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Flat or round earth -The final experiment.

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The Liturgist

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You believe in science and that science is speaking truths.

Science is merely the acquisition of knowledge. It doesn’t say anything. No good scientist would accept a theory without any kind or experimental or empirical validation, just as no good mathematician would accept the answer to a problem without seeing formal proof.

Oh, as an interesting aside, the field of theology has always been treated as a science rather than as philosophy. Scholars of theology work with the data of revelation, such as sacred scripture. In Orthodoxy however we also say that one who prays is a theologian, and a theologian is one who prays; for us, theology in its fullest form is experiential knowledge of God.
 
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The Liturgist

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There is a distinction made between people like an astronaut who has told the world they went to the moon.

Forget about astronauts for a moment. You keep trying to shift the conversation there, but this thread is not about NASA but about whether or not the world is flat, as you claim in your signature, or round.

I have presented evidence, in the form of airline schedules, that would be impossible if the world were flat. Flat earthers have, for several years, claimed that the absence of direct flights between all of the populous southern continents, that is to say, those with cities (Africa, South America and Australia or New Zealand) proved that the world was flat, and for a brief period of time, due to Covid, it was the case that only connecting services operated by airlines such as Emirates or Singapore Airlines that involved changing planes north of the Equator were available. This naturally was dreadful for the people of those continents, but Covid was dreadful in general, or at least, the way it was handled.

However since then, travel restrictions were lifted and these flights have resumed.

There is also the very important point that in the Southern Hemisphere, because it is a hemisphere, the Great Circle Route which offers the shortest path between any two points is reversed compared to the North.

In insisting on a flat Earth, you are calling many more people than just NASA astronauts liars. Basically the entire maritime shipping industry and the entire aerospace industry including all airlines and all manufacturers or designers of aircraft and aircraft systems, particularly avionics, as well as terrestrial navigation beacons, radio manufacturers (since short wave radio relies on the curvature of the Earth for propagation), airport lighting contractors, air traffic controllers and enthusiasts of both ships and aviation, civil engineers designing roadways and pipelines, and also virtually all aircraft pilots and all navigators of ocean-going vessels.

And you also say you haven’t flown in an aircraft. The surface of the Earth even from 39,000 feet looks different and has been enough to convince me of the round Earth.

It is the Flat Earth conspiracy theory that is the more offensive and untenable; I can understand, on some level, why some people might find the idea of space flight bewildering, but in the case of Flat Earth conspiracy theories, these pose an actual danger because knowledge of the actual shape of the Earth is essential towards safe long distance travel.

And also likewise, the Flat Earth idea is much easier to exclude from the realm of possibility because of the restoration of non-stop airline flights between the Southern cities, which breaks the model of the world that you advocate.

Now this all being said, I still find the claims against all space travel absurd and offensive, particularly to families of astronauts, cosmonauts and test pilots who have perished in space or on the ground in training or conducting research. And the claims against travel to the moon, for example, the idea that Stanley Kubrick faked it, are also preposterous, and appear to have resulted from people taking the science fiction thriller Capricorn One literally (which distressed the director of that film, who made several other science fiction films including two involving space flight that are highly regarded).
 
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prodromos

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I suspect that @d taylor takes comfort from the fact that he lives in a little bubble that insulates him from having to face the reality of the globe earth. He doesn't live on the coast, so seeing ships disappear over the horizon bottom first won't disturb his peace, He doesn't fly anywhere, so he is content to ignore any evidence he doesn't have to face personally like pesky flight times in the Southern Hemisphere. He lives North of the equator, so he never has to deal with seeing stars rotating the opposite way in the night sky nor deal with the fact that when looking South from Johannesburg just before dawn and South from Buenos Aires after dusk, at the same moment in time they are looking at the same stars despite their views being 90 degrees apart on his preferred model.
Since he doesn't have to personally confront any of the evidence that contradicts his own views, he simply pretends that none of it exists, such is the nature of his delusion and that of other flat earthers.
 
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lifepsyop

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Also, how can science line up with the Bible, when Bible is not a scientific work? It does not make sense.

Like this for example, the remains of Sodom and Gomorrah were recently discovered, with evidence lining up exactly as it is described in Genesis):

A Tunguska sized airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam a Middle Bronze Age city in the Jordan Valley near the Dead Sea


We present evidence that in ~ 1650 BCE (~ 3600 years ago), a cosmic airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, a Middle-Bronze-Age city in the southern Jordan Valley northeast of the Dead Sea. The proposed airburst was larger than the 1908 explosion over Tunguska, Russia, where a ~ 50-m-wide bolide detonated with ~ 1000× more energy than the Hiroshima atomic bomb. A city-wide ~ 1.5-m-thick carbon-and-ash-rich destruction layer contains peak concentrations of shocked quartz (~ 5–10 GPa); melted pottery and mudbricks; diamond-like carbon; soot; Fe- and Si-rich spherules; CaCO3 spherules from melted plaster; and melted platinum, iridium, nickel, gold, silver, zircon, chromite, and quartz. Heating experiments indicate temperatures exceeded 2000 °C. Amid city-side devastation, the airburst demolished 12+ m of the 4-to-5-story palace complex and the massive 4-m-thick mudbrick rampart, while causing extreme disarticulation and skeletal fragmentation in nearby humans. An airburst-related influx of salt (~ 4 wt.%) produced hypersalinity, inhibited agriculture, and caused a ~ 300–600-year-long abandonment of ~ 120 regional settlements within a > 25-km radius. Tall el-Hammam may be the second oldest city/town destroyed by a cosmic airburst/impact, after Abu Hureyra, Syria, and possibly the earliest site with an oral tradition that was written down (Genesis). Tunguska-scale airbursts can devastate entire cities/regions and thus, pose a severe modern-day hazard.


The Bible is many things, including real genealogy and history back to the times of Noah and beyond. (unless you believe the Gospel of Matthew is all poetry or something.)

Secular history only allows Biblical history in when it can be fit into a naturalistic framework (e.g. random cosmic accident)
 
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trophy33

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Like this for example, the remains of Sodom and Gomorrah were recently discovered, with evidence lining up exactly as it is described in Genesis):

A Tunguska sized airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam a Middle Bronze Age city in the Jordan Valley near the Dead Sea


We present evidence that in ~ 1650 BCE (~ 3600 years ago), a cosmic airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, a Middle-Bronze-Age city in the southern Jordan Valley northeast of the Dead Sea. The proposed airburst was larger than the 1908 explosion over Tunguska, Russia, where a ~ 50-m-wide bolide detonated with ~ 1000× more energy than the Hiroshima atomic bomb. A city-wide ~ 1.5-m-thick carbon-and-ash-rich destruction layer contains peak concentrations of shocked quartz (~ 5–10 GPa); melted pottery and mudbricks; diamond-like carbon; soot; Fe- and Si-rich spherules; CaCO3 spherules from melted plaster; and melted platinum, iridium, nickel, gold, silver, zircon, chromite, and quartz. Heating experiments indicate temperatures exceeded 2000 °C. Amid city-side devastation, the airburst demolished 12+ m of the 4-to-5-story palace complex and the massive 4-m-thick mudbrick rampart, while causing extreme disarticulation and skeletal fragmentation in nearby humans. An airburst-related influx of salt (~ 4 wt.%) produced hypersalinity, inhibited agriculture, and caused a ~ 300–600-year-long abandonment of ~ 120 regional settlements within a > 25-km radius. Tall el-Hammam may be the second oldest city/town destroyed by a cosmic airburst/impact, after Abu Hureyra, Syria, and possibly the earliest site with an oral tradition that was written down (Genesis). Tunguska-scale airbursts can devastate entire cities/regions and thus, pose a severe modern-day hazard.


The Bible is many things, including real genealogy and history back to the times of Noah and beyond. (unless you believe the Gospel of Matthew is all poetry or something.)

Secular history only allows Biblical history in when it can be fit into a naturalistic framework (e.g. random cosmic accident)
If we define the lining up with science as just that some of the places or names in the Bible existed or that some events in the Bible historically happened, then OK.

I meant rather scientific areas like cosmology, biology, anatomy and similar, in the context of this thread (which is about flat earthism).
 
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d taylor

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Forget about astronauts for a moment. You keep trying to shift the conversation there, but this thread is not about NASA but about whether or not the world is flat, as you claim in your signature, or round.

I have presented evidence, in the form of airline schedules, that would be impossible if the world were flat. Flat earthers have, for several years, claimed that the absence of direct flights between all of the populous southern continents, that is to say, those with cities (Africa, South America and Australia or New Zealand) proved that the world was flat, and for a brief period of time, due to Covid, it was the case that only connecting services operated by airlines such as Emirates or Singapore Airlines that involved changing planes north of the Equator were available. This naturally was dreadful for the people of those continents, but Covid was dreadful in general, or at least, the way it was handled.

However since then, travel restrictions were lifted and these flights have resumed.

There is also the very important point that in the Southern Hemisphere, because it is a hemisphere, the Great Circle Route which offers the shortest path between any two points is reversed compared to the North.

In insisting on a flat Earth, you are calling many more people than just NASA astronauts liars. Basically the entire maritime shipping industry and the entire aerospace industry including all airlines and all manufacturers or designers of aircraft and aircraft systems, particularly avionics, as well as terrestrial navigation beacons, radio manufacturers (since short wave radio relies on the curvature of the Earth for propagation), airport lighting contractors, air traffic controllers and enthusiasts of both ships and aviation, civil engineers designing roadways and pipelines, and also virtually all aircraft pilots and all navigators of ocean-going vessels.

And you also say you haven’t flown in an aircraft. The surface of the Earth even from 39,000 feet looks different and has been enough to convince me of the round Earth.

It is the Flat Earth conspiracy theory that is the more offensive and untenable; I can understand, on some level, why some people might find the idea of space flight bewildering, but in the case of Flat Earth conspiracy theories, these pose an actual danger because knowledge of the actual shape of the Earth is essential towards safe long distance travel.

And also likewise, the Flat Earth idea is much easier to exclude from the realm of possibility because of the restoration of non-stop airline flights between the Southern cities, which breaks the model of the world that you advocate.

Now this all being said, I still find the claims against all space travel absurd and offensive, particularly to families of astronauts, cosmonauts and test pilots who have perished in space or on the ground in training or conducting research. And the claims against travel to the moon, for example, the idea that Stanley Kubrick faked it, are also preposterous, and appear to have resulted from people taking the science fiction thriller Capricorn One literally (which distressed the director of that film, who made several other science fiction films including two involving space flight that are highly regarded).
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It takes no evidence supplied by man, to be able to believe God at His word "accounts of events" in The Bible.
 
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The Liturgist

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It takes no evidence supplied by man, to be able to believe God at His word "accounts of events" in The Bible.

I am not disputing the Bible. I am saying that the Flat Earth idea cannot account for the non-stop flights in the Southern Hemisphere that link Africa, Australia and South America. For a time due to Covid there was no service on these routes, and this point was seized on by flat Earth advocates as supposed “proof”, but such service has been restored. These flights are comparable in duration to flights of equivalent length in the Northern Hemisphere.
 
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d taylor

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I am not disputing the Bible. I am saying that the Flat Earth idea cannot account for the non-stop flights in the Southern Hemisphere that link Africa, Australia and South America. For a time due to Covid there was no service on these routes, and this point was seized on by flat Earth advocates as supposed “proof”, but such service has been restored. These flights are comparable in duration to flights of equivalent length in the Northern Hemisphere.
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However God arranged the one piece of circular earth after He divided up the earth in Peleg's time. It works for water travel and now for air travel. I believe when Christ returns for the 1000 year (millennium) rule again the earth will be one circular piece of land.
 
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The Liturgist

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However God arranged the one piece of circular earth after He divided up the earth in Peleg's time. It works for water travel and now for air travel. I believe when Christ returns for the 1000 year (millennium) rule again the earth will be one circular piece of land.

That doesn’t address my point at all, which is the demonstrable fact that airliners now travel between Africa, South America and Australia and NZ directly.
 
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prodromos

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It works for water travel and now for air travel.
It doesn't. It sort of does if you confine yourself to the upper half of the Northern Hemisphere, but further South It fails completely.
 
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The Liturgist

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It doesn't. It sort of does if you confine yourself to the upper half of the Northern Hemisphere, but further South It fails completely.

Indeed, but the Great Circle Route would produce different timings even in the North, and it would have broken down by the “equator” whereas in the real world the great circle route works equally well anywhere on Earth, between any two points.
 
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Paul4JC

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That doesn’t address my point at all, which is the demonstrable fact that airliners now travel between Africa, South America and Australia and NZ directly.


Such flights work on both maps. Interestingly 99% of flights don't take such routes and have 1 or 2 stops FlightAware Live. The very few that do have to use certain jetstreams like this flight which 200+ miles an hour faster and 2000ft higher than a normal flight. QF64 (QFA64) Qantas Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware . This video explains it well.
 
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It doesn't. It sort of does if you confine yourself to the upper half of the Northern Hemisphere, but further South It fails completely.
That's because the Southern Hemisphere doesn't exist. I've seen no reason to believe that Oz exists. I've tried to persuade by mate Pete, VK4NZ in Queensland, that he must actually be living somewhere else, but he simply tells me that I'm mental.
 
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prodromos

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Such flights work on both maps. Interestingly 99% of flights don't take such routes and have 1 or 2 stops FlightAware Live. The very few that do have to use certain jetstreams like this flight which 200+ miles an hour faster and 2000ft higher than a normal flight. QF64 (QFA64) Qantas Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware . This video explains it well.
Does this moron not see that the jet stream is blowing in the opposite direction to the flight of the aircraft? ^_^

The reason the aircraft appears to go ballistic is because it is projecting the globe onto a flat plane. The distance being covered close to Antarctica is much less than at the equator, so the graphic moves the aircraft bigger chunks over time than it would if it was flying near the equator.

Just when I think people could not be more stupid, someone creates a video like this and lowers the bar even further. :doh:
 
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d taylor

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Such flights work on both maps. Interestingly 99% of flights don't take such routes and have 1 or 2 stops FlightAware Live. The very few that do have to use certain jetstreams like this flight which 200+ miles an hour faster and 2000ft higher than a normal flight. QF64 (QFA64) Qantas Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware . This video explains it well.
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Air current and water currents effect travel could be. Whatever it is, God has His current flat earth creation in a working order. Even after God caused the singular circular earth created in Genesis 1 to divide up during Peleg's time.
 
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d taylor

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It is interesting how the current events trump assassination and now biden is sick. And people believe their government tells the truth. Oh and by the way we did go to the moon, your trusted government. Just believe us we have the science supporting us. So you ignorant people do not question us, just believe us.
 
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prodromos

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It is interesting how the current events trump assassination and now biden is sick. And people believe their government tells the truth. Oh and by the way we did go to the moon, your trusted government. Just believe us we have the science supporting us. So you ignorant people do not question us, just believe us.
Argument from emotion. No facts provided, just feels. A fairly typical flat earth response.
 
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Paul4JC

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Does this moron not see that the jet stream is blowing in the opposite direction to the flight of the aircraft? ^_^

The reason the aircraft appears to go ballistic is because it is projecting the globe onto a flat plane. The distance being covered close to Antarctica is much less than at the equator, so the graphic moves the aircraft bigger chunks over time than it would if it was flying near the equator.

Just when I think people could not be more stupid, someone creates a video like this and lowers the bar even further. :doh:
Your name-calling really exemplifies maturity.
 
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