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On Trump's 2025 Plan, if he gets re-elected as president

ViaCrucis

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They'll exist the same as they existed after the last four years. Whenever I ask what exactly Trump did that was so terrible as president the first time around, I hear things like he never completed the wall and he issued tariffs. Never a fulfillment any of the doom prophecies made back in 2016, that are being recycled now.

The MAGA political infrastructure didn't exist in 2016.

Project 2025 didn't exist in 2016.

MAGA didn't own the Republican party in 2016.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Servus

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The MAGA political infrastructure didn't exist in 2016.

Project 2025 didn't exist in 2016.

MAGA didn't own the Republican party in 2016.

-CryptoLutheran
I heard nothing but complaints about Trump's infrastructure consisting of racist nazis from the beginning. They went on and on about how evil and oppressive Pence was going to be. There was even the conspiracy theory that Trump planned on bowing out to make Pence president. That was their plan all along. Or Putin's plan because he was secretly in charge of it all. There's no way I could overexaggerate how hyperbolic it was.
 
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expos4ever

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If Trump had the vote counting infrastructure Joe had he could have found those votes!
You are, of course, not answering the question.

And readers will know this.

Let me take this step-by-step. What, exactly, is Mr. Trump trying to achieve based on these words of his from the transcript of that famous call?:

So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.

Look, we need only 11,000 votes.

So what are we going to do here folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.

Because all we have to do Cleta is find 11,000-plus votes
 
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Stephen3141

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It is good that Christians are thinking about these multiple issues.

Trump and Biden are NOT the candidates that I had wanted the 2 political
parties to put forward. But, these are the 2 candidates that American
voters have to deal with, given the party choices.

It is true that Trump has not already lived out the 2025 Plan.
But the radical language that Trump uses, is compatible with the
tearing down of the federal government, which is a goal of VERY
radical groups.

Also, the language that Trump uses has already judged the federal government
as being illegitimate, completely corrupt, and in need of (basically) massive
replacement. The problem I have with this CONCLUSION, is that it bypasses
the fair rule of law in America.

There is a huge problem with a political candidate who already pronounces that
the existing fair rule of law in America is completely corrupt. But has not gathered
evidence for that conclusion, and presented it in courts of law. Almost all of the
lawsuits that Trump has filed, have been rejected, because they are hearsay, or
just ridiculous claims without evidence. Trump does not know the difference between
conspiracy theories, and evidence.

Note that there is the builtin problem that Trump claims to be a patriot,
and an upholder of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and the rule
of law, YET he denies the validity of all court rulings that go against
his personal preferences.

I think that Donald Trump should appreciate the deep and wise foundational
documents of the United States, and should work within America's fair rule
of law. Donald has not shown any ability to do this. I this makes me
suspicious that he could ever do this.
---------- ----------

A point that comes up multiple times in this thread discussion, is that
although Trump makes strident and radical assertions, he has not ACTED
on them, yet. Supporters of Donald Trump, may think that this is a valid
argument, that he should not be ideologically rejected by American voters.

But this argument, itself, bypasses the worth and truth of the foundational
documents of the American Republic, that assert grand and noble ideals
that this country has struggled to attain.

It is not a compliment, that Donald Trump has made radical statements
that go against these great founding principles of the American Republic,
but THAT should not be held against him, BECAUSE he has never lived
out these radical assertions. What sort of great ideal, does that show?
At best, that is an argument that Donald Trump is a coward, who wants
other people to murder his political opponents, but who does not want
to get involved in this lawless violence himself.

Again, I would remind American citizens of the topic of legends, being made by the
media, and taking on a life of their own on social media sites. Like the legend of
the shooters at Columbine high school, which asserts that they were noble kids
who were persecuted and outcasts, and who finally snapped and sought revenge
on the people who were persecuting them. (This is what Trump is doing.) But,
in the case of the Columbine massacre, this legend is completely false. All the
evidence goes against this interpretation. (Yet there have been about 50 school shooters
who have acted out public acts of violence, and appealed to the Columbine shooters
as their "inspiration".)

It does not matter much that Donald Trump cannot find sound evidence that he is
a poor, persecuted, man, who is a victim of a "Deep State" conspiracy. It does
not matter that this "legend" of Donald Trump is completely false. There are
internet social media fans who will believe the legend/conspiracy theory, and
who try to live lawless violence, appealing to this legend as a justification
of their violent "Punisher" vigilante "justice". Just as there have been 50
violent school shooters who have appealed to a completely FALSE legend
about the Columbine school shooters.
---------- ----------

But as Christians, we need to be VERY conscious that the Bible presents
the view that we live in a shared reality (not a bunch of relative, individual
perceptions), and that "You shall not lie" refers to a fixed standard that
God has, that takes into account sound evidence from our shared reality.

The conspiracy theories DO NOT DESCRIBE our shared reality.
Conspiracy theories cannot find the sound evidence, to demonstrate
their own accuracy, in describing this shared reality. Christians who
choose to believe legends/conspiracy theories, are living in a lie.
They are constantly projecting false representations of reality.
And this is incompatible with the Christian faith.
 
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To be more direct, all Biden has done is insist on the rule of of law and political norms based on civility.
The Biden administration has done anything but administer the law fairly and equally. The DOJ is a joke as related to blind justice.

Just one example lets look at why Steve Bannon is about to serve prison time and then look at all of those on the left who have committed the same crime not even charged.
 
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You are, of course, not answering the question.

And readers will know this.

Let me take this step-by-step. What, exactly, is Mr. Trump trying to achieve based on these words of his from the transcript of that famous call?:

So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.

Look, we need only 11,000 votes.

So what are we going to do here folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.

Because all we have to do Cleta is find 11,000-plus votes
And the crime in those words is exactly what?
 
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FireDragon76

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The Biden administration has done anything but administer the law fairly and equally. The DOJ is a joke as related to blind justice.

This is just doublespeak. Saying the DOJ is a joke is just an empty assertion.

Just one example lets look at why Steve Bannon in about to serve prison time and then look at all of those on the left who have committed the same crime not even charged.

Steve Bannon was convicted of contempt of Congress for refusing to cooperate in an investigation of the attacks on the US Capitol. That's not analogous to anything Democrats have done.
 
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expos4ever

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And the crime in those words is exactly what?
I do not know the letter of the law, but when a sitting President pressures an election official to "find votes", that almost certainly has to be illegal.

And if it is not illegal, it certainly should be.
 
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ViaCrucis

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And the crime in those words is exactly what?

Is election fraud criminal? Yes or no?

Is pressuring someone to change the vote count election fraud? Yes or no?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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I do not know the letter of the law, but when a sitting President pressures an election official to "find votes", that almost certainly has to be illegal.

And if it is not illegal, it certainly should be.
Trumps words according to your post:

"So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.

Look, we need only 11,000 votes.

So what are we going to do here folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.

Because all we have to do Cleta is find 11,000-plus votes"

Tell us exactly where the "pressure" was?

Just like the mysterious moving target of a secondary crime Trump was allegedly trying to cover up you cannot name the actually crime here. That is because there was no crime. Just because you think it should be illegal to say what Trump said does not make not so.


There were actually violations of Georgia election law by Fulton County. There was no actual law violated by the words Trump spoke.

 
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Is election fraud criminal? Yes or no?
Yes
Is pressuring someone to change the vote count election fraud? Yes or no?

-CryptoLutheran
There was no pressure to change the vote count and absolutely no request from Trump to violate Georgia election law and manufacture illeagal votes. That is a made up fallacy contrived to charge Trump with something to INTERFERE with the upcoming election.
 
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This is just doublespeak. Saying the DOJ is a joke is just an empty assertion.

No joking matter the current DOJ has a two tiered system of justice one for conservatives and another for everyone else
Steve Bannon was convicted of contempt of Congress for refusing to cooperate in an investigation of the attacks on the US Capitol. That's not analogous to anything Democrats have done.
So was Merrick Garland held in contempt of congress! Was he arrested will that ever make it to trial in a court of law ?

Contempt of congress is just that, there are not degrees of contempt that allow liberals to avoid prosecution, but this joke of a DOJ does not operate fairly.
 
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It is good that Christians are thinking about these multiple issues.

Trump and Biden are NOT the candidates that I had wanted the 2 political
parties to put forward. But, these are the 2 candidates that American
voters have to deal with, given the party choices.

It is true that Trump has not already lived out the 2025 Plan.
But the radical language that Trump uses, is compatible with the
tearing down of the federal government, which is a goal of VERY
radical groups.

Also, the language that Trump uses has already judged the federal government
as being illegitimate, completely corrupt, and in need of (basically) massive
replacement. The problem I have with this CONCLUSION, is that it bypasses
the fair rule of law in America.

There is a huge problem with a political candidate who already pronounces that
the existing fair rule of law in America is completely corrupt. But has not gathered
evidence for that conclusion, and presented it in courts of law. Almost all of the
lawsuits that Trump has filed, have been rejected, because they are hearsay, or
just ridiculous claims without evidence. Trump does not know the difference between
conspiracy theories, and evidence.

Note that there is the builtin problem that Trump claims to be a patriot,
and an upholder of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and the rule
of law, YET he denies the validity of all court rulings that go against
his personal preferences.

I think that Donald Trump should appreciate the deep and wise foundational
documents of the United States, and should work within America's fair rule
of law. Donald has not shown any ability to do this. I this makes me
suspicious that he could ever do this.
---------- ----------

A point that comes up multiple times in this thread discussion, is that
although Trump makes strident and radical assertions, he has not ACTED
on them, yet. Supporters of Donald Trump, may think that this is a valid
argument, that he should not be ideologically rejected by American voters.

But this argument, itself, bypasses the worth and truth of the foundational
documents of the American Republic, that assert grand and noble ideals
that this country has struggled to attain.

It is not a compliment, that Donald Trump has made radical statements
that go against these great founding principles of the American Republic,
but THAT should not be held against him, BECAUSE he has never lived
out these radical assertions. What sort of great ideal, does that show?
At best, that is an argument that Donald Trump is a coward, who wants
other people to murder his political opponents, but who does not want
to get involved in this lawless violence himself.

Again, I would remind American citizens of the topic of legends, being made by the
media, and taking on a life of their own on social media sites. Like the legend of
the shooters at Columbine high school, which asserts that they were noble kids
who were persecuted and outcasts, and who finally snapped and sought revenge
on the people who were persecuting them. (This is what Trump is doing.) But,
in the case of the Columbine massacre, this legend is completely false. All the
evidence goes against this interpretation. (Yet there have been about 50 school shooters
who have acted out public acts of violence, and appealed to the Columbine shooters
as their "inspiration".)

It does not matter much that Donald Trump cannot find sound evidence that he is
a poor, persecuted, man, who is a victim of a "Deep State" conspiracy. It does
not matter that this "legend" of Donald Trump is completely false. There are
internet social media fans who will believe the legend/conspiracy theory, and
who try to live lawless violence, appealing to this legend as a justification
of their violent "Punisher" vigilante "justice". Just as there have been 50
violent school shooters who have appealed to a completely FALSE legend
about the Columbine school shooters.
---------- ----------

But as Christians, we need to be VERY conscious that the Bible presents
the view that we live in a shared reality (not a bunch of relative, individual
perceptions), and that "You shall not lie" refers to a fixed standard that
God has, that takes into account sound evidence from our shared reality.

The conspiracy theories DO NOT DESCRIBE our shared reality.
Conspiracy theories cannot find the sound evidence, to demonstrate
their own accuracy, in describing this shared reality. Christians who
choose to believe legends/conspiracy theories, are living in a lie.
They are constantly projecting false representations of reality.
And this is incompatible with the Christian faith.
For someone who does not think Biden is a great candidate either you spent a lot of time and words trashing Trump and nothing on the short comings of Biden.

Trump is not or the destruction of government just the rooting out of the actual corruption you ignored in your analysis.
 
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expos4ever

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Trumps words according to your post:

"So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.

Look, we need only 11,000 votes.

So what are we going to do here folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.

Because all we have to do Cleta is find 11,000-plus votes"

Tell us exactly where the "pressure" was?
I think anyone trying to suggest Trump is not pressuring a government official here has nowhere to go.

You appear to think that the fact that Mr Trump never explicitly demands that these extra votes be found means that he was not exerting pressure.

I suggest no reasonable person with say that this is not inappropriate pressure to alter the outcome of an election, something which should be a serious crime.

I am now going to ask you a question but I believe you will not be able to answer. If Mr Trump was not attempting to exert pressure on this official, exactly what was he doing?

To participate in a fair discussion, you cannot avoid this question simply by turning it around and asking "where is the pressure?"

Remember, Mr Trump is trying to accomplish something when he asks for 11,000 votes. You are, I suggest, obliged to offer an explanation as to what that something is. And I suggest there is no plausible answer that will not undermine your position on this.

But we will see.
 
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I think anyone trying to suggest Trump is not pressuring a government official here has nowhere to go.

You appear to think that the fact that Mr Trump never explicitly demands that these extra votes be found means that he was not exerting pressure.

I suggest no reasonable person with say that this is not inappropriate pressure to alter the outcome of an election, something which should be a serious crime.

I am now going to ask you a question but I believe you will not be able to answer. If Mr Trump was not attempting to exert pressure on this official, exactly what was he doing?

To participate in a fair discussion, you cannot avoid this question simply by turning it around and asking "where is the pressure?"

Remember, Mr Trump is trying to accomplish something when he asks for 11,000 votes. You are, I suggest, obliged to offer an explanation as to what that something is. And I suggest there is no plausible answer that will not undermine your position on this.

But we will see.
There is a plausible answer but your disdain for Trump will not allow you to consider it. Given the amount of mail in ballots and the issues with counting votes, it is very reasonable that a request to “find” votes is not a request to cheat. The fact is that a made up weak case in Georgia is falling apart because of the corruption in the DA’s office and election board. Georgia oversight panel ruminates on 2020 election hiccups as 2024 showdowns loom • Georgia Recorder
 
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eclipsenow

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The Australian ABC's flagship program 4 Corners is running a 2 part special on Project 2025. We're horrified at what we saw just in Part 1 on Monday. Gobsmacked! Part 2 comes out next week. Both parts should be essential viewing for any American to get what might be a more objective overseas view of what might be about to happen in your country.


Here is an extended interview with the Director of Project 2025, Paul Dans.

 
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Steve Bannon was convicted of contempt of Congress for refusing to cooperate in an investigation of the attacks on the US Capitol. That's not analogous to anything Democrats have done.
Contempt of congress is illegal. What they are investigating is not a factor.
 
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Stephen3141

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Note that I say to Christians, that we have a moral-ethical OUGHT to be
careful about the slogans that politicians use.

Many of these slogans, do not really define what the speaker means.
And, hearing only a couple of these slogans at one time, DOES NOT MEAN
THAT WE HAVE A GOOD OVERALL VIEW OF WHAT THE CANDIDATE INTENDS.

If we take a couple dozen slogans that Donald Trump (or any other politician)
has used, THEN we can piece together a horizon of thoughts, that is pretty
alarming to me, and many Evangelicals.

If we take the 2025 Plan as a detailed working out of Donald Trump's worldview,
then we can see all sorts of intended actions that do not represent the intents
of the writings of the founding fathers of America.
---------- ----------

There are other alarming considerations.

1 Donald Trump does not seem to be driven to be consistent, or persistent,
in what he asserts. He changes what he asserts, regularly, to please the
response of American citizens. This is incompatible with a Christian view
of truth, and bearing false witness.

2 Donald Trump seems to consider "truth" or "reality", as whatever he is
asserting. This is a view of our shared reality, and truth, that is incompatible
with Christianity.

3 Donald Trump seems to like the emotional, not particularly logical style
of rhetorical presentation, that the Protestant Fundamentalists like. It is a
language of asserting extremes, and erasing all shades of meaning or reality
that could exist between extremes. This is common among groups that
regularly assert all sorts of extreme views, whether religious or non-religious,
and whether Christian or non-Christian. This language of extremes, is not
objective. It is a language of emotions, and anti-intellectualism. It is a language
of far right white supremecists, and eugenics, and jihadist Islamist groups.
It is a language that separates personal responsibility, from what an individual
asserts. And this is incompatible with Christianity.

Especially point (2), means that Trump's extreme rhetoric is compatible with
all sorts of conspiracy theories, and gossip, and slander, that is not proven
with sound evidence, and could actually be UNPROVABLE (unfalsifiable).

When the characteristics of Trump's assertions, AND the collection of all
his strident and radical slogans are taken together, the result is a worldview and
a view of reality and truth, that is terrifically alarming to me, and many
orthodox Christians.

Whether or not Trump publicly embraces, or distances himself from the 2025
Plan, is not my most immediate consideration. Trump will say whatever he thinks
will get him elected. Then, he can "change his mind" and embrace publicly
the goals in the 2025 Plan. (This is what the MAGA political candidates in Arizona
did). And Trump's MAGA supporters tend to be anti-intellectual, and will believe
whatever explanation/conspiracy theory Trump places before them.

If you took the trajectory of Trump's rhetoric, and translated it into the Middle
East and an Islamic culture, you would have a radical Islamic jihadist group,
that justified itself in forming lynch mobs and killing everyone who disagreed
with their radical Islamic views. If you translated this type of rhetoric into
racial vocabulary of the Baltic states, then you would get a Serbian genocidal
group that justified killing all Muslims.

Unfortunately, you have to think carefully about the Epistemology of Trump, and
his strident assertions, to see this trajectory. And a lot of Americans, can't be bothered
with doing this careful thought.

(Note that I am addressing the assertions of Donald Trump. That does not mean
that I do not have problems with the far left assertions of the Democratic Party.)
 
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bèlla

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Note that I say to Christians, that we have a moral-ethical OUGHT to be
careful about the slogans that politicians use.

You're right about the slogans that's why I debunked the points. They're lies or half-truths.

Whether or not Trump publicly embraces, or distances himself from the 2025
Plan, is not my most immediate consideration. Trump will say whatever he thinks
will get him elected. Then, he can "change his mind" and embrace publicly
the goals in the 2025 Plan. (This is what the MAGA political candidates in Arizona
did). And Trump's MAGA supporters tend to be anti-intellectual, and will believe
whatever explanation/conspiracy theory Trump places before them.

Exactly. I just posted about the plan on the christian politics thread. More lies.

Unfortunately, you have to think carefully about the Epistemology of Trump, and
his strident assertions, to see this trajectory. And a lot of Americans, can't be bothered
with doing this careful thought.

Emotionalism relies on feelings and despises thought. Once the intended begins to think they might see the holes in their beliefs. It's best to play it safe.

There's an informative documentary on Netflix the majority would be bettered by viewing.

~bella

IMG_0439.jpeg
 
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