-Trib rapture is 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

"Delivers us" means we are "snatched away," as in a rapture. 1 Th 1:10 is therefore about the pre-Trib rapture because the wrath it speaks about occurs in the 2nd seal. We are "snatched away" pre-Trib because God's wrath factually occurs in the 2nd seal.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Out of context verse just simply does not apply.
Ezekiel 14 is not about the 70th week of Daniel or about the end. This is about Israel. It's repeated over and over, that it's Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel.

5th seal, the Martyrs ask how long God will postpone Judging the Earth, God does not correct them, you apparently would correct God and tell Him that He was already judging the Earth.
If God during the 5th seal, tells the Martyrs to wait awhile before He judges the Earth, who are you to declare He's already judging?
If the Angels are commanded to hold off judgement until after the 144k, who are you to declare He's been judging already?

The 5th seal is about the martyrs from the 2nd and 4th seals. Those martyrs are under the altar, asking Jesus to avenge their deaths on "those who dwell on the earth." Who are "those who dwell on the earth" in the Trib? They are all unbelievers, as proven in the two verses below:

(1) Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

(2) Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

 

[Jamdoc]

Ezekiel 14:21 is applicable to the 2nd and 4th seals because they contain the most severe forms of God's wrath, that are proven as such in Ezekiel 14:21. The rest of that chapter may be about Israel, but that one verse (Ezekiel 14:21) serves all generations because it DEFINES the most severe forms of God's wrath, in whatever verse it may be found.

Therefore, God's wrath begins in the 2nd seal. The first verse written about the pre-Trib rapture is 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

"Delivers us" means we are "snatched away," as in a rapture. 1 Th 1:10 is therefore about the pre-Trib rapture because the wrath it speaks about occurs in the 2nd seal. We are "snatched away" pre-Trib because God's wrath factually occurs in the 2nd seal.

the 2nd and 4th seals are acts of men. When Revelation and Daniel refer to "beasts" they are Empires (except the beasts in heaven are Cherubim)
"By the beasts of the Earth" means by Empires, just as the Beast of Revelation 13 and 17 is an empire.

The famine is manufactured (why it focuses on selling prices not food scarcity), and the wars are caused by men.
In fact, my best guess, it's a nuclear war, that kills by all 3 means, by blast damage, by disease, and by famine simultaneously, because of radioactive fallout both causing disease and poisoning the soil so you can't grow anything in it, 1/4 of the world population is also a lowball figure for a nuclear exchange, they always talk about Russia and the US having 6000 warheads a piece and how that'd kill like 5 billion people. Well what they don't talk about is that both countries limit how many active warheads they have available to no more than 1500, the rest are in storage. So after those 1500 each are used, they'd have to decide it's a good idea to pull out more nukes from storage and use them too, which is, simply not happening. They could also only use about the hundreds or so ICBMs they have a piece, while delaying use of submarine missiles and calling back bombers after the ICBM's, which cannot be recalled, are launched the other 2 arms of their nuclear triads are not "use or lose", the bombers have been scrambled and can be called back, the subs are intended to be second strike weapons and delay their launch. So in effect, a nuclear war between the US and Russia could be limited in scope and as a result, the "lowball" figure matches up.

But the Martyrs are not victims of the 2nd and 4th seals they are specifically victims of the 5th seal, as the reason they are killed is not because of a war or famine, they are murdered for their faith, that is more specifically what Jesus means by "Tribulation" It's not "anything bad that happens" it's religious persecution, it's the war on the saints by Antichrist. The martyrs ask how long till God judges the world, and God tells them to wait.
How do you get that God has already been judging the world in the 2nd and 4th seal, when God tells them to wait at the 5th, and the angels are told to wait until after the sealing of the 144,000.

By the 7th trumpet yes, the saints are gone. They get taken up at the 6th seal. That's why you suddenly have a large group of people in heaven in Revelation 7. That's the outcome of the Rapture.
24 people in heaven are not the rapture unless you believe only 24 people get raptured and have the pride to think you're one of them while millions and even billions of people profess Christ over history but were all rejected.
Rather those 24 are people who resurrected after the crucifixion

Matthew 27

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

What you think God had them die a second time?
That's where your 24 elders come from, it's a priestly course.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

the 2nd and 4th seals are acts of men. When Revelation and Daniel refer to "beasts" they are Empires (except the beasts in heaven are Cherubim)
"By the beasts of the Earth" means by Empires, just as the Beast of Revelation 13 and 17 is an empire.

The famine is manufactured (why it focuses on selling prices not food scarcity), and the wars are caused by men.
In fact, my best guess, it's a nuclear war, that kills by all 3 means, by blast damage, by disease, and by famine simultaneously, because of radioactive fallout both causing disease and poisoning the soil so you can't grow anything in it, 1/4 of the world population is also a lowball figure for a nuclear exchange, they always talk about Russia and the US having 6000 warheads a piece and how that'd kill like 5 billion people. Well what they don't talk about is that both countries limit how many active warheads they have available to no more than 1500, the rest are in storage. So after those 1500 each are used, they'd have to decide it's a good idea to pull out more nukes from storage and use them too, which is, simply not happening. They could also only use about the hundreds or so ICBMs they have a piece, while delaying use of submarine missiles and calling back bombers after the ICBM's, which cannot be recalled, are launched the other 2 arms of their nuclear triads are not "use or lose", the bombers have been scrambled and can be called back, the subs are intended to be second strike weapons and delay their launch. So in effect, a nuclear war between the US and Russia could be limited in scope and as a result, the "lowball" figure matches up.

But the Martyrs are not victims of the 2nd and 4th seals they are specifically victims of the 5th seal, as the reason they are killed is not because of a war or famine, they are murdered for their faith, that is more specifically what Jesus means by "Tribulation" It's not "anything bad that happens" it's religious persecution, it's the war on the saints by Antichrist. The martyrs ask how long till God judges the world, and God tells them to wait.
How do you get that God has already been judging the world in the 2nd and 4th seal, when God tells them to wait at the 5th, and the angels are told to wait until after the sealing of the 144,000.

By the 7th trumpet yes, the saints are gone. They get taken up at the 6th seal. That's why you suddenly have a large group of people in heaven in Revelation 7. That's the outcome of the Rapture.
24 people in heaven are not the rapture unless you believe only 24 people get raptured and have the pride to think you're one of them while millions and even billions of people profess Christ over history but were all rejected.
Rather those 24 are people who resurrected after the crucifixion

Matthew 27

What you think God had them die a second time?
That's where your 24 elders come from, it's a priestly course.

In Rev 6:11, Jesus describes what will be two groups of martyrs for the GM ("great multitude" found in Rev 7:9-17). Jesus used the phrase "fellow servants" when referencing the second group that will be martyred. That second group is found in Rev 20:4. All of these martyrs will be resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They will all appear together in Heaven, as proven by Rev 7:9-17. The first group of martyrs comes from the worldwide killing sprees in the 2nd and 4th seals. The second group comes from the vicious slaughters in Rev 12:17 and Rev 13:7.

The first and second "beasts" in Rev 13 are the AC (antichrist) and the false prophet.

I can tell we are not ever going to agree. I love you as a brother in Christ. God bless!

 

[Jamdoc]

In Rev 6:11, Jesus describes what will be two groups of martyrs for the GM ("great multitude" found in Rev 7:9-17). Jesus used the phrase "fellow servants" when referencing the second group that will be martyred. That second group is found in Rev 20:4. All of these martyrs will be resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They will all appear together in Heaven, as proven by Rev 7:9-17. The first group of martyrs comes from the worldwide killing sprees in the 2nd and 4th seals. The second group comes from the vicious slaughters in Rev 12:17 and Rev 13:7.

The first and second "beasts" in Rev 13 are the AC (antichrist) and the false prophet.

I can tell we are not ever going to agree. I love you as a brother in Christ. God bless!

Revelation 7 is not a flash forward.
Jesus doesn't return at Revelation 19, He has already been on Earth at that point (the blood on His clothing is the blood from Him treading the winepress of His wrath, shown in Revelation 14:14-20 (which also depicts the rapture, it's a parallel to Revelation 7 unless you believe there are 2 groups of 144,000)

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 7 is not a flash forward.
Jesus doesn't return at Revelation 19, He has already been on Earth at that point (the blood on His clothing is the blood from Him treading the winepress of His wrath, shown in Revelation 14:14-20 (which also depicts the rapture, it's a parallel to Revelation 7 unless you believe there are 2 groups of 144,000)

Rev 7 is an interlude, just as other sections of a few other chapters are interludes. Not all of the chapters of Revelation align with their numerical sequence. Rev 7 is part of the 2nd half of the Trib.

Jamdoc, I have two very dear friends who are Bible scholars, where one even knows the Greek version of the Bible. Please know that I carefully pass on to others what I have learned from them. They are strict adherents to the Bible, and "interludes" in the Bible are part of it.

I don't want anymore messages from you. Thank you! God bless!

 

[Jamdoc]

I don't care about scholars, theologians, etc, etc. The signs at the sixth seal match what Jesus said. Not Revelation 19.
Revelation 19 He's already has His clothes bloody from treading the winepress as per Isaiah 63
The resurrection, and rapture, happens when Jesus appears in Heaven when He is returning.

There is no secret rapture. Even 1 Thessalonians 4 has trumpets and shouting. It's noisy and obvious.
The bible simply doesn't support "left behind", regardless of what any "scholars" post Darby will say.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I don't care about scholars, theologians, etc, etc. The signs at the sixth seal match what Jesus said. Not Revelation 19.
Revelation 19 He's already has His clothes bloody from treading the winepress as per Isaiah 63
The resurrection, and rapture, happens when Jesus appears in Heaven when He is returning.

There is no secret rapture. Even 1 Thessalonians 4 has trumpets and shouting. It's noisy and obvious.
The bible simply doesn't support "left behind", regardless of what any "scholars" post Darby will say.

Please answer this: Is it true that God’s most severe wrath appears in the 2nd and 4th seals?

 

[Jamdoc]

Please answer this: Is it true that God’s most severe wrath appears in the 2nd and 4th seals?

No, as those are man caused events.

God's wrath is the trumpets and the bowls. the 3 woes might be the most significant, afterall they are called the 3 woes. A demonic invasion that makes people wish they could die but they can't, another demonic army that kills 1/3 of the population on Earth while the remainder curse and blaspheme God, and the last being the complete overthrow of all Earthly Kingdoms and I believe parallels with Armageddon. But among the bowls you have the sun scorching men, all the water on Earth turning to blood and killing all sea life, 100 pound hailstones, etc. That's wrath of God... things that men cannot do.

Men cause the 2nd and 4th seals, God just allows it.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, as those are man caused events.

God's wrath is the trumpets and the bowls. the 3 woes might be the most significant, afterall they are called the 3 woes. A demonic invasion that makes people wish they could die but they can't, another demonic army that kills 1/3 of the population on Earth while the remainder curse and blaspheme God, and the last being the complete overthrow of all Earthly Kingdoms and I believe parallels with Armageddon. But among the bowls you have the sun scorching men, all the water on Earth turning to blood and killing all sea life, 100 pound hailstones, etc. That's wrath of God... things that men cannot do.

Men cause the 2nd and 4th seals, God just allows it.

All the seal judgments start in Heaven. It is Jesus who breaks the seal on each of the seal judgments. This is proven in Rev 6:1-12 and Rev 8:1. They are not caused by humans. The seals will occur as God commanded in each one.

It is God Almighty who punishes: Leviticus 26:26 (NLT): I will punish you. I will bring sudden terrors upon you—wasting diseases and burning fevers that will cause your eyes to fail and your life to ebb away. You will plant your crops in vain because your enemies will eat them.

The most dreadful of God's wrath is specified in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Those same dreadful punishments are in Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

The dreadful punishments cited in Ezekiel 14:21 are matched 100% in Rev 6:8, and "war" is the overriding punishment in Rev 6:4.

One more time: Does God's most dreadful wrath occur in the 2nd and 4th seals?

 

[Jamdoc]

All the seal judgments start in Heaven. It is Jesus who breaks the seal on each of the seal judgments. This is proven in Rev 6:1-12 and Rev 8:1. They are not caused by humans. The seals will occur as God commanded in each one.

No, they are caused by men, they are allowed to happen by God. It is 4 horsemen, not angels. When each of the first four seals is loosed, there is no command for the horsemen to do anything, they just go. They've been let go. God has been restraining these things from happening and when each seal is loosed, that restraint is removed, and people do what they've always been determined to do but God impeded them from doing. You know we've come within seconds of all out nuclear war multiple times and each time the decision was stopped by 1 man with a conscience to wait or to not launch? Cuban Missile Crisis, Able Archer, and the Norwegian Weather Rocket incident, and that's just the times the RUSSIANS have LET US KNOW they had almost launched their missiles and were restrained at the last moment.
Think if God had not been restraining, that is the the first 5 seals.

It is God Almighty who punishes: Leviticus 26:26 (NLT): I will punish you. I will bring sudden terrors upon you—wasting diseases and burning fevers that will cause your eyes to fail and your life to ebb away. You will plant your crops in vain because your enemies will eat them.

The most dreadful of God's wrath is specified in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Those same dreadful punishments are in Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

The dreadful punishments cited in Ezekiel 14:21 are matched 100% in Rev 6:8, and "war" is the overriding punishment in Rev 6:4.

One more time: Does God's most dreadful wrath occur in the 2nd and 4th seals?

No. It's not at all the wrath of God. If the first 5 seals are the wrath of God, then God has taken out His wrath on His own martyrs, and is a backstabbing God.
God lets men kill the saints, but God is not taking out His wrath on them.

The 6th seal the wrath of God is come. the 7th trumpet the wrath of God is come, the 7 bowls are each said to be filled with the wrath of God.
Nowhere in the first 5 seals are they said to be the wrath of God.
Just Jesus looses a seal, and "come and see" but the thing happening is not being commanded, the command is 'come and see" what is already happening as a result of the horseman

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, they are caused by men, they are allowed to happen by God. It is 4 horsemen, not angels. When each of the first four seals is loosed, there is no command for the horsemen to do anything, they just go. They've been let go. God has been restraining these things from happening and when each seal is loosed, that restraint is removed, and people do what they've always been determined to do but God impeded them from doing. You know we've come within seconds of all out nuclear war multiple times and each time the decision was stopped by 1 man with a conscience to wait or to not launch? Cuban Missile Crisis, Able Archer, and the Norwegian Weather Rocket incident, and that's just the times the RUSSIANS have LET US KNOW they had almost launched their missiles and were restrained at the last moment.
Think if God had not been restraining, that is the the first 5 seals.

No. It's not at all the wrath of God. If the first 5 seals are the wrath of God, then God has taken out His wrath on His own martyrs, and is a backstabbing God.
God lets men kill the saints, but God is not taking out His wrath on them.

The 6th seal the wrath of God is come. the 7th trumpet the wrath of God is come, the 7 bowls are each said to be filled with the wrath of God.
Nowhere in the first 5 seals are they said to be the wrath of God.
Just Jesus looses a seal, and "come and see" but the thing happening is not being commanded, the command is 'come and see" what is already happening as a result of the horseman

You are not going by the Bible, specifically Rev 6:1-12. Those seals are under the full command of Jesus at all times.

One of the greatest proofs of that is the 5th seal. Rev 6:11 (ESV): Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Jesus is in FULL CONTROL of each and every seal. He even knows how many have been killed, and how many more will be killed and when all of that will take place. Rev 6:11 proves it!

God's wrath, in the Trib, starts in the 2nd seal. You have run out of attempts to disprove that, because, again, Jesus is in FULL CONTROL of all the seals, at all times, and Rev 6:11 proves it!

1 Th 1:10 is the first verse written about the pre-Trib rapture. The 2nd seal is where God's wrath is "to come." It's nearest to the beginning of the Trib, and that is exactly what Paul was referring to. We will be pre-Trib raptured.

Rev 4:1 is wholly in the future because Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his entire vision of Revelation. Rev 22:8 proves it!

 

[Jamdoc]

You are not going by the Bible, specifically Rev 6:1-12. Those seals are under the full command of Jesus at all times.

One of the greatest proofs of that is the 5th seal. Rev 6:11 (ESV): Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Jesus is in FULL CONTROL of each and every seal. He even knows how many have been killed, and how many more will be killed and when all of that will take place. Rev 6:11 proves it!

God's wrath, in the Trib, starts in the 2nd seal. You have run out of attempts to disprove that, because, again, Jesus is in FULL CONTROL of all the seals, at all times, and Rev 6:11 proves it!

1 Th 1:10 is the first verse written about the pre-Trib rapture. The 2nd seal is where God's wrath is "to come." It's nearest to the beginning of the Trib, and that is exactly what Paul was referring to. We will be pre-Trib raptured.

Rev 4:1 is wholly in the future because Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his entire vision of Revelation. Rev 22:8 proves it!

Yes, God is sovereign, at all times.
But there is a difference between God directly acting, vs God permitting humans to do things, it's in His will that they do them, because these things must be done, but it is not something He Himself does.

Take the example of Judas Iscariot.
Jesus had to be betrayed so that He would die on the cross to atone for everyone's sins. However Jesus did NOT cause Judas to betray Him. Judas betrayed Jesus out of his own heart, Jesus just permitted him to do it, because it was a necessary evil.

That is the case of the first 5 seals too.
Jesus does NOT take out wrath against His own people who die for His name and for the Word of God.
He does however, let the Antichrist make war on the saints, because it is a necessary evil, God sovereignly allows the evil to happen by someone else's actions, when He could restrain it.

Jesus currently restrains certain things, such as a 1 world government, nuclear war, the destruction of Israel by its neighbors, wholesale corruption of the bible or banning of the bible, etc. These things would happen if Jesus stopped restraining them. It wouldn't be Jesus destroying Israel, or banning the bible, or causing a nuclear war, or starting a corrupt world government.
But if He stopped restraining them, He would be allowing for it to happen. All totally under His control.

But there's a difference between allowing someone else to do something, vs doing it yourself.

Look at 1 Kings 22

19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

God wanted Ahab to be killed, but was not going to do it Himself, He wanted an enemy to kill him, and so Ahab had to be convinced to go out against the enemy so he could be killed.
A lying spirit went and convinced Ahab to go, to fulfill God's purposes.
Did God lie? No. God cannot lie.
But God allowed another agent to lie, to fulfill God's purposes.

There's a distinction.

to a degree even the bowls and trumpets are dealt with by agents of God rather than God directly. It's God's wrath in the trumpets, it's God's wrath in the bowls.
But God had agents do it for Him.

However, Jesus Himself will be personally administering wrath as well. Isaiah 34, Isaiah 63, and Revelation 19 all have Jesus personally delivering the wrath of God.

In the bible, tribulation is never equated to being God's wrath. Tribulation is always equated to religious persecution, attempts at forced conversion to another religion, imprisonment, martyrdom

That is how "great tribulation" is worse than any that has been on the Earth before. If "tribulation" meant "anything bad that killed people" well the flood killed everyone but 8.
But the flood was not tribulation, the flood was the wrath of God.

Different things.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes, God is sovereign, at all times.
But there is a difference between God directly acting, vs God permitting humans to do things, it's in His will that they do them, because these things must be done, but it is not something He Himself does.

Take the example of Judas Iscariot.
Jesus had to be betrayed so that He would die on the cross to atone for everyone's sins. However Jesus did NOT cause Judas to betray Him. Judas betrayed Jesus out of his own heart, Jesus just permitted him to do it, because it was a necessary evil.

That is the case of the first 5 seals too.
Jesus does NOT take out wrath against His own people who die for His name and for the Word of God.
He does however, let the Antichrist make war on the saints, because it is a necessary evil, God sovereignly allows the evil to happen by someone else's actions, when He could restrain it.

Jesus currently restrains certain things, such as a 1 world government, nuclear war, the destruction of Israel by its neighbors, wholesale corruption of the bible or banning of the bible, etc. These things would happen if Jesus stopped restraining them. It wouldn't be Jesus destroying Israel, or banning the bible, or causing a nuclear war, or starting a corrupt world government.
But if He stopped restraining them, He would be allowing for it to happen. All totally under His control.

But there's a difference between allowing someone else to do something, vs doing it yourself.

Look at 1 Kings 22

God wanted Ahab to be killed, but was not going to do it Himself, He wanted an enemy to kill him, and so Ahab had to be convinced to go out against the enemy so he could be killed.
A lying spirit went and convinced Ahab to go, to fulfill God's purposes.
Did God lie? No. God cannot lie.
But God allowed another agent to lie, to fulfill God's purposes.

There's a distinction.

to a degree even the bowls and trumpets are dealt with by agents of God rather than God directly. It's God's wrath in the trumpets, it's God's wrath in the bowls.
But God had agents do it for Him.

However, Jesus Himself will be personally administering wrath as well. Isaiah 34, Isaiah 63, and Revelation 19 all have Jesus personally delivering the wrath of God.

In the bible, tribulation is never equated to being God's wrath. Tribulation is always equated to religious persecution, attempts at forced conversion to another religion, imprisonment, martyrdom

That is how "great tribulation" is worse than any that has been on the Earth before. If "tribulation" meant "anything bad that killed people" well the flood killed everyone but 8.
But the flood was not tribulation, the flood was the wrath of God.

Different things.

Yes, God is sovereign, at all times.
But there is a difference between God directly acting, vs God permitting humans to do things, it's in His will that they do them, because these things must be done, but it is not something He Himself does.

Take the example of Judas Iscariot.
Jesus had to be betrayed so that He would die on the cross to atone for everyone's sins. However Jesus did NOT cause Judas to betray Him. Judas betrayed Jesus out of his own heart, Jesus just permitted him to do it, because it was a necessary evil.

That is the case of the first 5 seals too.
Jesus does NOT take out wrath against His own people who die for His name and for the Word of God.
He does however, let the Antichrist make war on the saints, because it is a necessary evil, God sovereignly allows the evil to happen by someone else's actions, when He could restrain it.

Jesus currently restrains certain things, such as a 1 world government, nuclear war, the destruction of Israel by its neighbors, wholesale corruption of the bible or banning of the bible, etc. These things would happen if Jesus stopped restraining them. It wouldn't be Jesus destroying Israel, or banning the bible, or causing a nuclear war, or starting a corrupt world government.
But if He stopped restraining them, He would be allowing for it to happen. All totally under His control.

But there's a difference between allowing someone else to do something, vs doing it yourself.

Look at 1 Kings 22

God wanted Ahab to be killed, but was not going to do it Himself, He wanted an enemy to kill him, and so Ahab had to be convinced to go out against the enemy so he could be killed.
A lying spirit went and convinced Ahab to go, to fulfill God's purposes.
Did God lie? No. God cannot lie.
But God allowed another agent to lie, to fulfill God's purposes.

There's a distinction.

to a degree even the bowls and trumpets are dealt with by agents of God rather than God directly. It's God's wrath in the trumpets, it's God's wrath in the bowls.
But God had agents do it for Him.

However, Jesus Himself will be personally administering wrath as well. Isaiah 34, Isaiah 63, and Revelation 19 all have Jesus personally delivering the wrath of God.

In the bible, tribulation is never equated to being God's wrath. Tribulation is always equated to religious persecution, attempts at forced conversion to another religion, imprisonment, martyrdom

That is how "great tribulation" is worse than any that has been on the Earth before. If "tribulation" meant "anything bad that killed people" well the flood killed everyone but 8.
But the flood was not tribulation, the flood was the wrath of God.

Different things.

We are all instruments of God, even if we reject Him. That is not the point.

Whether there is God's wrath in the 2nd and 4th seals is the question. There are four severe punishments God renders. They are DEFINED in Ezekiel 14:21. They are war, famine, wild animals (that kill humans and livestock), and disease.

The Trib is about 21 judgments of God's wrath. They include seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowls. You want to be dismissive of the seals, and maybe even the trumpets by citing "tribulation" versus "wrath." I will prove why. The death toll from the 4th seal alone rivals any from the trumpets or bowls. If you haven't noticed, all four forms of God's most severe forms of wrath lead to agonizing deaths. 25% of the world's population is brutally killed in the 4th seal, by way of disease, famine, wars and wild animals. Nuclear weapons are not cited. Those causes of agonizing deaths, on a global scale, is the epitome of God's wrath. So, it is invalid that the early seals are not God's wrath. They are thoroughly the definition of God's wrath.

The four forms of God's most severe wrath are in the 4th seal. War is one of those forms of God's wrath, and it's the centerpiece of the 2nd seal. These are wars that occur simultaneously all over the world. There is such misery and bloodshed, it can't be logically defined any other way than God's wrath.

You may not be familiar with exactly how the start of the Trib goes. 1 Th 5:1-3 (ESV): Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

All hell breaks loose at the opening of the 1st seal, and then the 2nd seal, etc.

God's wrath begins no later than the 2nd seal.

1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture.

Are you aware that Jesus promised to keep believers from the Trib?

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

In Rev 3:10, Jesus cites two groups. The first group is designated by “you.” He is therein only referencing believers. The word “those” designates the second group. The full reference is “those who dwell on the earth.” You will find that in the context of the Trib, “those who dwell on the earth” is a reference exclusive to unbelievers. Please see the related verses below that occur in the Trib:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on upon those who dwell on the earth?”

Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth

In Rev 3:10, we are “you” and we will be kept from the Trib. “Those who dwell on the earth” will be tried by 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

 

[Jamdoc]

We are all instruments of God, even if we reject Him. That is not the point.

Whether there is God's wrath in the 2nd and 4th seals is the question. There are four severe punishments God renders. They are DEFINED in Ezekiel 14:21. They are war, famine, wild animals (that kill humans and livestock), and disease.

The Trib is about 21 judgments of God's wrath. They include seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowls. You want to be dismissive of the seals, and maybe even the trumpets by citing "tribulation" versus "wrath." I will prove why. The death toll from the 4th seal alone rivals any from the trumpets or bowls. If you haven't noticed, all four forms of God's most severe forms of wrath lead to agonizing deaths. 25% of the world's population is brutally killed in the 4th seal, by way of disease, famine, wars and wild animals. Nuclear weapons are not cited. Those causes of agonizing deaths, on a global scale, is the epitome of God's wrath. So, it is invalid that the early seals are not God's wrath. They are thoroughly the definition of God's wrath.

The four forms of God's most severe wrath are in the 4th seal. War is one of those forms of God's wrath, and it's the centerpiece of the 2nd seal. These are wars that occur simultaneously all over the world. There is such misery and bloodshed, it can't be logically defined any other way than God's wrath.

You may not be familiar with exactly how the start of the Trib goes. 1 Th 5:1-3 (ESV): Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

All hell breaks loose at the opening of the 1st seal, and then the 2nd seal, etc.

God's wrath begins no later than the 2nd seal.

1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture.

Are you aware that Jesus promised to keep believers from the Trib?

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

In Rev 3:10, Jesus cites two groups. The first group is designated by “you.” He is therein only referencing believers. The word “those” designates the second group. The full reference is “those who dwell on the earth.” You will find that in the context of the Trib, “those who dwell on the earth” is a reference exclusive to unbelievers. Please see the related verses below that occur in the Trib:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on upon those who dwell on the earth?”

Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth

In Rev 3:10, we are “you” and we will be kept from the Trib. “Those who dwell on the earth” will be tried by 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

I've told you repeatedly.
The Seals are not the wrath of God, even the 6th and 7th prepare for the wrath of God, but it is not until after the 7th and the trumpets begin that the wrath of God begins.

You can repeat your out of context verse all day, it's not going to convince me, because the IN CONTEXT narrative of Revelation says something different.