SALVATION

[setst777]

1 Peter 3:20-21 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. RSVCE

We are indeed saved through the sacrament of Baptism as the Bible states, water is the sign of the sacrament. The Didache gives us a look at the methods of Baptism by Christians (including pouring water over the head) during the first century:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism​

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Lord Jesus instituted the Great Commission; in that, we are to make disciples of all nations. The only true believers are "disciples." Only disciples of Lord Jesus should be baptized, teaching them to obey all things that Lord Jesus taught them.

Matthew 28:19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them [disciples] in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them [disciples] to obey all things that I commanded you.

 

[Valletta]

Lord Jesus instituted the Great Commission; in that, we are to make disciples of all nations. The only true believers are "disciples." Only disciples of Lord Jesus should be baptized, teaching them to obey all things that Lord Jesus taught them.

Matthew 28:19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them [disciples] in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them [disciples] to obey all things that I commanded you.

Baptism replaced circumcision, where the faith of the parents was enough. Jesus wanted the children to come to Him and would not prohibit infants from Baptism. Jesus fulfilled the old in the new. Whole households were baptized.

 

[setst777]

Baptism replaced circumcision, where the faith of the parents was enough. Jesus wanted the children to come to Him and would not prohibit infants from Baptism. Jesus fulfilled the old in the new. Whole households were baptized.

Regarding Baptism, Lord Jesus did commission the Church to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them [disciples].

Matthew 28:19-20 Go and make disciples [followers] of all nations, baptizing them [disciples] in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them [disciples] to obey all things that I commanded you.

Blessing the children, and dedicating children to God, is a good thing, but baptism is for disciples, those who, by faith, commit to die to their old life of sin, and commit to rise with Christ into a new life of righteousness and love (Romans 6:1-8; Colossians 3:1-17). That is what Baptism represents.

Romans 6:2-8 (WEB) 2 We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him

Colossians 3:1 (WEB) 1-14 (WEB) If then you were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, our life, is revealed, then you will also be revealed with him in glory. 5 Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: sexual immorality, uncleanness, depraved passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 For these things’ sake the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 You also once walked in those, when you lived in them; 8 but now you also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and shameful speaking out of your mouth. 9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator, 11 where there can’t be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, or free person; but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, if any man has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so you also do. 14 Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection.

Baptism represents that good confession to God.

1 Peter 3:21 And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also — not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Miracle-working faith is not saving faith

Jesus didn’t say that they didn’t have faith in Matthew 7:21-27, He said that they practiced lawlessness. He specifically told them exactly why they were being condemned.

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell and great was its fall.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬-‭27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Miracle-working faith is not saving faith (Mt 7:22-23).

Paul is addressing Christians about the Christian life after salvation, not about the saving faith that got them there.

Saving faith loves.

In 1 Corinthians 13:2 Paul was conveying an abundance of faith not a fake or counterfeit faith. You conjure up these terms to dismiss the passages that refute your theology when it’s not supported by the context of the passage. You say that faith results in works and it results in love but that’s not what the Bible actually teaches. The Bible actually teaches that there were believers who had faith but didn’t have love for others. There were believers who had faith and didn’t do works. John 15:2 Jesus said The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that doesn’t bear fruit. Nobody can be in Christ who doesn’t believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the NT, that is the work of the Holy Spirit in the individual (Php 2:13), and I don't think it can be better denoted any other way.

That’s provided that they don’t grieve the Holy Spirit and they’re not setting their mind on the flesh instead of the Spirit. Ephesians 4:30 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's God working it in us to act it out (Php 2:13).

Then why did Jesus say this in John 15:2? Or in John 15:6?

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How are these situations possible if God is going to work everything out for us?

 

[Valletta]

Regarding Baptism, Lord Jesus did commission the Church to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them [disciples].

Matthew 28:19-20 Go and make disciples [followers] of all nations, baptizing them [disciples] in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them [disciples] to obey all things that I commanded you.

Blessing the children, and dedicating children to God, is a good thing, but baptism is for disciples, those who, by faith, commit to die to their old life of sin, and commit to rise with Christ into a new life of righteousness and love (Romans 6:1-8; Colossians 3:1-17). That is what Baptism represents.

Romans 6:2-8 (WEB) 2 We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him

Colossians 3:1 (WEB) 1-14 (WEB) If then you were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, our life, is revealed, then you will also be revealed with him in glory. 5 Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: sexual immorality, uncleanness, depraved passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 For these things’ sake the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 You also once walked in those, when you lived in them; 8 but now you also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and shameful speaking out of your mouth. 9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator, 11 where there can’t be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, or free person; but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, if any man has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so you also do. 14 Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection.

Baptism represents that good confession to God.

1 Peter 3:21 And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also — not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

Indeed, Jesus did not take a step backward and deny children. The pledge of the parents, as it was in OT times, is sufficient.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Review Mt 7:22-23 again.

Yes let’s do that

“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Can satan cast out satan?

“But He knew their thoughts and said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? So they will be your judges. But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed. But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11‬:‭17‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Clare73]

Call it doctrine if you want, but you are not saved if you are not in the correct doctrine of Faith.

You are not saved if you are not in the correct practice of faith; i.e., not relying on good works for your salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).

 

[Clare73]

Jesus didn’t say that they didn’t have faith in Matthew 7:21-27, He said that they practiced lawlessness. He specifically told them exactly why they were being condemned.

No one of true (saving) faith is condemned (Jn 6:37, 39).
Any faith that results in condemnation is counterfeit faith.

 

[Clare73]

In 1 Corinthians 13:2 Paul was conveying an abundance of faith not a fake or counterfeit faith. You conjure up these terms to dismiss the passages that refute your theology when it’s not supported by the context of the passage. You say that faith results in works and it results in love but that’s not what the Bible actually teaches. The Bible actually teaches that there were believers who had faith but didn’t have love for others. There were believers who had faith and didn’t do works.

Faith without works is counterfeit faith.

John 15:2 Jesus said The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that doesn’t bear fruit. Nobody can be in Christ who doesn’t believe.

The principle is simple: Saving faith is not condemned, while counterfeit faith is condemned.

If you are condemned, your "faith" was counterfeit.

 

[Clare73]

That’s provided that they don’t grieve the Holy Spirit

The grieved Holy Spirit can return with repentance.
It's not a spiritual death sentence.

and they’re not setting their mind on the flesh instead of the Spirit. Ephesians 4:30 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

If their minds are totally set on the flesh, their faith is counterfeit.

 

[Clare73]

Then why did Jesus say this in John 15:2? Or in John 15:6?
“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

"Me" being the body of Christ, the called-out assembly (ekklesia, the church), wherein we find both wheat and tares (Mt 13:4-30).

How are these situations possible if God is going to work everything out for us?

"God works everything" for those of true faith (wheat), not for those of counterfeit faith (tares).

Those of Jn 15:2, 6 are of counterfeit faith.

 

[Clare73]

Yes let’s do that

“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and
in Your name perform many miracles?’” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Can satan cast out satan?

Prophesy in your name. . .perform many miracles in your name. . .and condemned by Jesus.
Their faith was counterfeit. . .as demonstrated in Jesus' condemnation of them.

 

[AbbaLove]

One thing apparent in this SALVATION thread is that one member, in particular, desires to debate for the "sake of debating." As if that is his "calling" to present his denominational theology as the correct theology. Even to the extent that he believes Paul's order is "wrong" and yet he believes in the inerrancy of scripture ...

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Perhaps out of all the translations there is one that agrees with his theological order with justification preceding sanctification. See post #169 ...

"faith --> salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection --> glorification (immortal, sinless, glorious body like Christ's)"​

Religious pride can get the better of us IF one thinks their "calling" is to promote their denominational theology as thee true God-given theology ...

All the rest is being "sanctified" (Ro 6:16, 19), after being "justified" (declared "not guilty," made acceptable to God by sin forgiven/removed through faith, Ro 3:28).

So is his "calling" to instruct others in the correct order for SALVATION ... being different from that of Paul's order (1 Cor. 6:11)? Or is his objective to debate for the sake of debate what he believes is God's preferred order (not Paul's order) for SALVATION ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

No one of true (saving) faith is condemned (Jn 6:37, 39).
Any faith that results in condemnation is counterfeit faith.

John 6:37 says if they continue to come to Him they will not be cast out and John 6:39 says it is the Father’s desire that Jesus lose none, it doesn’t say that Jesus will lose none because that would directly contradict John 15:6. So you still haven’t explained how John 15:2 and John 15:6 don’t refute your interpretation of Phil 2:13.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Prophesy in your name. . .perform many miracles in your name. . .and condemned by Jesus.
Their faith was counterfeit. . .as demonstrated in Jesus' condemnation of them.

Jesus specifically said exactly why He condemned them, because of their lawlessness, He never said anything about a counterfeit faith. You’re conjuring this idea of a “counterfeit faith” out of thin air. The context is those who hear His words and don’t act on them, not those who pretend to believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The grieved Holy Spirit can return with repentance.
It's not a spiritual death sentence.

If their minds are totally set on the flesh, their faith is counterfeit.

Again you keep conjuring up this idea of a counterfeit faith and Paul absolutely did say that they could lose their salvation if you continue reading another 7 verses. The message continues in Ephesians 5. That’s why Ephesians 5 begins with the word “Therefore”.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul absolutely said that they would NOT have an inheritance in the Kingdom of God if they continued to grieve the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore we can go to Galatians 3:1-3 abd Galatians 5:4 and see this same example of people who had received the Holy Spirit and were severed from Christ and had fallen from grace.

“You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Right here Paul says they received the Holy Spirit.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Right here he says they have lost their salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"Me" being the body of Christ, the called-out assembly (ekklesia, the church), wherein we find both wheat and tares (Mt 13:4-30).

Yep I completely anticipated this response but tares are never in Christ. No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws them and it’s satan who plants the tares not The Father so that explanation doesn’t work either. And just to save time I’ll go ahead and refute your response in reference to 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 in advance, Paul is ONLY talking about people who are building on the foundation of Christ not people who are not building on that foundation. So that explanation isn’t going to work either. Jesus never once says that anyone is in Him who is not actually in Him. Furthermore in every example that Jesus gave of anything not producing fruit He has nothing but contempt for them and the result was destruction. So again your response is not biblical.