Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Godcrazy]

So true service to self is a lonely business and wealth and pleasure gets hollow

 

[BCP1928]

No I am saying that these Christian values and beliefs were once in secular society, the public space and society removed them which is what a secular State should do. So Christianity has no power anymore to dictate secular norms.

Now the State dictates the values and beliefs on these matters. The State is now taken the role of the arbitor of what beliefs and values society should have. But that is a religion in itself because the determination of what consitutues the right ideology in how individuals, families, institutions and society as a whole should be ordered is a metaphysical belief itself. Its not based on facts or reality.

Ok well that sounds like the many other extreme groups like Extinction rebellion, Greenpeace, BLM, ANTIFA, all the Marxist groups trying to force socialism, the Woke brigade, Cancel Culture and DEI ideologues. Society is made up of many political and ideological groups all vying for space and to control the narrative and society.

None of them are an organized political party, none of them are a unified movement of anything like national scope and none of them are promoting their agenda in Christ's name

Yes when we take God out of the picture all we have left is self. Rather than looking outside and above ourselves we turn inward and feelings and self satisfaction become everything.

Thats why Satan tempted Christ with power and pleasure of wealth to take His eyes off God and place it at Gods feet with the things of this world.

Satan offered Jesus the political power which you covet. He turned it down.

But what is interesting and a concern is that everyone has become more polarised and not just these "Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestants". The Left will have their versions of extreme ideology. We already see it in operation within society and how divisive it is.

The thing is people are now demonising opposing groups because they are making it all about groups, identity. You just identified what you believe is a negative identity which makes up 25% of voters. So your demonising a quarter of all people. Thats not a good way to create a society that gets along by calling anyone who has a different and perhaps valid view at least in some ways bad or evil.

I mean most of that list you make is not necessarily an extreme position to take. Maybe completely outlawing everything is unreal but most people agree in minimizing Abortion, unnecessary abortions. Or reducing gun related deaths through some sort of gun control.

I don't think they are against the LGBTIQ+ community but rather having some unreal ideology thrust upon them . Most say that a person can identify however they want but they should not and society should not impose something on people they don't believe in or think is reality. What some Woke ideologues are doing is wanting to impose their ideology onto everyone.

But that is exacty the same thing people are accusing the (Fundamentalist Evangelicals of doing. Forcing their religion onto others.

I don't think most people are against birth control. Its more about responsible birth control to stop the rise of broken families, fatherless kids. These are nobel reasons. You act like there is no rational basis to these concerns.

I mean look at the out of control situation with immigration, refugees and asylum seekers. Due to lax policies we now have worldwide crisis on our hands where civil unreal is occurring across most western nations. Tens of thousands of people crossing borders without any controls and where radicals are coming in and bringing their chaos now undermining society.

The Scandinavian nations who had the most generous immigration polcies are now a hotbed of terrorism and gand violence. These were once the most peaceful and human societies.

What I find ironic is that you dismiss these Christian groups perse as though 25% of the people are full of rubbish when there may be some truth to the issues they highlight. Sure some go overboard but that doesn't mean these issues need addressing and that current policy or beliefs about how we should deal with this is correct.

They're full of rubbish in making them Christian issues. Maybe the sex stuff can be seen as Christian issues, but global warming, gun control, single payer health care, immigration? Tell me how taking steps to combat global warming is an attack on Christianity, and I will show you Christian rubbish. Tell me how any gun control legislation at all is an attack on Christianity and I will show you Christian Rubbish. Show me how single-payer health care is an attack on Christianity and I will show you Christian rubbish.. Show me how granting asylum to immigrants, most of whom are Christians, is an attack on Christianity and I will show you Christian rubbish.

It may be that the current beliefs and policies about open boarders, free range of abortion, the pill, gund ect is exactly what is the problem. At the very least both sides concerns should be legitimate and able to be expressed if we are to tolerate all views and beliefs.

No, Christians support Trump because they will admit of no compromise on those issues. Even now, and at Trump's direction, the Christian faction in Congress blocks any legislation (even of policies they favor) which require bipartisan support.

 

[stevevw]

None of them are an organized political party, none of them are a unified movement of anything like national scope and none of them are promoting their agenda in Christ's name

The Woke ideologues are more deceptive than that. They use nobel causes as Trojan horses to sneak their agenda in. Institutional and political agents do they bidding so they are organised and have plenty of political power over the majority.

Satan offered Jesus the political power which you covet. He turned it down.

Political power which I covet. What are you talking about. Christians don't covet worldly power. Expressing ones beliefs and Gods Word is not coverting worldly power its actually denouncing it. Don't mistake Gods Word and Truth as political power. If you take it that way thats on you not me.

They're full of rubbish in making them Christian issues. Maybe the sex stuff can be seen as Christian issues, but global warming, gun control, single payer health care, immigration?

Of course these issues will concern Christians. Destroying Gods creation through greed is a Christian concern. Anything that leads to people suffering is a Christian concern.

Gun control is related to killing humans ie 'Thou shall not kill'. So minimising guns that kill is a Christian concern. Health care is related to human rights and poor health is inhumane so of course Christians will be concerned about poor treatment of people. Immigration well if this causes suffering to locals, if it brings in terror and crime its a concern to Christians.

Tell me how taking steps to combat global warming is an attack on Christianity, and I will show you Christian rubbish.

Not sure what you mean "an attack on Christians". Christians should be concerned about human made global warming. Abusing the planet is like abusing your body which God says is a sin. Certainly abusing Gods creation is not very Christian.

Tell me how any gun control legislation at all is an attack on Christianity and I will show you Christian Rubbish.

I am not sure how you are equating these as an attack on Christians. Christians would be for gun control so how is gun control legislation an attack on Christians. Or do you mean the other way around where people are attacking Christian politicians for proposing gun controls.

By the way who are these Christian politicians as I sometimes watch Congress and see some of these debates and as far as I can see at least the Republicans debating who seem share similar beliefs and political views on these issues they make a lot of sense on these issues.

Show me how single-payer health care is an attack on Christianity and I will show you Christian rubbish.. Show me how granting asylum to immigrants, most of whom are Christians, is an attack on Christianity and I will show you Christian rubbish.

Ah I see where your coming from at least for immigration. Your conflating perhaps a Christian politician opposing say open borders and then conflating that as denying all genuine asslum seekers.

This is a fundemental mistake. I don't think any Christian is saying we should completely deny assylum seekers but rather have controls, some vetting of who comes in. But look what chaos this policy has caused.

If we look at all the Leftist nations who had open boarder policies over the last 10 years or so Germany, France, the Scandinavian nations they are now having massive problems with terrorism and gand violence. Crime has gone up and they are constantly trying to avert the next terror plot againt their own people.

So now we are seeing even the Left polititians calling to closed boarders as they see the nightmare their policies have released on their nations. Thats not if most are being voted out and now these nations have more Conservative and Right leaning governments as a result. So perhaps this is the real concern of Christian politicians.

No, Christians support Trump because they will admit of no compromise on those issues. Even now, and at Trump's direction, the Christian faction in Congress blocks any legislation (even of policies they favor) which require bipartisan support.

Ok well maybe that shows how concerned they are. But I am skeptical of your interpretation of what Christians believe on these issue is. You have already misrepresented how they see immigration so I am skeptical of the rest of your representation of Christians beliefs on these issues.

 

[BCP1928]

The ideologues are more deceptive than that. They use nobel causes as Trojan horses to sneak theier agenda in. Institutional and political agents do they bidding so they are organised and have plenty of political power over the majority.

Political power which I covet. What are you talking about. Christians don't covet worldly power. Expressing ones beliefs and Gods Word is not coverting worldly power its actually denouncing it. Don't mistake Gods Word and Truth as political power. If you take it that way thats on you not me.

Political power is what the Christian Nationalist wing of the Republican party wants. Speaker of the House Johnson, for instance, is an avowed Christian nationalist. The rest would be satisfied with the power to make biblically based laws (as they call them) mostly about sex.

Of course these issues will concern Christians. Destroying Gods creation through greed is a Christian concern. Anything that leads to people suffering is a Christian concern.

Gun control is related to killing humans ie 'Thou shall not kill'. So minimising guns that kill is a Christian concern. Health care is related to human rights and poor health is inhumane so of course Christians will be concerned about poor treatment of people. Immigration well if this causes suffering to locals, if it brings in terror and crime its a concern to Christians.

Not sure what you mean "an attack on Christians". Christians should be concerned about human made global warming. Abusing the planet is like abusing your body which God says is a sin. Certainly abusing Gods creation is not very Christian.

I am not sure how you are equating these as an attack on Christians. Christians would be for gun control so how is gun control legislation an attack on Christians. Or do you mean the other way around where people are attacking Christian politicians for proposing gun controls.

By the way who are these Christian politicians as I sometimes watch Congress and see some of these debates and as far as I can see at least the Republicans debating who seem share similar beliefs and political views on these issues they make a lot of sense on these issues.

Ah I see where your coming from at least for immigration. Your conflating perhaps a Christian politician opposing say open borders and then conflating that as denying all genuine asslum seekers.

This is a fundemental mistake. I don't think any Christian is saying we should completely deny assylum seekers but rather have controls, some vetting of who comes in. But look what chaos this policy has caused.

If we look at all the Leftist nations who had open boarder policies over the last 10 years or so Germany, France, the Scandinavian nations they are now having massive problems with terrorism and gand violence. Crime has gone up and they are constantly trying to avert the next terror plot againt their own people.

So now we are seeing even the Left polititians calling to closed boarders as they see the nightmare their policies have released on their nations. Thats not if most are being voted out and now these nations have more Conservative and Right leaning governments as a result. So perhaps this is the real concern of Christian politicians.

Ok well maybe that shows how concerned they are. But I am skeptical of your interpretation of what Christians believe on these issue is. You have already misrepresented how they see immigration so I am skeptical of the rest of your representation of Christians beliefs on these issues.

What I know about the "Christian position" comes mainly from this forum and can be traced right back to conservative Christian talking heads sometimes just by pasting the post into a search engine. Read some of the threads. Global warming is a hoax to allow liberals to control how we use energy. Gun Control of any kind is the sharp end of a conspiracy to disarm Christian Patriots. And on and on. Look what you just wrote:
"The ideologues are more deceptive than that. They use nobel causes as Trojan horses to sneak their agenda in. Institutional and political agents do they bidding so they are organised and have plenty of political power over the majority." It's rubbish, just rubbish--and nothing whatever to do with Christianity or the Gospel of Christ.

 

[stevevw]

Political power is what the Christian Nationalist wing of the Republican party wants. Speaker of the House Johnson, for instance, is an avowed Christian nationalist. The rest would be satisfied with the power to make biblically based laws (as they call them) mostly about sex.

OK I don't know of the Christian Nationalist wing but they seem to be a minority just like say the extreme Left wing or the radical greens or gun supporting minority parties. They are not mainstream.

But heres the problem with your logic about these parties or sections are pushing a certain moral agenda. No matter which party they will have a moral basis for disagreeing with the Christian Nationalist on all these issues including sex. It may be the opposite or it may be different belief but its still a moral determination about that issue and a belief.

So in that sense all parties and sections are pushing something they want, something to impose of others with a different view and belief. For example Christians don't support adultery whereas say the moral or belief of some maybe adultery is ok as an expression of love or self. Thats also a moral and belief being pushed on people.

So you are complaining that certain Christian groups are pushing an agenda. Well the reality is everyone does the same in opposing that Christian view they are declaring another truth and belief to be forced on society. Thats why I say when we take God away some other metaphyical belief, ideology and morality will take its place.

What I know about the "Christian position" comes mainly from this forum and can be traced right back to conservative Christian talking heads sometimes just by pasting the post into a search engine. Read some of the threads. Global warming is a hoax to allow liberals to control how we use energy. Gun Control of any kind is the sharp end of a conspiracy to disarm Christian Patriots. And on and on. Look what you just wrote:
"The ideologues are more deceptive than that. They use nobel causes as Trojan horses to sneak their agenda in. Institutional and political agents do they bidding so they are organised and have plenty of political power over the majority." It's rubbish, just rubbish--and nothing whatever to do with Christianity or the Gospel of Christ.

What is rubbish, I don't understand your point. I am not saying there are no extreme Christian groups just like there are extreme Leftish groups trying to push their agendas and using nobel causes as a camouflage.

But if we want to single out these extreme groups we have to also point to all these groups which contribute to identity politics. But none of this changes the Truth about Gods Word or the facts and reality of what is actually going on.

I suggest you expand your knowledge about what Christians actually represent, what the Word of God says rather than using some extreme examples which may misrepresent and distort the truth.

For example Christianity is not about guns, about the right to bear arms. Christ actually said to put away the sword as His message was peaceful even if that meant being killed by the sword. Turn the other cheeck and all that. So already we have a Christian group misrepresenting Gods Word. Its easy to refute as false'

The same can be done with Leftist ideology which forms the basis for their agenda as has been done in recent times with Woke and DEI policies being exposed as based on ideology rather than fact. Even the idea as mentioned above about adultery and sex now being ok as a free expression of love or of self.

We can find factual evidence that sex outside marriage is detrimental of self, the other partner, the family and society as a whole. Under normal circumstances if this was any other issue we would be promoting monogomous marriages rather than being silent on this and promoting the opposite.

But we don't which shows that the Left or non Christians are actually pushing their own beliefs because they promote something that is actually unfounded, factually wrong and detrimental. So the belief has trumped the facts and reality the same as people accused Christians of doing.

 

[BCP1928]

OK I don't know of the Christian Nationalist wing but they seem to be a minority just like say the extreme Left wing or the radical greens or gun supporting minority parties. They are not mainstream.

But heres the problem with your logic about these parties or sections are pushing a certain moral agenda. No matter which party they will have a moral basis for disagreeing with the Christian Nationalist on all these issues including sex. It may be the opposite or it may be different belief but its still a moral determination about that issue and a belief.

So in that sense all parties and sections are pushing something they want, something to impose of others with a different view and belief. For example Christians don't support adultery whereas say the moral or belief of some maybe adultery is ok as an expression of love or self. Thats also a moral and belief being pushed on people.

So you are complaining that certain Christian groups are pushing an agenda. Well the reality is everyone does the same in opposing that Christian view they are declaring another truth and belief to be forced on society. Thats why I say when we take God away some other metaphyical belief, ideology and morality will take its place.

What is rubbish, I don't understand your point. I am not saying there are no extreme Christian groups just like there are extreme Leftish groups trying to push their agendas and using nobel causes as a camouflage.

But if we want to single out these extreme groups we have to also point to all these groups which contribute to identity politics. But none of this changes the Truth about Gods Word or the facts and reality of what is actually going on.

I suggest you expand your knowledge about what Christians actually represent, what the Word of God says rather than using some extreme examples which may misrepresent and distort the truth.

I am talking about a distinct set of conservative Christians here in the USA who support Donald Trump

For example Christianity is not about guns, about the right to bear arms. Christ actually said to put away the sword as His message was peaceful even if that meant being killed by the sword. Turn the other cheeck and all that. So already we have a Christian group misrepresenting Gods Word. Its easy to refute as false'

The same can be done with Leftist ideology which forms the basis for their agenda as has been done in recent times with Woke and DEI policies being exposed as based on ideology rather than fact. Even the idea as mentioned above about adultery and sex now being ok as a free expression of love or of self.

We can find factual evidence that sex outside marriage is detrimental of self, the other partner, the family and society as a whole. Under normal circumstances if this was any other issue we would be promoting monogomous marriages rather than being silent on this and promoting the opposite.

But we don't which shows that the Left or non Christians are actually pushing their own beliefs because they promote something that is actually unfounded, factually wrong and detrimental. So the belief has trumped the facts and reality the same as people accused Christians of doing.

Back to sex again. It's OK to have sex just for fun.

 

[stevevw]

I am talking about a distinct set of conservative Christians here in the USA who support Donald Trump

Ok but I don't think that destinct group represents all who suport Trump. There are many varied views and beliefs and even non Christians.

Back to sex again. It's OK to have sex just for fun.

Lol you brought it up again. I was just responding to your use of the word.

But that is the moral position that you hold, that other non Christians hold "It's OK to have sex just for fun". That is not a fact or a lived reality. So its a belief in every way as a Christian saying sex should be confined to marriage and long term committed relationships at the least.

So we have two opposing beliefs. The non Christians complain about the extreme beliefs of Christians in saying sex should be within marriage and yet espose their own extreme belief in saying sex should be have no restrictions.

I think this can be applied to just about every moral issue of human behaviour where we have two or more opposing beliefs about what is moral and best for society. Who says any particular belief is extreme. To even make that judgement is claiming a moral truth.

So when non Christians or the Left want to take the moral higher ground by criticising opposing beliefs and views they need to remember that in doing that they are not taking a neutral position on this but taking their own belief position for which they are every bit as willing to force others to conform to.

So how do we break this deadlock. We can refer to Christ actual Christian teaching. As Christ said "you are either for me or against me" and that He is the Truth. Theres no middle or neutral ground. You either stand for truth or oppose it.

 

[BCP1928]

Ok but I don't think that destinct group represents all who suport Trump. There are many varied views and beliefs and even non Christians.

Lol you brought it up again. I was just responding to your use of the word.

But that is the moral position that you hold, that other non Christians hold "It's OK to have sex just for fun". That is not a fact or a lived reality. So its a belief in every way as a Christian saying sex should be confined to marriage and long term committed relationships at the least.

So we have two opposing beliefs. The non Christians complain about the extreme beliefs of Christians in saying sex should be within marriage and yet espose their own extreme belief in saying sex should be have no restrictions.

I never said 'no restrictions.' Nobody does.

I think this can be applied to just about every moral issue of human behaviour where we have two or more opposing beliefs about what is moral and best for society. Who says any particular belief is extreme. To even make that judgement is claiming a moral truth.

So when non Christians or the Left want to take the moral higher ground by criticising opposing beliefs and views they need to remember that in doing that they are not taking a neutral position on this but taking their own belief position for which they are every bit as willing to force others to conform to.

What moral high ground? I thought you promoted divine command ethics rather than morality.

So how do we break this deadlock. We can refer to Christ actual Christian teaching. As Christ said "you are either for me or against me" and that He is the Truth. Theres no middle or neutral ground. You either stand for truth or oppose it.

Evangelicals are now rejecting 'liberal' teachings of Jesus

Christian devotees of former President Donald Trump are denouncing Bible verses attributed to Jesus as "weak," according to an evangelical leader.

www.newsweek.com

Why religion is at the heart of the gun control debate in the US

After yet another tragic mass school shooting in the US, gun control is once again the subject of debate. Studies show that white evangelical Protestants have higher rates of gun ownership and stronger opposition to gun control, but not all faith-based groups agree.

www.abc.net.au

 

[stevevw]

I never said 'no restrictions.' Nobody does.

They don't. I though the social norm was that you can do sex however you want so long as its between two consenting adults and doesn't harm anyone. Even then affairs are not frowned upon as they use to be. In fact they are presented as the norm. Other forms of sex like one night stands threesomes, seeing two lovers at the same time. Tinder is booming lol. This is a completely different social norm compared to the past. Much more liberal don't you think.

What moral high ground? I thought you promoted divine command ethics rather than morality.

When non Christians criticise Christian values or morals. You were just doing this a few posts ago when you were complaining about the extreme Christian politics.

Every time you complain about sex, about how Christian narration on sex is a problem or is foring their beliefs on others you are taking the moral high ground because you making a moral judgement about their beliefs and values like you know better. Otherwise why complain.

Evangelicals are now rejecting 'liberal' teachings of Jesus

Christian devotees of former President Donald Trump are denouncing Bible verses attributed to Jesus as "weak," according to an evangelical leader.

www.newsweek.com

Why religion is at the heart of the gun control debate in the US

After yet another tragic mass school shooting in the US, gun control is once again the subject of debate. Studies show that white evangelical Protestants have higher rates of gun ownership and stronger opposition to gun control, but not all faith-based groups agree.

www.abc.net.au

Interesting reads. I have never heard of this until now. We dfon't have such extreme groups. Well at least powerful ones that catch the attention of the media. Theres always been extreme Right wing groups including Christian ones.

Whats interesting is that these types of groups are rising on both sides. Its like how the IRA conflict started. Like how any civil conflict is cultivated. People and groups become more polarised along ideological lines and take increasingly extreme positions.

Its a constant tit for tat and we can see its progression in how political and ideological differences are now seen as dangerous and not just a different opinion. We can trace this with PC and Cancel Culture.

Its a bit similar to the fringe political groups of the 60's like the Black Panthers and the KKK. They take on more subversive and confrontational positions.

Jordan Peterson summed this up but I can remember exactly how he put it. But it was something along the lines of when a society doesn't allow people the middle ground, the freedom of speech and differences to exist together in the public square it inevitably moves to the fringes, the extremes.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Ok but I don't think that destinct group represents all who suport Trump. There are many varied views and beliefs and even non Christians.

Non-Christians in the Christian Nationalists? Hardly. The XNats have latched onto Trump as their vessel to bring about their (semi-)theocracy. Another tool they use is the repetitive whinging about the moral decay society to motivate Christian voters to their position that only applying "properly biblical" law can fix society.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So how do we break this deadlock. We can refer to Christ actual Christian teaching. As Christ said "you are either for me or against me" and that He is the Truth. Theres no middle or neutral ground. You either stand for truth or oppose it.

One should consider the overall context of a verse before reapplying it to some other, modern day political issue. To fail to do so might actually misconstrue the meaning of that verse and end up giving some impressionable people the wrong idea as to how they too should apply that verse.

 

[BCP1928]

They don't. I though the social norm was that you can do sex however you want so long as its between two consenting adults and doesn't harm anyone.

The social norm is that it should be legal. You are free to act in accord with your own morality as long as it doesn't harm anybody. Just as are people who think it is moral to "do sex however you want so long as its between two consenting adults and doesn't harm anyone."

Even then affairs are not frowned upon as they use to be. In fact they are presented as the norm. Other forms of sex like one night stands threesomes, seeing two lovers at the same time. Tinder is booming lol. This is a completely different social norm compared to the past. Much more liberal don't you think.

Cheating on one's partner has always gone on and has always been disapproved of.

When non Christians criticise Christian values or morals. You were just doing this a few posts ago when you were complaining about the extreme Christian politics.

What I am criticizing is not Christian morals. What I am criticizing is the departure of some Christians from Christian morals.

Every time you complain about sex, about how Christian narration on sex is a problem or is forcing their beliefs on others you are taking the moral high ground because you making a moral judgement about their beliefs and values like you know better. Otherwise why complain.

Because the "narrative" being delivered by you and certain politically active Christian sects is not found throughout Christianity, is contrary to actual scientific findings about human sexuality and is not considered moral by a large segment of society. Who has the "right" morality? I don't know, but yours does not necessarily merit special consideration nor does it deserve to be legally binding on non-Christian citizens of a secular state.

Interesting reads. I have never heard of this until now. We dfon't have such extreme groups. Well at least powerful ones that catch the attention of the media. Theres always been extreme Right wing groups including Christian ones.

Whats interesting is that these types of groups are rising on both sides. Its like how the IRA conflict started. Like how any civil conflict is cultivated. People and groups become more polarised along ideological lines and take increasingly extreme positions.

Except that those groups are at the helm in the GOP, but still only a fringe of the Democrats.

Its a constant tit for tat and we can see its progression in how political and ideological differences are now seen as dangerous and not just a different opinion. We can trace this with PC and Cancel Culture.

Its a bit similar to the fringe political groups of the 60's like the Black Panthers and the KKK. They take on more subversive and confrontational positions.

Jordan Peterson summed this up but I can remember exactly how he put it. But it was something along the lines of when a society doesn't allow people the middle ground, the freedom of speech and differences to exist together in the public square it inevitably moves to the fringes, the extremes.

What you don't get, and what any neutral observer can clearly see, is that the Right has been much more efficient and aggressive in denying the middle ground than the Left. They have "denied the middle ground" to people like Mitt Romney, Mike Pence, Liz Cheney, John McCain, all stalwart conservatives, Christians, but now RINOS whose voices Republicans refuse to hear.

 

[Hans Blaster]

One should consider the overall context of a verse before reapplying it to some other, modern day political issue. To fail to do so might actually misconstrue the meaning of that verse and end up giving some impressionable people the wrong idea as to how they too should apply that verse.

But that would take all the fun out of using (at most) one sentence to make a point. It is completely alien to my experience in religion. We'd either read a whole section, or someone would do the analysis for us and read it as official dogma from a chair. I was well into adulthood before I knew the phrase "chapter and verse" referred to this style of scriptural quotation by coordinates.

 

[dlamberth]

So how do we break this deadlock. We can refer to Christ actual Christian teaching. As Christ said "you are either for me or against me" and that He is the Truth. Theres no middle or neutral ground. You either stand for truth or oppose it.

What I understand as the Truth of Christ is not the same as what's being pressed by Christian Nationalism. The Truth of Christ, IMHO, can be found in the Heart of Christ. What I experience when sitting in the Heart of Christ is infinite compassion, feeding the poor, helping the least of us with empathy and compassion and with a trajectory of service to those in need. These are Heart Centered activity's that have a way of making us more human as Human Beings. That's also how God is made a reality in our lives. That's the Truth of Christ where I find myself standing with Him. From what I see, Christian Nationalism is more about power than anything Christ related. And that leads directly to theocracy, which is never a good thing.

 

[stevevw]

One should consider the overall context of a verse before reapplying it to some other, modern day political issue. To fail to do so might actually misconstrue the meaning of that verse and end up giving some impressionable people the wrong idea as to how they too should apply that verse.

Fair enough I get what you mean. I just think much of what is going on when we peel back the culture wars and political ideologies that its actually spiritual. People keep forgetting that, devaluing the spiritual aspect.

Thats because none of it makes sense, there is no logic and reality to the culture wars going on. The level of feeling and angst is well beyond what would be expected if it were just a political or ideological difference.

More specifically the red flags for me are how religion in general but how Christianity in particular is being targeted and the level of hate towards Christians and Jews coming out in modern society.

Actually its not even religion perse as people are willing to accept other religions and beliefs. Its just Christians they hate for some reason. It provokes more reaction even more than Islamists.

It is literally getting to the point where being for Christ is getting hard to do and even dangerous which literally puts people on one side or the other.

 

[stevevw]

The social norm is that it should be legal. You are free to act in accord with your own morality as long as it doesn't harm anybody. Just as are people who think it is moral to "do sex however you want so long as its between two consenting adults and doesn't harm anyone."

I think social norm represents much more than what is legal as far as what is conducive of a healthy society. I mean the social norm is that porn is available without restrictions for potentially anyone. Sure parents can set filters but out in the public square theres no restrictions. Even for adoslecents and young adults its unhealthy being so easily available in that its sets an unreal idea and expectation around sex and relationships.

Then theres the celeb role models who promote unreal ideas around sex in the media and the unlimited access to all sorts of crazy stuff, violence, sicko stuff that infliltrates into young peoples minds making them mentally ill and suicidal. How is that good. It may all be legal but its sure screwing people up.

Cheating on one's partner has always gone on and has always been disapproved of.

No it hasn't. In fact there were laws in our distant past that forbid adultery. Then it remained a strong social norm for a long time. Even sex before marriage wasa taboo. Divorce was rare and marriages lasted a lifetime.

Now marriage and long term monogamous relationships are a dying breed and as a result we see than carnage and chaos this has created. The fact is marriage actually makes people more healthy and better behaved. Its the foundation for the family and the family is the foundation of any strong society.

That marriage and families, fatherhood has completely broken down should be a massive concern. But it seems for those who promote post modernist ideologies its a price they are willing to pay for individual freedoms.

What I am criticizing is not Christian morals. What I am criticizing is the departure of some Christians from Christian morals.

I am 100% behind you on that one. But as I pointed out we should be able to level the same amount of criticizism at any ideological belief that is promoting extreme and unreal ideas and beliefs.

Just because some of the ideological beliefs about how society should be ordered don't have religious garb about them doesn't mean they are not motivated by unfounded metaphysical beliefs.

Because the "narrative" being delivered by you and certain politically active Christian sects is not found throughout Christianity, is contrary to actual scientific findings about human sexuality and is not considered moral by a large segment of society.

First, "not considered moral" is not based on science so your conflating two different things. It may be that what a society considers moral is actually immoral as we have seen with many societies like the Nazis or even strong socialism like in Russia.

Second what exactly is my narrative. How do I know you are not assuming what I am saying based on your own preconcieved beliefs and assumption. From the examples you are giving these seem more minority Christian ideas and yet I have stated time and time again that this is not my belief and even condemned it.

So what exactly do you think my narrative is. So far your misrepresenting it and thats not a good start.

Who has the "right" morality? I don't know,

We can know. I mentioned this that we are rational and moral creatures and have the knowledge and ability to derive the moral truth. Its already in us. Its the convergence of objective reality and lived reality. Its the culmination of our lived experience throughout history from which we derive these truths and morals from.

We created Human Rights from the horrors of war, the shock of how evil humans can be. It scared us to the point that we engraved these truths in unwritten law like the laws of physics every bit as real and any solid object. Part of that lived reality is that without some reality outside and above us that sets truth and moral standards we are doomed as we cannot ourselves be capable of moral truth.

But right now that is what we have been reduced to. Moral relativity, self referential truths, humans are the gods of truth and morals and there is not objectively tru moral like laws.

but yours does not necessarily merit special consideration nor does it deserve to be legally binding on non-Christian citizens of a secular state.

If thats the case then why are certain social norms that influence policy and law and underpinned by certain moral values being favored over others. Why are certain nobel causes being used to smuggling in ideological beliefs and not based on facts and reality. It seems hypocritical.

Except that those groups are at the helm in the GOP, but still only a fringe of the Democrats.

OK I thought you were saying they were more a extreme arm of the Right. Now your saying the Right generally is an extremist party. Thats a big call. I am not sure that stands up to scrutiny.

It may be that what you percieve is extreme may just be a normal and commonsense reality that has been twisted by the Left into something extreme. That is what usually happens from both sides.

What you don't get, and what any neutral observer can clearly see, is that the Right has been much more efficient and aggressive in denying the middle ground than the Left. They have "denied the middle ground" to people like Mitt Romney, Mike Pence, Liz Cheney, John McCain, all stalwart conservatives, Christians, but now RINOS whose voices Republicans refuse to hear.

Once again I hav'nt followed US politics in enough detail to know this is true or not and that your interpretation is not biased. Both sides enage in cancelling each other and trying to sidestep the issues and truth. Cerainly politics has become more partisan.

But fundementally I disagree and I think its the Right that are more willing to talk, to discuss the issues with all cards on the table. Thats because primarily they have nothing to hide. Many of these issues are the same basic issues that everyone agreed with in the past. Its just that the Left have moved away from them and not the Right.

The fact that generally the vast majority of society was Christian or had some belief in God and supported these values in the not too distant past shows that the middle ground was based on these values and since society has moved away from this thats mostly to Leftist ideology shows that its the Left who are out of line and not the right.

'Thats not saying the Right are also now out of step. They are falling into the same game ideological thinking and both sides are now engaging in identity politics and society as a whole is less Christian and more secular in its beliefs and thinking which feeds the chaos.

Its history repeating itself. When society breaks down and people become more polarised all the extremes come out on the edges which eventaully become the middle. So the extreme Christian Right are like the Church in the past once again pushing extreme ideas.

But now its not just the church but 101 other extremist groups like antisemetist, Wokist, Trans and gender ideologues, many new terror groups even on home soil, new political groups like ANTIFA, BLM, Extinction Rebellion ect ect etc etc.

 

[stevevw]

What I understand as the Truth of Christ is not the same as what's being pressed by Christian Nationalism. The Truth of Christ, IMHO, can be found in the Heart of Christ. What I experience when sitting in the Heart of Christ is infinite compassion, feeding the poor, helping the least of us with empathy and compassion and with a trajectory of service to those in need. These are Heart Centered activity's that have a way of making us more human as Human Beings. That's also how God is made a reality in our lives. That's the Truth of Christ where I find myself standing with Him. From what I see, Christian Nationalism is more about power than anything Christ related. And that leads directly to theocracy, which is never a good thing.

100% agree. As I mentioned earlier if we want to judge Christians then look to the many charities and individuals quietly working in the background of all this white noise on Christianity actually living examples of Christ. They have been their all the time from the get go but smothered by politics and power.

But I think the greatest Christian truth from Christ teachings that relates to what is happening today with culture wars is the idea of 'turning the other cheek and loving your enermies'. This is the most powerful idea that can change things.

This is not about weakness in the way people usually think as in allowing people to walk over you or not showing courage. It has a real psychological effect on the dynamics of human relations when genuinely applied.

I can relate it to the IRA conflict where there was a continual tit for tat revenge killing until one day one side said enough is enough and did not react in kind. That opened the door for a new era in relative peace.

But you are right that the Sermon on the Mount and the parable of the Good Samaritan are the basis for how we should live. Even to the point of self denial of what the world may think is meaningful in giving your life in doing Gods Will whatever that may be. Christ didn't just say help the Samaritan as necessary but go beyond even giving the shirt off your own back.

If there was more of this we would be in a much better place.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Fair enough I get what you mean. I just think much of what is going on when we peel back the culture wars and political ideologies that its actually spiritual. People keep forgetting that, devaluing the spiritual aspect.

Thats because none of it makes sense, there is no logic and reality to the culture wars going on. The level of feeling and angst is well beyond what would be expected if it were just a political or ideological difference.

More specifically the red flags for me are how religion in general but how Christianity in particular is being targeted and the level of hate towards Christians and Jews coming out in modern society.

Actually its not even religion perse as people are willing to accept other religions and beliefs. Its just Christians they hate for some reason. It provokes more reaction even more than Islamists.

It is literally getting to the point where being for Christ is getting hard to do and even dangerous which literally puts people on one side or the other.

I've always been under the impression that 'being a Christian' in today's world could be fraught with political tensions. I'm not surprised that these tensions are present and seem to be growing, really. What I am surprised at is how many fellow Christians express surprise or even panic about the way society, and the world, is changing today.

For those who hold to some sort of Dominionist or Charismatic 'Kingdom Now' theology, I know the growing political tensions look like an incursion upon what has been deemed by them to be "their Christian rights and their Christian nation" (i.e. a perspective held by a number of folks here in the U.S.).

While I don't hold a dogmatic view on eschatology or politics, some of the difference in my expectancy about ongoing tensions and what to do about them may be due to my own Premillennial and Historicized leanings in eschatology which shade my understanding of World History and World Politics. What we have today is, I think, a further permutation of various confluences in social thought which have been coming together for the last three or four centuries. But so many other people seem to think it's a "sudden onslaught" of moral upset. It's not.

 

[BCP1928]

Fair enough I get what you mean. I just think much of what is going on when we peel back the culture wars and political ideologies that its actually spiritual. People keep forgetting that, devaluing the spiritual aspect.

Thats because none of it makes sense, there is no logic and reality to the culture wars going on. The level of feeling and angst is well beyond what would be expected if it were just a political or ideological difference.

More specifically the red flags for me are how religion in general but how Christianity in particular is being targeted and the level of hate towards Christians and Jews coming out in modern society.

Actually its not even religion perse as people are willing to accept other religions and beliefs. Its just Christians they hate for some reason. It provokes more reaction even more than Islamists.

It is literally getting to the point where being for Christ is getting hard to do and even dangerous which literally puts people on one side or the other.

What do you care? You're not for Christ, you're for Western Christian culture.

 

[stevevw]

What do you care? You're not for Christ, you're for Western Christian culture.

There you go again misrepresenting my position.