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Question to those who follow tradition.

Always in His Presence

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For those who follow tradition - regardless of age.

How do you know the traditions are accurate? of even from God?

So many fly in the face of Scripture and there have been so many errors through the almost 2,000 years of tradition, how do you determine which are of God and which are not?
 
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mourningdove~

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For those who follow tradition - regardless of age.

How do you know the traditions are accurate? of even from God?
I would like to understand this better also.
I hope you'll get some informed answers.
 
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RileyG

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There was no canon of scripture for 400 years, how do you trust it?

In all seriousness, it's based on what the early Church Fathers taught, what has been handed down etc.

Each Christian community has their own traditions whether they admit it or not.

Blessings
 
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Always in His Presence

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There was no canon of scripture for 400 years, how do you trust it?

In all seriousness, it's based on what the early Church Fathers taught, what has been handed down etc.

Each Christian community has their own traditions whether they admit it or not.

Blessings

Thank you.
 
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RileyG

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Always in His Presence

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I hope I answered your question? I did it based on my own tradition and experiences.

God bless
To an extent, yes - it would lead to more questions - but I really do not want to turn this into anything other than what you provided - an honest reply.

Thanks again
 
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RileyG

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To an extent, yes - it would lead to more questions - but I really do not want to turn this into anything other than what you provided - an honest reply.

Thanks again
You're welcome! :)

Take care.
 
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mourningdove~

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There was no canon of scripture for 400 years, how do you trust it?

In all seriousness, it's based on what the early Church Fathers taught, what has been handed down etc.
I should know the answer to this, but I honestly don't:

With regard to "Tradition" in the RCC, is "Tradition" just referring to those things taught by the early Church Fathers?

Or, can "Tradition" be added to? Example: Can the current pope add something to 'Tradition"?
 
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RileyG

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I should know the answer to this, but I honestly don't:

With regard to "Tradition" in the RCC, is "Tradition" just referring to those things taught by the early Church Fathers?

Or, can "Tradition" be added to? Example: Can the current pope add something to 'Tradition"?
I think so, yes.
 
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dzheremi

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While I don't really see any inherent problem in it for those who do so, I don't personally like referring to what we do in the Orthodox Church as "following tradition", precisely because these kinds of questions come up where people (understandably) want to know how we can know that xyz is accurate or from God or what have you, and other churches (e.g., the RCC) may make distinctions regarding what tradition is or isn't that aren't exactly relevant to what we are doing in the Coptic Orthodox Church. So rather than saying "We follow tradition, but in the sense of how these other people are doing it" (which can be taken as a criticism when none is intended, or be seen as needlessly confusing to those who don't necessarily understand the differences in mindset and theology between different communions), I prefer to say "We follow our fathers and mothers in the faith."

It is notable that when we celebrate the liturgy, we are very explicit in showing in detail who and what we mean by "the fathers", as is preserved for example in the Commemoration prayer that is part of the Liturgy of St. Basil (the liturgy for 'ordinary time' in our Church):

Priest:
As this, O Lord, is the command of Your only-begotten Son, that we share in the commemoration of Your saints, graciously accord, O Lord, to remember all the saints who have pleased You since the beginning:
our holy fathers the patriarchs, the prophets, the Apostles, the preachers, the evangelists, the martyrs, the confessors, and all the spirits of the righteous perfected in the faith.
Most of all, the pure, full-of-glory, ever-virgin, holy Theotokos, Saint Mary, who truly gave birth to God the Logos.
And Saint John the forerunner, baptist, and martyr; Saint Stephen the archdeacon and protomartyr; the beholder-of-God, Saint Mark the Evangelist, the apostle and martyr;
the patriarch Saint Severus; our teacher Dioscorus; Saint Athanasius the Apostolic; Saint Peter, the holy martyr and high priest;
Saint John Chrysostom; Saint Theodosius; Saint Theophilus; Saint Demetrius; Saint Cyril; Saint Basil; Saint Gregory the Theologian; Saint Gregory the Wonderworker; Saint Gregory the Armenian;
the three hundred and eighteen assembled at Nicea; the one hundred and fifty at Constantinople; and the two hundred at Ephesus;
our righteous father, the great Abba Anthony; the righteous Abba Paul; the three saints Abba Macarii and all their children, the cross-bearers;
our father Abba John the hegumen; our righteous father Abba Pishoy, the perfect man, the beloved of our good Savior.
[If the priest chooses, he may add the following:
Our father Abba Paul of Tammoh and Ezekiel his disciple; my lords, the Roman fathers Saints Maximus and Dometius; the Forty-nine Martyrs; the elders of Shiheet; the strong saint Abba Moses; John Kame the priest; our father Abba Daniel the hegumen; our father Abba Isidore the priest; our father Abba Pachom of the Koinonia, and Theodore his disciple; our father Abba Shenoute the archmandrite, and Abba Wesa his disciple;]
and all the choir of Your saints, through whose prayers and supplications have mercy on us all and save us, for the sake of Your holy name, which is called upon us.
Deacon:
Let those who read, recite the names of our holy fathers, the patriarchs who have fallen asleep. O Lord repose their souls, and forgive us our sins.
People:
May their holy blessing be with us. Amen.
Glory to You, O Lord. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord, bless us. Lord, repose them. Amen.

+++

And similarly, from the absolution of the servants, which is part of the offertory:

Priest:
May Your servants, ministers of this day, the hegomen(s), the priest(s), the deacon(s), the clergy, all the people, and my weak self, be absolved from the mouth of the All- Holy Trinity, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and from the mouth of the one, only, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
And from the mouths of the twelve apostles; and from the mouth of the Beholder of God the Evangelist Saint Mark, the apostle and martyr; the patriarch Saint Severus; our teacher Dioscorus, Saint Athanasius the Apostolic; Saint Peter the holy martyr and the high priest; Saint John Chrysostom; Saint Cyril.
Saint Basil; and Saint Gregory; and from the mouths of the three hundred and eighteen assembled at Nicea; the one hundred and fifty at Constantinople, and the two hundred at Ephesus; And from the mouth of our Honored father the high priest Pope Abba [Tawadros] and from the mouth of my abject self.
For blessed and full of glory is Your holy Name, O Father and Son and Holy Spirit, now and at all times and unto the age of all ages. Amen.

+++

Neither of these lists of fathers is to be taken as exhaustive (we do not consider the "age of the fathers" to have a fixed end date, and we have way more saints than we could ever commemorate liturgically), but they do represent the 'fixed' parts of their specific sections of the liturgy, so they are instructive as to who is considered a father in our Church, for the purposes of answering this question.

So when questions come up like "How do you know that XYZ is authentic/true/Biblically-sound?", we can actually answer that by looking at the lives, teachings, writings (for those who left any), etc. of the listed saints. In essence, these commemorations are saying, "These are the people we trust as having correctly passed on the faith", whether we're looking at an individual saint or an ecumenical council. (This is why the "age of the fathers" is never closed for us, because in every generation there are those who rightly contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. Jude 1:3)

Just so it's out there, this is not to say that the saints or any particular church leader or notable is or has ever been infallible. In Orthodoxy, there is only one person Who is infallible, and that is Christ (not any bishop). So, for instance, the second century apologist St. Justin Martyr taught in some of his writings that matter preexisted with God. That is not our belief, and never has been, as God is not dependent on anything else. So there is still a sense of holding everyone, past and present, accountable to the same standard of faith, and to the extent that they have taught anything wrongly, only accepting and baptizing into the Church that which it is right to baptize. We trust the Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth and the Lord and giver of life, to guide us corporally to make such determinations when it is necessary to do so. In 2,000 years of Christianity in Egypt (and in Ethiopia, Sudan, Armenia, India, etc.), this is how it has been, so we would say it is right to put our trust in God, rather than in what can be intellectually convincing.
 
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RileyG

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Thanks, Riley! :)

(I think my understanding of the word "Tradition" has been too narrow, which is why this thread caught my attention.)
One example is Pope Leo XIII adding the prayers after a low Latin mass (3 Hail Mary’s, Hail Holy Queen, St. Michael the Archangel, and Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us)

Or any prayers composed by clergy or religious.
 
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The Liturgist

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While I don't really see any inherent problem in it for those who do so, I don't personally like referring to what we do in the Orthodox Church as "following tradition", precisely because these kinds of questions come up where people (understandably) want to know how we can know that xyz is accurate or from God or what have you, and other churches (e.g., the RCC) may make distinctions regarding what tradition is or isn't that aren't exactly relevant to what we are doing in the Coptic Orthodox Church. So rather than saying "We follow tradition, but in the sense of how these other people are doing it" (which can be taken as a criticism when none is intended, or be seen as needlessly confusing to those who don't necessarily understand the differences in mindset and theology between different communions), I prefer to say "We follow our fathers and mothers in the faith."

It is notable that when we celebrate the liturgy, we are very explicit in showing in detail who and what we mean by "the fathers", as is preserved for example in the Commemoration prayer that is part of the Liturgy of St. Basil (the liturgy for 'ordinary time' in our Church):

Priest:
As this, O Lord, is the command of Your only-begotten Son, that we share in the commemoration of Your saints, graciously accord, O Lord, to remember all the saints who have pleased You since the beginning:
our holy fathers the patriarchs, the prophets, the Apostles, the preachers, the evangelists, the martyrs, the confessors, and all the spirits of the righteous perfected in the faith.
Most of all, the pure, full-of-glory, ever-virgin, holy Theotokos, Saint Mary, who truly gave birth to God the Logos.
And Saint John the forerunner, baptist, and martyr; Saint Stephen the archdeacon and protomartyr; the beholder-of-God, Saint Mark the Evangelist, the apostle and martyr;
the patriarch Saint Severus; our teacher Dioscorus; Saint Athanasius the Apostolic; Saint Peter, the holy martyr and high priest;
Saint John Chrysostom; Saint Theodosius; Saint Theophilus; Saint Demetrius; Saint Cyril; Saint Basil; Saint Gregory the Theologian; Saint Gregory the Wonderworker; Saint Gregory the Armenian;
the three hundred and eighteen assembled at Nicea; the one hundred and fifty at Constantinople; and the two hundred at Ephesus;
our righteous father, the great Abba Anthony; the righteous Abba Paul; the three saints Abba Macarii and all their children, the cross-bearers;
our father Abba John the hegumen; our righteous father Abba Pishoy, the perfect man, the beloved of our good Savior.
[If the priest chooses, he may add the following:
Our father Abba Paul of Tammoh and Ezekiel his disciple; my lords, the Roman fathers Saints Maximus and Dometius; the Forty-nine Martyrs; the elders of Shiheet; the strong saint Abba Moses; John Kame the priest; our father Abba Daniel the hegumen; our father Abba Isidore the priest; our father Abba Pachom of the Koinonia, and Theodore his disciple; our father Abba Shenoute the archmandrite, and Abba Wesa his disciple;]
and all the choir of Your saints, through whose prayers and supplications have mercy on us all and save us, for the sake of Your holy name, which is called upon us.
Deacon:
Let those who read, recite the names of our holy fathers, the patriarchs who have fallen asleep. O Lord repose their souls, and forgive us our sins.
People:
May their holy blessing be with us. Amen.
Glory to You, O Lord. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord, bless us. Lord, repose them. Amen.

+++

And similarly, from the absolution of the servants, which is part of the offertory:

Priest:
May Your servants, ministers of this day, the hegomen(s), the priest(s), the deacon(s), the clergy, all the people, and my weak self, be absolved from the mouth of the All- Holy Trinity, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and from the mouth of the one, only, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
And from the mouths of the twelve apostles; and from the mouth of the Beholder of God the Evangelist Saint Mark, the apostle and martyr; the patriarch Saint Severus; our teacher Dioscorus, Saint Athanasius the Apostolic; Saint Peter the holy martyr and the high priest; Saint John Chrysostom; Saint Cyril.
Saint Basil; and Saint Gregory; and from the mouths of the three hundred and eighteen assembled at Nicea; the one hundred and fifty at Constantinople, and the two hundred at Ephesus; And from the mouth of our Honored father the high priest Pope Abba [Tawadros] and from the mouth of my abject self.
For blessed and full of glory is Your holy Name, O Father and Son and Holy Spirit, now and at all times and unto the age of all ages. Amen.

+++

Neither of these lists of fathers is to be taken as exhaustive (we do not consider the "age of the fathers" to have a fixed end date, and we have way more saints than we could ever commemorate liturgically), but they do represent the 'fixed' parts of their specific sections of the liturgy, so they are instructive as to who is considered a father in our Church, for the purposes of answering this question.

So when questions come up like "How do you know that XYZ is authentic/true/Biblically-sound?", we can actually answer that by looking at the lives, teachings, writings (for those who left any), etc. of the listed saints. In essence, these commemorations are saying, "These are the people we trust as having correctly passed on the faith", whether we're looking at an individual saint or an ecumenical council. (This is why the "age of the fathers" is never closed for us, because in every generation there are those who rightly contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. Jude 1:3)

Just so it's out there, this is not to say that the saints or any particular church leader or notable is or has ever been infallible. In Orthodoxy, there is only one person Who is infallible, and that is Christ (not any bishop). So, for instance, the second century apologist St. Justin Martyr taught in some of his writings that matter preexisted with God. That is not our belief, and never has been, as God is not dependent on anything else. So there is still a sense of holding everyone, past and present, accountable to the same standard of faith, and to the extent that they have taught anything wrongly, only accepting and baptizing into the Church that which it is right to baptize. We trust the Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth and the Lord and giver of life, to guide us corporally to make such determinations when it is necessary to do so. In 2,000 years of Christianity in Egypt (and in Ethiopia, Sudan, Armenia, India, etc.), this is how it has been, so we would say it is right to put our trust in God, rather than in what can be intellectually convincing.

+

By the way, I love how you maintain the Coptic Orthodox tradition, which is a Holy Tradition in how it points to the Gospel message of the victory of Christ over death on the Cross, which I also try to practice in some of my posts, of putting a cross at the start of writings. I am very thankful our keyboards retain a Greek Cross character, even if this is only done for purposes of addition.

+

I remembering being awe struck the first time I visited a Coptic Orthodox monastery, and I was mentioning some Syriac Orthodox saints it would be interesting to see in their bookshop, and Abouna Thomas, who at the time had just become a monk (this was about nine years ago) wrote down a list of the books, the first thing he did on the paper was draw a cross.

+

I feel that making the sign of the Cross is exemplary as an example of a Holy Tradition, in that it is illustrative of the Gospel and is a gestural prayer by which we express our faith in the salvific power of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
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RileyG

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Ah, yes.

The Sign of the Cross is a beautiful tradition made by all of the apostolic Churches.
 
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For those who follow tradition - regardless of age.

How do you know the traditions are accurate? of even from God?

So many fly in the face of Scripture and there have been so many errors through the almost 2,000 years of tradition, how do you determine which are of God and which are not?

The traditions which fly in the face of Scripture are those referred to by Mark 7:13, that are associated with the “Oral Torah” of the Pharisees, and the Scribes who wrote it down, wherein it became the Mishnah, and then the commentary on the Mishnah known as the Talmud, which resulted in the very unusual system wherein in an attempt to avoid even the possibility of violating the Torah, Rabinnical Judaism, particularly in the forms commonly called Conservative, Masorti and Orthodox, follows an interpretation of Halakha (religious law) which seems to contradict the obvious meaning of the Old Testament. These are the traditions that as I see it “fly in the face of scripture”, and we don’t see them among the Karaite Jews, most of whom now live in Israel, but some of whom live in the US, and have a synagogue in Daly City, California, as well as an association of Karaite Jews in the US, and also the Beta Israel of Ethiopia, and also some Reform Jews, who in discarding strict adherence to the norms of Sephardic and Ashkanazi and Mizrahi and Romaniote Judaic orthodoxy, practice something which seems more logically congruent with the Old Testament.

But it is important to understand also that the Pharisees had made an error, but were still in a better situation in terms of their misguided piety than the Sadducees, who had given up on the idea of the Resurrection, and indeed tried to dispute with our Lord concerning it, which gave Christ our True God the opportunity to inform Christians of the need to reject divorce, which is done in a particularly cruel and hostile way in, for example, some branches of Chassidic Judaism, and I don’t really like the way women are treated within those communities, but conversely I dislike the increasing normalization of anti-Chassidic and anti-Charedi media material, in that some of it is obviously exploiting the suffering occuring within communities of Judaism for an anti-Semitic purpose or for a political purpose within the context of Israeli politics, and given that we have seen a frightening attempt to make anti-Semitism an acceptable cause celebre in response to Israel’s legitimate military response to the horrifying terror attacks last October, more than an attempt, a conspiracy really, I want to be clear that in criticizing these aspects of Judaism, I have nothing but love for the Jewish people, and also the study of the Jewish and Samaritan liturgies is extremely useful in studying the origin of the daily Morning, Evening and Night prayers of Christians (commonly known as Matins, Vespers and Compline), which became particularly important and which were prayed at those times, often in cemeteries where Christian martyrs were buried, due to persecution from the ancient Roman Empire, which also persecuted the Jews and Samaritans.

we also come across invalid traditions, for example, in the practices of certain Christian denominations which are on the fringe, for example, the liturgical rites for homosexual marriage adopted by the declining liberal mainline churches, which are broadly unacceptable, or the worship practices of Unitarians, or Oneness Pentecostals, or many other related groups. Quakers who refuse to engage in Baptism or the Eucharist, that is to say, the Lord’s Supper or Holy Communion, are another problematic group. They have placed their own tradition above that which has been received, taught in scripture, and historically practiced by the Christian church on a unanimous basis.

We can positively assert, unconditionally, that there is such a thing as Holy Tradition, from an exegetical reading of the New Testament, which plainly says as much in 11 Corinthians 2, and 2 Thessalonians 2:15, and Galatians 1:8-9, and this traditiion includes the four canonical Gospels at its core, and also includes the vitally important New Testament canon, the Nicene Creed, and other central articles of faith.

We can differentiate between this authentic tradition, which was embraced by the early Protestants such as Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer, but not entirely embraced by those of the Radical Reformation, who were, due to a reaction against the excesses of the Roman Catholic church, put in a position of reacting against anything perceived to be Catholic, the result being similiar to the Restorationist churches of the 1800s - some things they got right, and others, not so much, when we look at groups such as the Anabaptists or Puritans, among the Radical Reformation, or the Stone/Campbell Movement and the Plymouth Brehtren among the Restorationists (the latter two being admirable nonetheless, particularly among Restorationist churches, since several Restorationist churches went completely off the rails, whereas the Stone/Campbell movement actually managed to restore something which had become very uncommon at the time, that being the weekly reception of the Eucharist, which John Wesley had also sought to restore, but which Methodists subsequently moved away from for unknown reasons, with the idea of the weekly Eucharist instead being taken up by High Church Anglicanism and much of Lutheranism.

From an Orthodox perspective, it is particularly easy to understand our traditions, because they can be unpacked through a simple study of Patristics and ecclesiastical history. For example, we reject the supreme authority of the bishop of Rome because it clashes with both the canons of the Council of Nicaea (canons 6 and 7) and the obvious reality of how the early church functioned (if St. Celestine, who was the Bishop of Rome when Nestorius was Patriarch of Constantinople, had the power to unilaterally depose Nestorius, he would have done so, for he was a friend and ally of Pope St. Cyril of Alexandria - note that I said Pope in the latter case and not the former, because at the time the bishops of Alexandria were known as Popes, and the bishops of Rome were not yet known by that title, but I would use the title Pope in reference to Pope St. Gregory of Rome, who was called Pope and who is much loved by the Eastern Orthodox, and who made contributions to both the Byzantine and Roman liturgical heritage.

It is also in the liturgy that one finds a continuity of Holy Tradition and the basis for how Scripture is interpreted - specifically through the appointed scripture lessons and hymns that are sung throughout the liturgical year of the ancient churches. The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox liturgies in particular preserve what we agree with, but most of the key aspects are supported in the traditional Western liturgies, and in the liturgy of the Assyrian Church of the East, and indeed if one goes far enough back in terms of the history of Western liturgics, there ceases to be any disagreement between it and the Orthodox liturgies, so the Roman Rite and the Gallican, Mozarabic and Ambrosian Rite liturgies, and various uses of the Roman Rite such as the Old Sarum Rite, have been of great interest, particularly to Western Rite Orthodox Christians in the Antiochian Orthodox and ROCOR churches, and to me personally, given my Congregationalist background and my desire to promote Orthodoxy among Congregationalist Christians as something which can and should be embraced (which indeed was the direction being pursued at the King’s Weigh House, the celebrated Congregational church in the City of London, which unfortunately merged with another parish and disappeared into what became the very un-traditional United Reformed Church after WWII, due to the depopulation of the City of London.*

*The City of London is a neighborhood in the center of the London metropolitan area that has its own autonomous government, which consists of a square mile area containing St. Paul’s Cathedral, the Old Bailey, which is a major courthouse, and which represented the ancient extent of the City of London before Metropolitan London grew to encompass the adjacent City of Westminster and all the surrounding Burroughs of what was at one time the County of Middlesex.

One particularly interesting area for me is to study the history of the churches in Greater London, formerly the County of Middlesex, such as Westminster Abbey, the Savoy Chapel, and those churches in the City of London proper, such as St. Stephen Walbrook, the Temple Church, St. Magnus the Martyr, St. Clement Danes, St. Bartholomew the Great, and many others.
 
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The Liturgist

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Ah, yes.

The Sign of the Cross is a beautiful tradition made by all of the apostolic Churches.

Indeed, and it is done in a few different ways, with the Russian Old Rite Orthodox and Old Believers using two fingers to represent the humanity and divinity of our Lord, and the Eastern Orthodox making the sign right to left, along with the Assyrians, while the Oriental Orthodox and the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Anglicans make the sign left to right across the chest. These specific regional differences I quite like, as they underscore the distinctive cultural expressions of different Christians, which we also see reflected in the different regional traditions of iconography - you have Byzantine Iconography, Western iconography (particularly Romanesque Iconography and Scandinavian iconography such as that found in the beautiful Round Churches in Bornholm, and in Gotland), and the Coptic iconography, the Syriac iconography, the Ethiopian iconography and the Armenian iconography. These are all beautiful and authentic expressions of Christianity.

And we see iconography in the very early church, for example, in the catacombs of Rome and the now-destroyed house church in Dura Europos, which was obliterated, along with an ancient synagogue, which also had iconography, by the barbarians of ISIS during the worst years of their insurrection.
 
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dzheremi

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I remembering being awe struck the first time I visited a Coptic Orthodox monastery, and I was mentioning some Syriac Orthodox saints it would be interesting to see in their bookshop, and Abouna Thomas, who at the time had just become a monk (this was about nine years ago) wrote down a list of the books, the first thing he did on the paper was draw a cross.

Similar to your experience, when I was at the monastery of St. Shenouda in upstate NY a decade ago, it was to do linguistic fieldwork for my master's thesis, so I had to bring release forms with me for everyone to sign to make sure that I was legally allowed to record their voices and make use of said recordings in developing a corpus to be analyzed in said thesis (this is an legal requirement whenever you work with human subjects as a researcher), and I noticed that when I collected the signed forms from those of clerical rank, they signed them and incorporated a cross into their signatures. The monk who was in charge of me also signed his name (in English) with the surname "The Shenoutian", in keeping with the Coptic Orthodox monastic tradition of taking the monastery's name as your surname, which I thought was interesting to see on a legal document. (This did not cause any problems for me later on when I had to produce the signed forms for the review board, thankfully.)

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I feel that making the sign of the Cross is exemplary as an example of a Holy Tradition, in that it is illustrative of the Gospel and is a gestural prayer by which we express our faith in the salvific power of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Indeed it is.
 
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The Liturgist

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Similar to your experience, when I was at the monastery of St. Shenouda in upstate NY a decade ago, it was to do linguistic fieldwork for my master's thesis, so I had to bring release forms with me for everyone to sign to make sure that I was legally allowed to record their voices and make use of said recordings in developing a corpus to be analyzed in said thesis (this is an legal requirement whenever you work with human subjects as a researcher), and I noticed that when I collected the signed forms from those of clerical rank, they signed them and incorporated a cross into their signatures. The monk who was in charge of me also signed his name (in English) with the surname "The Shenoutian", in keeping with the Coptic Orthodox monastic tradition of taking the monastery's name as your surname, which I thought was interesting to see on a legal document. (This did not cause any problems for me later on when I had to produce the signed forms for the review board, thankfully.)



Indeed it is.

One of the many things I love about the Coptic Orthodox Church (and if you recall I do regard the Oriental Orthodox as entirely Orthodox - the main reason why my faith ID says “Generic Orthodox” is that I did not want to exclude the Oriental Orthodox from my profession of Christianity) is its extreme devotion to the Holy Cross. One also sees this in Armenian Orthodoxy with the carved stone crosses known as Kachkars, which the Azerbaijanis have been systematically destroying. In the Coptic Orthodox church, the Cross is everywhere, but so is a rich iconography that in many cases is extremely similar to Byzantine iconography in terms of its organization, with a recognizable Iconostasis, differing mainly in the lack of doors in addition to the curtains, but one could argue those are superfluous, although there are also interesting ancient Coptic iconostases in Old Cairo which are among the oldest in the world, older than most Byzantine iconostases, and from which we can potentially reconstruct what Eastern Orthodox churches looked like before the terrible scourge of the Iconoclasm destroyed most of the icons except for those preserved at St. Catharine’s in Sinai.

I also love the use of carved crosses in Coptic church decoration, particularly the decorative use of the Jerusalem cross.
 
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ViaCrucis

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For those who follow tradition - regardless of age.

How do you know the traditions are accurate? of even from God?

So many fly in the face of Scripture and there have been so many errors through the almost 2,000 years of tradition, how do you determine which are of God and which are not?

Can you name someone that doesn't follow tradition? Any tradition?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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For those who follow tradition - regardless of age.

How do you know the traditions are accurate? of even from God?

So many fly in the face of Scripture and there have been so many errors through the almost 2,000 years of tradition, how do you determine which are of God and which are not?
You know it is kind of funny, I like me some tradition but I also like to keep things up to date and making sense. Most here seem to think that scripture is beyond tradition....dropped down from the sky as is directly from God. Well I admit that we do have to start with something and scripture seems to be universally revered. But since at least the enlightenment and higher scripture scholarship we have recognized that there is a great deal more going on than simply a literal retelling of history. Many of us have recognized a need to review and adapt our interpretations of scripture. That is, break with tradition. In the same way, looking at established practices, especially elated to piety, there has been some recognition of need for reform. For example, Mass in vernacular in stead of Latin, religious no longer wearing habits, etc.

The critical discernment is : how do we remain faithful to the primary revelation of our faith, Jesus Christ while at the same time addressing the needs of our current times and place in a way that brings about the Kingdom of God in our personal lives as well as the world itself. The Roman Catholic Church is a good example of the struggle that can entail. There is great tension within the RCC. But I think that is good. We need the diversity but we also need to learn better to talk and listen to each other without bitterness and judgment.
 
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