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Lukaris

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People, yes. Apostles... No.
At least not for hundreds of years, much less one.

If you are telling me that we should expect those in the hierarchy to murder their neighbor, does that not destroy the arguments of all Catholics who are against the OP?
Are you saying that Christ's leadership can be corrupted, or only a couple of them in an entire order?

Inquisitions
The Inquisition was a powerful office set up within the Catholic Church to root out and punish heresy throughout Europe and the Americas. Beginning in the 12th century and continuing for hundreds of years, the Inquisition is infamous for the severity of its tortures and its persecution of Jews and Muslims. Its worst manifestation was in Spain, where the Spanish Inquisition was a dominant force for more than 200 years, resulting in some 32,000 executions.

Catharists​

The Inquisition has its origins in the early organized persecution of non-Catholic Christian religions in Europe. In 1184 Pope Lucius III sent bishops to southern France to track down heretics called Catharists. These efforts continued into the 14th Century.

During the same period, the church also pursued the Waldensians in Germany and Northern Italy. In 1231, Pope Gregory charged the Dominican and Franciscan Orders to take over the job of tracking down heretics.
I am talking about sinful human nature in general ( Romans 3:23) at its worst when murder is committed by any individual. It is the absolute worst if an individual claims to be Christian. This has nothing to do with any particular confession of Christianity.
 
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CoreyD

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Strawman. The Scriptures say that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. Furthermore, they stress that apostasy will happen in the end times. If a Great Apostasy had already happened, and then reversed, Matthew 16:18 would be demonstrably false.
This is what you say.
You keep repeating it, rather than provide any scripture.
So I am not sure what strawman you are referring to, except It be the one you keep putting up, as though Matthew 16:18 supports anything you say.
What do you imagine it supports?

Jesus is the foundation cornerstone. Not Peter.
It is on Jesus the Church is built. Not Peter.
Isaiah 28:16, 17; Psalm 118:22; Matthew 21:42; Acts 4:11; 1 Corinthians 3:11
All the apostles are the foundation. Not Peter, alone. Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-9; Revelation 21:14
Do you really deny this?

I'm really sorry you believed what they told you, instead of believing these scriptures.
I hope you consider them now, and they help you see the error. :(

So why then did you get on the case of an Eastern Orthodox member for the Roman Catholic Church instituting the Auto da Fe? Are you unaware of the fact that the Roman Catholics martyred Eastern Orthodox Christians such as St. Peter the Aleut?
We can make mistakes. I don't propose to be perfect.
So, you are not Roman Catholic either.
Ah. I had you all lumped into one. :grin:
I'm sorry. :sorry:

The Waldensians appeared only a few hundred years before the Reformation, but importantly, they appeared in the Western Church, which was already in schism from the Orthodox and which had embraced a number of doctrines which the early church did not teach, including Papal Supremacy, Purgatory, Indulgences, Satisfaction Atonement and indeed practically the entire program of Scholastic Theology, which was a needless reinvention of the wheel.

There is an idea propagated by Landmark Baptists and by Seventh Day Adventists that believes that certain groups such as the Cathars and Paulicans were somehow proto-Protestants, when we have their actual scriptures and know from their own writings that they subscribed to doctrines inherited from Manichaeanism, Valentinism and other related heresies, embracing a Dualist view in which matter was evil and salvation was through secret knowledge, and were not Christians, but rather Docetists who rejected the Nicene Creed and the humanity of Jesus Christ, as well as the doctrine of the Trinity, in favor of a more complex system of emanationism.
I'm just asking about Waldenses.
They believed the Godhead of the Trinity.
Were they Christians?
 
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CoreyD

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I am talking about sinful human nature in general ( Romans 3:23) at its worst when murder is committed by any individual. It is the absolute worst if an individual claims to be Christian. This has nothing to do with any particular confession of Christianity.
I'm talking about an entire hierarchy of persons in "authority in Christ's Church".
This has nothing to do with human nature, but has everything to do with what Jesus said. Matthew 7::15-20
I won't repeat the scriptures I referenced before, since we do not seem to be having a conversation about the same thing.

Take care.
 
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CoreyD

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Agree.
An observation; those who don't understand basic Chuch history often miss the mark in other areas concerning The Church and Christianity as well.
What basic Church history are you referring to?
I simply thought all you were Roman Catholic.
It has nothing to do with not knowing basic Church history.
This is the 21st century. Not the Dark Ages.

If I took your position, I would say, when a person does not know how to spell Church, you know they basically know nothing. :D ...but I know better... LOL
 
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FenderTL5

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What basic Church history are you referring to?
I simply thought all you were Roman Catholic.
Answering your own questions?
You're still making that same assumption (see here).
 
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FenderTL5

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I don't see it.
I'm well aware and that's exactly what I meant.

Why would you say this (quote follows) to someone who is Orthodox?
Jesus is the foundation cornerstone. Not Peter.
It is on Jesus the Church is built. Not Peter.
Isaiah 28:16, 17; Psalm 118:22; Matthew 21:42; Acts 4:11; 1 Corinthians 3:11
All the apostles are the foundation. Not Peter, alone. Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-9; Revelation 21:14
Do you really deny this?

I'm really sorry you believed what they told you, instead of believing these scriptures.
I hope you consider them now, and they help you see the error. :(
 
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CoreyD

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I'm well aware and that's exactly what I meant.

Why would you say this (quote follows) to someone who is Orthodox?
I said that in response to this.
If a Great Apostasy had already happened, and then reversed, Matthew 16:18 would be demonstrably false.
Perhaps you should ask them why they said that, and referenced Matthew 16:18, twice.
If you know why, then please go ahead and tell me.
 
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CoreyD

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@FenderTL5 did you ask?
I don't believe @The Liturgist will volunteer that information.
I have it, but I think this rule prohibits my posting a user's quotes.
However, I am familiar with what most religious people believe, and I know that whether Roman Catholic or not, some still believe that Peter was the rock Jesus said the Church is built on, and he was therefore, the first bishop in the line of bishops... of their order, of course.
 
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FenderTL5

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@FenderTL5 did you ask?
I don't believe @The Liturgist will volunteer that information.
Did I ask, what?
The Liturgist is usually very generous in sharing his knowledge of the Church and its history.
 
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FenderTL5

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Perhaps you lost track of the conversation. That's okay.
Perhaps.
What I perceive is that you are still lumping it all into one.

You said (to our friend The Liturgist),
Jesus is the foundation cornerstone. Not Peter.
It is on Jesus the Church is built. Not Peter.
Isaiah 28:16, 17; Psalm 118:22; Matthew 21:42; Acts 4:11; 1 Corinthians 3:11
All the apostles are the foundation. Not Peter, alone. Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-9; Revelation 21:14
Do you really deny this?

I'm really sorry you believed what they told you, instead of believing these scriptures.
I hope you consider them now, and they help you see the error. :(

Orthodoxy does not teach that Peter is the Cornerstone. So once again, by thinking all are Roman Catholic your accusation becomes misdirected.
 
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tall73

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What basic Church history are you referring to?
I simply thought all you were Roman Catholic.
You were interacting with a number of Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, who are not in communion with Rome. The basic church history referenced is the great schism between east and west.
 
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The Liturgist

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Perhaps.
What I perceive is that you are still lumping it all into one.

You said (to our friend The Liturgist),


Orthodoxy does not teach that Peter is the Cornerstone. So once again, by thinking all are Roman Catholic your accusation becomes misdirected.

Well, that point actually varies, but its not interpreted the way Rome interprets it. The reason why Rome, Alexandria and Antioch historically were first, second and third in the order of succession among Orthodox bishops is that these are the three Petrine sees - Antioch and Rome were where St. Peter was personally the bishop, and Alexandria is where St. Mark the Evangelist, who was his protege, was the bishop (and this ties in with the symbol of St. Mark being the winged lion). Likewise, Ephesus and the churches of Asia Minor, and indeed even Lyons, are associated with St. John the Theologian, because their bishops were in a line of succession from him (St. John to St. Ignatius to St. Polycarp of Smyrna to St. Irenaeus of Lyons) and St. Luke the Evangelist is regarded as the protege of St. Paul the Apostle. However, the main patriarchates were, after the destruction of Jerusalem in 130 AD, Rome, Alexandria and Antioch, and we see this reflected in Canon VI of the Council of Nicaea, which makes it clear that Alexandria and Antioch have the same autocephalous status and privileges as Rome, and then Canon VII grants these same privileges to the newly rebuilt city of Jerusalem, which was being restored by St. Helen the mother of St. Constantine, thus Jerusalem became next in the order of succession.

And then, not through an act of an ecumenical council but rather as a result of governmental action, Constantinople became equivalent in rank to Rome, because Constantinople is New Rome, and also has an association with St. Andrew the First Called. Thus, when Rome left the Orthodox communion in 1054, all privileges that attached to Old Rome, for example, under Canon 28 of Constantinople, were exclusively attached to New Rome, whereas it appears that prior to that point these responsibilities were shared on the basis of language and geography, with issues involving the Eastern, Greek speaking churches being handled in Constantinople and those involving the Western, Latin speaking churches being handled in Rome.

We see this pattern continue with the establishment of Moscow as the Third Rome, after the Grand Duke of Moscow married the highest ranking surviving princess from the Imperial family of Constantinople at the time the city fell to the Ottomans, and thus became the Romanov dynasty. Moscow became first in precedence among the Northern churches and the Slavonic-speaking churches, at least those outside of Ottoman territory, but really, the whole lot of them, and Constantinople remained first in precedence among the Greek and Arabic speaking churches of the Mediterranean, with Romania and Georgia being somewhere in between the two.

Likewise the Oriental Orthodox also regard St. Peter as particularly important, however, they do not even have a former order of precedence among their sees.

It must be stressed however that the Orthodox have never regarded Matthew 16 as conveying upon St. Peter any command authority over the other Apostles, but rather a status as servant leader and coordinator; this is reflected by the fact that he did not preside over the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, since Jerusalem was under the apostolate of St. James the Just. But rather we see St. Peter playing a key role in certain events, such as in the Gospel of John when he jumps in the water to swim out to our Risen God and Savior Jesus Christ on the shores of the See of Galilee after recognizing him, in a beautiful moment, and also the visionary dream he had about shellfish being acceptable food, and so on, and this dream gave him the impetus to support the initiative of St. Paul to receive gentiles without converting them to Judaism and to declare adherence to the Torah as not required for the practice of Christianity.

But the Roman Church later leaned too far into these pericopes in order to justify Papal Supremacy, partially in reaction to Charlemagne and his successors basically dominating the Roman Church for a time, so that by the time that phase of the Holy Roman Empire came to an end, the subsequent Popes wanted to make sure that the Emperors would be at their service, and not vice versa. This is to some extent understandable, but where it became abusive was in terms of increasingly belligerent conduct towards the Eastern churches, which were also seen, by virtue of their autocephalous status, as a threat to Papal Supremacy, which obviously they were, since under the canons of the Council of Nicaea, the Roman Pope has no power over them. Indeed the fact that Papal participation in the ecumenical councils consisted mainly of sending a couple of legates to each council, the one exception being Chalcedon, really indicates what the actual status of the Roman church was throughout most of the Patristic period - an extremely conservative church, even compared to other Latin-speaking Western churches such as those of North Africa, Gaul and Hispania, which was to a large extent isolated from the very dynamic situation in the Greek and Syrian churches where most of the theological controversies would be settled.
 
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The Liturgist

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@FenderTL5 did you ask?
I don't believe @The Liturgist will volunteer that information.
I have it, but I think this rule prohibits my posting a user's quotes.
However, I am familiar with what most religious people believe, and I know that whether Roman Catholic or not, some still believe that Peter was the rock Jesus said the Church is built on, and he was therefore, the first bishop in the line of bishops... of their order, of course.

What is your question?

It’s not calling me out if you ask me a question where you sincerely are interested in my opinion or historical knowledge of a subject, as far as I am aware.

Rather, my understanding is that a call out would be if I tagged someone and challenged them over a remark they had made in, say, another thread, in a manner that was belligerent and so on, but of course if you have concerns about what it is you should ask the mods.

But I don’t feel called out here, so if you are curious as to what I think, or if @FenderTL5 is curious as to what I think, feel free to ask.
 
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The Liturgist

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What basic Church history are you referring to?
I simply thought all you were Roman Catholic.
It has nothing to do with not knowing basic Church history.
This is the 21st century. Not the Dark Ages.

The Orthodox are not Roman Catholic and the Dark Ages didn’t even happen to those areas of the world where the Orthodox church was predominant.

The Dark Ages specifically refers to the condition in Western Europe after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the fifth century, leading up to the collapse of the civil government of Rome in 600 AD, which left St. Gregory Diologos, who is a Roman Catholic who is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox, actually one of the last Roman Catholics to be venerated by the Eastern Orthodox before the schism, as the only high ranking public official left, and thus he was forced to negotiate with the Ostrogothic rulers who had conquered the city on behalf of the people of Rome to save as many lives as possible. Things were very grim. Then Charlemagne came along, and then the Medieval period and so on.

Meanwhile, the Eastern Roman Empire remained relatively stable, and a center of learning and cultural sophistication, and it continued to spread the Christian religion aggressively (and during this time the Western church did what it could as well, for example, converting the Angles, a tribe from an area which is now part of Denmark, who had conquered Britannia - indeed, all three Danish ethnic groups would wind up conquering England, along with the Saxons of Germany, in that the Angles were followed by the Jutes from Jutland, then the Saxons and then the Danish Vikings, who established the Danelaw ruled from Jarvik, which later became known as York, a beautiful town which I have visited, and home to the National Railway Museum in the UK as well as the splendid Yorkminster Cathedral (actually I visited York on one day in 2002, and the next day visited Brighton in the morning and Canterbury in the evening). But while that was going on in the West, the Eastern churches spread the faith throughout Eastern Europe, and to Eastern Scandinavia, and to the Southern Slavs and Bulgarians and finally the Northern Slavic people, the Kievan Rus, who are the ancestors of the Russians and Ukrainians (which is why i am so distressed by that war; its really more like the US Civil War than anything else).

The Byzantine civilization was glorious and impressive, and after losing some territories to the Ummayid Caliphate, managed to repel them using science, in the form of Greek Fire, a pyrophoric chemical weapon which could start fires on enemy ships which could not be extinguished, using flamethrowers, and which was also devastating against troops, and in this manner, and by forming alliances with the Kingdom of Armenia and the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, the Byzantine Empire was able to hold out until 1453, and a small part of it, Trebizond, on the Black Sea, was able to hold out even longer.

The Eastern Churches were never subordinate to the Pope of Rome, and indeed in many cases the reverse actually happened. For example, Pope Honorius I was censured post mortem by the Sixth Ecumenical Synod for supporting the heresy of Monothelitism. He is the only Bishop of Rome who was ever convicted of heresy by an ecumenical council.

Some Orthodox churches have been out of communion with Rome since the Council of Chalcedon in 451 (namely the Oriental Orthodox, that is to say, the Copts (Egyptians), Syriac Orthodox (Historically speakers of Aramaic dialects who live in Syria, Iraq, Turkey, the Holy Land and especially India, where they are known as St. Thomas Christians because the Gospel was first brought there by St .Thomas the Apostle, who was martyred by an enraged maharaja who threw a javelin at him). The rest broke off communion with Rome in the eleventh century.

Then when the Crusades happened, these had a devastating effect on the Orthodox Christians, indeed, in the First Crusade, the Crusaders even engaged in cannibalism of the local Christians when their supplies ran low.

So indeed, the Orthodox are not Roman Catholics, we disagree with them on many issues of theology, and it is very offensive to us to be grouped together with them.

Also, by the way, the period of time while Western Europe was in the so-called Dark Ages is still quite interesting, although not as interesting as what was going on in the Byzantine Empire at the same time, which was indeed very much in its prime, to the extent that during the Dark Ages, the Byzantine Empire actually occupied some portions of the former Western Roman Empire in order to reduce the suffering of the people, who were suffering the depradations of various Gothic tribes that had been converted to Arianism, which is the anti-Christian religion that originated with the heretic Arius in the early fourth century, and indeed, it was the cause for convening the Council of Nicaea, to ratify the decision of the Church of Alexandria to depose Arius.

However, Emperor Constantine’s son Constantius was converted to Arianism through the sinister machinations of Eusebius of Nicomedia, an Arian bishop who did not attend Nicaea but rather lurked in the shadows and climbed the power structures in Constantinople, and the result of this was an almost continual persecution of Christians by the Arian emperors from the death of St. Constantine until the death of Emperor Valens, who was the last of the Arian Emperors, at which time St. Theodosius became Emperor, around 379 AD, and the Second Ecumenical Synod was convened in Constantinople to address additional theological issues that had come up, such as Pneumaatomacchianism - denial of the deity and the distinct personhood of the Holy Spirit as a member of the Trinity.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm just asking about Waldenses.
They believed the Godhead of the Trinity.
Were they Christians?

Well, they are Christians today, and from what I have been able to ascertain about them from before the Restoration, I think they were Christians.

However, the group to focus on is really the Moravians, the Czech reformers, who were the first Protestants, led by St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, and who are the only Protestants who are venerated as martyrs by the Eastern Orthodox, specifically by the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia.

What Saints Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague were trying to do was restore to the Czech people what they had when they were Orthodox Christians, before they were forcibly converted to Roman Catholicism when they were conquered by the Austrians in the 13th century. Namely, the Orthodox celebrated the church services in a language the people could understand* and communion in both kinds, that is to say, the body and blood of our Lord. The Roman church had ceased to distribute the blood of our Lord among the laity shortly before a Papal Legate severed relations with the Patriarch of Constantinople in 1054, after trying increasingly strange and unusual approaches to distributing it, such as the use of straws and so on. So for many centuries, except in the Eastern Catholic churches, which were created in order to place the Orthodox Christians of Lithuania and Western Ukraine under the control of the Pope as part of the formation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, an event which postdated the Austrian annexation of the Czech Republic, the laity were generally unable to partake of the consecrated wine which became the very Blood of our Lord in the Orthodox divine liturgy.

Now, the Austrians managed to have Saints Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague burned at the stake, but their movement survived, and their descendants comprise the modern day Moravian church, also known as the Unitas Fratrum, although unfortunately its theology was radically altered under the influence of the Pietist German Count von Zinzendorf, who had some unusual ideas and a fascination with the wounds inflicted on our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ which comes across as morbid and excessive (some people criticize the Roman Catholics for this, but Count Zinzendorf went way beyond this, while also stressing Pietism, which is a somewhat problematic theological idea which appeared in Scandinavia and the Eastern extremities of the German speaking lands in the 18th century, with the Eastern Germanic form being a bit more problematic, due to its deprecation of the importance of correct doctrine in favor of an emphasis on a personal experience. We also see Pietism in denominations of Scandinavian origin like the historically Swedish Evangelical Free Church.

*Church Slavonic, which was designed for pan-Slavic mutual intelligibility; English is a bit of an odd case in that our language is not really mutually intelligible with any others, but even today, Swedish, Norwegian and Danish are mutually intelligible, and so Church Slavonic would be a bit like if someone created a pan-Scandinavian language designed to make it easier for Swedes, Norwegians and Danes to understand each other - it was developed by Saints Cyril and Methodius and was instrumental in the conversion of the Serbians, the Bulgarians, the Kieven Rus, and later, the Poles and Czechs).
 
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Valletta

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Jesus is the foundation cornerstone. Not Peter.
It is on Jesus the Church is built. Not Peter.
Isaiah 28:16, 17; Psalm 118:22; Matthew 21:42; Acts 4:11; 1 Corinthians 3:11
All the apostles are the foundation. Not Peter, alone. Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-9; Revelation 21:14
Do you really deny this?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it well:
756 "Often, too, the Church is called the building of God. The Lord compared himself to the stone which the builders rejected, but which was made into the corner-stone. On this foundation the Church is built by the apostles and from it the Church receives solidity and unity. This edifice has many names to describe it: the house of God in which his family dwells; the household of God in the Spirit; the dwelling-place of God among men; and, especially, the holy temple. This temple, symbolized in places of worship built out of stone, is praised by the Fathers and, not without reason, is compared in the liturgy to the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. As living stones we here on earth are built into it. It is this holy city that is seen by John as it comes down out of heaven from God when the world is made anew, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.148
 
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CoreyD

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Perhaps.
What I perceive is that you are still lumping it all into one.

You said (to our friend The Liturgist),


Orthodoxy does not teach that Peter is the Cornerstone. So once again, by thinking all are Roman Catholic your accusation becomes misdirected.
Not only have you lost track of the conversation.
You seem to be trying to hang on to something that is not factual.
Why?
 
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CoreyD

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You were interacting with a number of Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, who are not in communion with Rome. The basic church history referenced is the great schism between east and west.
Yes, but it did not matter who I was interacting with.
The difference only became a factor, when I responded to this comment.

It is not disproven simply because you say so, and I'll take the understanding of the Church over an internet contrarian every time. ymmv​

With the mistaken view that I was communicating with Catholics.
I was mistaken, but the thread isn't about Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, or Catholics.
I was simply making a point.
If the point does not apply to "the number of Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox", they do not have to dwell on it.

Unless they feel they are party to it.
 
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