Mariolatry?

[Valletta]

You reject the rules of grammar, which require "context" for any word to be properly understood, including the word "all."

False. I don't reject rules of grammar. To the contrary, I've pointed out to you that the context is not about Mary. Your argument centers on the usage of the word "all." "All" either means every individual or it does not. You have admitted that Jesus was an exception. There are more exceptions, thus your avoidance of discussing what sins you think babies and severely handicapped individuals have committed.

 

[Jipsah]

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again for you now--Jesus is God!

And the BVM is His mother, ergo....

 

[George95]

So many people get fixated on the fact that Mary is called the Mother of God the Theotokos, and will then seem to forget He had two natures.

 

[jas3]

So many people get fixated on the fact that Mary is called the Mother of God the Theotokos, and will then seem to forget He had two natures.

If I'm not mistaken, the Oriental Orthodox, who would avoid using the expression "two natures" and would instead say "one incarnate nature," also call Mary the mother of God. The justification for the title is not the two natures of Christ, but the hypostatic union.

 

[George95]

If I'm not mistaken, the Oriental Orthodox, who would avoid using the expression "two natures" and would instead say "one incarnate nature," also call Mary the mother of God. The justification for the title is not the two natures of Christ, but the hypostatic union.

You do have the differences between them and EO.

 

[Joseph G]

Jesus is fully God begotten of His Spiritual Father. Jesus is fully human through his human mother (herself a created being, unlike her eternal Son).​

​

Mary is therefore NOT Jesus' eternal spiritual Mother from eternity past, and is certainly not pre-existent - as are the Holy Father, the Holy Spirit, The Holy Son (truly immaculate Himself).​

Immaculate, sinless Mother of God? No.
mother of God IN THE FLESH? Yes.

Did Jesus inherit Mary's sinful nature therefore? Absolutely not! Just because this is a mystery to us, that we accept irregardless by faith, does not grant us the privilege to confer diety upon Mary to satisfy our own finite sense of logic.

Luke 1:28 NIV​

"The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

Mary was chosen because she was "highly favored". Not because she was sinless.

Luke 1:29-33 NIV

" Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

The "Son of the Most High" - His spiritual Father. Nowhere is Mary likewise referred to as "Most High".

Luke 2:41-42 NIV

" When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

I have yet to meet a believer, of any denomination, who does not honor Mary as the most blessed of all women. An unwillingness to venerate her beyond Scripture, however, by conferring upon her immaculate status and crowning her as a Heavenly Queen (or prayer intercessor), does not dampen the esteem she is held in by the majority of the invisible universal Church.

A quick aside, and speaking of prayer, there is zero biblical mandate for us to pray to saints, either. Great men and women that they were, they have no greater authority than we have - their brothers and sisters - in that we are ALL saints. Praying to saints past is about effective as praying to each other. Might as well be praying into the wind.

For that matter, so is bowing down and praying to any statue or image.

Isn't it disturbing enough that the world we live in will bow down and worship just about anyone and everything other than the only One worthy - Jesus?

So back to Mary, I don't see anywhere in Scripture where she declares herself anything beyond a humble servant. To wit - both she and Elizabeth refer to Mary's child as "Lord".

Elizabeth identifies why Mary is so blessed, because of her FAITH. Nothing else.

Mary is saved, and blessed, and highly favored, by faith in her own Son.

As are all us who are saved, and blessed, by faith.

For further consideration...

Luke 2 NIV​

The Birth of Jesus​

2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3 And everyone went to their own town to register.

4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. 9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. 12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven,
and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”
15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”

Who did the angel and the heavenly host give glory to?

God. And God ALONE.

"16 So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. 17 When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, 18 and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. 19 But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.

Even Mary requires faith to digest what she had been told about the divinity of her child. She, like all of us in our shared humanity, are unable to grasp according to our own understanding.

"20 The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told."

Now the shepherds, illuminated by the testimony of the angels and the heavenly host, join in on glorifying and praising God - ALONE.

"21 On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise the child, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he was conceived."

Jesus Presented in the Temple​

22 When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”[b]), 24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”[c]

25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah. 27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:

29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you may now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
and the glory of your people Israel.”
33 The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him."

Why did they marvel? Perhaps because, like all of us God's children, their faith sometimes requires bolstering through other's witness?

"34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

We must say this, even though Mary is uniquely blessed amongst all mortal women, she was also destined to endure the same pain as Jesus' heavenly Father at His suffering and death. Yes indeed, only a mother who has carried, given birth to, nurtured and raised the Son can feel that wound as profoundly as His Father.

"36 There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four.[e] She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. 38 Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem."

What a wonderful picture, another woman to give evidence for Mary (and Joseph), to treasure in their hearts.

"39 When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. 40 And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on him."

The Boy Jesus at the Temple​

41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. 43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”[f] 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them."

Jesus was already acknowledging the supreme authority of His Heavenly Father and of submitting to His will. Even so, upon their admonition, Jesus went on to honor His earthly father and mother so as to fulfill the 7th commandment:

"51 Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man."

I'm under no illusion that anyone other than Jesus can reconcile the doctrinal differences between denominations. But I wholehearted do believe that He will unite His Bride as one eventually (and is steadily moving us toward that goal even as the world around us is drawing ever closer to the fires of hell), because that is what Jesus prayed to the heavenly Father for us all - making it into a promise that - along with all His promises - He will certainly fulfill.

In the meantime, and for myself and to that end, I deliberately choose to keep my denomination to myself. I don't give a flip what anyone else's denomination here is. If I knew yours, and you knew mine, I'm sure we might not darken the other's church's doors. So what? Doesn't prevent us from working shoulder to shoulder in proclaiming the absolute essentials of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to each other and to the lost.

I've had my say, I'll leave what I consider to be idol worship up to you and God, as I'm sure that you do with me.

But sorry, for this one and only time, from a former gross idolator, I couldn't live with myself and claim to love ANY of you if I kept my silence any longer. I want to spare as many brethren as I can from the pain when God has had enough and rips them from our hands.

There's a reason that John closes one of his letters, to CHRISTIANS, with a line seemingly out of the blue - "little children, keep yourself from idols." 1 John 5:21 NIV

So I'll continue to do what I've been doing... as always when you make a post that is Scripturally supported and Spirit inspired, I give a big thumbs up and offer encouragement and my words of agreement as often as I possibly can. However limited my understanding may be, I remain in daily prayer to recognize expressions of the Father's love when I see it. That's all I know to do.

So please, where you see me erring, blast away! I live to abide by this simple motto:

Proverbs 27:6 NKJV

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend,
But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful."

God bless!​

 

[Grip Docility]

Jesus is fully God begotten of His Spiritual Father. Jesus is fully human through his human mother (herself a created being, unlike her eternal Son).
Mary is therefore NOT Jesus' eternal spiritual Mother from eternity past, and is certainly not pre-existent - as are the Holy Father, the Holy Spirit, The Holy Son (truly immaculate Himself).
mother of God IN THE FLESH? Yes.

Believe it or not, you just sided with myself, the Orthodox and the Catholics. There are people on this thread that are afraid to declare Mary the Mother of God. You just had the scriptural integrity to do so. Unfortunately, many Catholics are misrepresented in light of this doctrine. I'm little "c" universal. Much of Protestantism misses that Jesus is God and Mary is His Biological Mommy.

The real heart of the matter is gnostic doctrine that makes Sin a matter of the FLESH. Gnosticism teaches that all flesh is satanic and evil. This led to doctrines that divide the person of Jesus Christ.

God the Son, the Son of God was born the fulness of the Godhead bodily and Mary was His mother. This seems to upset some folks. I can't deny it, because it is scriptural.

 

[Joseph G]

Believe it or not, you just sided with myself, the Orthodox and the Catholics. There are people on this thread that are afraid to declare Mary the Mother of God. You just had the scriptural integrity to do so. Unfortunately, many Catholics are misrepresented in light of this doctrine. I'm little "c" universal. Much of Protestantism misses that Jesus is God and Mary is His Biological Mommy.

The real heart of the matter is gnostic doctrine that makes Sin a matter of the FLESH. Gnosticism teaches that all flesh is satanic and evil. This led to doctrines that divide the person of Jesus Christ.

God the Son, the Son of God was born the fulness of the Godhead bodily and Mary was His mother. This seems to upset some folks. I can't deny it, because it is scriptural.

Totally agree, Grip. Posting here has been a real learning experience, a good one! Seems like God keeps knocking down more of my preconceived notions and prejudices every day. Makes this journey a lot more joyful, doesn't it? Appreciate you.

 

[RandyPNW]

Technically I still am one. <Laugh>

How many will agree with this? Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God.

If you don't know if you're *really* a Protestant, you're probably something else.

 

[RandyPNW]

Only God is Good. Mary was imperfect in comparison to God. This is true. However, by being the God Bearer, she is the Mother of God and if you desire to challenge this, you can take it up with God.

As I said I have no problem with "God bearer" if understood as an argument for the Trinity. When used to indicate God the Father had a mother, I would reject that. When used to give Mary an air of superiority I would reject that. If Paul viewed himself as "nothing," we should view ourselves and Mary as "nothing," as well. You think?

 

[RandyPNW]

The historical Nestorian argument against calling Mary "theotokos" wasn't that it would imply she was the mother of the Father, it was that "Christ" is (according to the argument) a combination of the divine Son and a man, Jesus, whose will was perfectly conformed to the divine will and who is glorified as divine because of his perfect cooperation with God the Son, and that Mary was therefore the mother of Jesus the man, or at best Christ the combination, but not God the Son.

You need to go back and read how this started. I said precisely what you said. I never had a problem with theotokos when understood properly as an argument for the Trinity.

Nobody uses the term to say that Mary was even the eternal begetter of the Son, much less the Father.

That's my point. So when theotokos is used to glorify Mary as "Queen of Heaven," as sinless, and as someone we should pray to, I denounce that particular use of the term, "Mother of God."

This explanation seems correct; God the Son did eternally preexist the Incarnation, and He is identified with God's Word, without Whom "was not any thing that was made" (John 1:3). My concern was that you used terms like "made" and "product" in referring to God the Son, which sounded like you envisioned Him as having been created at some point, either through creation ex nihilo or through some change in the Word in the Incarnation.

I understand this issue, as well. The body and human spirit of Jesus was indeed created. His expression as a human, body and spirit, was the product of God's eternal Word. God created an expression of His divine Person out of His own divine Person, producing two Persons (and more).

Heb 10.5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.

How can God created something that did not exist before out of something that did exist before? That's what the Word of God can do. It contained an eternal potential which, when realized, can produce God's Person in a new form.

 

[Grip Docility]

As I said I have no problem with "God bearer" if understood as an argument for the Trinity. When used to indicate God the Father had a mother, I would reject that. When used to give Mary an air of superiority I would reject that. If Paul viewed himself as "nothing," we should view ourselves and Mary as "nothing," as well. You think?

My Brother in Jesus Christ, I have been in the Navy and worked in the oilfield. My language has been colorful by colloquial surroundings many times in my life.

I was using slang that involved the Mother Mary one day and the Holy Spirit convicted me like there was no tomorrow that God has a Mommy.

Is Mary beneath God? Yes

Is Mary the Mother of the fullness of the Godhead Bodily through giving Biological contribution to the very flesh of the Incarnation as the Incarnations biological Mother and God bearer? Yes

God has a Mommy. Tread accordingly by your convictions.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, sibling in Him.

 

[RandyPNW]

You don't get to pick the Trinity apart. Jesus is God, and He had a Mother.

I never said Jesus wasn't God and didn't have a Mother. If you can't get it right, then we can't have a conversation. I'm not going to give any credence to disinformation.

 

[RandyPNW]

I am beyond confused as to how some in this thread cannot understand that the term of Mother of God is used to protect the Incarnation and the two natures of Christ.

You should read from the start where I began with that disclaimer. Mother of God is used by Catholics differently than how it was originally used.

It was originally used to defend the Deity of Christ and the Trinity. Later, Catholics used it to elevate Mary to heights God never envisioned for her. She was not a perpetual virgin, was not, sinless, was not superior to all other women (and men), and is never called the "Queen of Heaven."

Hero-worship, or a form of idolatry, at worst, is my opinion. And the fact it is a Catholic tradition causes Catholics to defend it, instead of protecting their faith from over-reaches. Catholics, at one time, actually burned people who questioned ridiculous Catholic doctrines like "indulgences," belief the sun is the center of our solar system, and the right to translate Scriptures by Christians outside of Catholic authority.

Though this may be read as Catholic hatred, I have no such hatred for Catholics. As brothers and sisters in Christ I would only plead with them to stop being so sectarian and controlling in their denomination. I know--probably falls on deaf ears. But maybe some????

I said in Post 18: 1) The "Mother of God" title originated with a different argument, with arguing for the Trinity. Mary gave birth to a God-Man--not obviously to God the Father. So painting her as "Mother of God" has migrated into something else more akin with Greek mythology. The "Mother of God" must be some kind of God herself!

 

[Grip Docility]

You should read from the start where I began with that disclaimer. Mother of God is used by Catholics differently than how it was originally used.

It was originally used to defend the Deity of Christ and the Trinity. Later, Catholics used it to elevate Mary to heights God never envisioned for her. She was not a perpetual virgin, was not, sinless, was not superior to all other women (and men), and is never called the "Queen of Heaven."

Hero-worship, or a form of idolatry, at worst, is my opinion. And the fact it is a Catholic tradition causes Catholics to defend it, instead of protecting their faith from over-reaches. Catholics, at one time, actually burned people who questioned ridiculous Catholic doctrines like "indulgences," belief the sun is the center of our solar system, and the right to translate Scriptures by Christians outside of Catholic authority.

Though this may be read as Catholic hatred, I have no such hatred for Catholics. As brothers and sisters in Christ I would only plead with them to stop being so sectarian and controlling in their denomination. I know--probably falls on deaf ears. But maybe some????

Where in scripture, Which is and always has read Patriarchal for God’s sake placed a Queen on equal status with a King?

 

[RandyPNW]

My Brother in Jesus Christ, I have been in the Navy and worked in the oilfield. My language has been colorful by colloquial surroundings many times in my life.

I was using slang that involved the Mother Mary one day and the Holy Spirit convicted me like there was no tomorrow that God has a Mommy.

Is Mary beneath God? Yes

Is Mary the Mother of the fullness of the Godhead Bodily through giving Biological contribution to the very flesh of the Incarnation as the Incarnations biological Mother and God bearer? Yes

God has a Mommy. Tread accordingly by your convictions.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, sibling in Him.

Brother, I just don't think you understand my argument? This has never been about whether the God-Man has a "Mommy." Mary was his mother. In post 18 I said this:
1) The "Mother of God" title originated with a different argument, with arguing for the Trinity. Mary gave birth to a God-Man--not obviously to God the Father. So painting her as "Mother of God" has migrated into something else more akin with Greek mythology. The "Mother of God" must be some kind of God herself!

 

[RandyPNW]

Where in scripture, Which is and always has read Patriarchal for God’s sake placed a Queen on equal status with a King?

Israel had queens in place of kings. But that isn't the point. Mary has never been titled a "queen." At best she is a descendent of King David. But she did not carry the royal line. Nor was she given some messianic title in biblical prophecy. She would simply bear the Christ.

That was her blessing, to be part of a work so important to humanity. We can all do work for the Lord that is equally important to Christ. We just need to hear from God and do it. Mary did that, and she was blessed. We can do perhaps a much smaller work but equally essential in God's Kingdom if we ask and obey.

This is why we should not elevate Mary unduly or hero-worship. It removes responsibility from ourselves and places it on someone else.

 

[Grip Docility]

Brother, I just don't think you understand my argument? This has never been about whether the God-Man has a "Mommy." Mary was his mother. In post 18 I said this:
1) The "Mother of God" title originated with a different argument, with arguing for the Trinity. Mary gave birth to a God-Man--not obviously to God the Father. So painting her as "Mother of God" has migrated into something else more akin with Greek mythology. The "Mother of God" must be some kind of God herself!

In Love, I assure you that Catholics don’t “Deify” Mary.

She represents the Love of a mother, who is of our bloodline, all the way back to Eve.

Catholics of all denominations know to only worship the Creator, not the creation. I assure you of this.

There would have to be a quadrinity if Mary was seen in that light. There isn’t. I assure you that many misunderstand the matter and fairly so because of some bad blood that started at schism .

Luther did okay.

The rest of the Protest was far too rabid. Luther spoke very boldly and insulting about the mother church that was very exceedingly Human of him to do, yet, true Lutheran belief is much closer to Orthodox and Catholicism.

The protest against fellow believers in Christ has led many too far from scripture.

Simplicity and Unity in Love is our call, by provision of Jesus. I encourage you to find unity, instead of division, here… yet respect and support your right to express conviction.

All Love, sincerely from my heart and in the Provision of Jesus Christ to you, Brother in Him, who I do Love, whether we disagree or find peace in disagreeing.

 

[Grip Docility]

Israel had queens in place of kings. But that isn't the point. Mary has never been titled a "queen." At best she is a descendent of King David. But she did not carry the royal line. Nor was she given some messianic title in biblical prophecy. She would simply bear the Christ.

That was her blessing, to be part of a work so important to humanity. We can all do work for the Lord that is equally important to Christ. We just need to hear from God and do it. Mary did that, and she was blessed. We can do perhaps a much smaller work but equally essential in God's Kingdom if we ask and obey.

This is why we should not elevate Mary unduly or hero-worship. It removes responsibility from ourselves and places it on someone else.

I will be sincere. Catholics ask the Saints on earth and Heaven to petition for them in prayer because they know in all faith that we will be with Jesus, alive with the God of the living, when we shed this mortal coil.

That is beautiful and Faith building in Jesus Christ, the fruit of Mary’s womb, is it not my loving brother who elevates Jesus just as highly as all in this thread do?

 

[RandyPNW]

In Love, I assure you that Catholics don’t “Deify” Mary.

When I suggest Catholics "deify" Mary, I'm not being overly literal. I'm suggesting that they elevate her to a kind of supernatural level that extends above the rest of mankind, an Arian-type of god-woman.

I accept that Catholics do not pray to Mary as if to God Himself. They do not think Mary shares Deity with God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. What they do is elevate her unduly--that I'm sure of. Calling her sinless, a perpetual virgin, and Queen of Heaven to be prayed to is beyond the pale in my view. And it isn't biblical.

Luther did okay.

The rest of the Protest was far too rabid. Luther spoke very boldly and insulting about the mother church that was very exceedingly Human of him to do, yet, true Lutheran belief is much closer to Orthodox and Catholicism.

What would you do if Catholics, in bad faith, promised to give you a hearing but really planned to burn you at the stake? As a Catholic theologian it was Luther's job to address biblical issues, and his aim was not to destroy Catholicism but rather, to reform it. That fell on deaf ears. It was rejected with such violence that Luther was tempted to respond in kind.

I don't think Luther was perfect in every way he responded. But I side with him on the issues because they do not protect tradition--instead they defend the Scriptures.

Quite frankly, I don't agree with Luther in all of his beliefs either. But I should think Luther would respond a little more generously than Catholics, though perhaps not? He wasn't very tolerant towards the Anabaptists!

The protest against fellow believers in Christ has led many too far from scripture.

Simplicity and Unity in Love is our call, by provision of Jesus. I encourage you to find unity, instead of division, here… yet respect and support your right to express conviction.

All Love, sincerely from my heart and in the Provision of Jesus Christ to you, Brother in Him, who I do Love, whether we disagree or find peace in disagreeing.

Very kind of you to close our discussion with a truly biblical admonition! I concur. Thank you!