Did Jesus die on the day they killed the paschal lamb?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Which one of us doesn't know how to read? Which one of us is dead wrong?

Mark 14:12 — And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luke 22:7-8 — Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

According to you . . .



Jesus was arrested that night following the last supper, aaaaaaaaand . . .

Matthew 27:1-2 — When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

Mark 15:1 — [ . . . ] straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.

Luke 22:66, 23:1 — [ . . . ] as soon as it was day [ . . . ] the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.

The New Testament uses Passover and the UB interchangeably. Sometimes it calls the entire 8 days (1 day Passover + 7 days UB) as Passover and sometimes the Feast of UB and sometimes both, as in Mark 14:1.

And on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, Where do you desire we should prepare for You to eat the Passover?” (Matt 26:17). [See, the 1+7=8 days are called UB!]

“And on the first day of the Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover” (Mar 14:12). [See, the 1+7=8 days are called UB].

“And the Feast of Unleavened Bread, BEING CALLED Passover, drew near” (Luke 22:1). [See, the entire 8 days are also called Passover!!].

"And the day of the Unleavened Bread came, ON WHICH the Passover must be killed” (Luke 22:7).

The fact is Passover falls on Nissan 14th and the very next day, Nissan 15th, comes the first day of the UB. So the 1 day Passover + 7 days UB are considered to be, for practical purposes, ONE feast. Sometimes, they call it Passover, sometimes UB and sometimes, both.

 

[ralliann]

Well why did it not happen in July then if dates do not matter???

It does not nullify his sacrifice for atonement does it?

Appointed times (Moedim) MATTER. Romans 5:6..."at the appointed time Christ died for the ungodly."

Passover is a memorial sacrifice to spare the firstborn, in fulfillment to the covenant made with Abraham, which spared their houses..You are speaking of a sacrifice concerning Sin.

Even Yeshua said many time that “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified" or "My hour has not yet come". Ever read Exodus, Leviticus or Deuteronomy? SPECIFIC days. The prophets provided SPECIFIC prophecies. None of the scriptures you posted have any bearing on the subject at hand.

Again his sacrifice was for a NEW covenant, and for sin....It is about fulfilling the promise on oath to Abraham.

Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: {confirmed … : Gr. interposed himself by }

29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

His one time sacrifice is significant to them all. IN fulfillment of the promise made to all Abrham's seed. Beginning with PASSOVER.......

 

[AFrazier]

No, that is not what I said. I have always said He died ON the 14th as the lambs were killed. Your BIG problem is YOU say he died on the 15th. YOU have a big problem if all that happened on the 15th...but you do not know why. The last supper was NOT the passover meal after the lambs were killed on the 14th. I have explained this to you before but since you know nothing about 2nd temple Judaism you do not understand it. You also do not understand what the last supper actually was. Here I will post it once again: "On the fourteenth day of the first month is the Passover of the Lord. And on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast; unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days." The lambs were killed on the 14th. Yeshua was killed on the 14th. All of the Gospels state that He was crucified and buried on “the day of Preparation” which is Friday (Matt. 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42) so all four agree.

"But in the month of Xanthicus; which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year; on the fourteenth day of the Lunar month, when the sun is in Aries; for on this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians: the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt: and which was called the Passover. And so we do celebrate this Passover in companies, and leave nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following. The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the Passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days: wherein they feed on unleavened bread."
Josephus Antiquities of the Jews in Book III, Chapter 10, verse 5

"But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them."
Josephus Antiquities of the Jews in Book III, Chapter 10, verse 5


"As late as the Second Temple period, Passover and Chag HaMatzot were viewed as two separate holidays."
Dr. Malka Simkovich PhD

I stopped reading after the first two sentences, because you’re regurgitating the same tired nonsense. The scriptures say he ate the last supper following the afternoon when the pascha was killed. This is scripture from two separate gospels. You say that the pascha was killed on the 14th, with which I agree. The scriptures say that Jesus was crucified the next day. So, how is it that you’re still talking in circles?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I stopped reading after the first two sentences, because you’re regurgitating the same tired nonsense.

You stopped reading because you know I am right and you don't like the truth because it proves your theory wrong. Only one here regurgitating nonsense is you.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It does not nullify his sacrifice for atonement does it?

Passover is a memorial sacrifice to spare the firstborn, in fulfillment to the covenant made with Abraham, which spared their houses..You are speaking of a sacrifice concerning Sin.

Again his sacrifice was for a NEW covenant, and for sin....It is about fulfilling the promise on oath to Abraham.

That does not nullify or discount the moedim...appointed times MATTER...fulfillments MATTER and dates MATTER.

 

[ralliann]

That does not nullify or discount the moedim...appointed times MATTER...fulfillments MATTER and dates MATTER.

His sacrifice does not nullify the moedim, rather it fulfills all of them with his better sacrifice than those commanded by the law of/from Moses....

 

[AFrazier]

You stopped reading because you know I am right and you don't like the truth because it proves your theory wrong. Only one here regurgitating nonsense is you.

You’re wrong. You deny scripture. Let’s just end it here.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

His sacrifice does not nullify the moedim, rather it fulfills all of them with his better sacrifice than those commanded by the law of/from Moses....

I never said it did. As I said, Fulfillments MATTER.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You deny scripture. Let’s just end it here.

I don't deny scripture, it is just quite obvious you just do not understand them and interpret them incorrectly to try and fit them into your theory...

 

[AFrazier]

I don't deny scripture, it is just quite obvious you just do not understand them and interpret them incorrectly to try and fit them into your theory...

Just stop already. I posted the scriptures. They don’t require interpretation. You keep talking around them like they don’t exist. It’s not “my theory.” It’s what they say. A nine year old could grasp it. It’s literally like one of my kid’s word problems at school.

1. If the lambs were killed on the 14th, and they ate the last supper on the day the lambs were killed, what day did they eat the last supper?
A) The 13th.
B) The 14th.
C) The 15th.
D) The 11th.

2. If the last supper was on the 14th, on the day the lambs were killed, and the crucifixion was the next day, what day was the crucifixion?
A) The 11th.
B) The 14th.
C) The 15th.
D) The 22nd.

For reasons beyond my comprehension, your answer to both questions is B. Again, it’s not a theory. It’s what they say. They ate the last supper on the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover. You haven’t proven me wrong, and you haven’t proven yourself right. The only thing you’ve done is make yourself look silly. There are plenty of scholars who choose the Johannine interpretation of events and conclude a 14th crucifixion. But they are at least willing to acknowledge that the Synoptics very blatantly say something different. In response to the obvious discrepancy, people have postulated solutions such as two separate feasts, relative to Sadducee versus Pharisee calendrical differences, the Qumran sectarian calendar, an unsanctioned early passover, etc. There are a variety of proposed solutions. But these proposed solutions exist because it’s impossible to get around the fact that the Synoptics put the last supper on the 14th, and the crucifixion, by default, on the 15th.

As I’ve said, I can be at peace if you acknowledged both perspectives and chose to favor the Johannine interpretation over the Synoptic statements. You wouldn’t be the first to do so. But telling me that I’m ”dead wrong” over something that any child could see . . . You don’t come across as being terribly intelligent. All it does is make you look foolish and obstinate.

 

[ralliann]

I never said it did. As I said, Fulfillments MATTER.

If it is not nullified by date, then it is fulfilled.....Which matters..

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If it is not nullified by date, then it is fulfilled.....Which matters..

They are fulfilled on the APPOINTED TIMES.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Just stop already. I posted the scriptures. They don’t require interpretation. You keep talking around them like they don’t exist. It’s not “my theory.” It’s what they say. A nine year old could grasp it. It’s literally like one of my kid’s word problems at school.

1. If the lambs were killed on the 14th, and they ate the last supper on the day the lambs were killed, what day did they eat the last supper?
A) The 13th.
B) The 14th.
C) The 15th.
D) The 11th.

2. If the last supper was on the 14th, on the day the lambs were killed, and the crucifixion was the next day, what day was the crucifixion?
A) The 11th.
B) The 14th.
C) The 15th.
D) The 22nd.

For reasons beyond my comprehension, your answer to both questions is B. Again, it’s not a theory. It’s what they say. They ate the last supper on the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover. You haven’t proven me wrong, and you haven’t proven yourself right. The only thing you’ve done is make yourself look silly. There are plenty of scholars who choose the Johannine interpretation of events and conclude a 14th crucifixion. But they are at least willing to acknowledge that the Synoptics very blatantly say something different. In response to the obvious discrepancy, people have postulated solutions such as two separate feasts, relative to Sadducee versus Pharisee calendrical differences, the Qumran sectarian calendar, an unsanctioned early passover, etc. There are a variety of proposed solutions. But these proposed solutions exist because it’s impossible to get around the fact that the Synoptics put the last supper on the 14th, and the crucifixion, by default, on the 15th.

As I’ve said, I can be at peace if you acknowledged both perspectives and chose to favor the Johannine interpretation over the Synoptic statements. You wouldn’t be the first to do so. But telling me that I’m ”dead wrong” over something that any child could see . . . You don’t come across as being terribly intelligent. All it does is make you look foolish and obstinate.

The last supper WAS on the 14th, the day the lambs were killed and the day Yeshua was killed. It is very simple. Why you can't grasp that is only your problem...I am not the one that looks silly...you are. You still do not know why the 15th is a complete impossibility.

 

[ralliann]

They are fulfilled on the APPOINTED TIMES.

So Christ still needs to die on the day of Atonement now? He has not yet made atonement for their sin? Furthermore by that kind of thinking he has not died for sin at all. The Passover was not an atonement for sin..

****Blood of the new covenant, under which came remission of Sin.... Not the blood of the old covenant...

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mr 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Lu 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So Christ still needs to die on the day of Atonement now? He has not yet made atonement for their sin? Furthermore by that kind of thinking he has not died for sin at all. The Passover was not an atonement for sin..

****Blood of the new covenant, under which came remission of Sin.... Not the blood of the old covenant...

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mr 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Lu 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Did I say that? Yom Kippur has it's own future fulfillment as does Yom Teruah. Do you understand what a testament is? Do you understand what that covenant entailed? Do you understand why bread and wine were used? What does it mean to drink of the cup?

 

[notRusskiyMir]

The last supper WAS on the 14th, the day the lambs were killed and the day Yeshua was killed. It is very simple. Why you can't grasp that is only your problem...I am not the one that looks silly...you are. You still do not know why the 15th is a complete impossibility.

I think the Jewish day starting at sundown is at play. If the Last Supper was on the 14th, it would be after sundown on calendar 13. That is before the Chametz needed to be cleared away, so leavened bread - artos - was on the table. Jesus was killed on the 14th in the afternoon. As the chabad article I provided states, the 14th was often called 'Passover" meaning the Passover sacrifice, that is, killing the Lamb. So the Synoptic Gospels state that (in effect), it was the Passover. (I think there is wording about readying for the Passover.) But John 19:14 makes it clear, that Jesus died on the afternoon of the 14th. The Passover mentioned in that passage et al, refers to the Festival of the Unleavened Bread - the formal Passover.

Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- " 'Passover' begins"
Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed
Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzot -- Passover for 7 days

 

[AFrazier]

The last supper WAS on the 14th, the day the lambs were killed and the day Yeshua was killed. It is very simple. Why you can't grasp that is only your problem...I am not the one that looks silly...you are. You still do not know why the 15th is a complete impossibility.

I just had a flashback moment. A deja vu. I think you have answered that answer in the past.

So, now you’re definitely wrong, and very clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. But at least you no longer look entirely illogical. You’re just one of those grossly mistaken people who ascribes to the erroneous notion of everything happening on the 14th. You think that part of it happened after sunset when it became the 14th, and the rest happened the next day on the day of the 14th.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[AFrazier]

I think the Jewish day starting at sundown is at play. If the Last Supper was on the 14th, it would be after sundown on calendar 13. That is before the Chametz needed to be cleared away, so leavened bread - artos - was on the table. Jesus was killed on the 14th in the afternoon. As the chabad article I provided states, the 14th was often called 'Passover" meaning the Passover sacrifice, that is, killing the Lamb. So the Synoptic Gospels state that (in effect), it was the Passover. (I think there is wording about readying for the Passover.) But John 19:14 makes it clear, that Jesus died on the afternoon of the 14th. The Passover mentioned in that passage et al, refers to the Festival of the Unleavened Bread - the formal Passover.

Calendar 13 evening -- Nissan 14 beginning -- Last Supper -- " 'Passover' begins"
Calendar 14 afternoon -- Nissan 14 afternoon -- Lamb was killed (Passover sacrifice); Chametz burnt; Jesus was killed
Calendar 14 evening -- Nissan 15 beginning -- Festival of Matzot -- Passover for 7 days

The problem with this logic is that the afternoon prior to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread. Three gospels say so. The same three gospels also say that the two disciples whom Jesus sent, Peter and John, in fact, “made ready the passover.” Two of them also say that the afternoon prior to the last supper was the day they killed the passover.

All John says is that the priests wanted to eat the passover, so they avoided defiling themselves.

There is no way to reconcile the Synoptics to a 14th crucifixion.They are as clear as you think John is, but are actually clear, as opposed to John which can be understood differently in a legitimate fashion. Fact is, there was a sacrifice on the 15th also referred to as the passover. It was the hagigah, or obligatory festive offering.

 

[AFrazier]

So Christ still needs to die on the day of Atonement now? He has not yet made atonement for their sin? Furthermore by that kind of thinking he has not died for sin at all. The Passover was not an atonement for sin..

****Blood of the new covenant, under which came remission of Sin.... Not the blood of the old covenant...

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mr 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Lu 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Whether or not you agree with my conclusions, I do agree with your arguments here. The inherent symbolism is obvious.

 

[AFrazier]

The last supper WAS on the 14th, the day the lambs were killed and the day Yeshua was killed. It is very simple. Why you can't grasp that is only your problem...I am not the one that looks silly...you are. You still do not know why the 15th is a complete impossibility.

I assume, by the way, that in your view the 15th is ”impossible “ because of your theological interpretations, not because of the documented historical facts. Just to clear this up, it’s not “impossible.” Impossible means that it couldn’t have happened. But I assure you, it could have, even if it’s disagreeable to your point of view. This is something of a Princess Bride kind of moment. “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”