Did Jesus die on the day they killed the paschal lamb?

[notRusskiyMir]

The problem with this logic is that the afternoon prior to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread. Three gospels say so. The same three gospels also say that the two disciples whom Jesus sent, Peter and John, in fact, “made ready the passover.” Two of them also say that the afternoon prior to the last supper was the day they killed the passover.

All John says is that the priests wanted to eat the passover, so they avoided defiling themselves.

There is no way to reconcile the Synoptics to a 14th crucifixion.They are as clear as you think John is, but are actually clear, as opposed to John which can be understood differently in a legitimate fashion. Fact is, there was a sacrifice on the 15th also referred to as the passover. It was the hagigah, or obligatory festive offering.

John says more than that. He said it was the Day of Preparation for the Passover. That is Nissan 14. With John, all falls into place. Take away your first sentence above, and things can be reconciled in the manner I gave. Yes, Peter and John made ready the Passover, as you say, but that is using 'Passover' in the sense of "slaughter of the lambs" day - sacrifice day, as the Chabad article stated. So the Last Supper would have been on Nissan 14, the evening of Nissan 13, if figured in current fashion. The slaughter would be the afternoon of the next day, still Nissan 14.

As to your first sentence, a possible explanation could be that a later copyist saw 'Passover' and made the connection to the Matzot festival not thinking it referred to the sacrifice day. Your big dilemma is having Jesus eating the Passover meal nearly a full day before He was killed. What rhyme or reason would that be in the Plan?

The whole Christian world for centuries later called this, the greatest of all Christian holidays, a variant of the word "Passover". For a reason. (Easter is a northern European term that came much later.)

And keep in mind that John was written after the Synoptics. Why would he be at such variance to the well known documents unless it was a clarification?

 

[AFrazier]

The last supper WAS on the 14th, the day the lambs were killed and the day Yeshua was killed. It is very simple. Why you can't grasp that is only your problem...I am not the one that looks silly...you are. You still do not know why the 15th is a complete impossibility.

Concerning the dual 14th bit . . .

If I’m understanding your point correctly, you are suggesting that the afternoon leading up to the last supper was the 13th, and that they ate the last supper on the 14th after the sun set. Then Jesus was crucified the next day, on the 14th.

In the first place, it specifically says that Peter and John made ready the passover. It says that Jesus sent the message to the goodman of the house that he would keep the passover at his house.

In the second place, the afternoon leading up to the last supper was specifically called the first day of unleavened bread and the day the passover was killed. Not the day before the first day of unleavened bread and the day the passover was killed. The first day of unleavened bread had come, when the passover was killed. And in consequence of this, the disciples asked him where he wanted to keep the passover.

The passover was killed about 3:00 in the afternoon on the 14th. It was not killed after sunset.

 

[AFrazier]

John says more than that. He said it was the Day of Preparation for the Passover. That is Nissan 14. With John, all falls into place. Take away your first sentence above, and things can be reconciled in the manner I gave. Yes, Peter and John made ready the Passover, as you say, but that is using 'Passover' in the sense of "slaughter of the lambs" day - sacrifice day, as the Chabad article stated. So the Last Supper would have been on Nissan 14, the evening of Nissan 13, if figured in current fashion. The slaughter would be the afternoon of the next day, still Nissan 14.

As to your first sentence, a possible explanation could be that a later copyist saw 'Passover' and made the connection to the Matzot festival not thinking it referred to the sacrifice day. Your big dilemma is having Jesus eating the Passover meal nearly a full day before He was killed. What rhyme or reason would that be in the Plan?

The whole Christian world for centuries later called this, the greatest of all Christian holidays, a variant of the word "Passover". For a reason. (Easter is a northern European term that came much later.)

And keep in mind that John was written after the Synoptics. Why would he be at such variance to the well known documents unless it was a clarification?

Correction. It was the day of preparation of the passover, not for the passover. All four gospels testify to the fact that it was Friday, or the day of preparation. As many academic scholars have noted, this merely means that it was Friday of Passover week.

Also, Mark and Luke are specific in saying that the afternoon prior to the last supper was itself the day when the passover was killed. Not the next day. Three gospels also pointedly state that Peter and John made ready the Passover.

And I don’t have a dilemma. I don’t base historical chronological fact on theology. It happened when it happened.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

Correction. It was the day of preparation of the passover, not for the passover. All four gospels testify to the fact that it was Friday, or the day of preparation. As many academic scholars have noted, this merely means that it was Friday of Passover week.

Also, Mark and Luke are specific in saying that the afternoon prior to the last supper was itself the day when the passover was killed. Not the next day. Three gospels also pointedly state that Peter and John made ready the Passover.

And I don’t have a dilemma. I don’t base historical chronological fact on theology. It happened when it happened.

Don't follow the distinction you are making, but I agree with your statement: "...the day of preparation of the Passover" means it was Nissan 14. It doesn't mean it was a Friday, which is named Preparation in Hebrew. I think this is the Orthodox view:

Wednesday Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- Leavened bread on table " 'Passover' begins"
Thursday Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed, placed in tomb
Thursday Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzot -- lamb, unleavened bread, herbs - Passover for 7 days
Friday (Preparation) Calendar 15 evening - 1 day in the tomb completed
Saturday (Sabbath) Calendar 16 evening - 2 day in the tomb completed
Sunday (1st Day) Calendar 17 morning - The women come to the Tomb; Resurrection revealed

Any other reckoning has Christ in the tomb for less than 2 days - Jewish and Roman basis.

 

[AFrazier]

Don't follow the distinction you are making, but I agree with your statement: "...the day of preparation of the Passover" means it was Nissan 14. It doesn't mean it was a Friday, which is named Preparation in Hebrew. I think this is the Orthodox view:

Wednesday Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- Leavened bread on table " 'Passover' begins"
Thursday Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed, placed in tomb
Thursday Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzot -- lamb, unleavened bread, herbs - Passover for 7 days
Friday (Preparation) Calendar 15 evening - 1 day in the tomb completed
Saturday (Sabbath) Calendar 16 evening - 2 day in the tomb completed
Sunday (1st Day) Calendar 17 morning - The women come to the Tomb; Resurrection revealed

Any other reckoning has Christ in the tomb for less than 2 days - Jewish and Roman basis.

The distinction is that “for” implies preparation for the passover specifically as opposed to preparation for the sabbath, whereas “of” implies during.

The day of preparation is the day before the sabbath. That’s why it’s a Friday. Preparation of the passover means it’s the Friday of passover week.

I understand what you’re trying to say. But “preparation of the passover” is not the colloquial nomenclature used by the Jews for the 14th of Nisan. It was called the “eve of the passover.” And besides which, all four gospels testify to the fact that the day after the crucifixion was the sabbath, and that the day of the crucifixion was the day of preparation. Not only does that indicate Friday, but also provides context for John’s statement and correct understanding of the “preparation “ phrase.

 

[AFrazier]

Don't follow the distinction you are making, but I agree with your statement: "...the day of preparation of the Passover" means it was Nissan 14. It doesn't mean it was a Friday, which is named Preparation in Hebrew. I think this is the Orthodox view:

Wednesday Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- Leavened bread on table " 'Passover' begins"
Thursday Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed, placed in tomb
Thursday Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzot -- lamb, unleavened bread, herbs - Passover for 7 days
Friday (Preparation) Calendar 15 evening - 1 day in the tomb completed
Saturday (Sabbath) Calendar 16 evening - 2 day in the tomb completed
Sunday (1st Day) Calendar 17 morning - The women come to the Tomb; Resurrection revealed

Any other reckoning has Christ in the tomb for less than 2 days - Jewish and Roman basis.

Also, some problems with the chronology you have here.

1) Leavened bread wasn’t required until noon on the 14th day.

2) Mark and Luke both say it was the day the lambs were killed prior to the last supper.

3) If Jesus died on a Thursday, then the documentable chronology of Passion week would result in Jesus riding a donkey on the sabbath.

 

[ralliann]

Did I say that?

Seems implied, so not sure...

Yom Kippur has it's own future fulfillment as does Yom Teruah.

Yes, but also fulfilled in Christ. I wonder if you agree?

Do you understand what a testament is? Do you understand what that covenant entailed?

Disannulling the carnal elements of the law
The order of Aaronic priesthood.....as one element...

Do you understand why bread and wine were used?

I understand the lamb they ate that night was not used. I also understand the wine was not Moses law, but new covenant...given as a memorial of him.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

What does it mean to drink of the cup?

Sharing from his priestly sacrifice, from his table... via Circumcision of the heart
1 Cor 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
1Co 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
When did he ascend to the true tabernacle?????
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

 

[notRusskiyMir]

The distinction is that “for” implies preparation for the passover specifically as opposed to preparation for the sabbath, whereas “of” implies during.

The day of preparation is the day before the sabbath. That’s why it’s a Friday. Preparation of the passover means it’s the Friday of passover week.

I understand what you’re trying to say. But “preparation of the passover” is not the colloquial nomenclature used by the Jews for the 14th of Nisan. It was called the “eve of the passover.” And besides which, all four gospels testify to the fact that the day after the crucifixion was the sabbath, and that the day of the crucifixion was the day of preparation. Not only does that indicate Friday, but also provides context for John’s statement and correct understanding of the “preparation “ phrase.

You do realize that Passover does not have to be on the Sabbath, nor on the day before the Sabbath, called "Preparation", right? I do not think you do.
Passover begins wherever Nissan 14 falls. I gave you the sequence followed by the Orthodox Church. I gave you a plausible explanation how the Synoptics went astray, and how John 19:14 set them aright.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

The day of preparation is the day before the sabbath. That’s why it’s a Friday. Preparation of the passover means it’s the Friday of passover week.

No it doesn't, as explained just above. Passover does NOT have to be on a Sabbath.

Leavened bread wasn’t required until noon on the 14th day.

Not an issue. I think you mean "Unleavened bread" - matzah. In the sequence I gave, the Last Supper was on Wednesday evening, the beginning of Nissan 14. Leaven - yeast - - Chametz - had to be removed from the home and burnt by afternoon on Nissan 14. The Orthodox Church uses leavened bread - common bread - "artos" in the Bible - check your Strong's Concordance - for the Eucharist, for this reason.

Mark and Luke both say it was the day the lambs were killed prior to the last supper.

The slaughter of the lambs was for Passover. You would have Jesus eating the Passover, when He is humanity's Passover.

If Jesus died on a Thursday, then the documentable chronology of Passion week would result in Jesus riding a donkey on the sabbath.

"Six days before Passover, Jesus and the Twelve depart from Ephraim to visit Lazarus, Mary and Martha in Bethany (John 12:1–3)" Per the chronology I gave, Nissan 15 started on Thursday evening. John isn't clear, but does suggest the route wasn't directly from Ephraim, or necessarily from Bethany. So, that Thursday evening is plausible.

Triumphal entry into Jerusalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[AFrazier]

You do realize that Passover does not have to be on the Sabbath, nor on the day before the Sabbath, called "Preparation", right? I do not think you do.
Passover begins wherever Nissan 14 falls. I gave you the sequence followed by the Orthodox Church. I gave you a plausible explanation how the Synoptics went astray, and how John 19:14 set them aright.

Yes, I am perfectly aware that the Passover can occur any weekday. Not sure what point you’re making, or why you call my knowledge into question on it.

I agree that the Passover begins on whatever day Nisan 14th. Again, not sure what point you’re making.

I don’t rightly care what sequence the Orthodox Church follows. Nor do I concede to a contradiction in the gospels, or that John “corrected “ the Synoptics.

I, too, gave you a plausible explanation for the seeming discrepancy. And there are plenty of scholars who agree the explanation. Fact is, there is no valid way to interpret the Synoptics as portraying anything other than a Nisan 14th Passover last supper, and by extension, a Nisan 15th crucifixion. John, however, can be understood differently if one chooses to accept that there is no contradiction. That is to say that the priests wanted to eat the Hagigah, or festive offering, also called the pascha of the 15th, or more simply, the passover. Sources are available as needed.

 

[AFrazier]

No it doesn't, as explained just above. Passover does NOT have to be on a Sabbath.

Not an issue. I think you mean "Unleavened bread" - matzah. In the sequence I gave, the Last Supper was on Wednesday evening, the beginning of Nissan 14. Leaven - yeast - - Chametz - had to be removed from the home and burnt by afternoon on Nissan 14. The Orthodox Church uses leavened bread - common bread - "artos" in the Bible - check your Strong's Concordance - for the Eucharist, for this reason.

The slaughter of the lambs was for Passover. You would have Jesus eating the Passover, when He is humanity's Passover.

"Six days before Passover, Jesus and the Twelve depart from Ephraim to visit Lazarus, Mary and Martha in Bethany (John 12:1–3)" Per the chronology I gave, Nissan 15 started on Thursday evening. John isn't clear, but does suggest the route wasn't directly from Ephraim, or necessarily from Bethany. So, that Thursday evening is plausible.

Triumphal entry into Jerusalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Before I waste time talking to another person whose cup is already too full . . .

1) I don’t accept Wikipedia as a reliable source. I have personally tried to edit articles, with source citations to credible sources like Theodore Mommsen, Emil Schürer, Alfred Edersheim et al, and had know-it-all watchdogs revert my changes faster than they could have read them. It’s an observed and experienced fact that the articles aren’t necessarily as fully credible as they could be due to interference by would-be scholars.

2) I have spent close to thirty years researching this and related topics. I’m not a novice, and I don’t want to engage if you’re going to ignore my posts or condescend to me. You’re welcome to disagree and offer educated rebuttals based on source-cited arguments. But I’m not going to argue source-cited arguments versus opinions.

I’ll respond to your statements a little la. I have to go.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

Before I waste time talking to another person whose cup is already too full . . .

1) I don’t accept Wikipedia as a reliable source. I have personally tried to edit articles, with source citations to credible sources like Theodore Mommsen, Emil Schürer, Alfred Edersheim et al, and had know-it-all watchdogs revert my changes faster than they could have read them. It’s an observed and experienced fact that the articles aren’t necessarily as fully credible as they could be due to interference by would-be scholars.

2) I have spent close to thirty years researching this and related topics. I’m not a novice, and I don’t want to engage if you’re going to ignore my posts or condescend to me. You’re welcome to disagree and offer educated rebuttals based on source-cited arguments. But I’m not going to argue source-cited arguments versus opinions.

I’ll respond to your statements a little la. I have to go.

I used Wikipedia because it was readily available.

Look, I gave the Orthodox Christian version of the Passion sequence. It follows John 19:14. Catholics and protestants follow the Synoptics.

I gave the full daily sequence which is straight-forward and consistent with Jewish practice - I provided the link - one more time - below. You can get huffy all you want.

Your way results in inconsistencies with Jewish practice, or improbable outcomes such as Jesus at a Last Supper that is a seder and BEFORE He is killed. My way, the Orthodox way, Christ is the Paschal Lamb. And there is a 3 day Resurrection.

Wednesday Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- Leavened bread on table " 'Passover' begins"
Thursday Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed, placed in tomb
Thursday Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzot -- lamb, unleavened bread, herbs - Passover for 7 days
Friday (Preparation) Calendar 15 evening - 1 day in the tomb completed
Saturday (Sabbath) Calendar 16 evening - 2 days in the tomb completed
Sunday (1st Day) Calendar 17 morning - The women come to the Tomb; Resurrection revealed

Any other reckoning has Christ in the tomb for less than 2 days - Jewish and Roman basis.

So, I'll take the Orthodox Church's 1770? years against your 30 years. I don't want you to concede anything. I do want you to recognize that what I have presented is accepted by 25 per cent + of Christianity for 1770 (depends where you consider authoritative starting point) years.

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/3283921/jewish/Why-Is-Passover-on-Nissan-15-Not-Nissan-14.htm

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I just had a flashback moment. A deja vu. I think you have answered that answer in the past.

So, now you’re definitely wrong, and very clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. But at least you no longer look entirely illogical. You’re just one of those grossly mistaken people who ascribes to the erroneous notion of everything happening on the 14th. You think that part of it happened after sunset when it became the 14th, and the rest happened the next day on the day of the 14th.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Only one wrong is YOU! Your theory of the 15th is impossible but you don't even know why...lol

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I assume, by the way, that in your view the 15th is ”impossible “ because of your theological interpretations, not because of the documented historical facts. Just to clear this up, it’s not “impossible.” Impossible means that it couldn’t have happened. But I assure you, it could have, even if it’s disagreeable to your point of view. This is something of a Princess Bride kind of moment. “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

It is a fact that it could not have happened on the 15th but you do not know why...and there are many reasons but there is a very important reason.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The problem with this logic is that the afternoon prior to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread. Three gospels say so. The same three gospels also say that the two disciples whom Jesus sent, Peter and John, in fact, “made ready the passover.” Two of them also say that the afternoon prior to the last supper was the day they killed the passover.

All John says is that the priests wanted to eat the passover, so they avoided defiling themselves.

There is no way to reconcile the Synoptics to a 14th crucifixion.They are as clear as you think John is, but are actually clear, as opposed to John which can be understood differently in a legitimate fashion. Fact is, there was a sacrifice on the 15th also referred to as the passover. It was the hagigah, or obligatory festive offering.

There are sacrifices and Chagigot EVERYDAY throughout. You just happen to pick the 15th because you have to force it to fit your theory LOL.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Your way results in inconsistencies with Jewish practice, or improbable outcomes such as Jesus at a Last Supper that is a seder and BEFORE He is killed. My way, the Orthodox way, Christ is the Paschal Lamb. And there is a 3 day Resurrection.

Wednesday Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- Leavened bread on table " 'Passover' begins"
Thursday Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed, placed in tomb
Thursday Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzot -- lamb, unleavened bread, herbs - Passover for 7 days
Friday (Preparation) Calendar 15 evening - 1 day in the tomb completed
Saturday (Sabbath) Calendar 16 evening - 2 days in the tomb completed
Sunday (1st Day) Calendar 17 morning - The women come to the Tomb; Resurrection revealed

I know what you are trying to say but that is not the eastern Orthodox reckoning of events. the T4th was a Friday when He died on the cross. The last supper was on the evening before. The 15th was Shabbat (Holy Saturday) and 16th was the Resurrection. Mr Frazier does not understand nor does he care regarding inconsistencies with Jewish practice or improbable outcomes.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The passover was killed about 3:00 in the afternoon on the 14th. It was not killed after sunset.

I have never said anything different

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Disannulling the carnal elements of the law
The order of Aaronic priesthood.....as one element...

I understand the lamb they ate that night was not used. I also understand the wine was not Moses law, but new covenant...given as a memorial of him.
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

OK, so you do not know. I will give you a hint...Jeremiah 31:32 and Revelation 19

 

[notRusskiyMir]

I know what you are trying to say but that is not the eastern Orthodox reckoning of events. the T4th was a Friday when He died on the cross. The last supper was on the evening before. The 15th was Shabbat (Holy Saturday) and 16th was the Resurrection. Mr Frazier does not understand nor does he care regarding inconsistencies with Jewish practice or improbable outcomes.

The Orthodox believe in a 3 day Resurrection. Dying on a Friday doesn't satisfy that. Holy Thursday morning service is about the Last Supper. (Holy Wednesday evening is a healing service.) Holy Thursday evening service is about the crucifixion. Holy Friday afternoon is about Jesus' burial, Christ is no longer on the Cross. Holy Friday evening service is the Lamentations at Christ's tomb. So, I am right.

It seems you cannot make a break from the Synoptics, which is fine, but don't say I am wrong. Here it is, once again.

Wednesday Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- Leavened bread on table " 'Passover' begins"
Thursday Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed, placed in tomb
Thursday Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzot -- lamb, unleavened bread, herbs - Passover for 7 days
Friday (Preparation) Calendar 15 evening - 1 day in the tomb completed
Saturday (Sabbath) Calendar 16 evening - 2 days in the tomb completed
Sunday (1st Day) Calendar 17 morning - The women come to the Tomb; Resurrection revealed

Say you don't agree with this, but not that I am wrong. I won't ask why you don't agree, because I know why.

Added: I want to keep this with the above in case someone sees this comment first.

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/3283921/jewish/Why-Is-Passover-on-Nissan-15-Not-Nissan-14.htm

 

[ralliann]

OK, so you do not know. I will give you a hint...Jeremiah 31:32 and Revelation 19

Sounds like I did say similar to that...