The Didache: Proof of Deviation From Christ's Teachings by Apostolic Fathers

[BNR32FAN]

Dude the Chruch Fathers were taught by the Apostles.

There has always been heretics in the church from the very beginning but never the entire church.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is true Daniel.
So were these - 2 Corinthians 11:12, 13; Acts 20:30; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:3, 4; 2 Peter 2:1
Do you see what I am saying, Daniel.
I know you mean well buddy, but let me ask you this:
Why are you eager to accept teachings that deviated... they clearly are different from what Jesus and his apostles left us in the NT?

If I said something different from what is written in scripture, you'd have my head, wouldn't you?
In fact, every Catholic posting in this thread would be at my throat, telling me how I am teaching heresy.
Why do you think they are so eager to accept... mind you... 1) an anonymous document, that 2) came after the apostles were all gone, and 3) implements changes from the writings, which God said were complete, though a faithful apostle - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work?

I'll like to hear from you... not in behalf of anyone, but speak for yourself Daniel. Why?

Well for one thing the doctrine of the Trinity wasn’t even clearly understood or established in the church until Nicene which was over 300 years after Christ’s ascension.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you were familiar with the Fathers you might know that they were vigilant against heresies. This thread presumes the Fathers were from the beginning all heretics. All of them. But it’s done with a real deficit of information about them. The Fathers were heretic hunters, and Ignatius of Lyon was one of the prime examples. I wonder what he would say about the theology of the one here claiming the Fathers were all heretics?

Yeah I find it hard to believe that martyrs would submit to preaching a different gospel than what they were taught by the apostles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Chapter One
Why did they not just say, the Lord commanded us to love God, and neighbor, and gave us the Golden Rule?
Why are they making it about them... as though they are trying to validate their authority?

They’re not making it about them in the portion you quoted. It’s simply saying do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Perhaps you didn’t quote the portion you were referring to?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Could you imagine one of the twelve saying 'You should nor kill"? Really?
Exodus 20:13 Interlinear: 'Thou dost not murder.

Is it translated from the Greek word phoneuō G5407? Because it can mean either kill or murder. It’s translated both ways in the NT. Matthew 19:18

 

[chevyontheriver]

There has always been heretics in the church from the very beginning but never the entire church.

The ‘almost’ time was the Arian heresy. But the Alexandrian grandchildren of the grandchildren taught by St. Mark knew better than to follow that junk and went out into the desert to be with St. Anthony and the Desert Fathers who still knew the truth. They hiked miles to have the liturgy with Orthodox monks instead of listening to some Arian poser in the city of Alexandria. The ‘Sensus Fidelium’ prevailed.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The ‘almost’ time was the Arian heresy. But the Alexandrian grandchildren of the grandchildren taught by St. Mark knew better than to follow that junk and went out into the desert to be with St. Anthony and the Desert Fathers who still knew the truth. They hiked miles to have the liturgy with Orthodox monks instead of listening to some Arian poser in the city of Alexandria. The ‘Sensus Fidelium’ prevailed.

Yeah from what I understand almost half of the church fell into the Arianism heresy but we have evidence of an opposition to that heresy. Where’s the evidence of opposition to reformed theology? There wasn’t any because it’s wasn’t invented for over a thousand years later.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The ‘almost’ time was the Arian heresy. But the Alexandrian grandchildren of the grandchildren taught by St. Mark knew better than to follow that junk and went out into the desert to be with St. Anthony and the Desert Fathers who still knew the truth. They hiked miles to have the liturgy with Orthodox monks instead of listening to some Arian poser in the city of Alexandria. The ‘Sensus Fidelium’ prevailed.

We may differ on the subject of creation but I’m glad to see that we do agree on more important matters. God bless my friend.

 

[CoreyD]

The scripture Timothy knew from his youth is the Tanakh, that is what Paul is referencing.

Timothy's mom, and grand-mom were Christians. 2 Timothy 1:5
They were Jewish, but was Timothy taught the Jewish teachings under the the old covenant?

Whether that is the case, or not, though it is highly unlikely, since Timothy was a young man, probably 17+, the teachings Paul refered to, are what we read here.
Acts 16:1-4
1 Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2 The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4 As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey.

Paul took Timothy under his wing, and trained him. Timothy was spoken well of in the congregation... which means he was listening to the teachings of the apostles.
So what Timothy learned from infancy, were the teachings instilled by Christians who were being taught by the apostles, and as Timothy grew in his teenage years, he matured spiritually, and became an elder under Paul's training.

Are you arguing that Christians don't need the new Testament?

I'm not mentally insane... yet.

• Timothy had access to Christian Greek scriptures.
• The Gospel of Matthew was available as early as about 40 C.E., so he had Jesus teachings.
• The teachings of the apostles were being heard, as early as 33 C.E. Acts 2:42
• These were put in writing, by letters. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
• As early as 50 C.E., many of Paul's letters were in circulation. 1 Corinthians 11:2
• There were already warnings being given against listening to teachings contrary to these letters. Galatians 1:8, 9

So, Timothy, a relatively young man in the faith, had access to

1. Matthew
2. Mark
3. Luke
4. Acts
5. Romans
6. 1 Corinthians
7. 2 Corinthians
8. Galatians
9. Ephesians
10. Philippians
11. Colossians
12. 1 Thessalonians
13. 2 Thessalonians
14. 1 Timothy
15. 2 Timothy - now reading
16. Titus
17. Philemon
18. Hebrews
19. James
20. 1 Peter
21. 2 Peter

The only letters Timothy did not have access to, were John's.
It's possible he had access to Jude, at the time he receive Paul's second letter to him, since he could be reading this as late as 65 C.E.

When John wrote his letters, he said this:
1 John 4:6

We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception.

1 John 2:26

I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

In his revelation, John concluded his book this way:
Revelation 22:18, 19
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

It looks complete to me.
What do you think?

Here is a question for you.
Why don't you accept the book of Mormon as additional directions from the Lord, that Christians need?

 

[CoreyD]

The question seems obvious to me, can you provide any evidence of your theology existing before the 16th century other than the scriptures?

First. I'm sorry, but your question is confusing. "your theology existing before the 16th century other than the scriptures?"
Second. It seems I am the only one who don't know that I have "my understanding of Jesus' teachings"; "my interpretation of scripture"; "my theology".
What's my theology, and what does that have to do with the Didache?

Is it translated from the Greek word phoneuō G5407? Because it can mean either kill or murder. It’s translated both ways in the NT. Matthew 19:18

Both the Jews and Jesus' apostles knew the difference between kill and murder, and they knew that God's command was, "You must not murder." Not "You must not kill".
Which means the Didache used an existing copy of text that was not from the Hebrew or Greek scriptures.

 

[CoreyD]

There has always been heretics in the church from the very beginning but never the entire church.

Please explain 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12. Thanks.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Both the Jews and Jesus' apostles knew the difference between kill and murder, and they knew that God's command was, "You must not murder." Not "You must not kill".
Which means the Didache used an existing copy of text that was not from the Hebrew or Greek scriptures.

The Didache is written in Greek not English. What Greek word was used that was translated to “kill”? If it was translated from the Greek word phoneuō then it should’ve been translated to English as murder since that is how it is translated in Matthew 19:18. So you can’t put a mistake in the translation to English on the author who wrote it in Greek.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The Didache is written in Greek not English. What Greek word was used that was translated to “kill”? If it was translated from the Greek word phoneuō then it should’ve been translated to English as murder since that is how it is translated in Matthew 19:18. So you can’t put a mistake in the translation to English on the author who wrote it in Greek.

2. οὐ φονεύσεις,

The Twelve Apostles-Didache

 

[CoreyD]

The Didache is written in Greek not English. What Greek word was used that was translated to “kill”? If it was translated from the Greek word phoneuō then it should’ve been translated to English as murder since that is how it is translated in Matthew 19:18. So you can’t put a mistake in the translation to English on the author who wrote it in Greek.

οὐ φονεύσεις ( ou phoneuseis) - Thou shalt not kill / Thou shalt not murder

Didache Translation — Chapter 2

Okay. I see what you mean. Thanks.

 

[CoreyD]

2. οὐ φονεύσεις,

The Twelve Apostles-Didache

The Greek to English translation gives me, 'Thou shall not kill', but when I do an English 'Though shall not murder' to Greek, it gives me the same Greek expression.
So, it's a matter of who translates, evidently.

 

[concretecamper]

Timothy's mom, and grand-mom were Christians. 2 Timothy 1:5
They were Jewish, but was Timothy taught the Jewish teachings under the the old covenant?

Whether that is the case, or not, though it is highly unlikely, since Timothy was a young man, probably 17+, the teachings Paul refered to, are what we read here.
Acts 16:1-4
1 Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2 The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4 As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey.

Paul took Timothy under his wing, and trained him. Timothy was spoken well of in the congregation... which means he was listening to the teachings of the apostles.
So what Timothy learned from infancy, were the teachings instilled by Christians who were being taught by the apostles, and as Timothy grew in his teenage years, he matured spiritually, and became an elder under Paul's training.


I'm not mentally insane... yet.

• Timothy had access to Christian Greek scriptures.
• The Gospel of Matthew was available as early as about 40 C.E., so he had Jesus teachings.
• The teachings of the apostles were being heard, as early as 33 C.E. Acts 2:42
• These were put in writing, by letters. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
• As early as 50 C.E., many of Paul's letters were in circulation. 1 Corinthians 11:2
• There were already warnings being given against listening to teachings contrary to these letters. Galatians 1:8, 9

So, Timothy, a relatively young man in the faith, had access to

1. Matthew
2. Mark
3. Luke
4. Acts
5. Romans
6. 1 Corinthians
7. 2 Corinthians
8. Galatians
9. Ephesians
10. Philippians
11. Colossians
12. 1 Thessalonians
13. 2 Thessalonians
14. 1 Timothy
15. 2 Timothy - now reading
16. Titus
17. Philemon
18. Hebrews
19. James
20. 1 Peter
21. 2 Peter

The only letters Timothy did not have access to, were John's.
It's possible he had access to Jude, at the time he receive Paul's second letter to him, since he could be reading this as late as 65 C.E.

When John wrote his letters, he said this:
1 John 4:6

1 John 2:26


In his revelation, John concluded his book this way:
Revelation 22:18, 19
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

It looks complete to me.
What do you think?

Here is a question for you.
Why don't you accept the book of Mormon as additional directions from the Lord, that Christians need?

You have to stay focused. Paul mentioned SCRIPTURE! None of the books of the NT books were regarded as scripture at the time Paul wrote 2 Tim. regardless of whether Timothy had access to all of them (which is a highly arguable fact and a bad assumption on your part)

 

[CoreyD]

You have to stay focused. Paul mentioned SCRIPTURE! None of the books of the NT books were regarded as scripture at the time Paul wrote 2 Tim. regardless of whether Timothy had access to all of them (which is a highly arguable fact and a bad assumption on your part)

I don't know where you got that.
Were you taught that, or is this your idea?

@concretecamper what are the scriptures these verses refer to?
1 Timothy 5:18, 19; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8; Romans 16:25-27

 

[BNR32FAN]

Please explain 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12. Thanks.

Paul is talking about the prophecy of the Antichrist. What’s your point? Do you think the Antichrist has been on earth since the first century of Christianity? Do we have one world government yet? He will also come during the tribulations which is only a 7 year span. If you’re implying that the antichrist came during the first century of Christianity then that would mean he’s had almost a 2,000 year reign already.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Greek to English translation gives me, 'Thou shall not kill', but when I do an English 'Though shall not murder' to Greek, it gives me the same Greek expression.
So, it's a matter of who translates, evidently.

Yes the word is translated as kill or murder in the NT brother.

 

[concretecamper]

I don't know where you got that.
Were you taught that, or is this your idea?

Simple math. Timothy is born around 17 AD. The scriptures he knew from his youth? You figure it out. Ugh