Sabbath keeping

[SabbathBlessings]

Greetings!
thanks for the reply, but I still don’t know when the Sabbath begins or ends North of the Arctic Circle, or South of the Antarctic Circle.
please help.
And can I cook, bake, build a fire in my stove?
but utilities, rent all the rest predicated on a 30/31 day month?
what about internet usage?
I have no problem with not working, but what about all the rest?

You are looking at a minority of people in places that were never meant to be lived at. God understands about things that are out of peoples control, He knows who is making the efforts to obey Him. They still have days, and most will observe the Sabbath from evening to evening for examples 6pm to 6pm in these areas even if its still light. What excuse is that for us where we do have normal sunsets on the Sabbath?

I provided a list of biblical things we can do on the Sabbath- the Sabbath is about honoring God Isa 58:13- we can eat on the Sabbath - God gave double portion of manna on the Preparation Day (Friday) to eat on the Sabbath. So eating is allowed on the Sabbath. To put it in modern times, we should do all our grocery shopping on Friday and prepare everything, so eating isn't a main focus on Sabbath.

You might want to do some research on kindling a fire- its a lot of work and cannot compare that to a light switch which takes almost no effort. When we start fixating on all these things we can't do, we lose focus on what we should be doing and that is spending quality time with our Creator- Remembering everything He did for us, without any of our efforts. God never wants us to forget who our Creator is, who made us and where we came from Exo 20:11- which is why the Sabbath is everlasting. Its the other spirit that wants us to forget.

 

[Leaf473]

Interesting idea about humans meant to live only in certain parts of the world.

Without clothing and fire, humans can only live around the tropics. With clothing and fire
(and a shelter to contain the heat from the fire), they can live most anywhere on Earth that there is food and water imo.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 17:26-27 - New American Standard Bible

and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

www.biblegateway.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So living in the ocean or alligator infested areas, or on top of a volcano is something we should do.

People do live on all the face of the world, that does not mean all areas are meant to be lived in. God gave us plenty of usable land all over the earth to live in. If one chooses to live in areas that don't have regular sunsets- they can still keep the Sabbath as best they can, the majority of people do not have to worry about it. Those opposing it typically don't keep the Sabbath anyway and I don't think its wise to look for ways not to obey God, but we do have free will.

 

[DamianWarS]

People do live on all the face of the world, that does not mean all areas are meant to be lived in.

what is the source for this? The Arctic/Antarctic center has 6 months light and 6 months of darkness, bibcally speaking a year is only 1 complete day in this region so sabbath law would not be sustainable in this environment, the compromise would be the 7th year would be not as aggressive of work in order to meet sustainability. the poles are the most extreme areas affected of course but perfectly habitable areas exist outside of these areas that may not get 6 months of light but can get 2 weeks of it. Are we to form a doctrine that states only areas of the world where we can observe daily sunsets year-round are implicitly ordained for living and everywhere else we are not meant to live in? at what point do we admit these are environmental systems that were never intended to be applied universally?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

what is the source for this? The Arctic/Antarctic center has 6 months light and 6 months of darkness, bibcally speaking a year is only 1 complete day in this region so sabbath law would not be sustainable in this environment, the compromise would be the 7th year would be not as aggressive of work in order to meet sustainability. the poles are the most extreme areas affected of course but perfectly habitable areas exist outside of these areas that may not get 6 months of light but can get 2 weeks of it. Are we to form a doctrine that states only areas of the world where we can observe daily sunsets year-round are implicitly ordained for living and everywhere else we are not meant to live in? at what point do we admit these are environmental systems that were never intended to be applied universally?

You cut off the context of my post and obviously didn't read my post about how people go about obeying God on the Sabbath in these areas. Personally, I would be less concerned how people observe the Sabbath in these areas and more concerned about our own obedience to God. I don't think God is going to Judge us based on what others do or don't do, but based on our own deeds 2 Cor 5:10 The Sabbath keepers in these areas find ways to obey the best they can.

 

[DamianWarS]

You cut off the context of my post and obviously didn't read my post about how people go about obeying God on the Sabbath in these areas. Personally, I would be less concerned how people observe the Sabbath in these areas and more concerned about our own obedience to God. I don't think God is going to Judge us based on what others do or don't do, but based on our own deeds 2 Cor 5:10 The Sabbath keepers in these areas find ways to obey the best they can.

your context doesn't satisfy the answer. "as best they can" is ambiguous and could look like many different forms that you may or not agree with. you also have not provided any source to identify these areas as places not meant to live in, is this according to God or according to you. But I am not motivated in knowing how to keep the sabbath in their regions as I don't mark the sabbath by the sun, but by Christ so all have the same access.

obedience to God is of course all of our goal I would never suggest any person on this form teaches otherwise. However there are clear laws that are not universal and obedience is no longer the conversation when addressing these laws but rather that their meaning under a new covenant relationship (like in the case of circumcision which is usually undisputed). This is the controversy with the 4th commandment that platitudes or conflating ambiguous passages do not answer. I live to serve God in all areas of my life and this includes matters pertaining to the Sabbath. I do not take this subject lightly. in my experience accessibility of the gospel is the greater value we should strive for.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

your context doesn't satisfy the answer. "as best they can" is ambiguous and could look like many different forms that you may or not agree with. you also have not provided any source to identify these areas as places not meant to live in, is this according to God or according to you. But I am not motivated in knowing how to keep the sabbath in their regions as I don't mark the sabbath by the sun, but by Christ so all have the same access.

obedience to God is of course all of our goal I would never suggest any person on this form teaches otherwise. However there are clear laws that are not universal and obedience is no longer the conversation when addressing these laws but rather that their meaning under a new covenant relationship (like in the case of circumcision which is usually undisputed). This is the controversy with the 4th commandment that platitudes or conflating ambiguous passages do not answer. I live to serve God in all areas of my life and this includes matters pertaining to the Sabbath. I do not take this subject lightly. in my experience accessibility of the gospel is the greater value we should strive for.

We serve a reasonable God and if a Sabbath-keeper who does not have sunsets obeys the Sabbath the best they can, as most keep from 6pm to 6pm a full day, I would leave that between them and God and be more concerned with our own obedience when we don't have these obstacles. If we are constantly worrying about what other people are doing, we lose focus on our own relationship with Christ.

 

[DamianWarS]

I serve a reasonable God and if a Sabbath-keeper who does not have sunsets obeys the Sabbath the best they can, as most keep from 6pm to 6pm a full day, I would leave that between them and God and be more concerned with our own obedience when we don't have these obstacles. If we are constantly worrying about what other people are doing, we lose focus on our own relationship with Christ.

I agree that we shouldn't be so concerned about what others are doing but this is a internet forum where we are set out to answer questions as it pertains to what obedience to the sabbath looks like so we will have to address action along the way which is the context that I address these concerns. Otherwise, we should all probably be silent on this issue (and these forums)

 

[Leaf473]

So living in the ocean or alligator infested areas, or on top of a volcano is something we should do.

If that's where God appointed the boundaries of your nation

Hunter gatherers usually live where there is a good food supply. Using the Inuit as an example, they probably lived somewhere around southern Siberia in much earlier days. Some more powerful tribe probably pushed them North out of their hunting area. Eventually, they ended up crossing the Bering strait. Why didn't they move further south? There were probably other tribes there preventing them.

It appears, then, that the far north of the Americas is where God appointed the boundary for their Nation at that time..

As far as alligator infested areas, I think the Seminole Indians lived there. Again, these tribes live where there is food and someone else doesn't drive them away. Or they are the tribe that moves others away!

People do live on all the face of the world, that does not mean all areas are meant to be lived in. God gave us plenty of usable land all over the earth to live in.

If one chooses to live in areas that don't have regular sunsets- they can still keep the Sabbath as best they can, the majority of people do not have to worry about it.

Is there a scripture reference that says what to do if God has appointed the boundary of your nation to be in that area?

Those opposing it typically don't keep the Sabbath anyway and I don't think its wise to look for ways not to obey God, but we do have free will.

Peace be with you, my sister!

 

[Clare73]

Are you okay?

Thanks for caring. . .and are you?

The salvation rest, to which Hebrews is warning them not to fail to enter, is God''s full-time salvation rest in Jesus Christ (Heb 3:7-4:11).

 

[HIM]

this is not scripturally supported not to mention it avoids the question.

Sin didn't change things?

even if you don't live in the direct center of Arctic/antarctic which has 6 months light/darkness depending on the season, there still are many close regions that encounter periods of continuous sun/darkness in Argentina, Canada, Alaska, Russia, nordic regions, etc... which are countless millions of people who are unable to close a day because the sun never sets. This is problematic to systems that require the rising/setting of the sun to determine certain outcomes like fasting over Ramadan or in this case determining the passing of a day to establish a 7 day week and shows that they are not universal and are environment-specific.

Not for people of the Faith.

in the case of Sabbath it points to Christ so it doesn't matter if we can see the sun or not because we may still receive the sabbath.

Yes every Seven days.

 

[HIM]

in my experience accessibility of the gospel is the greater value we should strive for.

The Gospel? The Gospel enables us and gives us the desire to walk through His spirit through Christ. So your diatribe makes no sense in the Light of it.

the same article you posted. .

Thou understandest what thou readest?
Because Below is directly from the article. Maybe take a look at it this time.

"Moreover, human and insect studies conducted under controlled constant conditions devoid of environmental, social and other time cues report the persistence of 7 d rhythms, but with a slightly different (free-running) period (τ), indicating their source is endogenous."

"These biological rhythms are displayed at various levels of organization in diverse species - from the unicellular sea algae of Acetabularia and Goniaulax to plants, insects, fish, birds and mammals, including man - under natural as well as artificial, i.e. constant, environmental conditions. Nonetheless, very little is known about their derivation, functional advantage, adaptive value, synchronization and potential clinical relevance. About 7 d cosmic cycles are seemingly too weak, and the 6 d work/1 d rest week commanded from G-d through the Laws of Mosses to the Hebrews is too recent an event to be the origin in humans."


Endogenous, from within.
As in anything in respect to us and this world. It is affected by the environment it is in. But our environment does not determine our outcome or the best result. God does!

 

[DamianWarS]

Sin didn't change things?

Sure, but you're still missing the support. All you have is the title of your thesis, but the rest is empty pages.

Not for people of the Faith.

Systems that rely on the rising and setting of the sun are innately localised to the regions where you can observe them and cannot be universally applied to regions where you cannot obverse the sun rising and setting or at least not without some problems. A compromise needs to happen into order to practice sabbath keeping in these regions, the compromise is either you abondon the biblical definition or you accept a day may be much longer than 24 hrs. You can use your own definitions but it at least shows the law cannot be perfectly kept in these regions and a compromise needs to be made even if you have deemed it worthy.

The Gospel? The Gospel enables us and gives us the desire to walk through His spirit through Christ. So your diatribe makes no sense in the Light of it.

Indeed, but I'm not attacking the sabbath, you may disagree with me but please don't suggest I dishonor God.

Thou understandest what thou readest?
Because Below is directly from the article. Maybe take a look at it this time.

"Moreover, human and insect studies conducted under controlled constant conditions devoid of environmental, social and other time cues report the persistence of 7 d rhythms, but with a slightly different (free-running) period (τ), indicating their source is endogenous."

"These biological rhythms are displayed at various levels of organization in diverse species - from the unicellular sea algae of Acetabularia and Goniaulax to plants, insects, fish, birds and mammals, including man - under natural as well as artificial, i.e. constant, environmental conditions. Nonetheless, very little is known about their derivation, functional advantage, adaptive value, synchronization and potential clinical relevance. About 7 d cosmic cycles are seemingly too weak, and the 6 d work/1 d rest week commanded from G-d through the Laws of Mosses to the Hebrews is too recent an event to be the origin in humans."


Endogenous, from within.
As in anything in respect to us and this world. It is affected by the environment it is in. But our environment does not determine our outcome or the best result. God does!

The pattern can be explained through exogenous lunar cycles which can be divided into approx. 4, 7-day periods. "Free running" just means different things have a different patterns but may still align to lunar cycles.

Lunar cycles are more of a continuum from new to full then back to new in 29.5 days, so natural life will respond differently within these phases but it's a bit arbitrary to declare these are 7 day periods. You could take a slice at any time and obverse free running repeatable behavior within this cycles, 7 just happens to be the first prime number so it makes it hard to slice it up further. 7.375 days still would be more accurate which explains why the article uses the language "7 d rhythm-like phenomena", because it's aligned to lunar cycles not 7 day.

The article also just assumes sabbath over these cycles with no further explaintion. For some reason they think merely pointing out ambiguous free running 7-day-like cycles proves the sabbath law is written upon our hearts. It's lunar activity that's causing the observable phenomena not 7 day cycles.

 

[HIM]

Sure, but you're still missing the support. All you have is the title of your thesis, but the rest is empty pages.

Thesis? lol
Everything after the fall isn't what was intended.

A compromise needs to happen into order to practice sabbath keeping in these regions, the compromise is either you abondon the biblical definition or you accept a day may be much longer than 24 hrs. You can use your own definitions but it at least shows the law cannot be perfectly kept in these regions and a compromise needs to be made even if you have deemed it worthy.

No, faith in and through Christ does. The issue for the world and those whom are not of the faith started in the Garden with these words,
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The pattern can be explained through exogenous lunar cycles which can be divided into approx. 4, 7-day periods. "Free running" just means different things have a different patterns but may still align to lunar cycles.

Lunar cycles are more of a continuum from new to full then back to new in 29.5 days, so natural life will respond differently within these phases but it's a bit arbitrary to declare these are 7 day periods. You could take a slice at any time and obverse free running repeatable behavior within this cycles, 7 just happens to be the first prime number so it makes it hard to slice it up further. 7.375 days still would be more accurate which explains why the article uses the language "7 d rhythm-like phenomena", because it's aligned to lunar cycles not 7 day.

The article also just assumes sabbath over these cycles with no further explaintion. For some reason they think merely pointing out ambiguous free running 7-day-like cycles proves the sabbath law is written upon our hearts. It's lunar activity that's causing the observable phenomena not 7 day cycles.

What you say is nowhere in the article. The article states that "Cosmic cycles are seemingly to weak" In other words the Lunar and other cosmic cycles are too weak.

"About 7 d cosmic cycles are seemingly too weak, and the 6 d work/1 d rest week commanded from G-d through the Laws of Mosses to the Hebrews is too recent an event to be the origin in humans."


The article states. Under controlled constant conditions report the persistence of 7 d rhythms, but with a slightly different (free-running) period (τ), indicating their source is endogenous. (internal not external)"


"Moreover, human and insect studies conducted under controlled constant conditions devoid of environmental, social and other time cues report the persistence of 7 d rhythms, but with a slightly different (free-running) period (τ), indicating their source is endogenous."

The article states, "non-cyclic exogenous events can trigger 7 d rhythm-like phenomena. However, it is unknown whether such triggers unmask, amplify and/or synchronize previous non-overtly expressed oscillations"

Which is why they said the following.

"We hypothesize the 7 d time structure of human beings is endogenous in origin - a hypothesis that is affirmed by a wide array of evidence - and synchronized by sociocultural factors linked to the Saturday (Hebrews) or Sunday (Christian) holy day of rest. We also hypothesize they are representative, at least in part, of the biological requirement for rest and repair 1 d each 7 d, just as the circadian time structure is representative, in part, of the biological need for rest and repair each 24 h."

In conclusion the seven day cycle of work 6 and off one is endogenous. (internal not external) in nature but can be triggered by non-cyclic events and social norms such as the Sabbath.

It is very interesting that we are made this way. It is also interesting that our Creator rested the seventh day also and we are made in His image and likeness. Couple that with the fact the He blessed and hallowed the 7th day and commanded for us to rest and keep the day holy.

Here is the article again in full

Seven-day human biological rhythms: An expedition in search of their origin, synchronization, functional advantage, adaptive value and clinical relevance - PubMed

This fact-finding expedition explores the perspectives and knowledge of the origin and functional relevance of the 7 d domain of the biological time structure, with special reference to human beings. These biological rhythms are displayed at various levels of organization in diverse species -...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[DamianWarS]

Thesis? lol
Everything after the fall isn't what was intended.

There's no argument here but if we are using the fall to point to areas that humans are not meant to live then we need some sources to back that up outside of blaming it on the fall.

If everything is tarred with the same brush then Antarctica is as ordained to live in as America is, and this forbidden lands argument is lost.

No, faith in and through Christ does. The issue for the world and those whom are not of the faith started in the Garden with these words,
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

this doesn't address the issue that there are regions on the earth that can measure a day differently based on how the sun is observed. The new day starts at sunset (according to the bible) so it is a shifting time, even in the ancient world, but with no sunset the new day is never ushered in.

Saying faith will work it out is also not addressing the issue and is just another way of saying my way is the better way. We both have faith, and I would hope neither one of us are suggesting otherwise, yet come to different conclusions

What you say is nowhere in the article. The article states that "Cosmic cycles are seemingly to weak" In other words the Lunar and other cosmic cycles are too weak.

That it can be explained through lunar activity and the article doesn't even speak of it is concerning indeed. But it is just an abstract so I'm not sure what the full paper says.

"cosmic cycles" (whatever that is) also is not addressing lunar cycles because there are clear observable synchronization with natural life and lunar activity. The author is just using this seemingly made-up terminology of "cosmic cycles" to claim an endogenous source. Again it's just an abstract so you'd have to read the paper to know the details but either way, the conclusions seem to be about identifying patterns, fitting them into 7 days blocks, and then superimposing sabbath over it.

 

[Leaf473]

I'd always heard that a lunar cycle was 28 days. But no...

"A lunar month is about 29.5 days and is the time it takes the Moon to pass through all of the Moon phases. The exact length varies because the orbit of the Moon is an elliptical (or oval) shape."

What Is a Lunar Month?

A lunar month is the time it takes the Moon to pass through all of the Moon phases, usually measured from a New Moon the next New Moon.

www.timeanddate.com

 

[Leaf473]

Here is the article again in full

I was only able to access the abstract.

Clicking on the full text links button took me to here

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07420528.2016.1236807

To read the full article, it wants me to access through my institution or add it to my cart

 

[HIM]

I was only able to access the abstract.

Clicking on the full text links button took me to here

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07420528.2016.1236807

To read the full article, it wants me to access through my institution or add it to my cart

It is a government facility. So the whole Sabbath bias our friend is slinging is ridiculous.

And An abstract is a brief summary of a research article, thesis, review, or any in-depth analysis of a particular subject and is often used to help the reader quickly ascertain the paper's purpose.

You seem smart as does Damian and others here. But most would not be able to understand the actual article anyway. The abstract itself is a little deep.

 

[Leaf473]

It is a government facility. So the whole Sabbath bias our friend is slinging is ridiculous.

Sorry, what is a government facility? The Journal of Biological and Medical Rhythm Research?

And An abstract is a brief summary of a research article, thesis, review, or any in-depth analysis of a particular subject and is often used to help the reader quickly ascertain the paper's purpose.

You seem smart as does Damian and others here. But most would not be able to understand the actual article anyway. The abstract itself is a little deep.

Yes, I agree that's what an abstract is.

But sometimes the full text article will contain information that's useful, especially if one is talking about the finer points of the paper. I've read a paper or two from journals similar to this one. I found I was able to follow along in several cases, depending on the subject matter. And looking up the occasional word.

 

[DamianWarS]

You seem smart as does Damian and others here. But most would not be able to understand the actual article anyway. The abstract itself is a little deep.

I would be interested in reading it to see what their thoughts on lunar activity is since the abstract doesn't address it which concerns me, the closest being "cosmic cycles" which I don't know what they intend by that terminology plus their use is inconsistent with lunar activity.

Also it would seem according to the abstract all they determine is this floating cycle that appears like it loosely follows 7 days. These findings are then used to suggest sabbath influence but it doesn't appear these observed patterns rationally point to sabbath it's just the 7 day-ish theme it's riding off of.

It costs $61 USD and is not an investment I'm ready to commit to yet. Based on the abstract I suspect the paper doesn't address lunar activity well which to me is the most rational answer. Lunar motion is set by God on the 4th day to serve as signs even for sacred days so it by no means is a compromise to see this as lunar activity. There is no mention however of something that points to a 7 day cycle. Based on creation and other biblical accounts the best way to determine the sabbath is simply to keep count of the days and not to rely on internal clocks.