Mariolatry?

[jas3]

Neither is claiming she did not. Scripture clearly states that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Scripture calls Mary the mother of James and Joses.

Helvidius made this same argument:

"13. The last proposition of Helvidius was this, and it is what he wished to show when he treated of the first-born, that brethren of the Lord are mentioned in the Gospels. For example... 'And coming into his own country he taught them in their synagogues, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence has this man this wisdom, and mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Judas?'... Helvidius utters a sharp note of warning and cries, 'The same names are repeated by the Evangelists in another place, and the same persons are there brethren of the Lord and sons of Mary.' Matthew says, 'And many women were there (doubtless at the Lord's cross) beholding from afar, which had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.'"

If you are interested, there is a thorough rebuttal of this argument that starts in chapter 15 of Against Helvidius. In summary, St. Jerome writes that Mary being given into the care of John indicates that she had no other children, and that Helvidius is being inconsistent if he demands explicit evidence from Scripture from his opponents while agreeing to things like Mary being a widow by the time of the Crucifixion. He also addresses various reasons why Mary the mother of James and Joses can't be Mary the mother of Jesus, and he also points out that it would be strange to identify Mary the mother of Jesus by reference to lesser-known sons.

The text is really worth reading in full.

 

[Grip Docility]

Read Matt the lineage of Jesus was through both Joseph and Mary.

I don’t focus on extra biblical writings and this is the crux of our differences.

Notice we are in a circular pattern here?

My points are clearly stated have a great day. Where there is no meeting of the minds even to what is used as a measure of authority, there can be no mutual correlation nor agreement

Love you guys! Stay close to God.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Hislegacy, brother in Him.

I would only say that peace and Love should be the goal. Agreeing to Lovingly disagree is possible on this topic.

The entire invisible Body would be wise to reconcile in ways that bring peace and mutual respect, in the Love of Jesus. IMO

 

[d taylor]

-
​

The reason Jesus gave Mary over to John as mother and son. Was because at the time of Jesus death on the cross and resurrection. Jesus' half brothers (Joseph, James, Jude, and Simon) were not believers.

 

[Grip Docility]

-
​

The reason Jesus gave Mary over to John as mother and son. Was because at the time of Jesus death on the cross and resurrection. Jesus' half brothers (Joseph, James, Jude, and Simon) were not believers.

My brother,

I never received your forgiveness. I know that this doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but to me, it matters. I only ask, one more time, will you forgive me for offending you earlier? I most definitely apologize sincerely from my heart. If not, I understand, but I did not express this lightly.

Whatever the case, all love to you in the precious name of Jesus Christ, my Brother in Jesus.

 

[d taylor]

My brother,

I never received your forgiveness. I know that this doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but to me, it matters. I only ask, one more time, will you forgive me for offending you earlier? I most definitely apologize sincerely from my heart. If not, I understand, but I did not express this lightly.

Whatever the case, all love to you in the precious name of Jesus Christ, my Brother in Jesus.

-
​

231 234 235 236 237 238

Ok i have linked all the post and you say you corrected your statement about saying i believe or have written something i did not write. But i do not see where any of you post were corrected.

You quoted a post of mine and wrote
By saying that "So Jesus' divine and human nature were not brought to a union in Mary's womb." a person would literally be saying that Jesus was a mere Man and nothing more. They would also be denying that The Word which was God, has always been God and was With God became Flesh.

But no where did i ever say this. I actually wrote this in reply to poster George95

So you do not believe in Mary's womb the two natures were combined by God, so God could bring forth the God-man to humanity.

I was asking George95 does he not believe that the two natures were combined by God in Mary's womb.

So you say you apologize in post 237 and have fixed the reply. But i do not see this post 235 fixed as it is written like the above italicized words from your post.

So i do not know what you corrected and what you are apologizing for.

This will be the last time i bring this up as i have moved on. Like i stated i am not offended by people opinions about me on this site

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Neither is claiming she did not. Scripture clearly states that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Scripture calls Mary the mother of James and Joses.

The same exegesis negates the perpetual virgin teaching.

Those acquainted with Jesus and his blessed mother affirm her perpetual virginity, as the entire Church has consistently professed since its inception that Blessed Mary remained ever virgin.

 

[Grip Docility]

-
​

231 234 235 236 237 238

Ok i have linked all the post and you say you corrected your statement about saying i believe or have written something i did not write. But i do not see where any of you post were corrected.

You quoted a post of mine and wrote
By saying that "So Jesus' divine and human nature were not brought to a union in Mary's womb." a person would literally be saying that Jesus was a mere Man and nothing more. They would also be denying that The Word which was God, has always been God and was With God became Flesh.

But no where did i ever say this. I actually wrote this in reply to poster George95

So you do not believe in Mary's womb the two natures were combined by God, so God could bring forth the God-man to humanity.

I was asking George95 does he not believe that the two natures were combined by God in Mary's womb.

So you say you apologize in post 237 and have fixed the reply. But i do not see this post 235 fixed as it is written like the above italicized words from your post.

So i do not know what you corrected and what you are apologizing for.

This will be the last time i bring this up as i have moved on. Like i stated i am not offended by people opinions about me on this site

I had depersonalized the post to simply respond to the inference through questioning.

You quoted its original content, which personalized the post.

I don’t desire to be dishonest and abrogate the response further, but it’s wording is depersonalized.

I will take your inference that you were not offended to mean that forgiveness and apology isn’t required.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Brother in Jesus

 

[Guojing]

Is it not necessary for your claim to require "scripture," since you assert that the Blessed Virgin Mary had several children? Would not Occam's razor suggest that your claim, being the more complex, is therefore the less likely?

By Occam's razor, which is less complex?

Joseph and Mary had sexual relations after Christ was born (Matthew 1)

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

There is clear scripture there with the words consummate and until.

Vs

Mary remained a virgin all her life, which forces one to come up with all kinds of ad hoc explanations about the other brothers and sisters of Jesus Matthew 13:56 Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31

If you really understood Occam's Razor, is not the choice obvious?

 

[Guojing]

I believe that Mary did not give birth to any other son, other than her firstborn and only begotten son, Jesus. Your question is good and let's apply it strictly in this sense. If Mary and Joseph always ran away, who did they leave their other supposed children with?

That is what I was asking him, Joseph could not possibly have other children before Mary. Otherwise, it does not make sense that Joseph would abandon his children when the three of them fled to Egypt in Matthew 1.

Are you supporting my point? You agreed with me that "Joseph could not possibly have other children before Mary"?

 

[ARBITER01]

By Occam's razor, which is less complex?

Joseph and Mary had sexual relations after Christ was born (Matthew 1)

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

There is clear scripture there with the words consummate and until.

Vs

Mary remained a virgin all her life, which forces one to come up with all kinds of ad hoc explanations about the other brothers and sisters of Jesus Matthew 13:56 Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31

If you really understood Occam's Razor, is not the choice obvious?

Very well said.

This is why we adhere to scripture accounts, not church teachings or traditions. It is scripture that is GOD breathed, not church teachings.

 

[Valletta]

So Catholics believed that Mary was Joseph's 2nd wife? I suppose there is no biblical scripture for that?

James may simply have been a cousin. There is no Catholic teaching on the subject.

 

[Valletta]

By Occam's razor, which is less complex?

Joseph and Mary had sexual relations after Christ was born (Matthew 1)

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

There is clear scripture there with the words consummate and until.

Yours is a clear misinterpretation of Holy Scripture. An understanding of Koine Greek would avoid your error.

 

[Guojing]

Yours is a clear misinterpretation of Holy Scripture. An understanding of Koine Greek would avoid your error.

You should at least offer your own interpretation of that Matthew passage then.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

By Occam's razor, which is less complex?

Joseph and Mary had sexual relations after Christ was born (Matthew 1)

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

There is clear scripture there with the words consummate and until.

Vs

Mary remained a virgin all her life, which forces one to come up with all kinds of ad hoc explanations about the other brothers and sisters of Jesus Matthew 13:56 Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31

If you really understood Occam's Razor, is not the choice obvious?

Matthew 1: 20 But hardly had this thought come to his mind, when an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, and said, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take thy wife Mary to thyself, for it is by the power of the Holy Ghost that she has conceived this child;
21 and she will bear a son, whom thou shalt call Jesus, for he is to save his people from their sins.
22 All this was so ordained to fulfil the word which the Lord spoke by his prophet:
23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a son, and they shall call him Emmanuel (which means, God with us).✻

[Is. 7.14. ‘The virgin’ is a literal translation of the Hebrew; ‘a virgin’ would equally express the sense of the original prophecy.]​

24 And Joseph awoke from sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, taking his wife to himself;
25 and he had not known her when she bore a son, her first-born, to whom he gave the name Jesus.✻

[The text here is more literally rendered ‘he knew her not till she bore a son’; but the Hebrew word represented by ‘till’ does not imply that the event which might have been expected did take place afterwards. (Cf. Gen. 8.7, Ps. 109.2, Dan. 6.24, I Mac. 5.54.) So that this phrase does not impugn the perpetual virginity of our Lady. Nor is any such inference to be drawn when our Lord is called her ‘first-born’ Son, which refers to his position as redeemable under the old law (Lk. 2.23).]​

Occam's razor, while a useful human invention, should not cause undue concern. The complexity arises from the claim that Joseph and Mary had sexual relations multiple times and that Mary bore several children by Joseph. However, there is no scriptural basis for this claim. Conversely, I require no additional scripture to affirm what is explicitly stated in the holy scriptures: that Blessed Mary is a virgin, as declared in Matthew 1:23. There is no need for me to add or assume anything to uphold the virginity of Blessed Mary.

 

[Guojing]

Matthew 1: 20 But hardly had this thought come to his mind, when an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, and said, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take thy wife Mary to thyself, for it is by the power of the Holy Ghost that she has conceived this child;
21 and she will bear a son, whom thou shalt call Jesus, for he is to save his people from their sins.
22 All this was so ordained to fulfil the word which the Lord spoke by his prophet:
23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a son, and they shall call him Emmanuel (which means, God with us).✻

[Is. 7.14. ‘The virgin’ is a literal translation of the Hebrew; ‘a virgin’ would equally express the sense of the original prophecy.]​

24 And Joseph awoke from sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, taking his wife to himself;
25 and he had not known her when she bore a son, her first-born, to whom he gave the name Jesus.✻

[The text here is more literally rendered ‘he knew her not till she bore a son’; but the Hebrew word represented by ‘till’ does not imply that the event which might have been expected did take place afterwards. (Cf. Gen. 8.7, Ps. 109.2, Dan. 6.24, I Mac. 5.54.) So that this phrase does not impugn the perpetual virginity of our Lady. Nor is any such inference to be drawn when our Lord is called her ‘first-born’ Son, which refers to his position as redeemable under the old law (Lk. 2.23).]​

Occam's razor, while a useful human invention, should not cause undue concern. The complexity arises from the claim that Joseph and Mary had sexual relations multiple times and that Mary bore several children by Joseph. However, there is no scriptural basis for this claim. Conversely, I require no additional scripture to affirm what is explicitly stated in the holy scriptures: that Blessed Mary is a virgin, as declared in Matthew 1:23. There is no need for me to add or assume anything to uphold the virginity of Blessed Mary.

I have provided many more scripture passages about the brothers and sisters of Jesus.

Are you going to simply say they could ALL be cousins?

 

[jas3]

You should at least offer your own interpretation of that Matthew passage then.

This is addressed in chapters 3-10 of Against Helvidius, linked above. If you want a Protestant source, there is Martin Luther's That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew.

 

[Valletta]

You should at least offer your own interpretation of that Matthew passage then.

The Greek word (heōs) translated into "until" or "til" or "onto" or other English words, says nothing about what happens afterwards.
Samuel 6:23 "Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death" does not mean Michal had children after she died.

 

[Valletta]

I have provided many more scripture passages about the brothers and sisters of Jesus.

Are you going to simply say they could ALL be cousins?

Of course, the Greek word indeed includes cousins.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have provided many more scripture passages about the brothers and sisters of Jesus.

Are you going to simply say they could ALL be cousins?

Yes, why not?

 

[Guojing]

Yes, why not?

So to summarize our discussion so far

1. There is zero scripture reference that Mary remained a virgin all her life after the birth of Jesus
2. But there are many scripture references to Mary having other children and having consummate her marriage with Joseph.

Yet, its simpler to just believe that Mary was the eternal virgin.

Alright then.