Mariolatry?

[jas3]

There are three individual Persons that make up the Triune God. My last post on this.

And each is fully God in Himself, not "part of God." This is basic trinitarian theology.

 

[RandyPNW]

Let's agree on the clear interpretation that Mary is the mother and Jesus is the child. There's no necessity to search for metaphorical figures; Mary was a real woman, and Jesus was her actual baby.

Let's not agree on looking at this in a false illusory way. Mary did not literally have a crown of 12 stars. This is not a literal woman, in my opinion. She is a metaphorical figure, as indicated by the language and context.

The "woman" is a metaphor for an Eve-like figure, replete with mention of the Serpent and the man-child who, in the Genesis account, defeats him. Mary did no such thing--all emphasis was on the child, Jesus. The 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel. The "woman" is Israel, in my opinion, and the passage is obviously metaphor.

 

[RandyPNW]

I gave numerous examples. You are now saying that all does not mean every individual. You say Jesus is an exception, although the statement does not say so. Let me ask, what sins do accuse newborn babies of committing?

You are very poor at arguing things. Language is not geometric, but a vehicle for conveying information. A word, such as "all," can mean many things. But it is *context* that matters, and the thing that defines what "all" means in a particular instance.

In this case, "all" is not exhaustively referring to Jesus. It's common sense, but you have to use it.

If I say "everyone is getting sick," the context would be determining that "everyone" does not include everyone in all places and in all times. The common sense understanding would be that I'm referring generally to a trend that has become dominant and that *many*--not "all," are getting sick. It *appears* that "all" are getting sick. You are clearly playing with words.

In some cases "all" would be referring, in context, to all of *created* mankind, excluding the Son of God whose body was created but whose divine personality was uncreated. By definition he would be excluded.

But then again, understanding this requires "common sense." And I wish you would use it?

 

[RandyPNW]

Awesome. Glad you agree with my point...

I agree that you are "lost for words."

 

[d taylor]

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A short version of Free Grace teaching on Revelation 12

In Revelation 12

Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

A sign is something that represents something else. The connection between the sun, moon and 12 stars and the nation of Israel is seen in Genesis 37
Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”
So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?”
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Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

The women is Israel the child is The Promised Messiah (Jesus) the labor pains is the grief and sorrow the nation of Israel experienced in The Tanakh at the hands of satan. In his attempt at preventing the birth of The Messiah
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She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Verses 5 and 6: Verse 5 happened 2000+ years ago. Where as verse 6 will happen in the future in the exact middle of the seven year tribulation after the man of sin is reveled 1,260 Days ≈ 3.4497628 Years. The women who fled is believing Jews. these will be the Jews who survive the tribulation and go into the Millennium as God has promised. They go into the wilderness and will be feed by God till the end of the tribulation.

Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
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Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

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So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The water satan (the serpent) spews out are the armies of of the man of sin who sets himself up in the Temple of God declaring himself to be God. They pursue the fleeing believing remnant of Jews, into the wilderness. But God opens up the earth and the earth swallows the armies of the man of sin.

So satan turns his attention to the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Which are the 144,000 Jewish believing men who have been scattered over the earth. Who have been evangelizing the people of earth with the eternal life saving message of belief in Jesus.

 

[Grip Docility]

If you are frightened by words you need to change your business. I used the very words of Scripture.

Not only am I frightened for your gross mishandling of the very Biblical Truth of the Incarnation (IMO), but you absolutely did not even begin to linguistically touch the fabric of one of my favorite passages in scripture.

You said this:

I think the term "Lord" is synonymous with master. Jesus was a form of Deity, no doubt.

First and Foremost, the word LORD as it was used is synonymous with YHWH as it is shown in the Greek, when referenced to Jesus.

In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, the intimate name of God, YHWH, is translated as the Greek word kyrios, which means "lord". This translation was used to respect the fact that the name was considered too holy to pronounce.​

The Septuagint was the first complete Bible that could be utilized by individuals and contained the entire OT, as well as the Deuterocanonical books. The practice of using the Greek word kyrios was carried forward in the NT.

Secondly, you attached the word "A" to the matter. This is the picture of Semi-Arianism, if not full blown Arianism. You go further and attach the word "Deity", which, though "dios" denotes God, can also denote forms and fashions of being Above humanity, but below God. To attach the indefinite article "A" to the matter with "Deity", denotes "a god". I'm seriously not okay with this.

Thirdly, the very word "FORM" as it is used in Philippians 2 is not how you are using it, but is fully a proof to the very usage of the matter being expressed by the people that you are disagreeing with.

The very Greek word used in Philippians 2:6 is MORPHE

morphé: form, shape​

Original Word: μορφή, ῆς, ἡ​

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine​

Transliteration: morphé​

Phonetic Spelling: (mor-fay')​

Definition: form, shape​

Usage: form, shape, outward appearance.​

HELPS Word-studies​

3444 morphḗ – properly, form (outward expression) that embodies essential (inner) substance so that the form is in complete harmony with the inner essence.​

Phil 2.5 Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

It's the same old argument.

You are Semi-Arian in doctrine. In my opinion, you deny that Jesus walked among us as Fully God made Flesh. This is not only epically terrible for all other doctrine, but it is a theological matter that has no business being tossed around as a small matter.

Mary is the mother of Jesus.

She was and IS, as surely as Jesus also declared her the very "Adoptive" mother of the Invisible Body of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is God.

He is Dios. He is the centerpiece of Theology. He is He which saves, while the scriptures only point to HIM. (John 5:39)

So Mary is the mother of God.

This is correct.

You miss the point,

I not only get the point, but am not okay with your insinuation towards our LORD, GOD, SAVIOR, FINISHER OF FAITH, HEAD OF THE BODY, Creator of all that is, He Who has never not been, The Origin of Love, The very Embodiment of Love, Jesus Christ.

or refuse to acknowledge it.

Correct, I am not Semi-Arian and refuse to ever be. I know WHO He Is.

There is a difference between saying Mary is the mother of Jesus and saying Mary is the mother of God.

You are saying that Jesus is not God.

This statement is full blown, lock, stock and barrel in support of the doctrine of Arius. I'm not okay with this. It does bother me.

The difference is if we mean by "Mother of God" that Deity in its infinite form has a "mother." It does not.

The Creator either became one with Creation or He did not. You deny the most sacred biblical truth about the Living Truth by your very words. In My Opinion

Deity has a mother only in its finite form.

Jesus is Infinite. The Word never not was. The Word has ALWAYS BEEN. You don't understand that though the Son died in the flesh, that His Spirit was made Alive in the realm of the Dead by His Father. Even while cut off from His Father, He gave DOMINION of His very SOUL to His Father before He gave up HIS Ghost.

You do not understand that The Holy Spirit of Christ "Descended into the lower parts of the earth". Ephesians 4:9

Though the Son of God laid dead in the Tomb, worm nor rot corrupted the incorruptible. That very Body was Resurrected as INCORRUPTABLE by the Father's Will and through the Same workings of the very Holy Spirit that immaculately bound The Son to the very DNA of Mary in the womb. God the Son, the Son of God now stands at the Right Hand of God, in Heaven, in that Very Incorruptible union of the very DNA of mankind, through Mary, By the Will of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and HE IS THEE Very One True Right Hand of God, Tabernacle of God, Presence of God.

You deny that the Word Became flesh. This is not okay, in my opinion.

But you have a problem with the word "form,"

Opinionated Correction.... You have a problem understanding Philippians 2:6's usage of the word form (morphe)

3444 morphḗ – properly, form (outward expression) that embodies essential (inner) substance so that the form is in complete harmony with the inner essence.

​

and apparently with any Bible translator that translates Philippians 2 as such?

We are not the same on this matter.

Read my words carefully. GOD Became FLESH. The Trinity is INDIVISIBLE. There is ONLY ONE GOD. I am not Arian, Semi-Arian, Modalist nor Tri-Theist. I am a Triunitarian for the very TRUTH about the Living, Breathing TRUTH that Our God is UTTERLY UNE, yet These Three Testify.

 

[Grip Docility]

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​

A short version of Free Grace teaching on Revelation 12

In Revelation 12

Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

A sign is something that represents something else. The connection between the sun, moon and 12 stars and the nation of Israel is seen in Genesis 37
Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”
So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?”
------

Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

The women is Israel the child is The Promised Messiah (Jesus) the labor pains is the grief and sorrow the nation of Israel experienced in The Tanakh at the hands of satan. In his attempt at preventing the birth of The Messiah
------

She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Verses 5 and 6: Verse 5 happened 2000+ years ago. Where as verse 6 will happen in the future in the exact middle of the seven year tribulation after the man of sin is reveled 1,260 Days ≈ 3.4497628 Years. The women who fled is believing Jews. these will be the Jews who survive the tribulation and go into the Millennium as God has promised. They go into the wilderness and will be feed by God till the end of the tribulation.

Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
------
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

------

So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The water satan (the serpent) spews out are the armies of of the man of sin who sets himself up in the Temple of God declaring himself to be God. They pursue the fleeing believing remnant of Jews, into the wilderness. But God opens up the earth and the earth swallows the armies of the man of sin.

So satan turns his attention to the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Which are the 144,000 Jewish believing men who have been scattered over the earth. Who have been evangelizing the people of earth with the eternal life saving message of belief in Jesus.

D Taylor,

I always enjoy dialogue with you.

"She bore a male child" - Who is the male child, in your opinion?

 

[d taylor]

D Taylor,

I always enjoy dialogue with you.

"She bore a male child" - Who is the male child, in your opinion?

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Jesus

 

[Grip Docility]

Let's not agree on looking at this in a false illusory way. Mary did not literally have a crown of 12 stars. This is not a literal woman, in my opinion. She is a metaphorical figure, as indicated by the language and context.

The "woman" is a metaphor for an Eve-like figure, replete with mention of the Serpent and the man-child who, in the Genesis account, defeats him. Mary did no such thing--all emphasis was on the child, Jesus. The 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel. The "woman" is Israel, in my opinion, and the passage is obviously metaphor.

@Xeno.of.athens stated that the Child is Jesus, thus, even if you focus on Israel, that the Child's mother is clearly Mary.

Do you deny that simple truth within scripture?

 

[Grip Docility]

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Jesus

Is Jesus God?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The difference is if we mean by "Mother of God" that Deity in its infinite form has a "mother." It does not.

Such a divine and beautiful mystery. Yes, that infinite, timeless, unborn, uncreated God took human flesh born of a woman.

How can a woman give birth to someone who is without beginning? We are speaking in two time realms. The first is some divine kairotic time which is actually timeless and beyond our ability to conceptualize. It is eternal. But then, The Son enters into our chronic time. The eternal becomes a being in time and place. Mary becomes Mother of the Eternal in human time, Mother of the Infinite in human flash, and yes, Mother of God here on Earth.

 

[d taylor]

Is Jesus God?

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Jesus is God the Son

 

[Grip Docility]

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Jesus is God the Son

Is the Trinity Divisible?

 

[d taylor]

Is the Trinity Divisible?

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Was God the Father on earth or in heaven, when Jesus was on earth. Did Jesus do His miracles on His own power or by the power of The Spirit of God.

 

[Grip Docility]

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Was God the Father on earth or in heaven, when Jesus was on earth. Did Jesus do His miracles on His own power or by the power of The Spirit of God.

Yes. I won't insult you by continuing the line of questioning without giving scripture.

When Jesus says that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him, He is saying that the same God the Holy Spirit that is in the Father is the Same God the Holy Spirit that is in Him.

Now, take this verse into consideration;

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

This verse is about Jesus.​

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Do you agree with it?

 

[d taylor]

Yes. I won't insult you by continuing the line of questioning without giving scripture.

When Jesus says that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him, He is saying that the same God the Holy Spirit that is in the Father is the Same God the Holy Spirit that is in Him.

Now, take this verse into consideration;

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

This verse is about Jesus.​

​

Do you agree with it?

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2:9 is simply saying that because God The Son took on human flesh, He The Son is no less a part of The Godhead than The Spirit or The Father.

In God The Son is as the exact fullness that people believe is in God the Father or God The Spirit.

 

[Grip Docility]

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2:9 is simply saying that because God The Son took on human flesh, He The Son is no less a part of The Godhead than The Spirit or The Father.

In God The Son is as the exact fullness that people believe is in God the Father or God The Spirit.

Now that you have fully and adeptly confessed that God became Sarx for the Loving sake of mankind, I am at peace. I don't know if you suspected a set up for a gotcha in this reference to the discussed OP, but it ain't happening.

On this matter, my dear sibling in Jesus, we fully agree and that makes my Soul leap with Joy!

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, D Taylor, my sibling in Jesus Christ

 

[d taylor]

Now that you have fully and adeptly confessed that God became Sarx for the Loving sake of mankind, I am at peace. I don't know if you suspected a set up for a gotcha in this reference to the discussed OP, but it ain't happening.

On this matter, my dear sibling in Jesus, we fully agree and that makes my Soul leap with Joy!

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, D Taylor, my sibling in Jesus Christ

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I am not sure how you have been reading my post, but i never said that God The Son never became man. If that is what you in the past took away from my post, then you were reading and understanding wrong.

But i will say God the Father did not become man or God the Holy Spirit only God The Son became flesh.

 

[Grip Docility]

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I am not sure how you have been reading my post, but i never said that God The Son never became man. If that is what you in the past took away from my post, then you were reading and understanding wrong.

But i will say God the Father did not become man or God the Holy Spirit only God The Son became flesh.

• The Word in John 1 is a reference to the Pre-Incarnate Theophany we see in the OT. I don't have to ask. I know you know this.
• The Word has never not been. This is again something that I don't have to ask you.
• The Word, indeed became Sarx (Flesh) per John 1. I know you yield to scripture, thus, again, I don't have to ask you this.

You confessed the following:

Colossians 2:9 is simply saying that because God The Son took on human flesh, He The Son is no less a part of The Godhead than The Spirit or The Father.

In God The Son is as the exact fullness that people believe is in God the Father or God The Spirit.​

Therefore, you are confessing that the fulness of the God Head became Flesh, Bodily, through God the Son, by Will of His Father in Heaven, God the Son's Will and the Will of God the Holy Spirit, through the working of the Holy Spirit.

Are you not?

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

 

[d taylor]

• The Word in John 1 is a reference to the Pre-Incarnate Theophany we see in the OT. I don't have to ask. I know you know this.
• The Word has never not been. This is again something that I don't have to ask you.
• The Word, indeed became Sarx (Flesh) per John 1. I know you yield to scripture, thus, again, I don't have to ask you this.

You confessed the following:



Therefore, you are confessing that the fulness of the God Head became Flesh, Bodily, through God the Son, by Will of His Father in Heaven, God the Son's Will and the Will of God the Holy Spirit, through the working of the Holy Spirit.

Are you not?

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

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Ok i have replied to your questions.

Now do you hold to the Oneness view that, Jesus is the Father and the Spirit and the Son!