Sabbath keeping

[Clare73]

No, you are arguing with God. Exo 20:10 Hebrews 4:4 is referring us back to what God said Exo 20:8-11

Nothing in Hebrews says the Sabbath is daily. God already defined when is the Sabbath, His Authority is everlasting and changes not.

What do you think "full-time" means?

God's own ("my") full-time Sabbath rest (Heb 4:3) into which we enter Today (Heb 4:6-11) in Jesus Christ is full-time; i.e., daily.

 

[BobRyan]

God's own ("my") full-time rest (Heb 4:3) into which we enter in Jesus Christ is full-time; i.e., daily.

Matt 11 -
28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is comfortable, and My burden is light.”

Does not say "and I will delete the Sabbath commandment"
Does not say "and I will make every day Sabbath"
Nor do we see any accusations by the Jews that Jesus had declared Sabbath to be "every day" or "no day" or ...

There is just no support in scripture for that idea.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God's own ("my") full-time rest (Heb 4:3) into which we enter in Jesus Christ is full-time; i.e., daily.

In God’s rest there is no rebellion to His commandments- including the 4th commandment written by God on His Authroity that He said He would not change Psa 89:34

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

It’s why the Holy Spirit calls on us TODAY, if we hear His voice out of our rebellion to God Hebrews 3:7-8 and to not follow the example of those who disobeyed in the wilderness who also profaned God’s Sabbath Eze 20:13 Exo 20:21 and many were consumed in the wilderness and never entered their rest into Canaan. Which is a warning to us not to follow their path of disobedience which is also unbelief. Heb 4:6 Heb 4:3 Heb 4:11

 

[Clare73]

the Holy Spirit calls on us TODAY, if we hear His voice out of our rebellion to God Hebrews 3:7-8 and to not follow the example of those who disobeyed in the wilderness who also profaned God’s Sabbath Eze 20:13 Exo 20:21 and many were consumed in the wilderness and never entered their rest into Canaan.

They were exiled from Canaan (Nu 14:21), not for refusing to observe the Sabbath, but solely for refusing to enter (Nu 13:26 -14:1-4) their promised Canaan rest (Ex 33:14, Dt 12:9-10, Josh 1:13).

Disobedience, in the context of Heb, means apostasizing from Christianity (Heb 3:12), failing to enter (Heb 4:6) their salvation rest (Heb 4:1, 3), as their forefathers had failed to enter their promised Canaan rest.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

They were exiled from Canaan (Nu 14:21), not for refusing to observe the Sabbath, but solely for refusing to enter (Nu 13:26 - 14:1-4) their promised Canaan rest (Ex 33:14, Dt 12:9-10, Josh 1:13).

Disobedience, in the context of Heb, means apostasizing from Christianity (Heb 3:12), failing to enter (Heb 4:6) their salvation rest (Heb 4:1), as their forefathers had failed to enter their promised Canaan rest.

Eze 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Hebrews 3 and 4 is a direct quote from David in Psalms

Psa 95: Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

Disobeying God and God’s commandments is apostatizing from Christianity. Isa 59:2 Rom 8:7-8 It’s what Hebrews 3 and 4 is about in particular singled out for Sabbath-keeping, which remains for God’s people. Heb 4:9NIV God’s people keep God’s commandments because we do not rebel against what God placed in our hearts Heb 8:10 we keep through faith and love 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 Rom 3:31

Rev 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Which reconciles us into our promised rest

Rev 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

There are great parallels between the Israelites in the wilderness and where we are today. Not much has changed, people went astray in their hearts then, just like Jesus said we do when we keep our rules over keeping the commandments of God Mat 15:3-14

 

[Leaf473]

who are the 7 day sabbath observer?, do you mean the Jewish people, SDA denomination or any other denomination?, also pepple like myself not part of any denomination simply following the sabbath as in the 10 commandments?

Seventh day observers would be mostly SDA's here on CF, with a few other folks such as yourself

yes the bible mention a specific day and time frame like I explained quoting scripture in a previous answer to your post .

Great

I understand perfectly what you mean and what you meant in previous posts and answered already

I had asked for scripture references. What I saw in the critical part of your response was what I took to be a reference to local customs or government decisions. As in, the government says it's Friday, so it must be the 6th day.

makes no difference where you are , just follow the sabbath command as described in the fourth commandment.

The fourth commandment references the Sabbath, which I take to mean the seventh day. But there are two different sunsets which could potentially mark the beginning of the seventh day.

no matter where you are in the world to observe the sabbath you follow the instruction of the fourth commandments for the time it is this;

Jewish practice follows this tradition, beginning the Sabbath at sunset on Friday and ending it at sunset on Saturday. This timing aligns with the broader biblical principle that days begin in the evening, as indicated in Genesis;


Genesis 1:5:

There are two potential sunsets, unless one believes that God has given human governments the authority to say what day it is.

Leaf, have answered all your questions multiple times, unless you have unrelated questions I will no longer reply to your questions on this topic.

Blessings.

You have responded, and I thank you for your time

I do not agree that you provided scripture references for the critical piece, determining which sunset

If you don't want to talk anymore, that's fine.
Blessings to you as well

 

[Clare73]

Eze 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Which is not the issue of Heb 3:7-4:11, which issue is refusal to enter salvation rest (saving faith in Jesus Christ) as they had refused to enter Canaan rest from their enemies (Dt 25:19).

And you will note that God's anger regarding violations of the Sabbath were about working on the Sabbath.
The meaning of the Sabbath was rest. . .a prefigure of our salvation rest in Jesus Christ, from our own work to save and in his work which saves.
Violation of that pre-figure of salvation rest brought great anger from God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Which is not the issue of Heb 3:7-4:11, which issue is refusal to enter salvation rest (saving faith in Jesus Christ) as they had refused to enter Canaan rest from their enemies (Dt 25:19).

The scriptures I provided show they did not enter due to disobedience and what they were disobedient of, which was Sabbath-keeping among other things , but all gets sorted out soon enough, no point in going over again. I do wish you well, take care.

 

[Leaf473]

nope.

we have scripture.

And you??

I presented the scripture that I thought most seventh day observers referred to in order to indicate that the sunset marking the beginning of the seventh day was established, at least in the wilderness. It didn't get a positive reception from the person I was replying to

Read the Sabbath commandment and tell us what you find there.

It looks to me like the fourth commandment was referring to a particular day.

Did you ever find the Sabbath commandment of Ex 20:8-11 to say any such thing?

No. I was kind of surprised at the response I got from the Seventh-Day observer I was talking to. I considered that maybe we weren't communicating well

no doubt it does.

There are Jews and Adventists and other Sabbath keeping Christians in the Philippines as well - is that a surprise in your POV?

It's not a surprise at all.

Now... If you wish to talk about this,
Is there a scripture passage that says how to decide if the sunset in the Philippines that marks the beginning of the seventh day comes before or after the sunset on the east side of the USA that marks the beginning of the seventh day?

Peace be with you, my man!

 

[BobRyan]

My impression from Seventh-Day observers was that it was important to observe a particular seventh day.

agreed -- Read the Sabbath commandment and tell us what you find there.

The Seventh day.

It appears this is not a problem for Christians all over the Earth or for Jews all over the Earth.

Do you also find that to be the case?

We were not to just pick one 24-hour period out of every seven 24-hour periods.

True -- Or did you ever find the Sabbath commandment of Ex 20:8-11 to say any thing other than that?

I presented the scripture that I thought most seventh day observers referred to in order to indicate that the sunset marking the beginning of the seventh day was established, at least in the wilderness. It didn't get a positive reception from the person I was replying to

It looks to me like the fourth commandment was referring to a particular day.

It says the 7th day in the actual text - Ex 20:8-11, Gen 2:2-3

Is there a scripture passage that says how to decide if the sunset in the Philippines that marks the beginning of the seventh day comes before or after the sunset on the east side of the USA that marks the beginning of the seventh day?

Is there are reason to believe that the Philippines and the USA have the same sunset even though they are on opposite sides of the Earth?

Are you ok with the idea that the earth is round and that sunset time travels around the world as it rotates?
Is this a debatable idea in your POV??

 

[BobRyan]

Which is not the issue of Heb 3:7-4:11, which issue is refusal to enter salvation rest (saving faith in Jesus Christ) as they had refused to enter Canaan rest from their enemies (Dt 25:19).

Heb 11 a lot of OT saints shown as entering Christ's rest.
Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah in glory with Christ - even before the cross - shown as entering Christ's rest.
Heb 3 - Moses called God's faithful servant.

All of them keeping the Sabbath commandment as it reads - yet also born again saints. Alive in Christ , living by faith as Heb 11 points out.

 

[HIM]

And I follow Heb 4:8-11, that "(an)other Sabbath-rest for the people of God" (Heb 4:8-11).

No, Because it does not teach that. Yet you keep saying It.

As was said, You are not showing anything. You expressed what you feel without showing it in the passages cited. Another day is being stated in respect being called today to repentance and entering into the promised land, Christ Jesus. Our true rest. Canaan, the promised land was but a shadow and truly could only really be experienced to it's fullest by those who were living through God and His Spirit even then. Christ is the reality. Whose house we are if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end. For He Himself being tempted will help (succor) us in our time of need! All this was given to you earlier and you ignored it.

So PLEASE READ THIS.

In a given topic in respect to reading comprehension; we must understand that the context MUST hold true the whole way through. One thing stated must build on the other until the conclusion and there is an obvious change in the subject. That is how syntax works. And IF there is something that you think is wrong or don't understand state what it is and why. That is how this works. To often people just talk over one another without addressing one another's points. Or just ignore things entirely due to preconceived notions and ideals. Let's not do that.



There are two things being spoken of in verses 1 -11. The rest which verse one speaks.


Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

And this rest is called the Gospel in verse 2


Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Please Note In verse 3 that we who do believe do enter into this Rest that is the Gospel.

Something else that verse three brings out is that the works for this rest which is the Gospel have been finished since the foundation of the world As Rev13:8 attests," the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth." And 1 Pet 1:20 affirms, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Verse 4 also attests that the works for this rest, which is the Gospel were finished from the foundation of the world. In that The Spirit also continues and says. " And God did rest the Seventh Day from all His works".

All includes all. And that includes all that was needed for the rest which is the Gospel. So this means that the benefits of the Gospel were available for all since the foundation of the World. Hence why Moses pleads with God that the people not be taken out of the Book of Life in Ex 32:32. And Rev 17:8 also gives us the same witness, when it says. "The book of life from the foundation of the world". And why verse 2 here in Hebrews says the Gospel was preached to them as well as us.

There is something else here that is equally important that most miss and needs noted.
First, we see that God spake in a certain place. God only spoke on the Sabbath in one location. And that location was Mt. Sinai when He spoke the commandments. When He spoke it He gave, the fact that He rested from all His works for the reason for having the Sabbath for us who call on His name. Then coupled that with Heb 4:5 addressing the fact that He is speaking this again. The statement "In this again" reverts back to the fact that He spoke of the Seventh Day in verse 4. Here in verse 5 He says, In this again he speaks of the 7th day as HE DID ON SINIA as a commandment, if they shall enter in my rest. His rest which is the Gospel.

Two things here being mentioned not one. The Gospel rest which the previous verses bring out and speaking of the Seventh Day if they shall enter this rest which is the Gospel.

The rest mentioned here is the same rest mentioned in verses 1-4. The rest that MOST but not all Israel could not partake of due to unbelief, the Gospel Rest, a life in and of God through Christ Jesus.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Heb 4:5-8 is also a call to repentance. As was Heb 3:6-19. The Promised land was and is a reality. However it is result and only experienced through and in God and His righteousness through His Spirit. It is a fruit of Living through God and His Christ. So let's not harden our hearts as in in the day provocation, When Israel tempted God, though they seen His works they still had an evil heart of disobedient unbelief departing from God. Sinning they grieved God and their carcasses fell in the wilderness. Heb 3:6-19 They refused His Spiritual rest in and through Him, the Gospel. So they never truly experienced the promised land due to their evil hearts of unbelief. For the Gospel was preached to them as well but did not profit them. Because they had no faith, they did not trust God to live in His Way through His Spirit. So today, right now let us not harden our hearts as they did. For the promised land is not Cannan. IT IS CHRIST, whose HOUSE WE ARE. If we hold the beginning of our confidence in HIM FIRM unto the end. The flowing with milk and honey is subject to the milk and Honey of living through His Spirit, through His Christ. For if Joshua had given them this rest, which is the Gospel, by entering into the promised land, God through David would not afterward spoken of another day.


Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Heb 4:7 and 8 should be in parenthesis to avoid confusion. It is separate context that is related but not directly with what was previously stated in Heb 4:4-6. Noah Webster in his translation seen this, but took it to far and included verse 9 and 10 in his surmising. However Verse 9 picks up off the same context as verse 4- 6 where is says that he speaks again of the 7th Day if we shall enter into his rest which is the Gospel. He adds in verse 9 there remains a Sabbath keeping to the people of God. The fact that verse 10 starts with the word "for" adds to this fact for it says For he that entered to his rest which is the Gospel ALSO cease from their own works AS God did from His. The word "also" also shows us that the Spirit is speaking of two different things like in verse 4 and 5. So we who have enter into His rest which is the Gospel also cease from our own works as God did from His. So there would be no confusion God through the Spirit used the word "as" here. As is a direct comparison. So what is being said here is we who have entered into his rest which is the Gospel Also cease from our own works AS God did. God stop working the physical work of creating. So we who have entered in the Rest in Christ also cease from our physical work as God did and rest ON the Seventh Day from all our works because He again speaks of it.

So let us use speed to enter into the rest which is the Gospel, living in and through God through Christ to His fullest. Lest any of us should fall after the same example of unbelief, hardhearted sinful disobedience, departing from the living God. Amen

Heb 4:9 So, then, there remains a sabbath keeping to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he entering into his rest, he himself also rested from his works, as God had rested from His own.
Heb 4:11 Therefore, let us exert ourselves to enter into that rest, that not anyone fall in the same example of disobedience.

 

[Bob S]

Matt 11 -
28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is comfortable, and My burden is light.”

Does not say "and I will delete the Sabbath commandment"
Does not say "and I will make every day Sabbath"
Nor do we see any accusations by the Jews that Jesus had declared Sabbath to be "every day" or "no day" or ...

There is just no support in scripture for that idea.

There is absolutely no support in scripture to support the notion that Gentiles were demanded to observe the Sabbath. He did demand that those who came out of bondage in Egypt keep it. They failed to observe it as demanded, so why do some today believe the can do better than the Israelites did? And why do Adventists insist that everyone has to keep what they are not able to keep, and that God never demanded?

 

[Leaf473]

agreed -- Read the Sabbath commandment and tell us what you find there.

The Seventh day.

It appears this is not a problem for Christians all over the Earth or for Jews all over the Earth.

Do you also find that to be the case?

It's not a problem if you're willing to use tradition or the decisions of human governments. And it's fine too if God gave human governments the authority to say what day it was, or when the days change.

My impression was that Christian seventh day observers in general were suspicious of human governments having authority over days.

I was asking about scripture references
(not tradition or decisions of human governments)
that would say if the sunset that begins the 7th Day happens first in the east side of the USA or the Philippines

True -- Or did you ever find the Sabbath commandment of Ex 20:8-11 to say any thing other than that?

That's what I found in the fourth commandment, as well

The subject of my question, though, is:
According to the scriptures,
does the seventh Day begin in the Philippines and then 12 hours later in the east side of the USA, or vice versa?

Iirc you live in Georgia. If a person there begins observing a seventh day 12 hours after they started observing it in the Philippines,
but according to the scriptures they should be celebrating it 12 hours before sunset in the Philippines,
then they're 24 hours off

Questions I'm not asking:
Does the seventh Day begin at sunset?
Is the Sabbath the seventh day?

It says the 7th day in the actual text - Ex 20:8-11, Gen 2:2-3

Yep

Is there are reason to believe that the Philippines and the USA have the same sunset even though they are on opposite sides of the Earth?

No. I believe I've talked about how the sunsets are 12 hours apart

Are you ok with the idea that the earth is round and that sunset time travels around the world as it rotates?

I'm okay with that idea. Indeed, the time it takes for sunset to travel around the world is what raises the issue.

If it were only a few minutes, the seventh day observer I was talking to before would be right in saying that it was a pharisaical question.

But from the time the sun sets in the east side of the USA until it reaches the Philippines is 12 hours. And then it's another 12 hours before it reaches the east side of the USA again. That's a difference of 24 hours, which would be a different day.

And of course, we can say the sun sets in the Philippines, then it's 12 hours before it sets in east side of the USA, then another 12 hours before it arrives back in the Philippines.

Is this a debatable idea in your POV??

No, it's not a debatable idea.

Peace be with you

 

[Clare73]

The scriptures I provided show they did not enter due to disobedience and what they were disobedient of, which was Sabbath-keeping among other things , but all gets sorted out soon enough, no point in going over again. I do wish you well, take care.

Hebrews is not about Christian Hebrews failing to keep the Sabbath. That is the last thing they would do.

Hebrews is about, apparently due to consideration of returning to Judaism
(evidenced by the presentation of Christ as superior to angels and Moses, both of whom they believed gave the law),
apostasizing from Christianity (Heb 3:12), and
warnings (2:1-4, 4:1-13, 5:11-6:12, 11:1-38, 12:14-28) regarding failing to enter their salvation rest in Jesus Christ;
in particular, the impossibility of bringing them back to repentance because
a) they are like the Jews who killed Christ, they cannot be brought to repentance in Judaism while they are rejecting (crucifying) Christ,
b) if they reject the sacrifice of Christ, there is no sacrifice left for them (10:26), and
c ) they sin against the remedy, for which there is no forgiveness (Lev 17:15-16, Nu 15:30, 19:13, 35:26-27, 1 Sa 2:5, Mt 12:31-32, Jn 3:36).

Hebrews is not about failing to keep the Sabbath, it is about failing to enter their Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ, where they rest from their own work to save and in his work which saves.

 

[Clare73]

Heb 11 a lot of OT saints shown as entering Christ's rest.

My post was not about Heb 11.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hebrews is not about failing to keep the Sabbath, it is about failing to enter their Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ, where they rest from their own work to save and in his work which saves.

Best not to redefine something God already defined for us Exo 20:10 , because we are not God. We do not enter into the seventh day Sabbath- we are to keep it holy Exo 20:8-11 We enter into Christ rest - through faith. Those with faith don’t rebel against God’s law, including the 4th commandment.

 

[Clare73]

Please Note In verse 3 that we who do believe do enter into this Rest that is the Gospel.

Which is rest from our own work to save and in Jesus' work which saves.

 

[Clare73]

Best not to redefine something God already defined for us Exo 20:10 , because we are not God. We do not enter into the seventh day Sabbath- we are to keep it holy Exo 20:8-11 We enter into Christ rest - through faith. Those with faith don’t rebel against God’s law, including the 4th commandment.

Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of error in my post.

 

[HIM]

Which is rest from our own work to save and in Jesus' work which saves.

Scripture says as God did. As God did is not that. So Unless you’re going to state, God needed Jesus to be saved. And I know you’re not saying that. Your argument is no argument. And that should be the end of it