VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Oseas]

Be careful or else get ready

Be prepared and be watchful.
But practically every Christian has no clue about Gods Plans for our future.

But what are you doing here, except to post your own prophetic speculations from foolish imaginations?

Or a wakadoodle and fanciful idea, that has nothing to do with the Prophetic Word.

It is exactly what have been posted by you here in your discussions, and elsewhere for sure, i.e. a wakadoodle and fanciful ideas.

So; what will soon happen, will be a shock to everyone and that is how the Lord wants it to be and many will fall from lack of faith.

Not my Lord JESUS, but YOU want it to be according your "wakadoodle and fanciful ideas, that has nothing to do with the Prophetic Word" of GOD.
Have you never read? Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand?

Please cease posting large amounts of scripture. You are only clogging up the threads.

Your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumblingblock, not from GOD's perspective.
What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, understand?
My Lord JESUS said: ->John 8:47 -> He that is of GOD heareth GOD's words: but ye hear them not because ye are not of GOD.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand?

I understand that when anyone claims they adhere to the Word of God and then says certain statements of God through the prophets in the O.T. were not of God, that position would be rightfully considered heresy.

It's a similar conundrum that exists in determinist camps where they claim "God is Sovereign" and then proceed to define what that is and consists of, which doesn't compute. Just as your positions don't compute. You may think they do, but they don't stack up to what God's Direct Words actually claim.

For example, we can look at the N.T. Words of God where Jesus said where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to steal it. And then watch all the blindness and denial happen by the readers, claiming various types of personal exemptions. It's actually demonic activity in the reader, proving the fact of Mark 4:15, and not even seeing it.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I have constantly and consistently shown how all of your so called 'rapture' proofs, are wrong. None of them say such a thing and for you to have to keep on bringing up the same verses, just shows how fixated and locked into falsehoods you are.
You are a prime example of the deceived, Matthew 24:4, and of those who believe fables; 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Be prepared and be watchful.
But practically every Christian has no clue about Gods Plans for our future. Or a wakadoodle and fanciful idea, that has nothing to do with the Prophetic Word.
So; what will soon happen, will be a shock to everyone and that is how the Lord wants it to be and many will fall from lack of faith.

Please cease posting large amounts of scripture. You are only clogging up the threads.

Mr. Keras, what Jesus said in Rev 3:10 (“I will keep you from the hour of trial”) is what you haven’t refuted as pertaining to Daniel’s 70th week, the 7-year Trib.

The “hour of trial” is God’s wrath expressed in 21 judgments over seven years. Your claim of seals 1 - 5 already being open is unbiblical because it violates the 7-year timeframe for the entire Trib.

The quote above from Jesus means one thing: we believers will be kept from the Trib, meaning we will never enter it.

The most detailed proof of the inhabitants of Earth, during the Trib, being only unbelievers is in Rev 6:15-17. “Everyone” on earth is gathered. They supremely manifest their focus is exclusively on the world by running in terror from an alleged sighting of Jesus. They all run into caves or hide under rocks, in complete terror of an alleged sighting of Jesus. That’s “everyone,” Keras. There isn’t one believer on Earth at that time. The biblical proof of that within Rev 6:15-17 is irrefutable. No verse you cite can refute it. You keep citing verses of new converts in the Trib. What do you think the 144k do in the Trib? How is it there is a saved multitude from the Trib, too great to count in Rev 7:9?

In the 2nd seal, Rev 6:4 (ESV): And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword. ----- Keras, “so that people should slay on another” is about unbelievers. There is no way a new convert would engage in reckless murder as each new convert will know that would violate the 5th Commandment. The 2nd seal therefore adds to the proof that no believers enter the Trib because the 2nd seal is broken at the start of the Trib.

So where, then, do we believers go? Rev 4:1. Apostle John never left Patmos during his vision of the revelation of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Rev 4:1 is the future pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

You haven't refuted a thing I have posted. You just respond with empty criticism. Your verses are either out-of-context or completely unrelated.

 

[keras]

Mr. Keras, what Jesus said in Rev 3:10 (“I will keep you from the hour of trial”) is what you haven’t refuted as pertaining to Daniel’s 70th week, the 7-year Trib.

The “hour of trial” is God’s wrath expressed in 21 judgments over seven years. Your claim of seals 1 - 5 already being open is unbiblical because it violates the 7-year timeframe for the entire Trib.

The quote above from Jesus means one thing: we believers will be kept from the Trib, meaning we will never enter it.

The most detailed proof of the inhabitants of Earth, during the Trib, being only unbelievers is in Rev 6:15-17. “Everyone” on earth is gathered. They supremely manifest their focus is exclusively on the world by running in terror from an alleged sighting of Jesus. They all run into caves or hide under rocks, in complete terror of an alleged sighting of Jesus. That’s “everyone,” Keras. There isn’t one believer on Earth at that time. The biblical proof of that within Rev 6:15-17 is irrefutable. No verse you cite can refute it. You keep citing verses of new converts in the Trib. What do you think the 144k do in the Trib? How is it there is a saved multitude from the Trib, too great to count in Rev 7:9?

In the 2nd seal, Rev 6:4 (ESV): And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword. ----- Keras, “so that people should slay on another” is about unbelievers. There is no way a new convert would engage in reckless murder as each new convert will know that would violate the 5th Commandment. The 2nd seal therefore adds to the proof that no believers enter the Trib because the 2nd seal is broken at the start of the Trib.

So where, then, do we believers go? Rev 4:1. Apostle John never left Patmos during his vision of the revelation of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Rev 4:1 is the future pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

You haven't refuted a thing I have posted. You just respond with empty criticism. Your verses are either out-of-context or completely unrelated.

All the above is repetitive nonsense.
As you cannot provide any scripture which says the Lord will take His people to heaven, then all your attempts to make other verses fit that scenario, are worthless.

What really refutes the false rapture to heaven theory, is Revelation 12:14, where the Lords faithful people are taken to a place of safety for the 1260 days of world satanic control. NOT to heaven, but a place on earth, far away from where the Great Tribulation will happen.
THEY will be the people who the angels will gather to Jesus, at His Return. Matthew 24:30-31

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

All the above is repetitive nonsense.
As you cannot provide any scripture which says the Lord will take His people to heaven, then all your attempts to make other verses fit that scenario, are worthless.

What really refutes the false rapture to heaven theory, is Revelation 12:14, where the Lords faithful people are taken to a place of safety for the 1260 days of world satanic control. NOT to heaven, but a place on earth, far away from where the Great Tribulation will happen.
THEY will be the people who the angels will gather to Jesus, at His Return. Matthew 24:30-31

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church straight TO HEAVEN. It works in conjunction with 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52. Those are biblical FACTS.

You are ignoring the biblical proof that no believers will enter the Trib. How can they with Jesus promising to keep us from the Trib? When will you acknowledge the true meaning of Jesus' promise in Rev 3:10? Can you admit you're wrong?

Rev 12:14 aligns with Matt 24:16 (ESV): then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ----- There's no proof they are killed by Satan.

Rev 12:17 is about new converts being martyred: Rev 12:17 (NIV): Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. ----- Those are certified new converts that become martyrs who complete "the number" of "fellow servants" (Rev 6:11) for the GM in Rev 20:4. They are later found in Rev 7:9-17, in Heaven.

 

[keras]

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church straight TO HEAVEN. It works in conjunction with 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52. Those are biblical FACTS.

The glaring fact is; that Jeffrey Bowden adds to scripture to fit in his false beliefs.
You are confused and deceived and the more you make wrong assertions, the worse it is for you.

You have served a good purpose, however; as even those who did believe in the 'rapture to heaven', will now be reconsidering that idea, as it is quite evident there is no Biblical support for that theory.

 

[Oseas]

I understand that when anyone claims they adhere to the Word of God and then says certain statements of God through the prophets in the O.T. were not of God, that position would be rightfully considered heresy.

It's a similar conundrum that exists in determinist camps where they claim "God is Sovereign" and then proceed to define what that is and consists of, which doesn't compute. Just as your positions don't compute. You may think they do, but they don't stack up to what God's Direct Words actually claim.

For example, we can look at the N.T. Words of God where Jesus said where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to steal it. And then watch all the blindness and denial happen by the readers, claiming various types of personal exemptions. It's actually demonic activity in the reader, proving the fact of Mark 4:15, and not even seeing it.

The Word is GOD, understand? GOD Himself, self-executing. By the way, around 2000 years ago He Himself was made flesh, understand? And He manifested Himself among men by the name He chose for He Himself-JESUS.And JESUS, the Word made flesh, said to the Devil: Matthew 4:4-> Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the MOUTH of GOD. All Word that proceded out of the MOUTH of GOD is written in the Holy Scripture, the Bible, understand?

By the content of your post, I don't see any difference beteween your interpretation of the Word of GOD and how the man of sin also interpreted it-Genesis 3:1.
Well, if any man defile the temple of GOD, him shall GOD destroy; 1 Cor. 3:17, understand?

 

[Larry H.]

Wow! At last some feedback. I have persisted in this discussion because I know there are many who read these threads, But very few comment, because as I see it; they are torn between what they have been taught and believe and what I present which refutes the 'rapture' theory.

Your question is answered by scripture:
Daniel 7:25......Gods holy peoples are present when the Anti-Christ 'beast' has world control.
Revelation 13:5-7 confirms it.

Revelation 12:14 tells us exactly what the Lord will do for His faithful peoples at that time. Taken to a safe place on earth.
Revelation 12:17 also refers to Christian peoples. They will be the 'many' referred to in Daniel 9:27 and by their agreement to a 7 year peace treaty with the AC, they will have violated the Covenant between the Lord and the Christians. Daniel 11:32
They must remain under the control of the AC and if they do keep their faith in Jesus, they are most likely to have their heads chopped off. But their death as martyrs, means that Jesus will resurrect them at His glorious Return. Revelation 20:4

You do seem confused about the final 7 years of the age, The first half will be peaceful, so it is not mentioned in Revelation. Only the second half; of the 1260 days, or the 42 months, or the 3 1/2 years are Prophesied and described in Revelation.
Jesus will Return at the exact completion of the 7 years, commencing with the signing of that peace treaty. Daniel 9:27 The additional days; Daniel 12:11-12, come after the Return, as the fulfilment of appointed Days; Atonement and Hamakua.

Good evening Keras, God's word states that iron sharpens iron. I'm still a WIP and I'm always looking for iron to sharpen my dull points as well as pray God will allow me to be iron to sharpen someone else's. First let me assure you that I am not taught by man. As odd as it may sound, many years ago at the time of reaching the bottom of my barrel and accepted Christ as the full authority over my life, I had no idea what a Commentary was and had no idea what Seminary meant and to that point believed that the story of Jesus was just a good parable. Then one night, after the turn of events, all I knew was God had clearly spoke to my heart, to study His Word and find the truth. It never even crossed my mind to go to school to get it or be taught by a man or even study another man's work. Sadly it hinders your voice in the Christian world but I guess that's one thing years of a failed Father/Son relationship will do to a young man, @impart in him that he can't trust man. I'm sure what my first Pastor of 20 years repeatedly said added to that, which was " Don't take my word for it, study it for yourself". Bottom line though was I "knew" what God had spoken to my heart to do and the rules He had led me to. I first found there was one man that I could trust my eternal life to but He died 2000 years before I was born. Thankfully I found He left me access to His teaching. 3 of those rules that God led me to that I still hold at the highest authority when searching for His truth are; *Be a "Workman" at studying God's Word to be approved by God and to understand His Word. *Do not read many of man's books which hinders the soul. *The Holy Spirit will teach me in all things. *There is a way that will seem right to me but the end is death. (scriptures available if needed)
That said; You are surely on a great path @finding the depths and mysteries of God's word. Though if said I would have to agree to the vagueness of, at what point revelation begins referencing the first 3 1/2 years. However, if I understand you correctly, which I make a mess of sometimes, I respectably find it very interesting that you believe that Revelation does not mention the first 3 1/2 years at all, and I hope to find the time to ask you view on specific scriptures. I am short on time tonight, but I will add, Revelations specifically speaks of the raise of the false prophets and antichrist, It even mention the death and rising of him which would seem the mark the midpoint of the 7 years. I can't see how all this would fit in the last 3 1/2 years Also, In the book of Genesis, God gave warning of His wrath that he was going to bring on Egypt. As those warnings progressed, the severity of his plages progressed, with the last being an undisputable wrath of God. In the book of Revelations, the same nature of God seems to be revealed. The "warnings" to the churches with no actions, then the "actions" of the seals, which was worse than the warnings. Then He poured out his undisputable bowls of wrath, which was worse than the actions in the seals. This seems to be a very broad window of prophetic events not to include the first 3 1/2 years @ mere warnings to total destruction. Also, within each of the 7's I seem to see the same nature of God take place @THE last worse than the first. I also see this as God's display of mercy, grace and love for man as a father. Just as we would a son, 1st a warning, then an action to assure his attention, then an action that will undisputably turn his attention, giving every possible option before prison of death. Clearly we see in Rev. God will give man every possible option for him to correct his actions before the second death. Hope you see why it is hard for me to grasp that there are no attributes of the first 3 1/2 years in The Book of Revelation. Hope the speech typer did OK, I was pressed for time, God bless

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The glaring fact is; that Jeffrey Bowden adds to scripture to fit in his false beliefs.
You are confused and deceived and the more you make wrong assertions, the worse it is for you.

You have served a good purpose, however; as even those who did believe in the 'rapture to heaven', will now be reconsidering that idea, as it is quite evident there is no Biblical support for that theory.

Keras, you criticize when you can’t refute.

I can take the criticism. Please answer these questions:

1. True or false? Jesus said in Rev 3:10 that “you” (believers) will be kept from the hour of trial (7-year Trib);

2. True or false? John never left Patmos during his vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ;

3. True or false? Rev 4:1 is entirely in the future as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

 

[Larry H.]

Howdy, Larry. I'm not wanting to argue, as well. I like civil discussions. We should all exhibit a heart of love, all the time.

Here's Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Please note that there are two groups delineated. "You" are believers. "Those" are whom that will dwell on the earth after the pre-Trib rapture. If you examine other uses of the phrase "those who dwell on the earth," in the context of the Trib, they always refer to unbelievers. We see first mention, in the Trib, at Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Clearly, those who dwell on the earth are unbelievers, in this case they are murderous unbelievers.

Those crying out in Rev 6:10 are the first martyrs who become the first group of the GM (the "great multitude" cited in Rev 7:9). Rev 6:11 speaks of a second group ("fellow servants") that must also be killed as was the first group. That second group is found in Rev 20:4. All of the martyrs in the Trib are new converts by way of the ministries of the 144k (Rev 7:4), and later by the ministry of the 2W (Two Witnesses) cited in Rev 11:3.

To further prove that there are no believers who enter the Trib, "everyone" on the planet gathers for the 6th seal in Rev 6:15-17. All those folks overreact to an alleged sighting of Jesus, and they run in terror to hide in caves and under rocks. Let me ask you: If you were near Jesus in that same environment, would you feel terrorized? Of course not. You would run to Him, instead of running away. Well, "everyone" on the planet is at that 6th seal, and they all exhibit behavior that only smacks of unbelievers. Those verses are concrete proof that no believers are on the planet. That doesn't mean more new converts won't occur. But, as of the 6th seal, "everyone" on the planet is demonstrably an unbeliever.

What Jesus clearly means by His words in Rev 3:10, "I will keep you from the hour of trial," can only be that we believers will not enter the Trib. The greatest proof is in Rev 6:15-17.

There are books in the Bible that don't apply to their position in the Bible. Rev 7 is a good example. There's reason to believer that the 144k are active very early in the Trib, as many new converts come from seals 2 and 4. It is those new converts, as martyrs, who are crying out in Rev 6:10. So, Rev 7 is definitely out of sequence in terms of its position. To further prove this, Rev 7:14 (ESV) says, in part, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ---- Rev 7's 144k are active in the Trib in seals 2 and 4, and later in the GT (Great Tribulation). So, they cover at least four-to-five years of the Trib. Therefore, Rev 7 is what is referred to as, "an interlude." That means it's injected into Scripture, but where it's injected, it doesn't only apply there, but earlier and/or later in the Bible. There are other chapters and sections of chapters that are out-of-sequence, as well. It takes quite a grasp of Scripture to recognize them and go with them, accordingly. I'm not claiming to be at that level. I am blessed with two friends that are extremely well-versed in these matters, as both are true Bible scholars, including knowing the Greek writings of Scripture.

When it comes the AC (antichrist), I have only scratched the surface. I therefore can't answer your related questions. I do know this, that the prior history of the antichrist is covered in the book of Daniel.

Hello again, You offer "great" speculation on 3:10 and 6:10 as well as 6:15-17 that could be very convincing to the young at heart, but I was mainly looking more for support scriptures. Thanks just the same. I'm short on time tonight but I did want to say a couple of things. I'm aware that with the book of Daniel, in order to "follow" that book you have to read chapters 1 to 4, then 7 and 8, then 5 and 6, then 9 to 12. However, I have never had enough heartburn with it to take the time to research that to see why. My assumption is, maybe Daniel had writers writing it for him and that is the order it was delivered back to him. Bottom line is "I don't know. why"? Looking at what you believe, I do see where removing Chapter 7 would more align with your beliefs, especially with it still placing members of all 12 tribes of Israel on earth. However, I seem to find it hard to see 7 in the wrong place because it seems Chapter 7 is clearly a prelude to the 6th seal that's introducing the wrath of God coming and even seems to touch on those that have followed the evil system and depended on the evil system for their status and riches once the wrath coming is seen. It also seemed to be an introduction to the 7th seal (chap. 8), that beings the end of the warnings with actions and the blowing of the 7 Trumpets that begins the wrath of God's judgement setting the stage for Jesus taking His position on the throne. Back to Daniel, I did end up reading Daniel a couple of times and scratching my head before realizing the chapter mystery. However, once I realized the chapters were out of order, it was like a light came on and very simple to see the order they went in. Once in order reading Daniel was a pleasant flow. That said, in the short time I have tonight, I would like to ask at least one question? With your position as Chapter 7 being out of order, where do you see that it goes? BTW I hope the speech typer didn't do to bad but I was pressed for time, thank you and God bless

 

[keras]

I respectably find it very interesting that you believe that Revelation does not mention the first 3 1/2 years at all, and I hope to find the time to ask you view on specific scriptures.

Please look at my website - logostelos.info for my views on the Prophetic Word.
Issues like the final 7 years of this age, are best discussed on separate threads or by private emails.

 

[keras]

Keras, you criticize when you can’t refute.

I stated a fact: You knowingly and blatantly add to scripture to suit your beliefs.

1. True or false? Jesus said in Rev 3:10 that “you” (believers) will be kept from the hour of trial (7-year Trib);

Jesus will do that, by protecting His people as they pass safely thru it. There is no 7 year Trib, the fiery trial will be the one Day of the Sixth Seal.

2. True or false? John never left Patmos during his vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ;

John was taken to heaven in the Spirit, to be shown what will happen. His body remained on Patmos.

3. True or false? Rev 4:1 is entirely in the future as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

Rev 4:1 is fulfilled and to construe a 'rapture' out of it is serious error

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I stated a fact: You knowingly and blatantly add to scripture to suit your beliefs.

Jesus will do that, by protecting His people as they pass safely thru it. There is no 7 year Trib, the fiery trial will be the one Day of the Sixth Seal.

John was taken to heaven in the Spirit, to be shown what will happen. His body remained on Patmos.

Rev 4:1 is fulfilled and to construe a 'rapture' out of it is serious error

Keras, you are the one who is revising Scripture. In Rev 3:10, being "kept from" means not being any part of something. To not be any part of the Trib means we never enter it.

The Trib is solely intended for those who live for the world; referred to in Rev 3:10 as "those who dwell on the earth." You are still not delineating between "you" (the believers cited in Rev 3:10) and "those who dwell on the earth" (the unbelievers cited in Rev 3:10). You can't make "you" and "those" the same group in Rev 3:10, per how it's written. To say they are the same group is revising that verse.

Daniel 9:27 (NIV): He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ---- That is proof that the Trib, Daniel's 70th week, is seven years long. "In the middle of the 'seven' he (the AC) will .... set up an abomination that causes desolation ..." That is Matt 24:15, otherwise known as the midpoint of the 7-year Trib. You even cite the "2nd half" of the Trib by referring to the GT. The GT is how long? It's about 3.5 years in length of time, otherwise known as 1260 days. That is only the 2nd half of the 7-year Trib.

The 6th seal is about spectacular lunar, solar and geographical phenomena which terrorizes "everyone" who dwells on the earth." They behave as only unbelievers would behave by running in terror to hide from an alleged sighting of Jesus. Keras, you have to revise the 6th seal to say believers have any part in that. The "firery trial" you love to quote (1 Peter 4:12) is about persecution from spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 4 is all about the daily trials of spreading the Gospel. 1 Peter 4 has nothing to do with the Trib.

There's nothing more to the 6th seal than what you see in Rev 6:12-17. All the descriptions of the phenomena are in the past tense. The point is how foolishly everyone behaves. They run in terror from an alleged sighting of Jesus. Dude, that is the exact behavior only of unbelievers.

All your attempts to prove that believers enter the Trib are, in every case, new converts because they are "the saints" in the Trib. All of the new converts are martyred, and they become the GM, which, in my opinion, numbers no less than 100 million. There are so many new converts they can't even be counted in Rev 7:9.

You are revising Rev 4:1. You need to consult Rev 1:10 (ESV): I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet ... ----- When John was "in the spirit" in Rev 1:10 he was on Patmos, hearing a voice behind him. Rev 4:1-2 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. ----- In Rev 1:10, John was "in the spirit" and heard something. In Rev 4:1, he was "in the spirit" and saw something. There is no proof he left Patmos in either case of being "in the spirit" because he didn't leave Patmos all during his vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Word is GOD, understand? GOD Himself, self-executing. By the way, around 2000 years ago He Himself was made flesh, understand? And He manifested Himself among men by the name He chose for He Himself-JESUS.And JESUS, the Word made flesh, said to the Devil: Matthew 4:4-> Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the MOUTH of GOD. All Word that proceded out of the MOUTH of GOD is written in the Holy Scripture, the Bible, understand?

By the content of your post, I don't see any difference beteween your interpretation of the Word of GOD and how the man of sin also interpreted it-Genesis 3:1.
Well, if any man defile the temple of GOD, him shall GOD destroy; 1 Cor. 3:17, understand?

I've made this observation with you a few times now. No one other than Jesus is sinless. All in fact "have sin" as a present tense-in the here and now condition. All of us. Romans 3:9

And sin is also in fact "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

All of us engage the tempter internally, whether we know it, perceive it, or not.

Just because you say, "The Word is God. God Himself, self executing," does absolutely nothing for you to differentiate yourself from any other sinner. You might think it does. But I might think it's simply demonic expression trying vainly to get off the hook for being a sinner

 

[keras]

And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

You just burble a load of nonsense and twist scripture to suit your false beliefs. John did go up to heaven.

The only way for you to understand Bible Prophecy, is to renounce the false teachings you believe in. Esp; the rapture to heaven.
Otherwise, what will happen will surprise and shock you.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You just burble a load of nonsense and twist scripture to suit your false beliefs. John did go up to heaven.

The only way for you to understand Bible Prophecy, is to renounce the false teachings you believe in. Esp; the rapture to heaven.
Otherwise, what will happen will surprise and shock you.

No, he didn't. You are revising Rev 4:1. John was "in the spirit" and "heard" in Rev 1:10. Did he hear that in Heaven? In Rev 4:1, John was "in the spirit" and ONLY "saw." Where does it say he went up to Heaven? To have him see, relates wholly and only to his vision, which John experienced completely while on Patmos. To further prove that, Rev 1:1 (NIV): ... He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, ... ----- There is NEVER a mention of John going into Heaven. The angel sent to John presented EVERYTHING to John in a vision. More proof: Rev 1:9: I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos ----- He is stated to have been on Patmos, and there is never a statement to him leaving Patmos during his vision.

Here's more proof about how John's time on Patmos was spent related 100% to his vision. Rev 22:6–8 (NIV): The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.” 7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.” 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.

Keras, Rev 4:1 is entirely in the future. It fulfills 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52, as well as Acts 1:11. Jesus' next return is only for the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, directly to Heaven.

 

[keras]

No, he didn't.

Your own quote of Rev 4:1, proves you wrong; the voice said "Come up here"......

A rapture to heaven cannot be found in any of the Bible. It is a false teaching which contradicts many verses saying we must endure all that will happen until Jesus Returns.
There will be no escape from the time of testing.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your own quote of Rev 4:1, proves you wrong; the voice said "Come up here"......

A rapture to heaven cannot be found in any of the Bible. It is a false teaching which contradicts many verses saying we must endure all that will happen until Jesus Returns.
There will be no escape from the time of testing.

You continue to revise Rev 4:1 with falsehoods.

All of Rev was heard and saw by John to record in writing. All of Rev was shown by the angel sent to John. This is also true of Rev 4:1 by what John said in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, ...

John was on Patmos the whole time. He heard and was shown all of Rev by the angel who was sent to him. It was heard, as well as seen by John only in his vision. His own words about how he learned it, prove it.

You're forgetting what 1 Th 4:16 (ESV) says: For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The command we will hear is, "Come up here!" per Rev 4:1.

 

[keras]

The command we will hear is, "Come up here!" per Rev 4:1.

You are a dreamer, a deceived person, who has allowed non Biblical theories to become your belief system.
Because you and many have chosen to believe falsehoods, the Lord has locked you into them - Ephesians 4:18, Isaiah 29:9-12

 

[Oseas]

I've made this observation with you a few times now. No one other than Jesus is sinless. All in fact "have sin" as a present tense-in the here and now condition. All of us. Romans 3:9

And sin is also in fact "of the devil," 1John 3:8, Mark 4:15

All of us engage the tempter internally, whether we know it, perceive it, or not.

Just because you say, "The Word is God. God Himself, self executing," does absolutely nothing for you to differentiate yourself from any other sinner. You might think it does. But I might think it's simply demonic expression trying vainly to get off the hook for being a sinner

Have you never read?1John 5:4-7 & 18-20
4Whatsoever is born of GOD overcometh the world:and this is the victory that overcometh the world,even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world,but he that believeth that JESUS is the Son of GOD?

6JESUS is He that came by water and blood,even JESUS Christ;not by water only,but by water(John 7:38-39;8:51and11:26),
and blood-understand?(Philippians 2:7-11).
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,because the Spirit is Truth.
GOD,the Word,is Spirit-John 6:63.The Word is GOD,GOD Himself, self-executing,understand?

7There are three that testify in heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-8),the Father-GOD the Father- ,the Word-the Word made flesh-JESUS- ,and the Holy Spirit(who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a person-the Paraclete,the Comfort):and these three are One.


18We-the TRUE believers- know that whosoever is born of GOD sinneth not;but he that is begotten of GOD keepeth himself,and that wicked one toucheth him not.

19And we know that we are of GOD-understand?- ,and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

20And we know that the Son of GOD is come,and hath given us an understanding,that we may know Him that is true,and we are in Him that is true,even in His Son Jesus Christ.This is the true GOD,and eternal life.

Hebrews 1:1-3
1GOD,who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,whom He hath appointed heir of all things,by whom also He made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of His glory,and the EXPRESS IMAGE(WORD MADE FLESH)of the Person of GOD,and upholding all things by the Word of His power,when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Re.11:15-18 & 1Corinthians 15:24-27
15...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
18And the NATIONS will be angry, and GOD's WRATH is come...

Get ready