Foolishness and deceptiveness of orthodox beliefs

[ArmyMatt]

Do you believe that James was referring to being counted as righteous before God or being shown or evinced as righteous in James 2:24?

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

both

 

[BNR32FAN]

both

Amen, Matthew 7:21-27 and Romans 2:13 also support this view.

For me I’m still a bit undecided. I tend to think that’s it’s not the works themselves but the motivation behind the works that is taken into consideration.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Please exegete Eph 2:8-9.

We'll continue this conversation after you have dealt with post #29.

I already did in post 33. however, it’s pretty foolish to try to exegete some verses apart from following ones.

 

[Clare73]

“If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If one does not have love, their faith is counterfeit and does not save.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If one does not have love, their faith is counterfeit and does not save.

Is that the message Paul is giving? I don’t see any indication that Paul was referring to a counterfeit faith. What verse supports this statement?

 

[BNR32FAN]

If one does not have love, their faith is counterfeit and does not save.

Faith allows us to receive the Holy Spirit, but receiving the Holy Spirit is useless if we ignore Him.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[ArmyMatt]

this isn’t the forum for two non-Orthodox to debate each other.

 

[Clare73]

Is that the message Paul is giving? I don’t see any indication that Paul was referring to a counterfeit faith.
What verse supports this statement?

It's not the point of his message, but it is the basis of his point.

 

[Clare73]

Faith allows us to receive the Holy Spirit,

No, the Holy Spirit is the new birth which is the source of our faith.

but receiving the Holy Spirit is useless if we ignore Him.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Ignoring him is unprofitable for good works and their rewards, but it still saves (1 Co 3:11-15).

 

[BNR32FAN]

this isn’t the forum for two non-Orthodox to debate each other.

Sorry didn’t realize what forum this was in.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sorry didn’t realize what forum this was in.

no worries, just a way to keep this subforum in good order and not turn into a free-for-all

 

[ArmyMatt]

Not an exegesis of Eph 2:8-9. . .the text states how we are saved. . .which you deliberately omit. . .not a good look.

it does, but it doesn’t say faith alone. you are inserting that in the text. that is also not the only Scripture that speaks of salvation, so to isolate that verse as some kind of trump card is foolish.

I am deliberately omitting what you erroneously insert.

 

[Clare73]

I already did in post 33. however, it’s pretty foolish to try to exegete some verses apart from following ones.

Not an exegesis of Eph 2:8-9. . .just a dodge.

The text states how we are saved. . .which you deliberately omit. . .not a good look for you.

 

[Clare73]

it does, but it doesn’t say faith alone.

It falls to you to demonstrate your assertion that faith is not alone (without works) in salvation.

 

[public hermit]

correct, but also not faith ALONE.


correct, so not faith ALONE.

Is it the Orthodox position that faith entails works? So, in that sense, it can never be "faith alone" or mere faith?

 

[Lukaris]

Is it the Orthodox position that faith entails works? So, in that sense, it can never be "faith alone" or mere faith?

I believe for us Philippians 2:11-13 explains much of living by faith for us. This would be significant within what St. Paul says in Romans 1:17. Acts 26:19-20, Colossians 1:10-23 also.

 

[Clare73]

Is it the Orthodox position that faith entails works? So, in that sense, it can never be "faith alone" or mere faith?

Faith entails works, and without them it is counterfeit faith.

But it is not the necessary works of that faith which save, it is only the faith itself which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[public hermit]

I believe for us Philippians 2:11-13 explains much of living by faith for us. This would be significant within what St. Paul says in Romans 1:17. Acts 26:19-20, Colossians 1:10-23 also.

Maybe it's not sufficient to say faith entails good works. Is it more the idea that faith *just is* doing good works?

 

[public hermit]

Faith entails works, and without them it is counterfeit faith.

But it is not the necessary works of that faith which save, it is only the faith itself which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

So how does your position disagree w/the Orthodox position? Maybe it's just a difference in understanding of "faith"?

 

[Clare73]

Maybe it's not sufficient to say faith entails good works. Is it more the idea that faith *just is* doing good works?

No, saving faith is belief in and trust on Jesus and his atoning work for the remission of one's sin, which remission is salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on sin.